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John Candle 17-Jul-2011 12:54 AM

Tv Antennas and Reception
 
I am not offended. This kind of word maneuvering does not work. I know the truth and I know that many people do not like the truth.

scott784 17-Jul-2011 3:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Candle (Post 9798)
This is not a opinion based web site , if it was it would quickly degenerate in to a fascinating mess where no one would get any real answers. I go to the other web sites and I read and see what is happening. People come here with a head full ridiculous nonsense. My mission here is to cut through layers of non correct information with a firm and steady hand and provide the information they need to have the best Tv reception.

John,
You give a considerable amount of your time on this forum. I should also add that I am sure most of the participants on this board appreciate your time and efforts. I know I have in past discussions with you.

However, with all due respect, perhaps you could have been a little softer in your approach here. Svtarheel obviously does not have any personal experience with the Mohu Leaf antenna, no more than I have any 'personal' experience with this antenna. But, he merely stated that he had read positive reviews about this particular antenna. He was not asking for speculation, nor was he asking for endorsements. He simply indicated that he would like to try the antenna out. I had replied that I also had read positive reviews; and that I liked the fact that they were a local company. That's all.

'You' made the decision to respond to his comment regarding this antenna in this thread. But when you responded, you simply stated 'boohoo' to the Mohu Leaf antenna. Since you've made it known that you have lots of real world experience with various types of antennas, perhaps it would have been more helpful if you had given a brief explanation regarding why you do not endorse this particular product. But you chose not to give any specific reason other than to say you deal with facts only and something about you feeling like this company is promising 'magic'. Have you tried the antenna? Again, no one here was endorsing the antenna, John, or suggesting that it is the greatest. But I must say, you responded in a way that took more than one person by surprise.

This is a good site and it is members like yourself that make it work. But I also think it's important that everyone have a positive experience and not leave this forum, feeling like they've got to apologize to someone for something that was unnecessary in the first place. Just something for you to ponder, John ;)

Thank you for your continued participation as well as the help that you have provided forum members.

John Candle 19-Jul-2011 6:26 AM

Tv Antennas and Reception
 
If you are surprised by my response then you have not been reading my posts and information as you say you have and you are not paying attn to the reactions of the question askers when I do give Detailed Easy To Understand Information about antennas and reception situations.

dcp12345678 19-Jul-2011 2:07 PM

John, based on the comments by Scott that he cannot get the ION station due to the station's low signal and tower height, I just wondered if you had any suggestions on a way to get it? The Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WGPX-TV) says that it only puts out 95kw. It seems to be common in this area where I live to NOT be able to get this station OTA, even with a high end antenna like the Winegard 9095P.

I think it's probably not going to be possible, and I should probably just accept this and be willing to live without this station, but I just wondered if you had any ideas on it. I guess low transmitter power from a station is pretty hard to overcome.

It seems the Antenna Craft U4000 Uhf you recommended should do fine for the stations here locally. If I wanted to try to get some of the farther away stations in Charlotte (about an hour driving distance away from where I live), I guess the Winegard 9095P like Scott has might be ok too.

Thanks to everyone in this thread for all their helpful comments, I'm extremely grateful to all of you.

GroundUrMast 19-Jul-2011 6:41 PM

Given the predicted signal strength and path profile of WGPX, I would be less than 100% certain of a single fixed aim antenna solution. But I would try the 4-bay panel as JC has suggested.

I ran an FM Fool report based on the ZIP code and see that WPTI-94.5 is strong enough to consider as a potential source of harmonic interference. 94.5 MHz * 5 = 472.5 MHz (UHF CH-14 is 470 - 476 MHz).

Worst case you may need a rotator or a dedicated fixed aim antenna like the XG-43 or 91 or 9095 with an FM trap... If I proved that a fixed aim antenna was needed and I needed to split the signal to several sets, I would opt for a high gain antenna rather than use an amp (which would be the likely point for FM IMD to be produced). But again, try the suggested 4-bay panel antenna, there is good reason to expect success. The 4-bay aimed directly at WGPX should be able to drive a couple of sets or more. If you can't find an aim point that works for all the stations of interest, the 4-bay will provide enough information to guide your selection of the solution (rotator or second antenna).

dcp12345678 19-Jul-2011 8:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast (Post 9863)
Given the predicted signal strength and path profile of WGPX, I would be less than 100% certain of a single fixed aim antenna solution. But I would try the 4-bay panel as JC has suggested.

