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Old 30-Apr-2019, 5:14 PM   #1
JoeAZ
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"Reception at 180 degrees apart."


Where I live, zip code 86301, we have a group of 1 Kw translators
on Mt. Francis, 6 miles away, which serve parts of Prescott. About
20 miles away, there are another group of translators, one "full"
power VHF station atop Mingus Mtn. They are nearly 180 degrees
apart. Additionally, we have NBC from Flagstaff at 60 miles, a
weak, 2 edge signal, on Rf 22 and another station at 60 miles on
Rf 13. They are also about 180 degrees apart from Mt. Francis.

Trying a 4 Bay UHF antenna without any reflector yielded some of
the Mt. Francis translators, some of the Mingus translators, KAZT
Prescott on Rf 7 but not NBC on Rf 22 or Rf 13. Not a good situation.

Trying 2, 4 Bay UHF antennas pointing at Mingus and Mt Francis
with both interconnected, yielded worse results. The antennas
were mounted about 5 feet apart but on the same mast. I lost more
stations than without any reflector.

Solution: I then pointed a single 4 Bay UHF antenna at Mingus,
connected to ONE television. I received everything from Mingus,
save Rf 6 plus I received NBC on Rf 22 and Rf 13 as well.
Eventually I came up with the following, I mounted another 4 bay
antenna directly behind, on the same mast, as the one pointed at Mingus Mtn. I lost NBC on Rf 22 but no other stations.
Finally, I kept the 4 Bay UHF antenna pointed at Mingus and put
a UHF 2 Bay directly behind the 4 Bay, pointed at Mt. Francis.
Voila!!!!!!!!! I got everything from Mt. Francis and everything
from Mingus Mtn PLUS NBC on Rf 22 and Rf 13 as well.
I then connected the 2 bay antenna to see how it performed with
the 4 Bay at it's back. Received all Mt Francis, all Mingus Mtn,
plus NBC on Rf 22. It is weak but consistent.
Moving either antenna up or down, changes things quite dramatically
and changing the angles also provides some changes to reception.
Finally, I found an old FM antenna, removed the directors and
reflectors, keeping just the driven element. That antenna serves to
get NBC on Rf 6 also on Mingus Mtn but only .5 Kwatts ERP.
The Mingus 4 Bay and modified FM antenna are interconnected using
an UVSJ. I get everything I need and then some, with near perfect
consistency. I even get some Flagstaff and Williams translators at
times!!!!!!

Hope this thread helps somebody!!!!

Last edited by JoeAZ; 30-Apr-2019 at 7:47 PM.
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Old 30-Apr-2019, 6:17 PM   #2
bobsgarage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeAZ View Post
Hope this thread helps somebody!!!!
I read your post. I'll probably have to read it again, probably a few times.

It might help others for sure, you should submit a picture. Or two. Maybe even a diagram. How did you combine all those antennas ?

Thanks for sharing.

Last edited by bobsgarage; 1-May-2019 at 1:02 AM.
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Old 30-Apr-2019, 8:05 PM   #3
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeAZ View Post
Finally, I kept the 4 Bay UHF antenna pointed at Mingus and put a UHF 2 Bay directly behind the 4 Bay, pointed at Mt. Francis.
Voila!!!!!!!!! I got everything from Mt. Francis and everything
from Mingus Mtn PLUS NBC on Rf 22 and Rf 13 as well.
I then connected the 2 bay antenna to see how it performed with the 4 Bay at it's back. Received all Mt Francis, all Mingus Mtn, plus NBC on Rf 22. It is weak but consistent.
Interesting setup. I read it a few times, but also don't quite get it yet. A diagram and photos would help.

This map and TVFool report are based on your description:



http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90388502dba84a

Please post your TVFool report. I'm not certain how close my guess is.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg JoeAZTVFmapEstimated.JPG (178.9 KB, 404 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 30-Apr-2019 at 8:37 PM.
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Old 30-Apr-2019, 11:00 PM   #4
JoeAZ
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Yes, I do understand my description is hard to comprehend.

On a single mast, I have a 4 bay UHF antenna pointed at Mingus Mtn/Flagstaff
which is connected to a modified FM antenna which helps receive Rf 6 NBC,
KAZT Rf 7, KFPH Flagstaff, all of which are in the same direction and K11LC-D
on Mt Francis, the opposite direction. Connection is made with a UVSJ to ONE
television in my living room.

On the same mast, I have a two bay UHF antenna pointed at Mt Francis, connected
to a television in the master bedroom. The two bay antenna is back to back to the
4 bay UHF antenna/connected to the same mast. The two UHF antennas are NOT
interconnected in any direct way. The modified FM antenna is only connected to the
living room tv via a UVSJ.

