Help in Western Montana.
 

Ok so here's the deal and this will be long. I started by using cheap bunny ears and picked up one station, so I though what the heck let's see what we can do with a better antenna. My first choice was the Antennas direct Clearstream 2-V long range UHF/VHF antenna, without doing a tvfool check. The results, I picked up NBC no problem which didn't surprise me since I can get that one with the rabbit ears, and if I angled the antenna at about 45 degrees I picked up ABC/FOX even though that one comes up as grey extreme measures needed. If I took out the angle I picked up CBS/NBC but lost ABC/FOX, and couldn't get PBS at all. So I decided to add the RCA TVPRAMP1R, this gave me a stronger signal for the above mentioned channels but again it was either CBS/NBC or NBC/ABC/FOX and no PBS either way. Next I tried the ClearStream 5 VHF Ultra long range and nothing at all, even with the pre-amp. I'm now using the RCA ANT751, which I understand is also know as the winegard EZ HD Antenna with the RCA pre-amp. I'm able to pick up PBS with a signal of 40 according to my tv screen and 70 for NBC, I can move it slightly and get CBS/CW as well but when do that PBS goes out. I know there is a spread between PBS/NBC and the rest of the stations, and probably can't get all the channels without an antenna rotator. So the main thing I want to know is it possible to get an Antenna that will at minimum pick up NBC,CBS,ABC,FOX or is what I have the best I'm going to get signal wise? Here is my tvfool report, http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46ae259b3338d1

The signal levels shown in your report suggest you need to use a large antenna with UHF and High-VHF capability or a combination of separate single band antennas.

Given the rather extreme terrain in the Missoula area, the accuracy of a prediction may be affected. Your reception experience thus far is encouraging.

Consider the Winegard HD7698P pointed at 314° per a real compass. If you have more than one TV to connect, or more than 50' of coax between the antenna and TV, add an RCA TVPRAMP1R preamplifier.

A premium system would be an Antennacraft Y10713, Antennas Direct 91XG and the TVPRAMP1R. Regardless of which option you choose, the antenna(s) need to be outside, clear of obstructions.

For reception of ,

KPAX VHF high band channel 7 , CBS , CW , MTN.

KECI , VHF high band channel 13 , NBC , Me-Tv.

K08PR , VHF high band channel 08 , PBS , Spokane.

KTMF , UHF channel 23 , ABC , FOX.

Aim a Winegard HD7698P antenna at about 314 degree magnetic compass direction.

Install a Winegard , LNA-200 'Boost' XT amplifier.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

Use a Old School magnetic compass to aim antenna.

_______________________________

And for the reception of .

K14IU-D , UHF channel 14 , is a repeater station for KECI.

KUFM-DT , VHF high band channel 11 , Montana , PBS.

Aim a second Wingard HD7698P antenna at about , 202 degree magnetic compass direction.

Install a Winegard , LNA-200 'Boost' XT amplifier.

____________________________

The 2 antenna are connected to a , Remote control A/B antenna switch ,

http://www.mcmelectronics.com. #32-4425.

____________________________

Each antenna has it's own Winegard LNA-200 'Boost' XT amplifier.

So the , power supply , power injector , preamplifier unit , are connected before the A/B antenna switch.

Thank you for the reply. I was actually already considering the Winegard HD7698P, so I was surprise to see and expert suggest it. The other Antenna I was considering is the HD Stacker Antenna from Denny's TV Antenna's which I understand is made by winegard exclusively for them. I was also considering upgrading my RCA TVPRAMP1R to the Channel Master CM 7777 Titan2 or Winegard AP8275 Chromstar 2000 Series VHF/UHF Pre Amplifier, I'm currently leaning towards the winegard do to cost? Also can you recommend an Antenna rotor since I really do want PBS?

If someone wants to experiment with the Stacker, I won't try to stop them. The HD Stacker has it's fans and some others who would rail against it. I've yet to find credible documentation of it's performance, so I'm inclined to recommend options that have published specifications.

