Help needed in Fountain Hills, AZ
I am posting this message so as to get input from others as this
person is not yet able to make their own posts. My first inclination would be to say you've done a whole lot of things correctly. The antenna, short cable runs, etc, etc are all signs you have a very good knowledge of broadcast reception. With that said, how did you come about with the placement of your tower??? Was the placement due to convenience or some other priority??? Have you tried receiving all your television from Tucson??? I have seen many, many times where Tucson get a better signal to Ftn. Hills than Phoenix stations on South Mtn?? Lets hear from some of our experts on this!!!!!!!!! Greeting from Fountain Hills Hi, I'm in Fountain Hills AZ trying to get a reliable signal on Channel 12. I've got mountains and a neighbors house causing problems. Prior to the neighbors house being there I was getting a signal at a much lower height. Now 58' AGL gets it, 54' AGL doesn't. Antenna is currently down to about 33' AGL for maintenance and monsoon season. At 33' I lose Ch 3 (23) as well as 12. Antenna is a Winegard HD7698, 50' cable run to a Channel Plus DA-506BID DA to 4 TVs in the house. I just climbed off the tower to disconnect a Lime PA which Solid Signals had on sale, thought I'd give it a try. I could seen no difference in the system with the rudimentary signal strength meters at my disposal. In fact I lost Ch 5 (17), 60 mins didn't record last night. Thus I took the Juice PA off line. It looks like I need higher gain in at the antenna level. This is a PM because I see you're from AZ and have had some insightful posts. I can't post to the forum, I applied 4 weeks ago but haven't been activated yet which is a bit frustrating. I'm getting ready to put the antenna back up (with new guy wires, that and the monsoons inspired me to take it down to 33') I'd love to get the experts insights as to how I might be able to increase my antenna gain but it's football season so the antenna needs to get back up. :-) By the way, I can't get 3 (24) at 33' but I can get Tucson 4 (23), go figure. :-) Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this. Here's my location report http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90386d3aea6f11 |
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http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...7&d=1536333863
TVFool report link doesn't work, Joe; it's broken in the middle. You must have done a copy and paste. Is this it? http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90386d3aea6f11 Is there any chance you can ask (insert his username here) the exact coordinates of his antenna and give them to me by PM, so that I can look at the satellite view? |
Rabbit73,
I've asked for our new member to PM you directly. |
Couple of comments, even thought the OP is not able to reply directly. You're welcome to reply via PM (if it works) and I'll paste in any replies:
1. "I applied 4 weeks ago but haven't been activated yet" - Been a lot of that going on for a couple of years. Sadly, it seems the site owner no longer has either the time or inclination to manage either the site or the underlying database. Hasn't been a moderator present for several years, the last two apparently drifted away (or whatever). 2. "Channel Plus DA-506BID DA" - I've never heard of it, but its published specs don't leave me impressed as far as its maximum input power. 3. "Lime PA which Solid Signals had on sale" - Surely a typo as I can't find anything on the SS website called by that name. 4. "It looks like I need higher gain in at the antenna level" - Both unlikely and probably impractical. Your existing antenna is about as good as it can get in regards to net gain on high-VHF short of either building your own or building a dedicated array of multiple high-VHF band antennas. There is a Chinese-made import that's being sold by various sellers, but it is not clearly documented as to what to expect from it in regards to performance. 5. "Prior to the neighbors house being there I was getting a signal at a much lower height. Now 58' AGL gets it, 54' AGL doesn't." - Sounds more like you have a location problem than anything else. Relocating a tower is not easy, but it likely what you need to do. 6. You have an FM station (105.9) very close by that would suggest that an FM trap would be prudent. While it's frequency is such that its 2nd harmonic doesn't fall into the channel 12 bandwidth, it's pretty close and there is a potential for it mixing with some other nearby signal to produce intermodulation products within the channel 12 bandwidth. It's also possible that it's forcing your aim into some compression and that's causing the difficulties with channel 12. Like I said, a trap would be "prudent" but the math isn't crystal clear as an indicator. The hard part would locating the trap, sometimes you can find left over Radio Shack units on ebay. I also have no idea how the 7698 would react to FM signals but I suspect it would receive them rather strongly but at odd angles to the expected performance that is documented. Of course, since FM is out of the design band for that antenna, Winegard did not document that particular aspect of its performance. |
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I hope he knows that he has a limit of 5 PMs before he is authorized to post. If he needs to continue a PM conversation, he has to copy and save earlier PMs, and then delete them. Good advice above from ADTech. Quote:
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It's not clear to me what is connected to what and how long the coax lines are. Something like this? 7698 > preamp > coax 50 ft > grounding block > preamp power inserter > distribution amp > TVs Quote:
