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rabbit73 3-Nov-2017 8:17 PM

Weak Signal SNR Measurements
 
2 Attachment(s)
Background:

When giving weak signal reception advice, I have been saying:

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbit73
It is not possible to receive a signal with a NM below -15 dB. If you are able to receive a signal with a NM below -15 dB, either the TVFool report is wrong, or the signal has been enhanced by Tropospheric Propagation.

A forum member questioned my statement, saying that it IS possible to receive signals with a NM less than -15 dB if you use an antenna with more gain. At that time, I had no way to prove it either way, other than to say a signal that weak would be buried below the thermal noise floor at -106 dBm for a 6 MHz bandwidth DTV signal.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...8&d=1510443494

Since that time, I have been able to simulate the problem, and prove to myself that it is NOT possible to receive and decode DTV signals below -15 dB NM.

Weak Signal SNR Measurements, Test 1

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...2&d=1509753126

The purpose of this test is to determine if additional antenna gain can make it possible to receive and decode 8VSB OTA signals with a NM below -15 dB.

Additional antenna gain would be indicated by a signal from the antenna that was more than 15 dB above the noise floor from the antenna. I will call this ratio C/N (carrier to noise) to differentiate it from the SNR for the TV.

Equipment Used:

Sony KDL32BX320
Sadelco DisplayMax 800 Signal Level Meter (SLM), used in Analog and Digital modes
CM7777HD Preamp #1, High Gain 30 dB setting to increase sensitivity of SLM
RCA TVPRAMP1R for tuner in Part B
CM7777HD #2, Low Gain 17 dB setting for tuner in Part C
20 dB 1% Fixed Attenuator
3 dB 1% Fixed Attenuator
Wavetek 7510A 0-10 dB Variable Attenuator

Setup: for Test 1, Part A:

Antenna > variable attenuator > splitter > tuner and SLM, with preamp #1 before the SLM; no preamp before the tuner

A strong local signal on CH33 was used, because it was fairly stable and had a good SNR before attenuation to make it a weak test signal . CH32 was vacant and was used for the noise floor measurement. The signal level meter (SLM) was set to make a single frequency measurement near center channel in the analog mode. (Digital TV signals, 8VSB-AM, are actually analog signals that carry digital information.) In that mode, it is sensitive down to -35 dBmV (-84 dBm), and the measurement bandwidth is 280 kHz.

I added a 30 dB preamp to increase the meter sensitivity to below -106 dBm. The gain of the preamp was verified with the signal level meter and a stable signal from a Blonder Tongue modulator. The linearity of the SLM was checked with fixed attenuators. The SLM has an internal noise standard, traceable to NIST, which the meter uses to check calibration at fixed intervals.

The noise floor of the measurement system was then -112 dBm.

Code:

Weak Signal SNR Measurements, Test 1, Part A:

Attn    Sony    SLM    Conv#1  Correct  CH 32  Conv#2      C/N
 dB  SS  SNR  CH 33 > to dBm > to DTV  Noise > to dBm      dB
          dB    dBmV              dBm    dBmV

 0    76  28  +14    -65 dBm            -29    -108      43 dB
10    56  25    +4    -75                -33    -112      37 dB
20    32  19    -6    -85
21    32  19    -6    -85                -33    -112      27 dB
22    32  18    -7    -86                -33    -112      26 dB 
23    30  18    -8    -87                -33    -112      25 dB
24    28  17    -9    -88                -33    -112      24 dB
25    28  16  -10    -89        -84    -33    -112      23 dB

26    26  15  -11    -90        -85    -33    -112      22 dB

27    24  15  -12    -91        -86    -33    -112      21 dB
28    22  14E  -13    -92        -87    -33    -112      20 dB
29    20  13P  -14    -93        -88    -33    -112      19 dB
30    18    0F  -15    -94                -33    -112      18 dB

SS is Signal Strength
E is uncorrected errors
P is pixelation
F is picture freeze

Conv#1  conversion to dBm factor is -79 dB
Correct to DTV dBm factor is +5 dB
Conv#2  conversion to dBm factor is also -79 dB

Conv#1 factor is -79 dB; 30 dB to subtract the preamp gain, and 49 dB for dBmV to dBm conversion.

Correct to DTV factor is +5 dB. According to the designer of the meter, Rob Bredin, it adds a nominal 6.8 dB for the digital single channel scan, but not for the single frequency analog measurement used above. The actual value depends upon the shape of the signal. The analog measurement for channel 33 was -11 dBmV and -6 dBmV for digital, a difference of 5 dB.

Conv#2 factor is also -79 dB to convert from dBmV to dBm for the measuring system noise floor.

