Help with reception improvements
 

I'm looking for some help with improving my reception. First off, here is my signal report.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e2cb943bbbeca1

The station I'm having trouble with is WTVW. Best I'm getting is a 65% signal and fluctuates lower causing pixels and audio loss.

I had the channel master stealth antenna about 30 feet high aimed at about 93%. Worked great until spring when the tree tops grew leaves. So I recently swapped out the antenna for the channel master extreme 80. I also kept it aimed at 93%.

The new antenna improved the 3 channels I did not have a problem with but actually slightly degraded WTVW. I choose this antenna mainly for the high gain to hopefully help with the leaves on the tree tops.

I have RG6 cable run from the antenna and connected to a grounded terminal outside. It then enters the house and goes to channel master 8-port signal distribution amplifier so I can send it to my multiple HDhomeruns and TV's. The total cable run is less than 50'.

I do not notice any drop outs on TV but I do on the HDhomeruns which makes me think the tuners in the HDHR's are of lesser quality. These are the original HDHR Duals that use 2 cable connections.

I thought about moving the antenna on top of the house strapped to the chimney. That would actually get me maybe an additional 5 to 10' but probably won't totally clear the tree tops which would probably grow higher next year anyway. Currently the antenna is mounted to a 2 section tower and a 10' mast. So about 30' high.

I do also have a scanner antenna, the Antennacraft ST2 scanner antenna. It is mounted just below, within a foot of the Extreme 80. Is it possible the scanner antenna is causing some interference?

My other thought for improvement was to try a pre-amp but with the other channels so strong, I thought the pre-amp would actually hurt those signals.

My last thought was to get newer HDHR's but don't know if the tuners in the newer models would be better than the older model I have.

Thanks for your time everyone.

Try aiming your CM4228HD directly at the problem channel instead of trying to split some difference. Fix the evident problem first, then adjust for best overall results. Repeat as needed, adapting each time. Repeat next year when the trees leaf out again.

I forgot to say that I did actually try aiming the antenna at WTVW (80 degrees) but then the 3 other stations almost completely drop out. So since I record more off of the other stations, I kept it aimed in the middle.

It would be real simple if WTVW was VHF, then I could point a VHF at it and UHF at the others. But is it possible to combine 2 UHF antennas?

I think that you stumbled on to your answer inadvertently when you aimed at WTVW and lost the other stations: the bandwidth of the 4228HD is narrow enough to exclude signals that are that far off-axis. Since the signal strength of the stations in your area should be sufficient, my best guess is that you have chosen the wrong antenna. It looks as if you are facing a multipath issue that is preventing you from getting all your channels with one antenna direction.

I believe that the answer to this issue is to get an antenna like an AntennasDirect DB8e, whose 2 panels can be aimed in different directions to get signals that lie in different axes. The DB8e has 2-four bay arrays than can be split on a built-in hinge to be aimed in different directions. Get one, aim it according to your compass at 100 degrees and 75 degrees, and your problem should be solved. If you then have a problem with VHF channel 7, ABC (WEHT) and Channel , PBS, (WNIN), consider adding a Stellar Labs 8 element VHF yagi (model 30-2475) aimed at 95 degrees to pick up those stations. Good Luck!

Really!?, I assumed that since channel master states the antenna has a 180 degree radius that it would be perfect for my situation. Guess maybe I was wrong to assume. Thanks.

I will look in to this solution. I'm just not sure if the double in price is worth it just for the one station. WTVW is actually now the CW, not Fox as the database says. THere is only one show I record, maybe 2 this coming season, but I can catch them on Hulu 1 week after the season ends. I don't watch a show till the season ends anyway.

You weren't wrong, you are just the victim of "creative marketing." They are wrong with their claim:
The 4228HD, AKA EXTREMEtenna 80, is not multi-directional, it is VERY directional. Your hopes were raised by their inaccurate claims to sell antennas, only to have them crash down on the rocks of reality.

He meant beamwidth, not bandwidth. The proper way to state beamwidth is between the half-power points, which are 3 dB down from max. The original Channel Master company would never make such a wild claim. PCT International bought out Channel Master, fired its best engineers, closed down the NC plant, and had antennas made overseas.

Their 180 degree claim just means it will receive signals from the front and not the back.

Winegard and Antennas Direct have more integrity, they state beamwidth and show antenna patterns of gain vs azimuth.

Here are the patterns of the original 4221 and 4228:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1471887301

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1471887301

You can see that the 4228 beamwidth is much more narrow, AND there is a null each side of center where the other direction (about 22 deg difference) falls to make the other signals much weaker.

You would have been better off getting the 4221HD or the Antennas Direct DB4e, and aiming between.

Rabbit73, thank you very much for your detailed explanation. I guess I will get back on the roof and put my old stealth antenna back up while I return the Extreme 80 and get the DB8E.

Thanks everyone.

Hey Rabbit, where did you get those images? I'd like to find one for channel master's stealth antenna.

Yes, it is possible to combine two UHF antennas aimed in different directions, but I must caution you that it doesn't always work because when the same signals from each antenna reach the combining point, they will interfere with each other if they don't arrive in phase (at the same instant).

