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Rich 18-Aug-2011 6:42 AM

Northern Colorado Antenna: Loveland/Fort Collins

Like many others, we are ditching satellite. We will get most programming online but want to get local news. We also want to keep the cost of this as low as is reasonably possible. Also, and this is a big one, my wife is not thrileed with this change and so this needs to be easy to use and realiable for her.

The station we are most interested in (KUSA) is in Denver, which is about 50 miles south of us. Our 2 TVs are old and not digital ready so we have ordered a DTA box (Zinwell ZAT-970A) to try this out. (it has not yet arrived) We may also replace one TV with a small new, digital one.

I need help with the antenna end of things. Like I said, we are about 50 miles north of Denver. Here is my analysis:

While both Loveland and Denver are both on the plains along the Front Range, there are still a lot of hills in 50 miles.

To start, I have purchased a Mohu Leaf antenna; it arrived today. However, after doing some more reading, given the distance and teh hilly terrain, I am not sure it is going to work. In the event it does not, or if the reception is poor or unreliable, I would consider putting an antenna in one of our attics. The preferred one would be the one over the garage on the south side of the house, about 15 feet off the ground. The other, over the remainder of the house running north, is a little tighter to work in. It is probably about 25 ft above the ground.

I know nothing about antennas. We are not TV junkies; we mainly want this for one or two news stations coming out of Denver, although if we found some interesting programming on other stations we would probably watch those stations as well. Not really interested in having to turn antennas or playing around with them in anyway really. My wife is certainly not interested in this. She would like a "satellite-like" experience.

So given all of that, and based on the analysis I ran, can anybody reccomend an antenna? (on the assumption the Leaf will not work). Also, if we end up putting one in the attic, will running cable over 30-40 feet and/or splitting the signal to 2 TVs cause a loss of signal?

Thank you in advance for any help you can offer.

Dave Loudin 18-Aug-2011 3:23 PM

The Mohu may get you the first 6 or so stations listed in your TVFool report. You should get reliable reception of stations in that list down to KUSA by picking up a Winegard HD-7696P and mounting it at your garage location, pointing south.

Good luck.

Rich 18-Aug-2011 4:33 PM

Thanks Dave. I will let you know how the Mohu goes when the DTA box arrives.

I like the garage attic location as it is easier to work in.

As I thought more about this whole situation, I realized that I grew up with cable television. I have never run antenna wires through a house. How do people run wires through walls to where their TV is located? In particular, the upstairs TV is located in the corner of two outside walls, which I am sure are full of insulation. Also, from the attic the wire would have to go thorugh the upstairs walls, the footers for the wall, down into the downstairs wall. I have worked home constrution in the past so I unsderstand how walls are constructed. I just don't see an easy way to snake wires through to all locations. Any thoughts or advice anybody?

Finally, while I have some understanding of electronics (from playing with it as a kid) I don't really get why different antennas work differently. There seem to be so many models. Can anybody point me to some primer on antenna design/function/theory?


mtownsend 18-Aug-2011 5:32 PM

If the house is already wired for cable TV, then you might consider using the existing cables. You can connect the coax to your antenna instead of the cable system (don't connect multiple signal sources to the same network of cables).

If you do plan on running new cable, I've had success dropping down from above (attic) or coming up from underneath (sub-floor) by drilling a small hole to feed the cable. The main challenges are finding the exact location for drilling the hole, finding wall cavities that aren't blocked by anything, and getting around existing elements (electrical wiring, telco, plumbing, ducts, etc.).

Antenna theory is a huge subject that is not easily covered by one source. You might want to start with something like and then drill down into more detailed areas as you see fit.

For practical consumer TV antennas, you'll primarily find the following antenna designs in use:
  • Yagi
  • Log periodic
  • Bowtie
  • Dipole (a.k.a. rabbit ears)
  • Loop

You can also ask questions on the forums to learn more.

John Candle 18-Aug-2011 6:45 PM

Tv Antennas and Reception
Aim the antenna at about 170 degree magnetic compass , Here is how to aim antennas ,

Rich 18-Aug-2011 6:52 PM

Thanks everybody for all of the adivce.

The house is not wired for cable, but is wired for satellite. Is the cable the same? I know that when the satellite guy came and did some repairs, he told me satellite uses two cables from the dish, something about high band and low band. Anyway, would the satellite cables work and if so, would either the high or the low work?