The two UHF antennas though not connected, are somehow able to work together
to improve reception. Hope this helps. I'll post photos as soon as I get a chance. Street address: 1348 Winfield Circle
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Old 1-May-2019, 12:59 AM   #5
bobsgarage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeAZ View Post
Yes, I do understand my description is hard to comprehend.

On a single mast, I have a 4 bay UHF antenna pointed at Mingus Mtn/Flagstaff
which is connected to a modified FM antenna which helps receive Rf 6 NBC,
KAZT Rf 7, KFPH Flagstaff, all of which are in the same direction and K11LC-D
on Mt Francis, the opposite direction. Connection is made with a UVSJ to ONE
television in my living room.

On the same mast, I have a two bay UHF antenna pointed at Mt Francis, connected
to a television in the master bedroom. The two bay antenna is back to back to the
4 bay UHF antenna/connected to the same mast. The two UHF antennas are NOT
interconnected in any direct way. The modified FM antenna is only connected to the
living room tv via a UVSJ.

The two UHF antennas though not connected, are somehow able to work together
to improve reception. Hope this helps. I'll post photos as soon as I get a chance. Street address: 1348 Winfield Circle
Hi Joe,

Thanks for some clarification.

So you're not combining the antennas? You're running separate antenna cables to each room?

I was under the impression that you were getting bi-directional reception to distribute through the house.

Also, you gave a zip code but I didn't see a city. It would be nice to know the city so somebody wouldn't have to research the ZIP code to see what city it belongs.


Last edited by bobsgarage; 1-May-2019 at 1:38 AM.
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Old 1-May-2019, 1:51 AM   #6
JoeAZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsgarage View Post
Hi Joe,

Thanks for some clarification.

So you're not combining the antennas? You're running separate antenna cables to each room?

I was under the impression that you were getting bi-directional reception to distribute through the house.

Also, you gave a zip code but I didn't see a city. It would be nice to know the city so somebody wouldn't have to research the ZIP code to see what city it belongs.

No, I am not combining the UHF antennas. Yes, each of the televisions
has it's own dedicated cable. I AM getting bi-directional reception from each of the UHF antennas. Prescott, AZ is 86301

The 2 bay pointed at Mt Francis, here in Prescott, receives all Mt. Francis
signals, even Rf 11. It also receives everything on Mingus Mtn, plus
KNAZ, Rf 22 some 60 miles away, with a 2 edge signal.
The 4 bay pointed at Mingus Mtn/Flagstaff receives everything on Mingus
Mtn, most Flagstaff translators, KNAZ on Rf 22, KFPH on Rf 13.
It also receives everything on Mt. Francis. Adding the modified FM antenna
with a UVSJ, pointed at Mingus Mtn, gets me K06AE, a translator on Rf6 which feeds the KNAZ, NBC main transmitterfrom KPNX NBC 12, in Phoenix.

Hope this all makes sense......
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Old 1-May-2019, 1:49 PM   #7
rickbb
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You could feed both TV's with an A/B switch, if you're so inclined.
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Old 1-May-2019, 2:15 PM   #8
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeAZ View Post
No, I am not combining the UHF antennas. Yes, each of the televisions has it's own dedicated cable. I AM getting bi-directional reception from each of the UHF antennas.
Thank you for the additional details. Good reception results at a unique location.

Do the UHF antennas have reflectors?

Did you buy the UHF antennas or did you make them? If you bought them, what model are they?

Are the antennas outside?

How high are the antennas?

Are you using any amps?
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Last edited by rabbit73; 1-May-2019 at 3:10 PM.
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Old 1-May-2019, 3:02 PM   #9
JoeAZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickbb View Post
You could feed both TV's with an A/B switch, if you're so inclined.
Correct. That is how I started but found it to be a bit inconvenient.

My rationale for having both Mt Francis in Prescott and Mingus Mtn/
Flagstaff is really to have duplicates/backup since those translators
sometimes are out for days at a time. Overall, I receive about 50
different programming channels but the total number of received
channels is over 85.
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Old 1-May-2019, 3:12 PM   #10
JoeAZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thank you for the additional details. Good reception results at a unique location.

Do the UHF antennas have reflectors?

Did you buy the antennas or did you make them?

Are the antennas outside?

How high are the antennas?