This also applies to the two sections of the DB8e. ADTech, who works for Antennas Direct and gives good advice here, says it is most likely to work when the two directions are at right angles (90 deg apart). You must consider it a trial-and-error experiment. If you don't get all the channels after combining that you had when the antennas were separate, it does not work at your location.

The DB8e patterns are here:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Technical%20Data%20PDF's/DB8E-TDS.pdf

I got them from hdtvprimer.com as it says in the credit line on the image.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html

4221
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html

4228
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

temporary page for 4228HD
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html

Rabbit, so would you also recommend the DB8e for my application? The furthest towers are 27 degrees apart.

Edit:

After looking at Antennas Direct, I'm wondering if I wouldn't be better served by the Clearstream 2V. Opinions, thoughts anyone?

I don't know where to find it. That is a VHF/UHF antenna with low gain but wider beamwidth. If you are looking for a combo antenna, I suggest the Winegard HD7694P for the strongest channels on your report.

The two antenna solution that I suggest is the DB4e for UHF and the MCM 30-2475 as suggested by Tigerbangs combined with a UVSJ.

I like the single antenna solution mainly because the more components used equals more points of failure. Besides it's also cheaper.

So I'm trying to learn more to make the right decision. I was researching the Winegard HD7694P rabbit suggested and found this link.

http://www.winegard.com/kbase/uploads/HD7694P.pdf

Am I safe in assuming the chart at the end of the pdf is showing me the beam-width I can expect for the given channels? So considering if the widest width between UHF channels 45,46 and 28 is 21 degrees, I would look at the chart for channels 14 and 50 and see that I would have a beam-width of 61 to as little as 46 degrees?

I'm also assuming the gain is more than sufficient for the distance? Is the gain something I can use to help with distance? Or will that just help with signals being blocked by leaves?

I'm just tired of climbing on the roof and want to make the best choice. I don't mind the two antenna solution if I would get better long term results. Just didn't want to spend that much more if the HD7694P would be more than enough.

That is the correct spec sheet for the 7694.
yes
The gain should be sufficient for the signal strengths listed on your report, BUT the report assumes your antenna is mounted outside and in the clear with no trees or buildings in the signal path.
Yes, signals are weaker as the distance increases, but I pay more attention to the signal strengths listed than mileage claims. What good is a "50-mile" antenna when you are behind a hill or trees that block a signal?
More antenna gain SOMETIMES helps with trees, but there is no magic antenna that can see through trees.

I understand, but there is no way I can offer you a guarantee from Virginia. You haven't even shown us photos of what the trees look like in front of the antenna or what the antenna mounting looks like.

At least we have convinced you that the 4228HD has a beamwidth that is too narrow for the two directions at the same time.

Rabbit,

Thanks. I understand you can't give any guarantees. I put the channel master stealthtenna (cm-3010hd) back up last night. I wanted to get the 4228hd down and back in the box while I wait and hopefully get an rma.

Signal is good with that antenna, just wtvw sometimes drops out. It's aimed at about 93 degrees and approx 30 feet in the air on a tower. There are some trees in the way. I will try and get a pic tonight when I get home. I won't be able to get a pic from the actual antenna view, but the tower is up against a flat roof and I can get a shot from about 20 feet. The top of the tower is chest height, almost 20 feet at that point. From there I have a 20 foot telescope pole extended maybe 15 feet.

Thanks again and I will post a pic tonight.

Attached is a pic showing the direction the antenna is pointing. The antenna is about 30ish feet high. The trees are about 100 feet away.

Thank you for the photo; it helps a lot.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...5&d=1472050455

I was wondering about that wire. Is it a power line wire? If it is close to the antenna and you have a high level of power line noise, it might affect TV reception, but it is more likely to affect VHF (ABC) before it would affect UHF.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...6&d=1472050615

FYI. The small clearing just to the right of the antenna is WFIE, WEHT and WEVV. THe tree tops to the far left is WTVW.

Yes, that would make a difference in reception.

When you put the STEALTHtenna back up it had the beamwidth needed, but not enough gain for a location below the tree tops.

Your thinking is correct. If you used a preamp, and if the antenna was in the clear, you would probably have tuner overload.

Forum member MikeBear had a similar problem with trees. When he raised his antenna above the trees, he lost reception of all channels. He thought his CM7777 preamp had gone bad, but it was just overloaded. He replaced it with a lower gain preamp and he was then OK.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php...6&postcount=45

That is a powerline that went to a house next door. That house is gone and that powerline goes to a pole on the opposite side of my yard but is disconnected. There won't be another house there.

Yes, the stealthtenna picks up WFIE, WEVV and WEHT just fine. Using the HDHR tuners, those stations run at 85% or greater with 95% to 100% signal quality and symbol.

The problem is with WTVW which is to the left. It gets about 65% to 68% strength and drops out often. The antenna is aimed about 90 to 95 degrees, give or take a few degrees.

I thought about going higher, I do have another 10 foot tower section, but I would have to use some guy wire which I'm trying to avoid. No good place for the west guy wire. Plus it's already too close to the old powerlines. Right now if the tower fell in that direction it would barley clear the lines.

