Tv Antennas and Reception
 

I am not offended. This kind of word maneuvering does not work. I know the truth and I know that many people do not like the truth.

John,
You give a considerable amount of your time on this forum. I should also add that I am sure most of the participants on this board appreciate your time and efforts. I know I have in past discussions with you.

However, with all due respect, perhaps you could have been a little softer in your approach here. Svtarheel obviously does not have any personal experience with the Mohu Leaf antenna, no more than I have any 'personal' experience with this antenna. But, he merely stated that he had read positive reviews about this particular antenna. He was not asking for speculation, nor was he asking for endorsements. He simply indicated that he would like to try the antenna out. I had replied that I also had read positive reviews; and that I liked the fact that they were a local company. That's all.

'You' made the decision to respond to his comment regarding this antenna in this thread. But when you responded, you simply stated 'boohoo' to the Mohu Leaf antenna. Since you've made it known that you have lots of real world experience with various types of antennas, perhaps it would have been more helpful if you had given a brief explanation regarding why you do not endorse this particular product. But you chose not to give any specific reason other than to say you deal with facts only and something about you feeling like this company is promising 'magic'. Have you tried the antenna? Again, no one here was endorsing the antenna, John, or suggesting that it is the greatest. But I must say, you responded in a way that took more than one person by surprise.

This is a good site and it is members like yourself that make it work. But I also think it's important that everyone have a positive experience and not leave this forum, feeling like they've got to apologize to someone for something that was unnecessary in the first place. Just something for you to ponder, John ;)

Thank you for your continued participation as well as the help that you have provided forum members.

Tv Antennas and Reception
 

If you are surprised by my response then you have not been reading my posts and information as you say you have and you are not paying attn to the reactions of the question askers when I do give Detailed Easy To Understand Information about antennas and reception situations.

John, based on the comments by Scott that he cannot get the ION station due to the station's low signal and tower height, I just wondered if you had any suggestions on a way to get it? The Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WGPX-TV) says that it only puts out 95kw. It seems to be common in this area where I live to NOT be able to get this station OTA, even with a high end antenna like the Winegard 9095P.

I think it's probably not going to be possible, and I should probably just accept this and be willing to live without this station, but I just wondered if you had any ideas on it. I guess low transmitter power from a station is pretty hard to overcome.

It seems the Antenna Craft U4000 Uhf you recommended should do fine for the stations here locally. If I wanted to try to get some of the farther away stations in Charlotte (about an hour driving distance away from where I live), I guess the Winegard 9095P like Scott has might be ok too.

Thanks to everyone in this thread for all their helpful comments, I'm extremely grateful to all of you.

Given the predicted signal strength and path profile of WGPX, I would be less than 100% certain of a single fixed aim antenna solution. But I would try the 4-bay panel as JC has suggested.

I ran an FM Fool report based on the ZIP code and see that WPTI-94.5 is strong enough to consider as a potential source of harmonic interference. 94.5 MHz * 5 = 472.5 MHz (UHF CH-14 is 470 - 476 MHz).

Worst case you may need a rotator or a dedicated fixed aim antenna like the XG-43 or 91 or 9095 with an FM trap... If I proved that a fixed aim antenna was needed and I needed to split the signal to several sets, I would opt for a high gain antenna rather than use an amp (which would be the likely point for FM IMD to be produced). But again, try the suggested 4-bay panel antenna, there is good reason to expect success. The 4-bay aimed directly at WGPX should be able to drive a couple of sets or more. If you can't find an aim point that works for all the stations of interest, the 4-bay will provide enough information to guide your selection of the solution (rotator or second antenna).

By the one JC recommended, you mean the ClearsStream4 (http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direc...1104088&sr=8-1), right?

The reason I didn't think it would pick up WGPX was because Scott already said he couldn't pick WGPX up with his Winegard 9095P. So are you saying that you think the ClearStream4 has better potential of picking up this station than the Wineguard does?

I would probably just live without WGPX if I had to go with a rotator or multi-antenna solution, as I really want to keep things simple if I can.

