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-   -   Low success with over the air (OTA) in my upcoming house? (http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=7123)

ant 20-Feb-2012 1:57 AM

Low success with over the air (OTA) in my upcoming house?
 
Howdy.

Does it look like I won't be able to get many over OTA feeds in my upcoming home in La Habra Heights, CA 90631 on the wrong side of the big hills/small mountains facing Mount/Mt. Wilson for Los Angeles/L.A.'s transmitters?

I borrowed a portable 7" DTV with a rabbit ear's single/one antenna. I only got channel 31.x indoor (kitchen next to its big windows) and outdoor on the front side (garage, kitchen window, etc.) of the house I could face on the sloped/tilted ground level. I also sort of got more channels, but sort of stable with FOX 11.x and KABC 7.x if I am outside in front of the house's garage and facing Mount Wilson's direction(?) (forgot to bring a compass to get its exact direction). I had to face the big hills/mountains away from the neighbor's big house. I also noticed the trees were much taller than the houses. I wonder if it possible to stick an antenna up there on their main trunks (they're not higher than the huge hills though). Is that possible?

Also, can I use that existing satellite dish to act like an OTA antenna? For kicks, I tried hooking up it up to the portable DTV and it can pick up channel 31.x like the antenna! And no, it can't get it without coax port connected. Also, the sky was cloudy and started to clear out if that matters.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...40330909db0c9f (tried adjusting height and need about 188 feet to get all the ones I want in green color!)
http://i.imgur.com/q7LS4.jpg (antennaweb)
http://i.imgur.com/KWz13.gif (location on Google Maps)
http://i.imgur.com/LTao8.jpg (aerial shot of the rooftop -- note the existing satellite dish from the previous home owner)
http://i.imgur.com/seYcH.jpg to show all the trees (very tall!) in front of the house (right side).
http://i.imgur.com/uRTeb.jpg (zoomed out 45 degrees aerial shot with house on the bottom right corner)
http://i.imgur.com/vXboD.jpg (Google Earth's elevation shot of Mt. Wilson and home)
http://i.imgur.com/XThYd.jpg (Street View of more trees on west side of the house)

Thank you in advance. :)

Electron 20-Feb-2012 3:39 AM

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 
Make 2 more tvfool radar reports , one at 25 feet antenna height and one at 40 feet antenna height.

ant 20-Feb-2012 3:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electron (Post 20377)
Make 2 more tvfool radar reports , one at 25 feet antenna height and one at 40 feet antenna height.

25 ft.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86cb35bdb459

40 ft.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86ddb20485e8

Still bad. It looks like I need to be at least 188 ft. have green color for the channels/stations I want. :(

phone man 20-Feb-2012 3:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ant (Post 20379)
25 ft.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86cb35bdb459

40 ft.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86ddb20485e8

Still bad. It looks like I need to be at least 188 ft. have green color for the channels/stations I want. :(

Lack of green just means you have to work harder and every db counts. With the right equipment and conditions you generally stand a chance of receiving channels down to 0 NM(db) and sometimes into the the negative numbers on your TVfool report. The report takes topography into account but not trees or buildings. Click a station on your report and you'll see how the mountains and hills affect the signal. I noticed with more antenna height, some San Diego channels popped up on your report. That's a long haul but apparently elevation makes it a remote possibility. Do any of your neighbors have a tall antenna? If so, ask them about their OTA set up and the stations they're receiving.

The only thing you can reuse from the previous satellite setup would be the coax assuming it's RG-6 and not too old. Be sure no old satellite equipment or unused coax runs are connected.

ant 20-Feb-2012 7:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phone man (Post 20388)
Lack of green just means you have to work harder and every db counts. With the right equipment and conditions you generally stand a chance of receiving channels down to 0 NM(db) and sometimes into the the negative numbers on your TVfool report. The report takes topography into account but not trees or buildings. Click a station on your report and you'll see how the mountains and hills affect the signal. I noticed with more antenna height, some San Diego channels popped up on your report. That's a long haul but apparently elevation makes it a remote possibility. Do any of your neighbors have a tall antenna? If so, ask them about their OTA set up and the stations they're receiving.