GroundUrMast 18-Aug-2011 8:58 PM

The cable used in satellite installations can be reused for OTA. Many of the accessory parts are satellite system only. For example, a diplexer may look identical to a splitter, but the diplexer will not pass OTA frequencies.

Rich 18-Aug-2011 9:32 PM

Thanks, this sounds promising. The point at which I would patch "splice, cut, ?) into the satellite cables in the house is well past the diplexer thing, which I assume is the little junction box on the outside of the hosue with cables from the dish coming in and numerous cable going out to parts of the house.

If I cut into a line already in the attic, and add some sort of splitter device so that the line from the dish is maintained but the antenna signal can get into the line, will the splitter interefere with the dish signals if we ever go back or if I sell the house to someone else who wants dish? I am guessing a splitter is a splitter, no matter the origin of the signal?

GroundUrMast 18-Aug-2011 10:22 PM

If you are going to cut existing cable in a satellite installation, expect to find 'quad-shielding', two foil layers combined with two braided layers of shielding. The connectors will need to be selected based on the cable. Fortunately, the big box home improvement centers usually carry the connectors and tools.

If the existing dish is active, you can usually insert an OTA/Satellite diplexer. One port accepts the signal from the dish, the other input port accepts the signal from the OTA antenna. If the dish is not active, don't worry about it, let the next person put a connector and 'F' barrel in to restore the satellite connection, presuming they want it.

coco 19-Aug-2011 12:32 AM

There is a lot of usefull information on this site:

Rich 19-Aug-2011 4:02 AM

Arrrggghhh! The Zinwell converter box arrived today and as far as I can tell, it is defective. I tested it out on an old, spare TV we have in storage (very old). The power button on the converter does not seem to work; the power light stays on no matter what I press. When I plug it in, it sends some sort of signal to the TV because the screen goes from snow to a conastant blue. However, no start menu appears like it says in the instructions (which I had to look up online. Not inlcuded in box). I have unplugged it several times and no change. The set is old enough that here is not any kind of digital or cable setting. Its a basic set. I tried it out on the two sets in use and no difference.

I will be returning it tomorrow for a refund. New plan: get a small, 20 inch digital enabled TV for upstairs and try out the Leaf antenna. If reception is not good, we will move on to tbigger antennas.

Thank you all for your help thus far.

John Candle 19-Aug-2011 5:36 AM

Tv Antennas and Reception
New small to medium size digital flat panel tv's are not much money now days.

Rich 19-Aug-2011 1:08 PM

One of the whole points of doing this is to save money, thus we are trying to keep the costs as low as possible. However, the set we will replace is at least 18-20 years old. It has a single, screw-in type connector for coaxial cable. So right now the sattelite and dvd player all connect through an adaptox box I used to use to transfer video from our camera to our computer. It's a mess of wires back there. I think it wou ld be ok to spend a few dollars to replace it.

Rich 1-Sep-2011 8:30 PM

OK, so I went to look into the reccomended antenna. I went to the Winegard site. While there I saw a form for an antenna reccomendation and figured I would double check before ordering. Here is the response I received from the Winegard technical folk:

"Normally I do not reccomend an indoor antenna at your distance. They only receive signal within 30 to 35 miles and almost all of your stations are beyond 35 miles. Please fill out another antenna request if you are interested in an outdoor antenna."

My station(s) of interest are all 45 miles away. Any experience with this? Any thoughts?


Rich 1-Sep-2011 8:32 PM

I should mention that I really do not want to put up an outdoor antenna.


John Candle 1-Sep-2011 8:42 PM

Tv Antennas and Reception
You can try a Non amplified indoor Tv antenna , . Aimed at about 170 degree magnetic compass. Here is how to aim indoor Tv antennas , Here are places to buy antennas and etc. , , , ,

Rich 1-Sep-2011 8:51 PM

So you suggest buying the Winegard and trying it even though the manufacturere says it might not work? Does the wall of a hosue really make that much difference in signal?

Finally, is there a small, non-obtrusive outdoor antenna that would work? I would still prefer to mount it in the attic.

John Candle 1-Sep-2011 8:55 PM

Tv Antennas and Reception
You are saving money because the antenna and Tv are a one time cost. Cable and Satellite are money month after month.