By the one JC recommended, you mean the ClearsStream4 (http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direc...1104088&sr=8-1), right?

The reason I didn't think it would pick up WGPX was because Scott already said he couldn't pick WGPX up with his Winegard 9095P. So are you saying that you think the ClearStream4 has better potential of picking up this station than the Wineguard does?

I would probably just live without WGPX if I had to go with a rotator or multi-antenna solution, as I really want to keep things simple if I can.

John Candle 19-Jul-2011 9:59 PM

Tv Antennas and Reception
 
I did NOT recommend the clearstream four. I said the Antennacraft U4000. I recommend the Antennacraft U4000 because it will receive WXII-DT 31 and WUNL-TV 32 through the back side of the antenna.

GroundUrMast 19-Jul-2011 10:26 PM

@dcp12345678
My observations and suggestions are based on your TVFR, not someone else's. The conditions you face may be similar or dramatically different than your neighbor's. ***UPDATE*** The TV Fool database was using information based on a pending construction permit which will allow WGPX to increase power and antenna height. The earlier signal prediction was stronger than what is actually available.

TV Fool's service is unique, a quantum leap over ZIP code level estimates available elsewhere. Anecdotal reports and reviews are not worthless, however, the precision of your specific TVFR is far more relevant to your situation.

I'm suggesting that you try roof mounting a 4-bay panel antenna. (Antennas Direct or Winegard... your choice). See what you get. If everything goes well you're done. If you don't see WGPX reliably, with the panel facing WGPX, try adding an FM trap, they aren't too expensive. If at this point, WGPX is not rock solid, you'll have enough information to determine if the expense of a few more dB of antenna gain can be justified. Deciding on a two antenna solution vs a rotator solution could then be done with specific local knowledge.

***UPDATE*** TVF staff confirmed and corrected the database error.

GroundUrMast 20-Jul-2011 5:31 AM

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?p=9870#post9870

dcp12345678 20-Jul-2011 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Candle (Post 9865)
I did NOT recommend the clearstream four. I said the U4000. I recommend the U4000 because it will receive WXII-DT 31 and WUNL-TV 32 through the back side of the antenna.

Right, but in your follow up post (see first page of this thread) you mentioned this:

"If you will like to try and receive them any way then a separate antenna can be installed , I suggest a Clear Stream 4 antenna pointed at about 215 degree magnetic compass."

So that's what I was referring to. Of course, I think with the Clearstream4 you only intended for that to be used in a multi-antenna solution.

dcp12345678 20-Jul-2011 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast (Post 9867)
@dcp12345678
try adding an FM trap, they aren't too expensive


Sorry, I'm not sure what that is, can you let me know what you recommend as far as a trap, and also, what models of Wineguard/Antenna Direct 4 bay do you recommend?

GroundUrMast 20-Jul-2011 5:17 PM

First, please run a new TV Fool report, the the database was using information that will become accurate if and when WGPX completes the upgrade authorized in their construction permit. The TVF staff have edited the database to reflect the current power and antenna height of WGPX. Thanks @scott784 for picking up on the problem in the first place.

The Winegard U4000 and Antennas Direct CS-4 are similar in electrical design. Both are examples of 4-bay panel antennas.

Here is an example of an FM trap.

If WGPX-ION is a 'must have', let's look at your updated TVFR before any money is spent.

dcp12345678 20-Jul-2011 6:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast (Post 9876)
First, please run a new TV Fool report, the the database was using information that will become accurate if and when WGPX completes the upgrade authorized in their construction permit. The TVF staff have edited the database to reflect the current power and antenna height of WGPX. Thanks @scott784 for picking up on the problem in the first place.

The Winegard U4000 and Antennas Direct CS-4 are similar in electrical design. Both are examples of 4-bay panel antennas.

Here is an example of an FM trap.

If WGPX-ION is a 'must have', let's look at your updated TVFR before any money is spent.


Updated report is here:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...03f38c6e81fdd6

WGPX-ION is really a station we'd like to get, but I'm not ruling out going OTA if we can't get it.