The only thing you can reuse from the previous satellite setup would be the coax assuming it's RG-6 and not too old. Be sure no old satellite equipment or unused coax runs are connected.

I did not see any outdoor antennae around that house on the big hill/small mountain. I saw a lot of satellite dishes which is a bad sign. The ones without them might be using cable since TWC is available in that area too.

Tower Guy 21-Feb-2012 3:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ant (Post 20374)
Howdy.

Does it look like I won't be able to get many over OTA feeds in my upcoming home in La Habra Heights, CA 90631 on the wrong side of the big hills/small mountains?

I'd wouldn't be too concerned about height, but I would be about directivity of the antenna and it's location.

I'd go with a two antenna combo, one for VHF and one for UHF. The UHF would be a 91XG. I'd mount it on the roof in a location where you can exeriment on the height to maximize the signal on your weakest UHF station. Next I'd get a Y10-7-13 for VHF. I'd use a 7777 preramp to combine the antennas.

ant 21-Feb-2012 5:22 PM

[QUOTE=Tower Guy;20420]
Quote:

Originally Posted by ant (Post 20374)
Howdy.

Does it look like I won't be able to get many over OTA feeds in my upcoming home in La Habra Heights, CA 90631 on the wrong side of the big hills/small mountains?
[\QUOTE]

I'd wouldn't be too concerned about height, but I would be about directivity of the antenna and it's location.

I'd go with a two antenna combo, one for VHF and one for UHF. The UHF would be a 91XG. I'd mount it on the roof in a location where you can exeriment on the height to maximize the signal on your weakest UHF station. Next I's get a Y10-7-13 for VHF. I'd use a 7777 preramp to combine the antennas.

Yikes, two big roof top antennae on the roof top? So they don't make combined one antenna with both UHF and VHF?

ADTech 21-Feb-2012 6:45 PM

[QUOTE=ant;20422]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tower Guy (Post 20420)
Yikes, two big roof top antennae on the roof top? So they don't make combined one antenna with both UHF and VHF?

Sure they do. It's 14' long!

ant 21-Feb-2012 7:07 PM

[QUOTE=ADTech;20426]
Quote:

Originally Posted by ant (Post 20422)

Sure they do. It's 14' long!

Woah, almost three times tall as me (yeah, I am short)! I don't think that's taller than the trees and giant hills/small mountains over there though. :(

ADTech 21-Feb-2012 8:05 PM

I observed that the comparable antenna to a combination of a 10-element H-VHF Yagi and a 91XG would be a single antenna that is 14' long.

Electron 21-Feb-2012 9:00 PM

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 
This recommendation is based on the current plus Pending Applications Included for 02-21-2012. The first post shows a default antenna height of 10 feet and does not show the the tv stations/channels to the south-east. The 25 foot and 40 foot antenna heights show the the tv stations/channels to the south-east. Going to 40 feet has a Very Small advantage over 25 feet for signal strength. I recommend mounting 2 antennas no less then 25 feet above ground. 25 feet is about the height of a antenna mounted above a roof of a single story house. I see no CBS or PBS tv stations at 327 degree magnetic compass , there are CBS and PBS stations at about 133 degree magnetic compass. So 2 antennas will need to be installed. The first antenna is a Winegard HD7082P antenna aimed at about 327 degree magnetic compass. The second antenna is a Winegard HD7698P antenna aimed at about 133 degree magnetic compass. I do not recommend a preamp for either antenna because UHF channel 23 at 9 degrees magnetic compass is a Very Strong signal and will likley overload a preamp and be the cause of bad or no reception of some channels.

Electron 21-Feb-2012 9:25 PM

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 
The 2 antennas will have Separate coax that go to the location of the tv. The 2 coaxes will not be connected on to one coax , Connecting the 2 antennas on to one coax will cause cross talk between the 2 antennas and the reception will not be good. 2 separate coaxes will go to the location of the tv and be connected to a Radio Shack 15-1968 remote control A/B switch antenna switch , the output of the A/B switch will connect to the tv. Separate the the antennas by about 3 feet if mounted on the same mast. Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html. Here are places to buy antennas and etc. , http://www.winegarddirect.com , http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www.amazon.com. As examples here are some Strong and Sturdy antenna mounts , http://www.ronard.com/909911.html , http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html , http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html , http://www.ronard.com. Can find the antenna mounts at solidsignal by typing , ronard , in the search box at solidsignal or buy from ronard.