Tv Antennas and Reception
 

I did NOT recommend the clearstream four. I said the Antennacraft U4000. I recommend the Antennacraft U4000 because it will receive WXII-DT 31 and WUNL-TV 32 through the back side of the antenna.

@dcp12345678
My observations and suggestions are based on your TVFR, not someone else's. The conditions you face may be similar or dramatically different than your neighbor's. ***UPDATE*** The TV Fool database was using information based on a pending construction permit which will allow WGPX to increase power and antenna height. The earlier signal prediction was stronger than what is actually available.

TV Fool's service is unique, a quantum leap over ZIP code level estimates available elsewhere. Anecdotal reports and reviews are not worthless, however, the precision of your specific TVFR is far more relevant to your situation.

I'm suggesting that you try roof mounting a 4-bay panel antenna. (Antennas Direct or Winegard... your choice). See what you get. If everything goes well you're done. If you don't see WGPX reliably, with the panel facing WGPX, try adding an FM trap, they aren't too expensive. If at this point, WGPX is not rock solid, you'll have enough information to determine if the expense of a few more dB of antenna gain can be justified. Deciding on a two antenna solution vs a rotator solution could then be done with specific local knowledge.

***UPDATE*** TVF staff confirmed and corrected the database error.

Right, but in your follow up post (see first page of this thread) you mentioned this:

"If you will like to try and receive them any way then a separate antenna can be installed , I suggest a Clear Stream 4 antenna pointed at about 215 degree magnetic compass."

So that's what I was referring to. Of course, I think with the Clearstream4 you only intended for that to be used in a multi-antenna solution.

Sorry, I'm not sure what that is, can you let me know what you recommend as far as a trap, and also, what models of Wineguard/Antenna Direct 4 bay do you recommend?

First, please run a new TV Fool report, the the database was using information that will become accurate if and when WGPX completes the upgrade authorized in their construction permit. The TVF staff have edited the database to reflect the current power and antenna height of WGPX. Thanks @scott784 for picking up on the problem in the first place.

The Winegard U4000 and Antennas Direct CS-4 are similar in electrical design. Both are examples of 4-bay panel antennas.

Here is an example of an FM trap.

If WGPX-ION is a 'must have', let's look at your updated TVFR before any money is spent.

Updated report is here:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...03f38c6e81fdd6

WGPX-ION is really a station we'd like to get, but I'm not ruling out going OTA if we can't get it.

@dcp12345678, Thanks for the update.

I agree with JC, that a Winegard U4000 facing the group of stations SE of you should also provide reception of the two strong signals from WXII and WUNL to the north of you... all but one of your original 'must have' list.

If you are willing to wait for the folks at WGPX to act on their construction permit you may be able to save the expense of a second antenna. You may want to contact the station to get an idea of the ETA on that upgrade.

If you have the desire to receive the relatively weak signal from WGPX right away, there are at least a couple of approaches to consider.

The first approach would involve a rotator and a high gain antenna such as the Antennas Direct XG-91 (instead of the lower gain 4-bay panel antenna).

The second option would be a two antenna system. The 4-bay design previously described plus the AD XG-91 aimed at WGPX. Combining the signal from both antennas may be possible with a custom built product from TinLee.com but I think an A/B switch would be more practical if you are on a limited budget.

In either case, the antennas need to be outside. You will also need an FM trap inline between the XG-91 and a high input preamp such as the Antennas Direct CPA-19 or Winegard HDP269. Finally, successful reception of WGPX at it's current power and antenna height may require a high mast or tower, due to the low signal strength and 2 edge path profile.

I actually found the local station number this time and believer it or not I actually talked to a human! She said she is going to have her engineer call me back and let me know the status, but she didn't know of any plans to update their tower. So I would assume it's probably not something that's going to happen soon, if at all. But I guess the more people that whine about it, the better.

Can you tell me a little about these signal combiners? Are there any you recommend? I really want to keep things simple with the TV, without having to deal with rotators, A/B switches, etc. In other words, I would probably just live without WGPX if it meant having to use an A/B switch or rotator.

I live in a 2 story house. What kind of height are you thinking here? I think the FCC law only allows me to go 12 feet above the roofline (http://transition.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html). Is that your understanding?