I just ordered a TVPRAMP1R from Amazon... less than $25. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=13530

I'm not impressed with any of the rotators available... until you step up to commercial / HAM grade products. If the HyGain AR-40 is within your budget, I could suggest it in good conscience. http://www.hy-gain.com/Product.php?productid=AR-40

I'm more inclined to recommend a second antenna and tuner: http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=2882 This solution avoids any risk of being stuck with a TV that has to be re-scanned every time you switch antennas or re-aim the antenna.

As I said I already have the TVPRAMP1R I bought it last month from Walmart it seems on but from what I saw it only helped according to my tv's signal meter by about 5 points. Now I know my signal meter on the tv probably isn't the best indicator since anything over 50 gets me a solid picture but thats all I have to go by. This is why I thought maybe a more powerful preamp would be better. As for adding a second Antenna, I think I'll wait and see if I can manage to pick up CBS, NBC, PBS with one antenna while I keep pestering the local ABC to add a relay tower out here. Thanks for the help.

Soap Box Alert...
 

Amplifiers are not a replacement or substitute for the correct antenna, mounted in a location that has adequate signal quality. Signal quality is like water quality... There's a lot of water in the sewage treatment plant, that doesn't mean you would want to drink it. A weak signal free of interference and noise will be easier for a tuner to work with than a bunch of amplified noise and interference with a dab of real signal mixed in.

I realize that much, my main issue with the RCA pre-amp is I have no way of knowing if it's actually working. I set my Antenna up without the preamp installed and the signal difference was almost not noticeable. So how would a person know if the RCA one is correctly working or defective? At least with the winegards I have seen they have a light, and an actual testing procedure to tell if it's doing anything.

You're describing a situation that's quite common. Most TV signal meter functions display a value that's related to the error rate of the received signal. Simply increasing the signal level will not change the error rate if the errors are the result of signal quality at the antenna. A more powerful mix of signal, noise and interference will not be much easier to receive and decode than the weaker version.

If you get no signal through the preamp, you can presume the amplifier is not connected or powered correctly or it has failed internally. That you see signal though it says that it's working.

If the total length of coax is 50' or less, and you are only connecting one TV with a good quality tuner, a preamplifier will add little. A 100' section of RG-6 will have less than 6 dB loss at the highest UHF frequency. At VHF frequencies the loss can be less than the amount of noise created inside a good preamp.

So it sounds like I shouldn't be using one at all then? I'm only connected to 1 tv and have less then 25 feet of brand new RG 6 cable, being in a trailer house I didn't need a long run from the roof to the tv.

It sounds like you have a good quality tuner. Not much to be gained adding an amplifier unless you add a splitter and more cable.

To be honest I didn't know there was much difference, it's a 46 in Sharp aquos quattron from 2010. I only bought it because of the added yellow pixels. But I guess you could be right I mean I can pick up one channel with a $12.00 indoor antenna from walmart, yet antennaweb say's I shouldn't be able to get anything. Oh one more thing to aks I just looked at an Antenna I though about getting since it's cheaper on Amazon it's the Antennacraft heavy duty extreme deep fringe HD1850 for $132 including shipping. Then I can use the other Antenna for my camper.

If you plan to be in areas with broadcasts on real channels 2 through 6, the HD1850 would give you just about the best available performance in that frequency range. It's a big antenna, you'd need to think about protecting it when on the road in the camper.

I think I may have misspoke or your misunderstood me. I was thinking about upgrading to the HD1850 for my home and using my RCA ANT751 on the camper. Correct me if I'm wrong but, I was told I'm in an area where I need a large direction Antenna with a preamp? I received this information from one of my local tv stations, they claim a "deep fringe" antenna will work best. So are they giving me false information on what works best for high VHF? All of my channels in Missoula are VHF except 23.1/23.2 which are ABC/FOX, and I don't really need them since I have them on my SAT. One thing really confusing me is I'm getting KUFM-TV and K14IU-D which are at 202 and 209, When I point my current antenna at 314 give or take a couple degree's in each direction I get nothing even with my antenna being 25 feet in the air. It's so confusing to me, and I'm sorry if all my questions are driving you mad, you've been patient and helpful with my inexperience.