GroundUrMast 20-Jul-2011 7:12 PM

@dcp12345678, Thanks for the update.

I agree with JC, that a Winegard U4000 facing the group of stations SE of you should also provide reception of the two strong signals from WXII and WUNL to the north of you... all but one of your original 'must have' list.

If you are willing to wait for the folks at WGPX to act on their construction permit you may be able to save the expense of a second antenna. You may want to contact the station to get an idea of the ETA on that upgrade.

If you have the desire to receive the relatively weak signal from WGPX right away, there are at least a couple of approaches to consider.

The first approach would involve a rotator and a high gain antenna such as the Antennas Direct XG-91 (instead of the lower gain 4-bay panel antenna).

The second option would be a two antenna system. The 4-bay design previously described plus the AD XG-91 aimed at WGPX. Combining the signal from both antennas may be possible with a custom built product from TinLee.com but I think an A/B switch would be more practical if you are on a limited budget.

In either case, the antennas need to be outside. You will also need an FM trap inline between the XG-91 and a high input preamp such as the Antennas Direct CPA-19 or Winegard HDP269. Finally, successful reception of WGPX at it's current power and antenna height may require a high mast or tower, due to the low signal strength and 2 edge path profile.

dcp12345678 20-Jul-2011 8:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast (Post 9878)
If you are willing to wait for the folks at WGPX to act on their construction permit you may be able to save the expense of a second antenna. You may want to contact the station to get an idea of the ETA on that upgrade.

I actually found the local station number this time and believer it or not I actually talked to a human! She said she is going to have her engineer call me back and let me know the status, but she didn't know of any plans to update their tower. So I would assume it's probably not something that's going to happen soon, if at all. But I guess the more people that whine about it, the better.

Quote:

The second option would be a two antenna system. The 4-bay design previously described plus the AD XG-91 aimed at WGPX. Combining the signal from both antennas may be possible with a custom built product from TinLee.com but I think an A/B switch would be more practical if you are on a limited budget.
Can you tell me a little about these signal combiners? Are there any you recommend? I really want to keep things simple with the TV, without having to deal with rotators, A/B switches, etc. In other words, I would probably just live without WGPX if it meant having to use an A/B switch or rotator.

Quote:

In either case, the antennas need to be outside. You will also need an FM trap inline between the XG-91 and a high input preamp such as the Antennas Direct CPA-19 or Winegard HDP269. Finally, successful reception of WGPX at it's current power and antenna height may require a high mast or tower, due to the low signal strength and 2 edge path profile.
I live in a 2 story house. What kind of height are you thinking here? I think the FCC law only allows me to go 12 feet above the roofline (http://transition.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html). Is that your understanding?

If I decide to just give up on WGPX but do want to go with a higher powered antenna to get some of the farther away stations, like in Charlotte for example, would going with the XG-91 as a single antenna solution be the way to go, or would it be better to go with a 4 bay solution like the Wineguard or Clearstream4?

Also, on a slightly unrelated topic, do these antenna(e) need to be grounded? What's the best way to do that? Could I ground it somewhere in the attic (e.g it would be mounted on the the roof, and the cable would come into the attic where from there I would drop it down to my living room.

John Candle 20-Jul-2011 11:25 PM

Tv Antennas and Reception
 
It is interesting how easy people are distracted. Go ahead and get the other antennas that the others are suggesting. This is what I recommend and the reasons why. I said the Antennacraft U4000. I recommend the Antennacraft U4000 because it will receive WXII-DT 31 and WUNL-TV 32 through the back side of the antenna. I will not provide any more information because you are so easy distracted , no crying if the the wrong choice of antenna is made.

dcp12345678 21-Jul-2011 1:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Candle (Post 9880)
I will not provide any more information because you are so easy distracted , no crying if the the wrong choice of antenna is made.

John,

I really hope you will reconsider and continue to provide information, I value everyone's input here and am just trying to make the right decision. I mean, it turns out that the TV Fool database was wrong on the ION station in our area, and it was able to be corrected as a result of this thread, which in my opinion, seems like a good thing.