C/N is the ratio of the signal from the antenna to the measurement system noise floor to differentiate it from the TV SNR.

SLMs are calibrated in dBmV and used by antenna installers and cable techs. It was necessary to convert to dBm to match a TVFool signal report

With the attenuator at 26 dB, the SNR was 15 dB for a -85 dBm signal, just where you would expect it to be with a tuner NF of 6 dB. A signal power of -85 dBm is 6 dB above the minimum required signal strength of -91 dBm, which is 15 dB above the -106 dBm noise floor for a 6 MHz bandwidth DTV signal.

Part B: I added an RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp before the tuner.

Attenuator at 0 dB:

SS MAX
SNR 26 dB, 2 dB lower than without preamp because of added preamp NF. The tuner NF is traded for the lower preamp NF and the tuner NF is buried in the amplified noise floor, making it irrelevant.

Attenuator at 26 dB:

SS 66, to offset distribution losses
SNR 15 dB at -86 dBm, 5 dB above the -91 dBm minimum required signal; a 1 dB increase in weak signal sensitivity over no preamp

Part C: I substituted the CM7777#2 for the RCA preamp

Attenuator at 31 dB:

SNR 15 dB at -87 dBm, 4 dB above the -91 dBm minimum required signal; a 2 dB increase in weak signal sensitivity over no preamp. A preamp with a lower NF would increase the sensitivity even more.

CONCLUSION:

It is not possible to receive and decode 8VSB OTA signals with an accurate listed NM below -15 dB at -91 dBm. Even though a narrowband measurement shows sufficient C/N for a SNR of the signal to noise floor at the antenna output, the noise floor for a signal with a bandwidth of 6 MHZ is -106 dBm. Even without a signal present, the intrinsic noise power in a 6 MHz bandwidth is -106 dBm. Any digital TV signal that is weaker than -91 dBm, will have an SNR less than 15 dB, and can not be decoded.

As you can see, there was additional SNR available at the antenna that could not be utilized by the tuner because of the fixed noise floor of -106 dBm for a 6 MHz bandwidth signal.

Code:



 Bandwidth    Thermal      Notes
            Noise Power

 1 Hz        -174 dBm
 280 kHz      -119.5 dBm    My SLM in analog mode*
 6 MHz        -106 dBm      Analog or digital TV channel

 * Does not include Noise Figure of preamp used
  to increase sensitivity of meter


rabbit73 3-Nov-2017 8:24 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Weak Signal SNR Measurements, Test 2

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1509752317

A second test was made using the digital mode of the Sadelco DisplayMax Signal Level Meter (SLM). In this mode, the meter is sensitive down to -20 dBmV (-69 dBm). I added two preamps in series before the SLM:

Antenna > Variable attenuator > splitter > tuner and SLM with two preamps in series before the meter; no preamp for the tuner

splitter > CM7777HD 30 dB > CM7777HD 17 dB > SLM

The combined preamp gain, as measured, is 47 dB. This puts the measurement system noise floor at -67 dBmV (-116 dBm), but is limited to -106 dBm because the measurement bandwidth is ~ 6 MHz when measuring a signal in the digital single channel scan mode.

I measured the noise floor of the measurement system with the meter set to CH 33, but no signal connected to the input of the first preamp; without and with a 75 ohm terminator on the input:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...7&d=1510435817

Meter set to analog measurement, video carrier frequency of 585.250 MHz, 280 kHz bandwidth:
-18 dBmV - 47 dB preamp gains - 49 dB convert to dBm = -114 dBm
With 75 ohm terminator on input of first preamp:
-14.9 dBmV - 47 dB preamp gains - 49 dB convert to dBm = -110.9 dBm

Meter set to digital measurement, 6 MHz channel scan:
-12.6 dBmV - 47 dB preamp gains - 49 dB convert to dBm = -108.6 dBm
With 75 ohm terminator on input of first preamp:
-10.3 dBmV -47 dB preamp gains -49 dB convert to dBm = -106.3 dBm

Meter set to digital measurement, single frequency center channel 587.000 MHz, 280 kHz bandwidth:
-18 dBmV - 47 dB preamp gains - 49 dB convert to dBm = -114 dBm (114 - 108.6 = 5.4 dB difference, digital to single frequency)
With 75 ohm terminator on input of first preamp:
-14.7 dBmV - 47 dB preamp gains - 49 dB convert to dBm = -110.7 dBm

CH33 was again used for the test signal. Vacant second adjacent CH35 was used for the noise floor measurement; there was too much spill-over from CH33 into CH34 with two preamps in series.