Wow I didn't realize there were two nbc's and two pbs's, I feel dumb now lol! I now now I was getting 14 not 13 and I picked up 23 and 7. Now the hard part will be getting everything at 314 because when I got them before I had the antenna aimed at 314 then tilted toward the sky at about 45 degrees. Does that piece of info change any of the thoughts or suggestions?

Ah... I didn't read carefully. Your patience is equally appreciated. The ANT-751 would make a very good camper antenna.

The HD1850 does qualify as a 'deep fringe' antenna, as does the Winegard HD7698P. A significant difference between the two is that the 1850 has intentional support for real channels 2 through 6, the 7698 does not.

If you know of credible talk about adding one or more translators in your area, and they are likely to be using channel 2 through 6, the 1850 would be worth the money and extra wind load area. Otherwise, I'll stick with my recommendations in post #2 of this thread.

You can click on the call signs of each station on your report to see the path profile. It appears that you are severely shadowed by very tall terrain. You are no doubt needing to tilt the antenna toward the top of the ridge where the signals are diffracting over toward you. I would expect there to be sources of reflected signals also.

Wind Load is also important believe it or not the canyon I live in is very windy in the spring, fall, and winter. The canyon is commonly referred to as the HellGate Canyon and we can see winds up to 40MPH even tucked against the mountain where I am. I'm not wanting to spend thousands mind you, but I do need something that can handle Montana's winters including snow, wind, and freezing temperatures. I even considered that "green dish" but I heard it's more hype then anything.

Just spoke with the fine folks at solid signal and the recommended the Winegard HD 7084P, Attenuator: 1296F, and Amplifier: AP8700.

I'm trying to think of something nice to say about that recommendation, but I'm coming up completely empty. It must have been done by someone who doesn't know an antler from an antenna. An all-channel antenna, a pre-amp, and an attenuator???? Has Michigan passed "medical" pot laws?

Look, you're in a deep, deep valley with granite walls 1000 to 2000' feet tall. The towers are behind the rim of the valley and all you'll ever get are reflections.

Pick a very directional high-VF antenna plus a very directional UHG antenna, a rotor, and a decent sensitive preamp and start experimenting.

I'd suggest either the single antenna already suggested or the premium system of a 10-element Winegard, a 91XG, a PA18 with UVSJ, and a capable rotor. Mount it all up in the air and give it a whirl. you'll get whatever is available, depending on your level of patience.

For shot at reliable reception.

My recommendations are still the same.

When setting up and testing the system , leave the antenna clamps a little loose , tip the front of the antenna/s up so the antenna is pointed at mountain ridge.

When is all adjusted for best reception , then can bend the mast pipe and tighten every thing.

Tv antenna rotators Are Not channel surfing friendly , must wait for antenna to rotate , and Will Be Domestic issues about the direction the antenna is aimed.

Remote control A/B antenna switching Is Channel Surfing Friendly , press the button on the hand held remote control , change antennas and keep on channel surfing.

As ADTech has already said in their own way... Wow, I don't see how they come up with that recommendation...

True, so long as your TV(s) can learn new channels without forgetting those already learned. One of the TV's in our house will not play nice with an A/B switch, it requires a complete rescan when switched to a second antenna.

Ok guy's sorry I took too much faith in the "expert" at solid signal, that's why I posted it here to see if anyone agreed. I'm no expert in Antenna's and I won't claim to be one, which is why I depend on the people of this forum to save me from buying another antenna that will just disappoint me. I've decided to go with the Winegard HD 7698 as suggested. As for using an A/B switch I don't think it will be an issue, I've had my current antenna go funny and the tv had no issue remembering the channels it already had. I'm hoping the same will prove true the OTA tuner for my DishHopper so that I can record, if not I'll have to see if my tv will play nice with an external HD for a PVR setup. Thanks to everyone for the help and advise, I will post my success when the new antenna is up and running. :D

Interesting development in tv reception.
 