phone man 22-Feb-2012 1:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electron (Post 20434)
I see no CBS or PBS tv stations at 327 degree magnetic compass , there are CBS and PBS stations at about 133 degree magnetic compass. So 2 antennas will need to be installed. The first antenna is a Winegard HD7082P antenna aimed at about 327 degree magnetic compass. The second antenna is a Winegard HD7698P antenna aimed at about 133 degree magnetic compass. I do not recommend a preamp for either antenna because UHF channel 23 at 9 degrees magnetic compass is a Very Strong signal and will likley overload a preamp and be the cause of bad or no reception of some channels.



I like your dedicated two antenna solution or Tower Guy's separate VHF, UHF combined into a preamp along with a rotator to turn and pick up CBS, NBC, PBS and maybe even CW from San Diego.

But, I must be missing something. I don't see the strong UHF channel you mentioned at 9 degrees. This guy is gonna need a preamp, no?

Electron 22-Feb-2012 3:35 AM

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 
Click on the Pending Applications Included Only Digital Channels for the UHF 23 channel. And as for a Channel Master CM9521A rotor and one antenna. Rotors are not friendly for channel surfing , must wait for the antenna to rotate. A 2 antenna set up with a hand held remote control to switch antennas is friendly for channel surfing.

phone man 22-Feb-2012 3:42 AM

Ouch! Pending broadcast tower .5 miles away. That would spoil it.

Electron 22-Feb-2012 3:51 AM

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 
It will not spoil reception , it means No preamps. With the 2 antenna set up and the antennas no less then 25 feet high above ground , the tv stations/channels , main digital channels and sub channels will be received in the green reception zone the yellow reception zone and down to at least KNBC 36 NBC in the red reception zone and possibly even down to XHDTV-DT 47 MyNetwork in the red reception zone.

ant 24-Feb-2012 2:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electron (Post 20465)
It will not spoil reception , it means No preamps. With the 2 antenna set up and the antennas no less then 25 feet high above ground , the tv stations/channels , main digital channels and sub channels will be received in the green reception zone the yellow reception zone and down to at least KNBC 36 NBC in the red reception zone and possibly even down to XHDTV-DT 47 MyNetwork in the red reception zone.

Hmm, maybe I should wait until this is set up? If I do it before it, then I might be wasting time and money?

Also, I added more shots:
http://i.imgur.com/uRTeb.jpg (zoomed out 45 degrees aerial shot with house on the bottom right corner)
http://i.imgur.com/vXboD.jpg (Google Earth's elevation shot of Mt. Wilson and home)
http://i.imgur.com/seYcH.jpg (Street View of trees in front of the house facing Mt. Wilson's direction)
http://i.imgur.com/XThYd.jpg (Street View of more trees on west side of the house)

phone man 24-Feb-2012 3:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ant (Post 20526)
Hmm, maybe I should wait until this is set up? If I do it before it, then I might be wasting time and money?

When I said "spoil it", I meant it would spoil the use of a preamp, not TV reception in general. Not being able to use a preamp could mean the difference in a weak channel that drops out frequently or one that has some margin above drop outs and can be viewed most of the time.

About the pending broadcast tower. I would try to find out what pending actually means in this case. Is it a for sure situation or does it just mean they have applied for and have plans for a tower sometime in the future, maybe years from now if ever.
The only difference in cost would be whether or not you have the preamp, $30 and up depending on what you get. The rest of the set up is the same.

ant 24-Feb-2012 3:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phone man (Post 20527)
When I said "spoil it", I meant it would spoil the use of a preamp, not TV reception in general. Not being able to use a preamp could mean the difference in a weak channel that drops out frequently or one that has some margin above drop outs and can be viewed most of the time.

About the pending broadcast tower. I would try to find out what pending actually means in this case. Is it a for sure situation or does it just mean they have applied for and have plans for a tower sometime in the future, maybe years from now if ever.
The only difference in cost would be whether or not you have the preamp, $30 and up depending on what you get. The rest of the set up is the same.