Rich 1-Sep-2011 8:59 PM

I get that. But Winegard says my antenna needs to be outside. People here have previously suggesetd that the Winegard HD-7696P should. Folks here seem rather knowledgable. However, Winegard makes the thing. Just trying to clear up my confusion. I want to believe the folks here because I don't want to mount an antenna on my house. However, I figure the manufacturer must know something about product performance. Help!

TheEmrys 2-Sep-2011 5:10 AM

I'm in Greeley, and I pick up 50 channels with a pretty small Terk HDTVO. It fit on my old Dish mast. Might be an option. It is considerably smaller than anything my neighbors have. But my signal isn't as strong as I would like, but it does come with a preamp (12 db). I may get a bigger one, depending on the results from my post in the same forum.

Billiam 2-Sep-2011 1:24 PM

Rich. I live 35 to 40 miles from my local stations and I am able to receive every local UHF station in Yellow on my TV Fool report with a Channel Master 4221 located inside on the first floor at the front of the house while sitting on a chair pointed toward Kansas City. I think you would get most of the UHF stations out of Denver if you tried something similar. Stations like KUSA 9 and the other VHF stations probably won't come in though and you would have to get a separate VHF antenna for those.

Rich 2-Sep-2011 1:37 PM

TheEmrys, that is encouraging. Do you get 9News, which is mainly what I am after.

I have not looked at the Terk antennas. Does anybody have a reccomendation for a simarly sized/styled antenns that w ould give a stonger signal for my situation? I have a dish on the south side of my house now; that mast could be used as it faces Denver. Its only about 6 ft off the ground.

Just wanted to say that you all have been wondefully helpful thus far. I have done a lot of reading on the links provided and have learned a fair amount about antennas. Not sure I understand it all; however, it is very helpful. Also, from my reading my conclusion is that after mapping my place, I just need to get an antenna and try it in the various locations I am interested in. I now appreciate that, for a variety of reaons, it might work for some or all channels, or it might not.

TheEmrys 2-Sep-2011 5:42 PM

I get 9 News and their weather channel clear as a bell.

GroundUrMast 2-Sep-2011 5:43 PM

Early on, Dave Loudin recommended a Winegard HD7696P which is a relatively long outdoor design.

I think the suggestion is good for your situation because that antenna offers far more gain than any of the small indoor antennas. The idea is, that while you should expect some signal loss due to indoor mounting (just how much remains to be seen when the roof has a load of wet snow on it), you can count on the antenna gain to overcome up to 12 dB of the building penetration loss as compared to a set of rabbit ears. This is not the same as adding an amplifier, which could increase the signal level while adding unwanted noise and distortion to the signal. Antenna gain is better than amplifier gain because you get both, increased signal strength and a net improvement of noise margin (that means you get stronger signal without added noise).

If you have a metal roof, or other construction materials which reflect or block TV signals, an indoor or attic mounted antenna is not going to work for you. If the roof is of wood or composite shingles and the mounting location is not obstructed by metallic ducts or foil insulation, I would definitely try an attic install. If you don't see the desired stations, you still have the option to move the antenna out of the attic.

The HD7696P is more than enough antenna for an outdoor install... (on your dish mount perhaps?)

As an alternate idea, I would expect the compact RCA ANT-751 to easily wall mount outdoors. Free of building penetration losses, it would be capable of reception of all the signals in the green and yellow section of your report when pointed in their direction. (I would not choose this antenna for an attic install though.)

Rich 2-Sep-2011 8:45 PM

Decision Time
Ok, based on what I have heard here and what I have learned from reading the suggested links, here is my plan.

Today i am going to Sams and buying a new Vizio 22 inch digital TV ready for internet: $239. The size is right and being internet ready eliminates the need for a Roku box. In the end it will cost about the same as a new non-internet TV and a Roku. I will hook it up to the Leaf antenna (have not returned it yet but time is running out). When that does not work (gotta try, I'm awfully damn curious), I will return the antenna and order the Winegard HD-7696P reccomended here. (BTW, Winegard reccomended the same thing when I gave them my situation).