I wanted to post a new "issue" to see if others have experienced this. I'm still using my RCA-ANT751 and RCA TVPRAMP 1R, and today I relocated my tv to the opposite side of my mobile home without moving the Antenna. Strangely enough my feeds are coming in stronger, not a lot strong but enough that the picture no longer pixilates. I'm still using the same cable and the same connectors, the only difference is the cable line now runs over the roof of my home to the opposite side and through the opposite wall. I'm curious if this is a common phenomenon?

New Help with Signal in Montana.
 

Ok so I posted on here before and got some help and advise but I need to update the issue's and current setup. I'm currently using a rca ant751 while I wait on a replacement antenna. I was using the rca tvpramp1r and found it was actually lowering my signals according to the tv's on screen meter, so I removed it at returned it. When I say lowered the signal I actually lost all signal to KPAX-DT and dropped the signal on K14IUD from 75-80 to 60-65. Currently I'm receiving a signal of 52 on KPAXDT and 75 on K14IUD, and an intermittent signal of 15 on KUFMTV. The Antenna is actually pointed at 180 rather then the tv fool recommended 314, because when pointed at 314 I receive nothing at all regardless of height of the antenna. I even tried going 30 feet up as nothing, but when pointed at 180 I get the channels mentioned. I did a radar plot using interactive coverage map and even was able to put the pointer right were the antenna is mounted on the house. So I would like anyone willing to help to look over this and help me with a selection of the best antenna/preamp for my situation. I would "ideally" like to receive KPAX-DT, K14IU-D, and KUFM-TV, I found KTMF-DT to be possible occasionally with a Clearstream 2 pointed at roughly 258 degree's and and "pointed" at a 45 degree angle, this channel isn't mandator but would be "nice". http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46ae076714107d Not sure if it's possible to link the Interactive TV Coverage Browser but my coordinates are 46.883643,-113.888187, and based on lots of checking found the antenna needs to be lower rather then higher do to the deep valley I'm in. I forgot to add contrary to TV Fool K14IU-D I actually have line of sight, IE I can look out my door and clearly see the tower, you can even pick it up with cheap rabbit ears, though the signal is usually only around 45-50. Also if it makes any difference when it comes to signals I'm in a trailer park.

Have you made certain that the coax connectors are secure. The symptoms make me suspect a poor shield connection in a connector.

Your actual experience with K14IU-D suggests a UHF antenna smaller than the 91XG may suffice. I still prefer the 91XG for it's ability to tilt (a unique feature designed into the mast-to-boom clamp mechanism. However the Gain of the Antennas Direct DB4e would be on par with the 91XG at that frequency... And it's much more compact than the 91XG. (I own one of each and would not want to part with either.)

That leaves the signals in the range of real CH-7 through 13. The Antennacraft Y10713 is the 'big gun' in that band of frequencies.

I suspect the RCA preamp you got may have had a problem, I've head reports of low quality switches that select combiner and trap configuration. Try the Antennas Direct PA-18 and an external UHF/VHF combiner such as the Antennas Direct EU385CF.

This two antenna approach let's you aim the two antennas independently, a very helpful 'plus' in your situation.

I'm only using dual shield currently, but I did buy a tool kit for RG-6 compression fittings from Home Depot. I followed the instructions to the letter, so I'm guessing I need that Quad shielded RG-6 instead?

I suspected as much with the preamp so I did already return in, thankfully I got it at walmart and they have a 90 day return policy. I considered buying another one but wanted to seek your awesome advice first. As for the antenna the antenna craft Y10713 it's on order already :D. For the UHF I read a comparison here http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparis..._vs_PR9032.htm and wondered your thoughts. I'm not concerned with size, but I have to wonder about the cost difference IE is the Antennas Direct 91XG really worth the 60 dollars more? If you still feel the Antennas Direct 91XG is the better of the two I will take your word for it, since you haven't given me any bad advise at all and full trust your expertise in this. As for the combiner I'm glad you brought it up because that would have been my next question on this post. So either you're just that good at helping us newbies or your have ESP:p

Quad shield is not going to help, the antenna allows desired signal along with whatever interference is in the air into the coax. The extremely small amount of signal or interference that could leak in through the shield of standard coax is already much much less than you need to be concerned with. If the signal meter reading is stable when you wiggle the coax at the connector, it's probably just fine, I've yet to have trouble with any compression style connector. (Crimp connectors are a different story....)