Ah OK and thanks. :)

ADTech 24-Feb-2012 4:30 PM

In march of 2010, KVMD out of 29 Palms applied to build a distributed transmission system (DTS) with one of their transmitters located in La Habra Heights. From what I can see in the FCC's system, it's just sitting out there as an application. After almost two years, I wouldn't be surprised if it's dead.

ant 27-Feb-2012 7:28 AM

OK, we are going to try it ourselves without professional installers and with smaller to see if they get anything. Would http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...rodid=11646220 be a good choice to start from Costco?

If not, then what specific ones to get that are returnable from local retail stores to see, buy, and be able to return easily if these don't work.

Also, where can I find professional antennae installers for La Habra Heights, CA 90631?

MisterMe 27-Feb-2012 3:52 PM

OK. There are three obvious problems here. The first is that Costco is charging $10 over Winegard's price for the FV-HD30. The second is that you have chosen an antenna that is better for line-of-sight locations whereas you have a mountain between the transmission towers and your home. You have chosen a J-mount mast which will probably limit your antenna height to 15-20 feet whereas you need to mount your antenna as high as you can get it.

The FV-HD30 is a good antenna, but it is not a good antenna for you.

Electron 27-Feb-2012 4:26 PM

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 
As a test , Yes put the antenna up and see what can be received.

Electron 27-Feb-2012 4:54 PM

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 
The FCC web site shows that KVMD is transmitting. http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tv...=0&facid=16729

ADTech 27-Feb-2012 6:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electron (Post 20618)
The FCC web site shows that KVMD is transmitting. http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tv...=0&facid=16729

Yes, they have filed a license to cover their primary site that covers the city of license, Twentynine Palms. If you scroll further down that page, you'll see all the pending applications for the multiple locations for their proposed distributed transmission system that would have covered much of the Los Angeles metro area.

There is already a channel 23 licensed to Mt Wilson and another STA for La Habra Heights (KSGA-LD) which re-broadcasts KVMD. KSGA-LD has applied to move to UHF-30.

Given the overlapping and contradictory information in the FCC's database, I don't know what to believe might actually be on the air in the OP's neighborhood. Someone local to the area would need to provide first-person details.

ant 27-Feb-2012 6:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADTech (Post 20625)
Yes, they have filed a license to cover their primary site that covers the city of license, Twentynine Palms. If you scroll further down that page, you'll see all the pending applications for the multiple locations for their proposed distributed transmission system that would have covered much of the Los Angeles metro area.

There is already a channel 23 licensed to Mt Wilson and another STA for La Habra Heights (KSGA-LD) which re-broadcasts KVMD. KSGA-LD has applied to move to UHF-30.

Given the overlapping and contradictory information in the FCC's database, I don't know what to believe might actually be on the air in the OP's neighborhood. Someone local to the area would need to provide first-person details.

All I know there were about nine subchannels (foreigns including Chinese). What else to check for with a portal TV with basic antennae?

ant 27-Feb-2012 6:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electron (Post 20616)
As a test , Yes put the antenna up and see what can be received.

OK unless there is another antenna I can get. It will be on one of the weekends...

MisterMe 27-Feb-2012 7:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ant (Post 20627)
All I know there were about nine subchannels (foreigns including Chinese). What else to check for with a portal TV with basic antennae?

KVMD RF-23 broadcasts ten sub channels--all at 480i--using Virtual Channel 31. Its programming consists of sub channels dedicated to PBS and various foreign languages including Chinese and Armenian.

ant 27-Feb-2012 7:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterMe (Post 20629)
KVMD RF-23 broadcasts ten sub channels--all at 480i--using Virtual Channel 31. Its programming consists of sub channels dedicated to PBS and various foreign languages including Chinese and Armenian.

Yeah, that sounds about right.

ant 27-Feb-2012 7:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADTech (Post 20625)
Yes, they have filed a license to cover their primary site that covers the city of license, Twentynine Palms. If you scroll further down that page, you'll see all the pending applications for the multiple locations for their proposed distributed transmission system that would have covered much of the Los Angeles metro area.