Are you using any amps?
Yes, both UHF antennas have reflectors and are the Stellar Lab, 2 bay
and 4 bay models. Antennas are mounted outside on rear corner of
my home about 30 feet AGL. I tried the Mingus Mtn 4 Bay with an
amp. It helped with the translators for Williams and Flagstaff but
they are just more of the same duplicates of what I already receive.
I guess the Mt Francis 2 bay is passive for the Mingus Mtn 4 Bay and
vice versa. The modified FM antenna was also a Stellar Lab but
in poor condition. I cut the boom, eliminating the drive and reflector
elements that were bent. I then connected it to the 4 Bay pointed at
Mingus via a UVSJ. I helps me get K06AE a 500 watt translator which
feeds the KNAZ NBC affiliate south of Flagstaff. KNAZ is a full power,
satellite of KPNX, Phoenix/Mesa. That antenna also improves the signals
on KAZT Prescott, Rf 7, K11LC Prescott and KFPH Flagstaff, Rf 13.
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Old 1-May-2019, 7:38 PM   #11
rabbit73
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Thank you for more details. It seems to work well for your location.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038cc35391921





https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=KDFQ

https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=KNAZ

I don't think it's exactly what Bob was looking for. He wants to combine the coax lines from antennas aimed in two directions into one coax line without the loss of any channels. He will need to hunt a little longer, or resort to more conventional proven solutions.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg JoeAZTVFreport5-1-2019.JPG (170.5 KB, 369 views)
File Type: jpg JoeAZTVFreportRE.jpg (292.3 KB, 361 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 1-May-2019 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 2-May-2019, 5:05 PM   #12
JoeAZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thank you for more details. It seems to work well for your location.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038cc35391921





https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=KDFQ

https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=KNAZ

I don't think it's exactly what Bob was looking for. He wants to combine the coax lines from antennas aimed in two directions into one coax line without the loss of any channels. He will need to hunt a little longer, or resort to more conventional proven solutions.
Just an aside. Both the TV Fool and the rabbitears have significant errors
and/or omissions. Of the two, rabbitears is more accurate. I have NEVER
seem KDFQ in any of my travels. I also believe that the KNAZ and KFPH
signals are much better than either report indicate.
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Old 2-May-2019, 10:35 PM   #13
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeAZ View Post
Just an aside. Both the TV Fool and the rabbitears have significant errors and/or omissions. Of the two, rabbitears is more accurate.
Yes, rabbitears.info is more accurate. But, it should be because it is run by Trip who works for the FCC. It's about as accurate as it can be with all the Repack changes.
Quote:
I have NEVER seen KDFQ in any of my travels.
KDFQ was analog on 47. It is now licensed for digital on 27, but is silent.
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=KDFQ

https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?...ems&facid=7369

http://www.fccinfo.com/CMDProEngine....6308c9d99a17aa
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Old 2-May-2019, 11:06 PM   #14
Tower Guy
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Yes, the database on rabbitears.info is just about perfect. The current tvfool database has the locations of many of the repacked stations as longitude 00 00 00 and latitude 00 00 00. This seems to be true especially for stations that maximized their power during the repack.

The other differences between the results would be due to the precision of the terrain databases used by each calculation. Even the FCC allows various block sizes when stations calculate inter-station interference.
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Old 2-May-2019, 11:10 PM   #15
JoeAZ
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Previously, Rf 47 was the ABC 15, KNXV translator here in Prescott.
It was always on Mt. Francis as I recall. If I recollect correctly, there
was another Rf 47 but that station was not receivable in Prescott nor
Prescott Valley. The transmitter was well South of Prescott and it
was directional towards Phoenix. Perhaps that is the "phantom"
KDFQ. Perhaps one of you could elaborate as to why something
similar to my system wouldn't work for Bob????
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Old 3-May-2019, 12:05 PM   #16
bobsgarage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeAZ View Post
Yes, both UHF antennas have reflectors and are the Stellar Lab, 2 bay
and 4 bay models. Antennas are mounted outside on rear corner of
my home about 30 feet AGL. I tried the Mingus Mtn 4 Bay with an
amp. It helped with the translators for Williams and Flagstaff but
they are just more of the same duplicates of what I already receive.
I guess the Mt Francis 2 bay is passive for the Mingus Mtn 4 Bay and
vice versa. The modified FM antenna was also a Stellar Lab but
in poor condition. I cut the boom, eliminating the drive and reflector
elements that were bent. I then connected it to the 4 Bay
Hey Joe, as long as your solution works for you that's the main thing. Myself, I'm having fun with it. It's my personality. It's like fixing a car for me. I find out the problem I fix it and I don't care to see it again as long as it's working well.

I hope that my research will help someone. I could stop right now and most people would be satisfied, but, that's not me.

I was hoping you could post some pictures of your setup. After all, you could be helping others maybe even somebody in your neighborhood, you never know.
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