Trying to take my OTA experience to next level
My TV Fool Report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e2cbfa8fc32d44
What's important to me: Clear reception for all the major TV networks: 8.1 (NBC), 10.1 (CBS), 13.1 (FOX), and 28.1 (ABC). This is my first foray into using outdoors OTA antenna (previously, I've been using MOHU Leaf products). Had professional installers do work around our house - adding ethernet jacks under TVs, burying cables (HDMI) behind wall, mounting our TVs on walls, etc. They also installed outdoors OTA antenna for me. This was the first antenna I had installed: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Which is omnidirectional as you can see. I got the following: 8.1 (NBC) - seems solid, no pixelating at all 13.1 (Fox) - pixelating from time to time. But no loss of signal Was not satisfied - wanted to get 10.1 (CBS) and 28.1 (ABC) as well, so I got a directional antenna instead: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hdb4x I removed the first antenna (previously installed by professional) and replaced this with the new directional antenna by myself. At first: I got all channels except for 8.1. So I worked to point my antenna toward the azimuth shown in the TV Fool report, and re-tested. I now had all major networks! However - here are my current issues: 8.1 - this one seems to be the worst of all major networks. However, I am not quite sure what is happening. I can have solid signal for most of the day, only to suddenly have symptoms (pixellating a bit, or pixellating badly, or loss of signal completely). Sometimes those symptoms continue for hours, or only for a short time. I cannot figure out any pattern here. And it doesn't seem to be weather-related either, but I haven't confirmed this 100%. The other channels - Fox 13.1 seems to fare better than 8.1, and the 10.1 (CBS), 28.1 (ABC) seems to be more solid. Which is odd because 8.1 seems to be the most solid when using the first antenna that I replaced (the omnidirectional antenna). The antenna is currently roughly 8 feet off round, mounted on eastern edge of the house, pointed SE. There is house next to us to the east. Both our houses are 1-floor houses. I am wondering if I will get significant results by rising my antenna maybe another 5 feet using "sweged mast" (basically extend my mast I have now by another 5 feet). Or if I should buy a different antenna that has more "wire" - like http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HDB8X maybe? Does my setup have powered amplifier? Yes - still have that (it came with the first antenna, the omnidirectional one, and based on my tests, I need it - if I don't have powered amplifier, I cannot get 8.1 (NBC) at all). Not sure about pre-amp - if this is important I can check (not sure how to check to see if I have one, but I have an idea of how I can check.. in the outdoor panel on the side of our house). So should I consider extending my mast by 5 feet to hopefully make my 8.1 signal more solid? Looking to take my first outdoor OTA experience to the next level. Thanks in advance! |
Welcome to the forum, cflannagan:
The problem is the wrong antenna. You need an antenna for VHF and UHF. None of the antennas you list are very good for VHF, in spite of what the marketing description says. It is the REAL channel number that determines what antenna is needed, not the VIRTUAL channel number. VHF-Low: real channels 2-6 VHF-High: real channels 7-13 UHF: real channels 14-51 The Omni antenna is not suitable for you. It works poorly in all directions, and its amp doesn't make up for its inherently poor performance. You don't need an Omni antenna because your desired channels are all in the same direction. The HDB4X and HDB8X are primarily UHF antennas, but they don't do very well for VHF. You can add a VHF antenna to your HDB4X or replace it with a Winegard HD7694P. I doubt that you will need a preamp if you have the correct antenna aimed at 122 degrees magnetic, unless there are trees or other buildings in the signal path. If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike. http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...9&d=1441917363 Try it first without extending the mast to see how it does. How long is the coax to the TV and how many TVs are you feeding? If your TV has a signal strength indicator, it will tell you how weak a signal can be before you lose it. |
Hmmm.. didn't realize about the UHF vs VHF performance in antennas - someone recommended the directional antenna (HDB4X) to me when I was having issues with the omnidirectional antenna; now it sounds like I might need to return not just 1 but 2 antennas :-D
The antenna feeds to 3 TVs in our house. The powered amplifier sits inside our garage attic, between the antenna and the splitter (going to 3 of our TVs). Not sure how long the coax is. Guesstimating maybe 10 to 20 yards from the antenna to the furthest TV in our house (our master bedroom)? I also have a collection of 6 images I just took since your reply (thanks by the way). http://imgur.com/a/ikzH5 For context: 1st photo is of our TV showing signal strength for 8.1. Just not too long ago, I observed the signal going out for 8.1 for a second, and when it came back, the signal strength was still showing 4 bars. Not sure what this means. 2nd photo is our antenna currently mounted up there. 3rd, 4th, and 5th photos shows what I think is grounding for the coaxial cable. I was able to trace the coaxial cable being grounded to the antenna itself. last photo is meant to show the antenna more generally (zoomed out) When you say "try it first" - try what first? I was wondering if you were referring to the grounding for the coaxial cable, or something else? For the HD7694P, would I be able to mount it in that kind of mast I have up there right now? Looks like that "yagi-style antenna" is designed mainly for top of roof, which is not an option for me (not due to HOA, but not wanting to void the roof warranty by screwing something thru the rooftop - we recently had our roof replaced). |
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You really want to google each call sign in your list, check the wiki for sub-channels, and check titantv.com for programming. Make a list of the channels you want to receive. Group your list by frequency band (2-6, 7-13, 14+). Chances are Rabbit's suggested antenna will do just fine. Quote:
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We're talking next level, right? WMOR carries This TV which has retro programming and very good movies. WTTA carries My Network and Cozi. WTSP carries Antenna TV and Justice TV. If you are Greek, you may be interested in WZRA which would be a challenge to pull in with a single stationary antenna.