Once the Winegard arrives, I will try it in the lower attic and see how it goes; then the upper attic just to compare, and then, if necessary, maybe standing on the roof just for kicks. Yes, this will be a long term project I can see already. Assuming that one of those locations works, I will install it and then get busy with a Roku box and converter for our main TV. We are looking at a 52 inch TV for that room so, right now, too expensive to replace.

Thanks again everybody for all of your help. I will post updates as we move thorugh this transition.

TheEmrys 2-Sep-2011 9:38 PM

Just something to think about... some of the SmartTV's out there have built-in DVR hardware. You just have to hook up an external HD and then you've got your DVR for free as well. I have an LG SmartTV, and I need to get an external HD enclosure and a logitech harmony remote to activate the DVR. For some reason, the disable the DVR/PVR hardware by default for the US. Everywhere else its enabled.

Rich 3-Sep-2011 6:24 AM

Wow. Ok, i went out and bought the Vizio M221NV 22-Inch Full HD 1080p LED LCD TV at Sams. I plugged it in upstairs (second floor), attached the Leaf antenna, scanned and what do you know? I am getting 31 digital channels! Unbelievable. The pictures are absolutely clear. The antenna isn't even standing up, it's laying flat on the dresser. I have not tried it downstairs but based on those results, I am now thinking it will work.

I went back and looked at my scan versus what I am getting. It appears that everything is coming from the south; nothing from the north (Cheyenne). That is fine with me. I get WGN, ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox and PBS. For those who are curious, the lowest station on the list I am getting is KDTV. The picture is incredible. Could the signal be being passed by a repeater? I looked on a site that maps these but did not see any. Anyway, I am a happy camper. My wife likes it too. She said the set is to small, but since the point is to save money, since it is in our bedroom, and since the next step up would be another $80 at least, I think it is staying. So far, we have about $320 in this project; that's about 4 months of satellite costs.

For the main TV downstairs I was going to get a Roku box. However, she said she wants to be able to record. So I am thinking I will get a DVR that has internet capability, another Leaf antenna (after I make sure this all works downstairs), and a DTA converter. I will look around on this site for DTA converter recommendations. If I can do this for around $200, then the cost for all of this will break even in about 7 months.

Thank you everybody for all of your help. I have certainly learned a lot on this site.

GroundUrMast 3-Sep-2011 7:48 AM

Welcome to the world of OTA DTV... Repeater... don't think so. The up side to digital signals is that they can add a bit of extra data so that if there are a few errors due to interference, noise or fading, the receiver is able to 'correct' the error. The result is a picture that looks 'perfect'.

You're now receiving as good or better quality picture than the cable company would deliver to you. It's not uncommon for the cable company to reduce the bit rate of a signal before they put it on their system. They figure most of their customers will never know.

John Candle 3-Sep-2011 9:07 AM

Tv Antennas and Reception
Here are plain converter boxes and converter recorders.

Rich 3-Sep-2011 3:34 PM

Thanks all, you have been very helpful in all of this.

GrouindUrMast, I didn't think there was any kind of repeater.. It's just that the picture is so clear and I know that back when I did Search and Rescue work, emergency services used them to get radio signals over the mountains around here. Also, some of the mountain communtiies use them to get the Denver stations. Not having OTA tv so long I still connect antennas with snow and fuzzy pictures.

Mr. Candle, thanks for the converter box link.

Rich 3-Sep-2011 3:58 PM

Oh, and I chcecked the TV downstairs. 31 digital channels and one analog. the analog comes in all snowy and fuzzy. You can barely see it. just like I remember TV in my youth.

Rich 16-Sep-2011 5:10 AM

Up and running
Since you guys have been so helpful, and with the idea that these posts might help somebody else in my area, I am posting this update.

We have shut down the sattelite yet; we have been slowly testing out how well this will work, But we are very close now.

The upstairs set works great on antenna. Since it is the new, digital, internet-ready TV we bought, I tested out Netflix and it works fine. It is one floor above and about 20 feet from our wireless router (Apple Time Machine). Signal is going through two walls. No delay, fuzziness. Like I said, works fine. My wife wants to be able to get specific NBC shows that so not appear to be on Netflix. However, NBC has ther own app that is apparently downloadable. OR does anybody know of a general inernet app that can be downlaoded onto a Vizio? One that will let me go to any internet site. Then she could just go to and watch her shows.