Both the 91XG and PR9032 are designs that covered channels 14 to 69. They both tend to favor the higher channels. If cost is an issue, and you already get K14IU-D with an small indoor antenna, the DB4e would be my choice. It's a newer design, concentrating on real channels 14 to 51, which gives it better performance than older antennas of a similar configuration. The DB4e is also going to have less wind loading.

New Development, I'm now picking up Real Channel 8 which is channel 7 AKA K08PR-D with as well as K14IU-D and KPAX-DT. Signals are as follows with the RCA ANT751 no pre-amp, K08PR-D 48-52, KPAX-DT 48-52, K14IU-D 82-84 based on my tv signal meter. I'm happy with these channels for the time being as I'm trying to convince KTMF-DT to put a repeater onto the same tower as K14IU-D giving me all the locals if I can convince them. Based on these numbers I'm actually happy with my existing antenna but wondered which pre-amp would be based based on these numbers? Obviously I don't need as powerful a pre-amp as I once thought, so should I try another rca tvpramp1r or should I go higher price with the PA18 UHF / VHF Antenna Pre-Amplifier Kit or this might sound crazy but what about the Micron Variable In-Line Amplifier Kit ? I'm curious about the Micron Variable In-Line Amplifier Kit because it has 3 settings. I know I'm getting to be a bit of a pest here so please bare with me if this works I'll be happy. :D

I don't think you're a pest.

If the signals are stable/reliable, and you have no need to run more cable, why add an amplifier at all?

If you plan to add more TVs to your system or change the location of your TV so that more cable is needed, then a preamp may be in order.

If you truly need a preamp due to existing or future cable & splitting losses and are going to stick with one antenna, then opt for the PA-18 which is an excellent weak signal amplifier with very good noise specifications.

If you plan on building a two antenna system such as the DB4e and Y10713, then use a TVPRAMP1R.

Based on the combination of the information in your TV Fool report and your on-site reports, should I move in next door, you'd see my DB4e, Y10713 and TVPRAMP1R hoisted proudly up the mast.

Well I am thinking future here but here's the thing right now I'm only on 1 tv with my system and want to add a tv, the only issue is I'm with DISH rather then directv and the Hopper can only add one OAT Tuner that can show on both tv's but you must watch the same channel so I may later add that other line for the other tv for independent viewing. Until then my line is actually too long, it's about 40 feet long but I only need 25 feet. Do you think I should shorten it? I'm still planning on going to the two antenna set up so I did order a replacement TVPRAMP1R to have on hand when I can afford to get both the DB4e and the Y10713. I plan on getting the Y10713 first since it's cheaper and using the RCA-ANT751 until I can swing the DB4e. Thanks for the help I really to appreciate it. I could live with just the locals from Dish if if wasn't for the sub-channels they don't carry.

This is odd to me but I shorted the cable which was draped across my roof and poof channel 7 which is my other pbs is gone. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought cable only worked as an antenna for UHF signals?

Cable should not be acting as an antenna. Cable should only conduct signal from the antenna to the tuner, with no signal leaking in or out along the way. Only the antenna should behave as an antenna.

This continues to make me wonder about the integrity of the connections between the coax and connectors at each end.

However, the ANT-751 is a much smaller antenna than I would specify for your situation. You may simply be receiving too weak a signal to insure reliable reception %100 of the time.

Well it you ended up being right, I missed something last night the was the cause, our local thermal inversions. I didn't know they would actually cause signal issues. For all my connections I used a kit from DataShark purchased at home depot. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Paladin-D...5#.UkydDijWp7Q

Today I received and installed my AntennaCraft Y10713 and wanted to post my results. KPAX-DT 65%, KECI-TV 65%, KUFM-TV 40%, all based on my tv's signal meter. Now I was able to get KUFM-TV at 70% is I raised the antenna higher but lost all others in the process. Interestingly enough in order to get all channels I'm pointed at 189 degree's. When pointed at the Azimuth listed on my tvfool report I get nothing, I'm assuming this is due to my 2EDGE signals. My next step which many not happen until spring is to add a UHF antenna in the hopes of getting KTMF-DT, of course by then they should have a new owner who will hopefully correct their signal problems. I know people even in town that can't get signal without a large rooftop Antenna, because they use a directional antenna pointed north and located north of town. So I want to say thanks to those who helped me during this process and I'm glad I took the advise on the AntennaCraft Y10713 it works very well and was very affordable from solid signal.