If I decide to just give up on WGPX but do want to go with a higher powered antenna to get some of the farther away stations, like in Charlotte for example, would going with the XG-91 as a single antenna solution be the way to go, or would it be better to go with a 4 bay solution like the Wineguard or Clearstream4?

Also, on a slightly unrelated topic, do these antenna(e) need to be grounded? What's the best way to do that? Could I ground it somewhere in the attic (e.g it would be mounted on the the roof, and the cable would come into the attic where from there I would drop it down to my living room.

Tv Antennas and Reception
 

It is interesting how easy people are distracted. Go ahead and get the other antennas that the others are suggesting. This is what I recommend and the reasons why. I said the Antennacraft U4000. I recommend the Antennacraft U4000 because it will receive WXII-DT 31 and WUNL-TV 32 through the back side of the antenna. I will not provide any more information because you are so easy distracted , no crying if the the wrong choice of antenna is made.

John,

I really hope you will reconsider and continue to provide information, I value everyone's input here and am just trying to make the right decision. I mean, it turns out that the TV Fool database was wrong on the ION station in our area, and it was able to be corrected as a result of this thread, which in my opinion, seems like a good thing.

Anyway, I'm sorry if you're offended, but at any rate, I really appreciate the info you've provided so far, it has been really helpful. And the U4000 is definitely at the top of my list for antenna choices, I'm just trying to determine if there are some other options to get ION given that the TV Fool DB was incorrect for my location, and that is what your original recommendations were based on.

Tinlee.com is a source of CATV and MATV grade filters. The AC7-Series Antenna Signal Combiner (spec'd for real channel 14) is the item I had in mind earlier. It is a three port filter. One port for a single channel input another port for a broadband antenna source and the third port for the combined output. You would need to contact them for pricing and availability. It offers to combine signals from two sources so that rotating or switching is not required by the viewer.

I don't read that as a limit... It simply means that the FCC will allow a local jurisdiction to require a permit for structures higher than 12'. A tripod and 10' mast on top of a 2nd storry roof would be the envy of many OTA enthusiasts... I suggest you look at the estimated signal of WGPX using the roof peak plus 10' AGL value. If you could afford a tower, plug in the height of that. If you see an increase in NM of a few dB or more, the cost to go higher would likely pay off in reception reliability.

The U4000 and other 4-bay panels will have moderate gain with moderate to wide forward beam width. That's good for seeing widely dispersed strong signals.

The XG-91 is very directional which is how it offers gain in the forward direction... This means it would need to be on a rotator so you could aim it with some precision (presuming it was to receive widely scattered stations). Going after weak signals calls for large high gain antennas like the XG-91 and HD9095P. As I look at the stations to the SW of your location, I see many are affected by co-channel or adjacent-channel interference. That does not automatically make them impossible to receive but would be more reason to look the situation carefully, expecting to need an antenna with high gain and narrow forward beam width.

I don't see a 4-bay antenna as a good choice to go after weak signals affected by interference. As I have already said re. JC's original suggestion, "...try the suggested 4-bay panel antenna, there is good reason to expect success" (with the locals). Now that the TVF database has been edited, "success" will not likely include the weak signal from WGPX using a lone 4-bay... but we can still hope.

Take a look at this thread. The embedded link to ecmweb.com includes quality illustrations. I recommend that you ground the mast(s) and coax shield(s). I also recommend that you keep ground leads outside the building, even if it's going to require some additional cost in material and labor. Purposely inviting fault current into the building through a ground lead makes no sense to me.

Thanks for the detailed reply. Just for fun I plugged in 500 for the AGL value and WGPX comes in great with it that high. I wonder what the neighbors would think if I mounted a 500 foot tower in the yard :). In all seriousness, couldn't get much over 10dB even with a 12 foot above rooftop tower according to the report.

Anyway, thanks again for all the helpful advice, especially John Candle, Scott, and GroundUrMast. I really appreciate it.

A NM of 10 dB is encouraging, the gain of the antenna adds to that figure, so I say "go for it".