Code:

Weak Signal SNR Measurements, Test 2:

Attn    Sony    SLM    Conv#1  Correct  CH 35    Conv#2      C/N
 dB  SS  SNR  CH 33 > to dBm  to DTV  Noise >  to dBm      dB
          dB    dBmV            dBm    dBmV

 0    72  26  +33.4  -62.6    same    +6.9    -89.1    26.5 dB
10    50  24  +23.5  -72.5      no      -9.4    -105.4    32.9 dB
20    30  18  +13.8  -82.2    change  -10.6    -106.6    24.4 dB
21    30  17  +12.5  -83.5            -10.7    -106.7    23.7 dB
22    28  16/17 +11.7  -84.3            -10.7    -106.7    22.4 dB
 
23    26  15/16 +10.4  -85.6            -10.8    -106.8    21.2 dB

24    24  14/15  +9.2  -86.8            -10.7    -106.7    19.9 dB
25    22E 13/14  +8.8F  -87.2            -10.8    -106.8    19.6 dB
26    MIN  0    NO PIC                  -10.7    -106.7

SS is Signal Strength
E is uncorrected errors
F is picture freeze

Conv#1 conversion to dBm factor is -96 dB
Correct to DTV dBm factor not needed
Conv#2 conversion to dBm factor is also -96 dB

This test confirms the conclusion of Test 1.

OTA 8VSB signals weaker than -91 dBm can not be received and decoded using additional antenna gain. The noise floor for a 6 MHz bandwidth signal is fixed at -106 dBm. This noise power exists in a 6 MHz channel even when there is no signal.

Signals weaker than an accurate NM -15 dB on a TVFool report will have an SNR less than 15 dB, and can not be decoded.

Additional antenna gain can improve the SNR of a weak signal, which is something a preamp can not do. But, if the signal is still weaker than -91 dBm, the additional antenna gain is of no benefit.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...3&d=1509755684

rabbit73 16-Nov-2017 3:11 PM

After reviewing my measurements, I see that they might not provide sufficient proof to support my conclusions.

The main deficiency is the noise floor of the measurement system; it isn't low enough. I need to find a way to reduce it, perhaps with a preamp for the meter that has a lower NF.

The C/N ratio of the signal at the antenna terminals is not enough to be greater than the difference between the input of the tuner of -85 dBm and the thermal noise floor at -106 dBm, when a preamp isn't being used.

106 - 85 = 21

This makes it unclear if it is possible to receive and decode a signal with a NM below -15 dB.

I'm looking for an equipment setup that can prove it either way, but I haven't found it yet. Maybe I need to include a preamp for the tuner also.

bobsgarage 27-Nov-2017 12:08 AM

Interesting
 
Hi Rabbit,

Long time !

Found this thread extremely interesting. Still trying to absorb it all. Damn, you are thorough !

Bob

OTAFAN 27-Nov-2017 10:35 PM

Hey rabbit73, I just want to second bobsgarage comments above!

Since I just graduated from freshman to sophomore here at TVFoolUniv, I'm afraid I'll have to try even harder than Bob at comprehension. But please keep your posting up to your usual standards and don't bring it down to my level (like much of education does today--LOL)! I'll get my working man's understanding of it eventually.

BTW, that isn't a picture of you (Rob Bredin) back in the day--hint, hint???

rabbit73 28-Nov-2017 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage (Post 59251)
Hi Rabbit,

Long time !

Found this thread extremely interesting. Still trying to absorb it all.

Hi, Bob,

I'm glad you found it interesting. I learn a lot when I do signal measurements and I am also trying to absorb the results.
Quote:

Damn, you are thorough !
Not thorough enough, apparently. My tests got shot down by two people on another forum for being misleading, so I had to delete them. I left them here as a testing area for my trial methods, as I work them out.

I will have to devise another approach to the problem.

rabbit73 28-Nov-2017 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OTAFAN (Post 59263)
Hey rabbit73, I just want to second bobsgarage comments above!

Since I just graduated from freshman to sophomore here at TVFoolUniv, I'm afraid I'll have to try even harder than Bob at comprehension. But please keep your posting up to your usual standards and don't bring it down to my level (like much of education does today--LOL)! I'll get my working man's understanding of it eventually.

Thank you for your kind words. I will try to maintain my standards, but I do make mistakes.

“Behold the turtle. He only makes progress when he sticks his neck out.”
James Bryant Conant, former President of Harvard University

Quote:

BTW, that isn't a picture of you (Rob Bredin) back in the day--hint???
Nope, it really is Rob. He is much smarter than I am and taught me how to use my meter.

You can see his picture on his website.
http://www.rcbcal.com/about.html


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