Anyway, I'm sorry if you're offended, but at any rate, I really appreciate the info you've provided so far, it has been really helpful. And the U4000 is definitely at the top of my list for antenna choices, I'm just trying to determine if there are some other options to get ION given that the TV Fool DB was incorrect for my location, and that is what your original recommendations were based on.

GroundUrMast 21-Jul-2011 4:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcp12345678 (Post 9879)
...

Can you tell me a little about these signal combiners? Are there any you recommend? I really want to keep things simple with the TV, without having to deal with rotators, A/B switches, etc. In other words, I would probably just live without WGPX if it meant having to use an A/B switch or rotator.

...

Tinlee.com is a source of CATV and MATV grade filters. The AC7-Series Antenna Signal Combiner (spec'd for real channel 14) is the item I had in mind earlier. It is a three port filter. One port for a single channel input another port for a broadband antenna source and the third port for the combined output. You would need to contact them for pricing and availability. It offers to combine signals from two sources so that rotating or switching is not required by the viewer.

Quote:

... I live in a 2 story house. What kind of height are you thinking here? I think the FCC law only allows me to go 12 feet above the roofline (http://transition.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html). Is that your understanding? ...
I don't read that as a limit... It simply means that the FCC will allow a local jurisdiction to require a permit for structures higher than 12'. A tripod and 10' mast on top of a 2nd storry roof would be the envy of many OTA enthusiasts... I suggest you look at the estimated signal of WGPX using the roof peak plus 10' AGL value. If you could afford a tower, plug in the height of that. If you see an increase in NM of a few dB or more, the cost to go higher would likely pay off in reception reliability.

Quote:

If I decide to just give up on WGPX but do want to go with a higher powered antenna to get some of the farther away stations, like in Charlotte for example, would going with the XG-91 as a single antenna solution be the way to go, or would it be better to go with a 4 bay solution like the Wineguard or Clearstream4?
The U4000 and other 4-bay panels will have moderate gain with moderate to wide forward beam width. That's good for seeing widely dispersed strong signals.

The XG-91 is very directional which is how it offers gain in the forward direction... This means it would need to be on a rotator so you could aim it with some precision (presuming it was to receive widely scattered stations). Going after weak signals calls for large high gain antennas like the XG-91 and HD9095P. As I look at the stations to the SW of your location, I see many are affected by co-channel or adjacent-channel interference. That does not automatically make them impossible to receive but would be more reason to look the situation carefully, expecting to need an antenna with high gain and narrow forward beam width.

I don't see a 4-bay antenna as a good choice to go after weak signals affected by interference. As I have already said re. JC's original suggestion, "...try the suggested 4-bay panel antenna, there is good reason to expect success" (with the locals). Now that the TVF database has been edited, "success" will not likely include the weak signal from WGPX using a lone 4-bay... but we can still hope.

Quote:

...do these antenna(e) need to be grounded? What's the best way to do that? Could I ground it somewhere in the attic...
Take a look at this thread. The embedded link to ecmweb.com includes quality illustrations. I recommend that you ground the mast(s) and coax shield(s). I also recommend that you keep ground leads outside the building, even if it's going to require some additional cost in material and labor. Purposely inviting fault current into the building through a ground lead makes no sense to me.

dcp12345678 22-Jul-2011 6:56 PM

Thanks for the detailed reply. Just for fun I plugged in 500 for the AGL value and WGPX comes in great with it that high. I wonder what the neighbors would think if I mounted a 500 foot tower in the yard :). In all seriousness, couldn't get much over 10dB even with a 12 foot above rooftop tower according to the report.

Anyway, thanks again for all the helpful advice, especially John Candle, Scott, and GroundUrMast. I really appreciate it.

GroundUrMast 22-Jul-2011 7:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcp12345678 (Post 9917)
Thanks for the detailed reply. Just for fun I plugged in 500 for the AGL value and WGPX comes in great with it that high. I wonder what the neighbors would think if I mounted a 500 foot tower in the yard :). In all seriousness, couldn't get much over 10dB even with a 12 foot above rooftop tower according to the report.

Anyway, thanks again for all the helpful advice, especially John Candle, Scott, and GroundUrMast. I really appreciate it.

A NM of 10 dB is encouraging, the gain of the antenna adds to that figure, so I say "go for it".


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