Ok not sure anyone is reading this thread anymore, but if anyone is I have a question to ask that someone I'm sure has already asked. So I'm in an area where in order to get a station I want my report say's I need to take "extreme" measures. Now I know that's not totally true since I was able to pick up this channel using the clearstream 2V from Antennas Direct. The station is KTMF-DT which is my local ABC/FOX station. So my idea is trying to stack two Winegard HD-9023 UHF Prostar 1000's. I know GroundurMast recommended the Antenna's Direct 91XG, but doing some research shows the winegard is just as good for channels under 30, and where I live the highest channel is 23. My thinking is if I take two winegards at $30.00 a piece I get a signal increase of at least 3db at a cost of $60.00 total VS $100.00 for the 91XG. Does anyone have any thoughts, or reasons why my thinking is flawed in this situation? Still living this AntennaCraft Y10713, it's so slick and light. I just wish I had never wasted the $60.00 I spend on that RCA ANT751, considering I spend half that on the Y10713 and it out preforms by miles. Oh and if it's needed again here is my tvfool report http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46ae8383425858

I'm pretty sure you are referring to the HD-9032. (I transpose s'# too.)

If you're game to try your hand at stacking, it's certainly not a far fetched idea.

In practice, don't expect more than 2 dB net gain if you get everything perfect. Before going to all that fuss, I'd try one 9032 just to see if it's fine by itself. ('Keep it simple' if you can.)

That makes sense, I was of course trying to research this on my own as well. I was already planning on trying one antenna first since it seems as you mentioned stacking requires getting everything perfect to get 3 dB at most, I understand that's "ideal" with a Yagi. I also wanted to pose another question since you responded. I'm using that AntennaCraft Y10713 and I do love it, but I'm seeing one "problem". In order to get all KPAX-DT, KECI-TV I need to point at about 185 degree's, I assume this is do to reflection off the mountain I'm pointed at. Now I'm also getting KUFM-TV but the signal is weaker about 37-40 while the others are in the 60's, now if I raise the antenna KUFM-TV jumps to as high as 70 but then KPAX-DT and KECI-TV drop out. Now I'm planning on trying to locate the Antenna to different area's in the hopes it might help, but it's MT and the weather may not allow me to do much before spring, so other then hunting for a better location is there any other option for this? I'll repeat the signals change only by changing height not direction in it's current location. Other then that well let's just say that antenna is my new best friend. ::D

It turns out the co-channel interference I was worried about with KECI and K14IU-D never turned out to be any issue since K14IU-D is so much stronger. This really is do to I think a mess up by tvfool since I'm getting 100% signal with the UHF Antenna at only 20' above ground. I had to set it up this way since KECI was very weak and DISH recently lost carrier rights with KECI in Missoula. So My next issue is an actual adjacent channel issue that turns out only happens when there is an inversion or extreme cold IE 10 degree's or colder. The channels are KPAX-DT which is on real channel 7 but Virtual Channel 8.1 which in the right conditions is low enough in signal strength that it fights with K32EU which is actually broadcast on 7.1 real channel 8 (tvfool lists the virtual channel as 32.1 which is incorrect). Is there a way to block out K32EU? Or do I need to add a second AntennaCraft y10-7-13? If I need to add this second Antenna would I mount is next to the current or above/below the one I'm already using? One other question in regard to UHF antenna's, I've heard the bay style antenna's work better for 2Edge then Yagi? If this is true can anyone recommend which was to consider/avoid? I was considering the Solid Signal HDB8X or the Channel Master CM4228HD since the DB8 appears to work better for channels over 40 and my highest UHF channel is real channel 23.