You should explore the other channels in case there is a special interest for you (heroes and icons is mine). If that channel happens to be on either flank, you will want to get an antenna with sufficient beam width to grab that station for you. H&I happens to be a sub channel of WTVT in Tampa -- which is on your list. I think you are going to be surprised how high that next level is. Have fun! |
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You only need two antennas if you want to keep the HDB4X UHF antenna for ABC, and add a second antenna for NBC, CBS, and Fox on VHF. If you want just one antenna for all four channels, you need a UHF/VHF combo antenna like the Winegard HD7694P or the RCA ANT751. The RCA has a smaller form factor, but it doesn't have as much gain which might be needed because of the trees I see to the SE. Quote:
Thanks for the photos. The signal strength shown for 8.1 might be misleading if the amp is needed to compensate for the VHF deficiency of the antenna. It looks like your UHF antenna is on a satellite mount. Hopefully your installer grounded the mount and grounded the coax with a grounding block. which is important in your area with so many storms. Quote:
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You can see the sub channels if you click on the callsigns in this list for your zip code.
http://www.rabbitears.info/search.ph...pe=dBm&height= http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...5&d=1471810544 |
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I will try to get the antenna you suggested and try it to see if results improve. The problem is, it seems to be huge.. 6 feet long? Which means it'll be pretty visible from street. This would likely enter the territory where HOA would start sending me letters. So I might need to ask the installers to come back and move it to back of house if needed. |
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I have purchased the antenna. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Hopefully this is the antenna! I see now why HDB4X fell short; it said it only had 15 mile range for VHF high band - no bueno. For future reference, is there a website dedicated to listing the "truth" about each antenna - how well they would handle UHF, VHF-low, VHF-high, etc? |
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WMOR has a Noise Margin of 58.0 dB for an antenna mounted in the clear. If you add the HDB4X antenna gain of 12 dB (they say max of 14.2 dB) you are up to 70.0 dB NM, which is on the edge of overload. http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...6&d=1471824123 Interpreting Noise Margin in the TV Fool Report http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Reception/tvfool_nm.html Looking at it using the signal power, WMOR is -32.8 dBm. -32.8 dBm + 12 dB ant gain + 20 dB amp gain = -0.8 dBm, which is tuner overload even when allowing for the coax loss after the amp. It might be even worse than that, because the 1byone website says 32 dB gain, but they don't state the conditions: https://www.1byone.com/TV-Accessorie...nna/OUS00-0683 ATSC Recommended Practice: Receiver Performance Guidelines Document A/74:2010, 7 April 2010 RECEIVER PERFORMANCE GUIDELINES 5.1 Sensitivity Quote:
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When you have partial overload, it is possible to receive your strongest signals, but the weaker signals (like NBC) become damaged by IMD (Intermodulation Distortion) which produces spurious signals which raise the noise floor and reduce the SNR of the weak signals to less than the minimum required 15 dB for reception. NBC is listed as 6.4 dB weaker than WMOR, but the difference is greater than that because your present antenna isn't very efficient for NBC. The Winegard HD7694P antenna is 65 inches long, but the UHF corner reflector makes it look more massive. http://www.winegard.com/kbase/uploads/HD7694P.pdf I don't know the length the RCA ANT751, because RCA gives the box size, which isn't very helpful. If the RCA antenna is in the clear it SHOULD have enough gain, but the 7694 antenna has more gain if the signals are weakened by objects in the path. |
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Ah, I see you ordered the 7694.
I suggest you try it with just one TV and no splitter and no amp, to avoid tuner overload. Then, add the splitter. If the signals are too weak, replace the splitter with a Channel Master 3414 distribution amp. http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...7&d=1471828880 Quote:
The FCC says you can have your antenna as high as 12 feet above the peak of the roof no matter what the HOA says. https://www.fcc.gov/media/over-air-r...n-devices-rule |
Thanks for the very detailed post showing numbers. Lot for me to take (I'm a coder so I love geeky details).
So, based on your post, and studying other links/docs, I think I want to achieve a NM of 0 at least (preferably 5 or 10 NM, to give myself buffer, otherwise I'd probably have frustrating viewing experience having signal drop below threshold quite often due to random events). Antennas comes with gain that will add to the NM (says here https://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opt...57#how_to_read that antenna is the only one that I can really add to NM?), and based on your post, it sounds like I don't want antennas with too much gain - because it seems most of the stations I want already have NM numbers of around 55? (adding 15 NM or so would put it into overload territory). How much gain would I get from the HD7694P? And then signal power is another thing. Sounds like I want to aim for -5 dBm or less. Anything over -5 dBm would also be overload. So, if I remove the powered amplifier, it'll eliminate about 20 db, bringing me out of overload territory. Hope I understand this correctly. But removing powered amplifier would cause me to lose NBC with my current antenna; we've already established that my current antenna is not effective for NBC, so the new antenna would most likely solve this. Thanks for the quick education! |
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Shoot, forgot to ask before I order. Does HD7694P have decent wind load numbers at least? Florida here, so we have storms.
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We don't offer a guarantee, but we try very hard to give useful advice. The antenna marketing departments have a tendency to make exaggerated claims to sell antennas and raise your hopes, which end up crashing on the rocks of reality. Within each brand you can make a comparison, but not from brand to brand because sometimes gain figures are stated in dBi and sometimes dBd, with a difference of 2.1 dB. Mileage figures aren't too useful except within a brand. What good is a "50 mile" antenna if you are behind a hill that blocks the signals? |
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