My previous post, quoted above, is at the top of page 2. With dcp12345678 narrowing his ION solution, I was wondering if there were any more thoughts (in addition to Scott784's helpful antenna ideas) for what I am trying to do. I'm specifically wondering if an amplifier is needed or recommended or what else I might be able to do/try to feed both tuners.

Here's my 2 cents:

>> Indoor antennas are victim to a lot of multipath (signals bouncing around the room), interference, and random events (e.g., people walking around). Your signal breakup is most likely due to the sub-ideal environment that the antenna is in. Adding an amp will not help in this situation.

>> You have nice strong signals from most of the major networks. Depending on exactly which channels matter to you, I think you can do pretty well with a slightly better antenna mounted in the attic or on the roof. Any of the 2-bay bowtie antennas like the Channel Master 4220HD or similar antennas ought to do well.

>> If you're really into getting something for (almost) nothing and don't mind spending some time building something yourself, there are some DIY antenna designs out there that would probably also fit the bill. This might be best suited to an attic installation since DIY antennas tend to be less weather-resistant than commercial antennas.

mtownsend, thanks so much for that. I guess I'm down to a decision between something in the crawlspace above the TV or on the mast that's lashed to the chimney. Then, I need to decide which direction to point it. I hope that'll be the easy part since the main broadcast stations I'm after are pretty much 180 degrees off from each other at my location.

Thanks again for all the feedback.

@SVTarHeel
Agreeing with mtownsend, I would like to suggest that an amplifier wouldn't be my choice. You have plenty of signal available... IF you place an antenna where it can intercept it. The attic is worth trying, but the roof should be a winning location for sure. An amplifier would be a source of trouble, as it adds noise and distorts strong signals, mixing them together.

The suggested CM4220 or similar Antennas Direct DB-2 are excellent options. Either antenna should have no trouble delivering plenty of signal power with no need of any sort of amplifier. Start by facing 138° per your compass, fine tune the aim, then lock it down. I would expect 31 & 32, WXII & WUNL to make it in through the back of the antenna.

Thanks for the input. Last year, when we were first considering the DirecTV switchover, I did a chat with someone at Solid Signal. His suggestion was the DB4 but that seemed like it might be a bit of overkill.

We had some very strong storms move through today and lost the sat signal for awhile. WFMY-CBS is plenty strong with the rabbit ears, so we watched the golf playoff before we ate, but the storms (and any potential snow interruptions this winter) have me very interested in moving forward with a quality OTA backup plan.

Another NC neighbor here. I live just south of Winston-Salem in Midway.
It's been interesting to read about what channels others are getting on their antennas & the antenna choices being discussed. Thanks.
Here is a thread I started... http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.p...4430#post14430

Hi,

It's been awhile, and we are still limping along on our 1992 model analog TV and haven't done anything on the antenna/new TV purchase yet due to some other financial priorities. So we're still using the $10 per month broadcast cable service with our ancient TV. It's funny, now when you press the power buttons on the TV, it stops working, but I can get it working again by fiddling with the buttons using some needle nose pliers. The remote works ok, and we have to use it exclusively now. So I put a piece of duct tape across the buttons on the TV to keep people from pressing them. So far, it seems to work until somebody rips off the duct tape :).

The original recommendations in this thread were to go with Antenna Craft U4000 or Clearstream 4 to get longer range stations. I do want to try to get longer range stations to get as many possible stations as I can, like from the Charlotte area, for example.

But I noticed a new antenna from Antenna's Direct, called the DB4E. When I talked to antenna's direct on the phone, they said it was better than the clearstream 4. I just wondered, would this be a good option in my situation?

As you can see by my report, we have transmitters all over the place, not in one general direction, which is why I think the U4000 was recommended initially. But the DB4E seems to have an even wider beam width (it's 60 degrees) than the U4000 (something like 54 degrees I think).

Since this is a long, long, thread, here's the tvfool analysis link again.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7fcf0f739c334c

The DB4E is a lot more expensive, but if it means getting a lot of extra stations from the Charlotte area it's definitely worth it in my opinion.

Thanks for any advice.

The DB4e is an excellent idea.