The Zinwell ZAT-970A digital to analog converter arrived today. I hooked it up with the Leaf antenna (borrowed from upstairs) and it seems to be working fine. I am getting 31 channels. Not the most intuitive product to use, and the manual only helps a little, but it is doing what I need it to do. So now I need another antenna. Given the signal strength, I may try one of the $20 antennas I recently saw at K-Mart. If it doesn't work, I'll return it and get another Leaf. Now I'll order a Roku box, set it up, and call DirectTV and tell them to come get their dish.

The weirdest part of all of this will be actually having to think about what we want to watch. Now we just turn on the set, go to thechannel guids and look for an show to watch. Now, at least for the internet TV, we will actually have to decide on a program and then go get it. And as for broadcast stuff, we will actually have to learn TV schedules again. This will be odd.

So that's the update. Thanks again for all of your help. This has been a real education in 21st century television. And I hope this thread is useful to others in a similar situation.

TheEmrys 16-Sep-2011 5:13 AM

I use Hulu Plus. Its $7.99/month. It brings you NBC, ABC, and (most) Fox shows. There is no CBS.

One option that I will be doing shortly is building my own DVR. While it will be ~$500 (including Windows 7), I'll have a dual tuner set up. I figure its <5 months of what I was giving to Comcast. This would let me record my NCIS.:D

TheEmrys 16-Sep-2011 5:20 AM

One caveat to Hulu Plus. People often complain that it is slow/choppy. Well, Comcast is still the nominal owner of Hulu Plus (its for sale) and it is not in their best interest to provide good streaming content. I did two things, and eliminated my lag. First, I went with a wired connection. I was even using Wireless-N, and I found it insufficient. Second, I changed my DNS server for my router. I used opendns (google would work just as well, but they just may collect that data :eek:), and now it isn't an issue. In the rare times that it is, I lower my stream bandwidth from 3.2mb to 2.0. There isn't much of a difference in quality.

Rich 16-Sep-2011 5:31 AM

Thanks TheEmrys. I need to explore options alittle moore I guess. Right now we are on Netflix. HOwever, my wife wants NBC. While we get it OTA, we would have to put soem type of recorder in the mix, which I wsa not planning on doing since I assuemd we coudl get everything online. Hulu Plus is an option, although then we lose soem moive content of Netflix. It was CBS that hs the app I as thinking of. That would get my wife NCIS, which she loves. Then she coudl watch it whenever.

I have thought of getting a DVR that can do DTA converions, if such a thing exists. All of the DVR with interent I have seen are in the $300 range. I am trying to be cheap with all of this. The new $260 set was unplanned by necessary.

So here is what I need I guess. A DVR that can do the DTA conversion and that can provide internet TV. Oh yeah, and for less than about $150! How's that for an order? Any suggestions?

Seriously, can such a thing be bought/built? How do you build your own DVR? What are the advantages?

TheEmrys 16-Sep-2011 5:46 AM

It can be done cheaper. If you have a spare computer laying around. If you have an unused computer, depending on its age, you could use the computer as a DVR. You'd need some software (some come with the cards) and you need enough Hard Drive space to make it worth your while.

I'm not sure your computer tech expertise, but I'll try to be simple. There are two options: PCI and PCI-express. PCI-express is the newer computers (I believe the standard was introduced back in 2005 or so). If you are doing it cheap and you have a computer that will work, you need to get a card, add it in, and then set it up. You also need a video card that can plug into your TV. There are 3 main types of connectors - D-Sub, DVI, and HDMI. HDMI is optimal because it also carries sound.

However, the easiest way to do it is through Windows 7/Vista with Microsoft's Media Center. It will give you a TV Guide-like interface and VERY easy programming options. If you know a student, or have a .edu e-mail address, you can get Windows 7 for $30.

I'm pretty big into the computer side of things. Here is my build that, once my wife starts her new job (woohoo!), we're going to build. It will handle Blu-Ray, OTA, Netflix, Hulu Plus as well as any DVD that you own and back up (I watch strictly digital copies of all my stuff, which is legal if you don't share).

Hauppauge 2250 (dual digital tuners to record 2 shows at once) w/ remote - $114

Low Power Motherboard and cpu combo - $120

Good HTPC (Home Theatre PC) case - $84 (free shipping on Amazon)

4 GB of RAM - $27

Hi Efficiency Power Supply - $36

Windows 7 Home 64-bit - $99

I already have a 2 GB hard drive which I got for $70.