There is already a channel 23 licensed to Mt Wilson and another STA for La Habra Heights (KSGA-LD) which re-broadcasts KVMD. KSGA-LD has applied to move to UHF-30.

Given the overlapping and contradictory information in the FCC's database, I don't know what to believe might actually be on the air in the OP's neighborhood. Someone local to the area would need to provide first-person details.

Where exactly is this STA in La Habra Heights? http://www.kvmdtv.com/code/coverage_m.html doesn't show it. That explains why I pick this 31.x so easily compared to others. I wonder if it is the same antenna tower I saw near by. I noticed this tower in the short NE distance: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/o...l/33774086.jpg ... http://www.antennasearch.com/sitesta...number=1013567 says a radio transmitter for a small college? Maybe this is not it? I wished I could stick my antenna up there. ;)

ADTech 27-Feb-2012 8:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ant (Post 20631)
Where exactly is this STA in La Habra Heights? http://www.kvmdtv.com/code/coverage_m.html doesn't show it.

See this page: http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=5342 It has the coordinates for the transmitter site. The second photo matches the satellite overhead.

Quote:

I had a conversation with Ken Brown the Chief Engineer , KVMD. I am composing the results of the conversation , I will return.
Excellent. That should answer questions and clear confusion.

ant 27-Feb-2012 8:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADTech (Post 20634)
See this page: http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=5342 It has the coordinates for the transmitter site. The second photo matches the satellite overhead...

Ah hah! That's it! It is about a half of a mile in NE then. Heh, let's bring the rest of the stations over to this area. [grin] It was interesting that http://www.antennasearch.com/sitesta...number=1013567 does not say much about it as a TV translator.

Electron 27-Feb-2012 10:26 PM

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 
KSMV , KVMD , KIMG , KSGA , are 4 Tv transmitters that will cover most of costal / mountain areas of southern Ca. When all 4 are transmitting. Towers and transmission equipment is in place and has been tested , Waiting for the FCC approval. Currently KSMV at Mount Wilson is the only one that is transmitting on UHF23. Even so , my recommendation for tv reception still stands. The Tv stations/channels to the south east are , CBS , Me-TV , ABC , The Cool Tv , Azteca America , FOX , Antenna Tv , This Tv , Independent channel , NBC , PBS , XHDTV.

Electron 27-Feb-2012 10:41 PM

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 
The Tv stations/channels to the north west that can received are , ABC , The Live Well Network , FOX , Independent Channel , MyNetwork , Bounce Tv , Retro Tv Network , AMG Tv , America One , Tr3's , Telemundo , NBC , CW , Antenna Tv , This Tv , TBN.

Electron 27-Feb-2012 10:49 PM

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 
Of all the Main digital channels and digital sub channels to the north west and south east , I only see one CBS channel and that is to the south east , KFMB digital channel 8 CBS with digital sub channel Me-Tv.

Electron 27-Feb-2012 10:52 PM

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 
If you will like to install one antenna to begin with , I recommend a HD7084P antenna. You can aim it to the north west or south east.

Electron 27-Feb-2012 10:54 PM

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 
How many Tv's are/will be connected??

ant 28-Feb-2012 3:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tower Guy (Post 20420)
I'd wouldn't be too concerned about height, but I would be about directivity of the antenna and it's location.

I'd go with a two antenna combo, one for VHF and one for UHF. The UHF would be a 91XG. I'd mount it on the roof in a location where you can exeriment on the height to maximize the signal on your weakest UHF station. Next I'd get a Y10-7-13 for VHF. I'd use a 7777 preramp to combine the antennas.

Do local retail stores carry these types and similiar indoor house antennae to use like in the attic that is returnable easily like at Best Buy, Fry's Electronics, Costco, etc.?

ant 28-Feb-2012 3:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electron (Post 20640)
How many Tv's are/will be connected??

4-5 probably. All CRT currently though. We will get HDTVs later on. For now, let's concentrate on getting the local broadcast channels.

ant 28-Feb-2012 3:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electron (Post 20639)
If you will like to install one antenna to begin with , I recommend a HD7084P antenna. You can aim it to the north west or south east.

Cool, they have this in my local Fry's Electronics store (returnable), but not Best Buy. Do I assume this one can be used indoor like in the attic too?


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