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Another possibility is FM interference. You have a strong local FM signal that can interfere with the reception of 12. I did an FMFool report based on an estimated location derived from your TVFool report because I don't have your address or the exact coordinates of your antenna. It shows that KHOT-FM at -13.7 dBm is strong enough to interfere with 12. http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/7...d/Radar-FM.png The Juice preamp doesn't have an FM filter, but it does have an LTE filter; there wasn't room in the case for both. For some weird reason ADTech's boss decided to discontinue their FM filter. https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...on_filter.html And what is even more weird, their UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner is out of stock: https://www.antennasdirect.com/store..._combiner.html His boss doesn't seem to understand that having those two items in stock encourages the sale of their antennas. Rant over. Anyway, you can use a HLSJ, high section, as an FM filter: https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=zhlsj Order two; you might need two in series between the antenna and the preamp if my estimate is correct. And the coax must be grounded with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground to help reject interference. |
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Rant rebuttal over. Quote:
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OK Guys, rant and rebuttals aside, I want to draw your attention to the TV Fool
report that indicates KVOA, NBC 4 Tucson, on Rf 23. The Tucson stations on Mt. Bigelow appear unrecoverable in the report yet they do manage to be received in Ftn. Hills. My "take" on this is that the TV Fool report is erroneous. The Phoenix stations are over-represented and the Tucson stations under represented. Since the Tucson stations are being received consistently, how can this be tropo? Your thoughts??? |
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Antennas Direct was the last regular supplier of FM traps, which are vital for good reception at some locations. Is there some reason why Antennas Direct can't sell them at a price point that would be profitable? The former price point was so low that it was obviously unprofitable. There doesn't seem to much competition now for that device. Quote:
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It is well known that the reports are much less accurate for 1Edge and 2Edge signals than for LOS signals because of limitations in the software used to generate the reports. This is an extract of the report: http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...2&d=1536461615 For comparison I did a rabbitears.info report based on my estimate of his location: http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...9&d=1536458700 Next, I did terrain profiles of the two channels: http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...0&d=1536458744 http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1536458773 In the KTVK terrain profile the signal grazes the surface just before the receiving antenna, which causes a lot of scattering of the signal much like multipath. Raising the antenna helps a lot to reduce the scattering received and helps the signals clear the neighbor's house. The KVOA signal only has to make it over one peak. My theory to explain the paradox consists of two parts: 1. The KTVK signal is deflected from its path to the receiving antenna by a temperature inversion that is formed in the terrain bowl between the transmitter and the first peak. 2. The KVOA signal enters a high altitude duct because the transmitting antenna is at a high altitude. This duct, acting like permanent Tropo, carries the weaker KVOA signal much further, before refraction bends it down to the receiving antenna. My advice is to raise the antenna as high as possible, add a preamp, and insert an FM filter between the antenna and the preamp. The coax must be grounded with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground. If 12 is still a problem, suspect local electrical interference. |
From niv by PM:
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I think the coax should be grounded with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground for electrical safety and to help reject interference. Please let me know if you can see the images I posted: a map in post #2 and 2 reports and 2 terrain profiles in post #9. In the past, a poster who was not yet able to post could not see images derived from an attachment. If you can't see them, I can show them another way using my image host. In your case, you need to do all of the modifications suggested for optimum results. A preamp is needed because your signals are weak, an FM filter is needed to reduce FM interference, and grounding the coax is needed to reject interference. If you leave any one of them out, you reduce your chances for improved reception. You mention an attenuator after the power inserter. How many dB is it and why is it there? A corrected FM report shows KHOT FM at -14.0 dBm instead of -13.7 dBm; still very strong. http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/6...2/Radar-FM.png |
Rabbit73, AdTech and others, thanks so much for your
help. It is ALWAYS appreciated, even if we should disagree. |
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From niv by PM:
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I'd really start with the FM trap (or HLSJs) on the input of the Juice. For convenience, I'd also leave the PA at the base of the tower since I'm also getting too old to climb ladders unnecessarily. The insertion loss of that downlead prior to the amp would just be a necessary evil that could be later addressed when details are finally ironed out. Note: I've turned off my private messaging again due to a persistent spammer. |
From niv by PM:
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This map is in post #2: https://i.imgur.com/Q7tKKF7.jpg These two report images are in post #9: https://i.imgur.com/tOsB2Pd.jpg https://i.imgur.com/HbF40QQ.jpg and these two terrain profiles are also in post #9: https://i.imgur.com/zbTotBR.jpg https://i.imgur.com/U1CyUC9.jpg and one new one: https://i.imgur.com/d7MokZo.jpg Can you see them now, niv? |
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https://i.imgur.com/cRvM5nC.jpg https://i.imgur.com/crhaqzR.jpg https://i.imgur.com/RortvGU.jpg |
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Glad that you can now see the photos. |
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Sounds like the LG has the best tuner. |
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https://i.imgur.com/725Q3OB.jpg They look OK to me, but what are these extra wires? Are they connected to the coax downlead for the antenna? https://i.imgur.com/ku2YPOX.jpg |
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