If you already have the computer, I would buy a new hard drive and an internal TV Tuner for ~$140. Just make sure you have the right expansion slots. You can look on the pictues (big = PCIvs. very little=PCI-express) to see which is which.

MisterMe 16-Sep-2011 5:25 PM


Originally Posted by TheEmrys (Post 11826)
It can be done cheaper. If you have a spare computer laying around. If you have an unused computer, depending on its age, you could use the computer as a DVR. ...

I would caution the OP to decide what he wants and to thoroughly research the product before buying it. A DVR set top box may cost $300, but it does exactly what you expect it to do. This may not be the case with PC-based tuners. I find it curious and troubling that Hauppage does not list the specifications for the WinTV-HVR-2250 dual TV tuner card.

Let me say up front that TV producers give birth at the very thought of digital TV on personal computers. We are all pirates out to beat them out of their hard earned money, they believe. The computer allows us pirates to duplicate their digital programs with perfect fidelity. As a result, producers do not allow digital connections between Hauppage's competitors' products and the host computer. Composite video, you can do. Component video, maybe. Digital? Absolutely not.

I cannot say if the WinTV-HVR-2250 is limited in its digital options in the same way that competing products are. However, Hauppage does not say that it does not have these limitations--not on its website anyway. The manufacturer says that its card can handle all 18 ATSC formats. This is not the same as saying that its card will display these 18 formats at full resolution.

A $300 DVR set top box will record and stream all ATSC formats at full resolution. About the Hauppage cards, I don't know. The OP may not care. If he does, then he should address this issue before making a purchasing decision.

TheEmrys 16-Sep-2011 6:54 PM

The 2250 is ATSC/ClearQAM/NTSC Dual-Tuner. Which makes it good for Digital OTA/Analog Cable/Aanalog OTA without issue. Its a pretty popular choice among HTPC builders.

Here you can see the specs listed:

It converts the OTA signal to MPEG. Then you can use Windows Movie Maker and convert easily to WMV.

Here is a great resource for HTPC's and how to build them.
The part I find more compelling over other services such as TiVo is that I then get full control of the recorded program. This will allow me to stream it to any TV/Computer in the house, and if my wife and I travel for business or whatever, we can move them to a laptop and be good. It does cost more from the outset, but there is not monthly fee.

And, if someone is wanting to avoid Windows, there is tons of software out there from MythTV to XBMC.

MisterMe 16-Sep-2011 8:39 PM


Originally Posted by TheEmrys (Post 11842)
The 2250 is ATSC/ClearQAM/NTSC Dual-Tuner. Which makes it good for Digital OTA/Analog Cable/Aanalog OTA without issue. Its a pretty popular choice among HTPC builders.

Here you can see the specs listed:

It converts the OTA signal to MPEG. ...

This is the same link that you posted earlier. I read it. Nowhere on that page does NewEgg state the output resolution of the tuner card. Not finding this information on the NewEgg page, it searched a primary source, the Hauppage website. This information is not there either. Much of the information you repeated, you see reflected in my previous post. I'm not into HTPC. I have no idea what that community's standards for acceptable video quality are. I have to rely on numbers. So far, I have not seen the numbers--at least not from NewEgg, not from Hauppage, and not from you.

TheEmrys 16-Sep-2011 8:54 PM


Originally Posted by MisterMe (Post 11850)
I'm not into HTPC. I have no idea what that community's standards for acceptable video quality are. I have to rely on numbers. So far, I have not seen the numbers--at least not from NewEgg, not from Hauppage, and not from you.

If you click on the details tab within the page I linked, you can scroll down and see this:

Technically speaking:
For ATSC and QAM digital TV, all 18 ATSC formats including 1080i can be watched or recorded to disk as a MPEG-2 Program Stream. The NXP 7164 contains two highly integrated MPEG-1/2 hardware encoders for recording analog cable TV to disk. The playback of the recorded ATSC and QAM digital TV and MPEG-2 encoded analog programs are done through a software MPEG-2 player.

What are you looking for specifically? If it hits all 18 formats, that includes their native resolutions, up to and including 1080i.

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