The other choice is moving the antenna to a chimney mount on the house. But the house is about 100 years old and has the old style rounded bricks. It's only about 3 feet from the ridge so maybe best I can do is a 10' pole, but probably safer with a 5' pole. That would put me at about 30' high also but maybe 30' further North.

Guess before I spend more good money I will get on the main roof and have a look from the chimney.

Or another thought. What if I aimed the antenna right at WTVW and use a pre-amp? I will have to check the signal strength of all the stations when I do that.

That would be worth a try. First aim it at WTVW without a preamp and see if you still get the other three. Then add a medium gain preamp that is resistant to overload. The 8-port distribution amp doesn't have a lot of gain, so you probably will not need to replace it with ordinary splitters. You could always insert a splitter as an attenuator between the preamp power inserter and the distribution amp if tuner overload became a problem.

The antennas Direct Juice preamp is resistant to overload; it doesn't have an FM filter (which could be added), but it does have a 4G-LTE filter that blocks cell transmitters just above CH51. A CM3410 distribution amp is also resistant to overload, and can be used as a preamp.

You do have some strong local FM signals that might require an FM filter. I did an FM report based on my estimate of your location:
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/7...9/Radar-FM.png

You can do your own report here, but it doesn't link like a tvfool report:
http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29

Out of curiosity, is there a way to calculate the beamwidth of the stealthtenna?

Not easily done. It is usually measured on an antenna range, by noting the two azimuths where the gain is 3 dB down from the max; these two points are also called the half-power points.

Now maybe some more about overload:

WEVV has a Noise Margin of 56.8 dB. If you add the 10.5 dB gain of a Winegard HD7694P, that brings you up to 67.3 dB; that's OK.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...6&d=1471824123

Interpreting Noise Margin in the TV Fool Report
http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Reception/tvfool_nm.html

WEVV has a signal power of -34.0 dBm = 15 dBmV

The CM7778 has a max input of 34 dBmV

WEVV 15 dBmV + 10.5 dB ant gain = 25.5 dBmV; OK

WEVV -34.0 dBm + 10.5 dB ant + preamp gain 16 dB = -7.5 dBm; close to tuner overload

ATSC Recommended Practice:
Receiver Performance Guidelines

Document A/74:2010, 7 April 2010

RECEIVER PERFORMANCE GUIDELINES

5.1 Sensitivity

5.2 Multi-Signal Overload

Great info. I really appreciate it.

From what I have learned here, it appears that using the Winegard HD7694P alone, pointed more towards WTVW may actually be all I need. That of course depends on the trees.

I was messing with the interactive map on here and moving my antenna position at different locations and it's highly possible that mounting to my chimney may give me a better LOS to WTVW. However, it might put the trees in the way for the other 3 stations. But if they are strong enough and the antenna gain is enough, I may be able to overcome it by aiming more towards those stations.

I will try and get up on the roof this weekend so I can get a visual.

To add to my last post. The reason I believe the Winegard HD7694P may be enough is because I currently receive the 3 stations just fine. WTVW drops out a few times maybe every few minutes to once or twice per hour. Usually less drop outs at night. So my thoughts are the Winegard HD7694P may give just enough extra gain and wider beamwidth to overcome the leaves.

Your chances are good.

Don't make any permanent mounting until you try a test for another location. The signal strength of a problem channel can vary according to the location on your property. It's not just because of the trees, but also because the wave front of the incoming signal might be non-uniform. The best location for the signal might not be where you want the antenna, but your plan sounds logical to me.

I was having trouble receiving CH 42 because my antenna was facing the wrong direction. I went across the street and setup a 2-bay UHF antenna, my meter, and a preamp. I was able to get a nice scan and a stronger signal with the antenna aimed at the transmitter for CH42.

Interestingly, when I moved the antenna a few feet left or right, without changing the height or azimuth, there was a big difference in the signal strength and scan quality. This is most likely because of the tree line in front of the antenna about 200 ft away which created the non-uniform field.

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r.../CH42setup.jpg

Did you turn on the green signal lines to show the signal path?

For example, like this

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...2&d=1471913252

Yes, I had the green lines on. That's how I saw the direction for aiming the antenna. I'll do it again and try to capture the image so you can see.

So here are the images from the interactive map showing the current location, possible chimney as well as the front of the house. All 3 show the lines indicating the path to the stations.

I still have to get on the roof to make sure I will clear the neighbors house. I have a story and a half, he has an actual 2 story house.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1472759764
Current location of antenna

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1472759764
If I mounted on the chimney

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1472759764
I don't really want this location. I don't really want to see the antenna from the front like that. Beside, how to get that past the wife with a 1 year old new roof would prove difficult.

Thanks for the interesting photos. Good analysis. You do have a lot of trees in your most needed direction. I don't see an easy solution. The antenna needs to be where the signals are, and the trees will continue to grow.

An Antennas Direct C2V might look a little better from the street. I wonder if it has enough gain if you can get it high enough.

(I try to limit the width of my photos to 800 pixels. Otherwise the post gets too wide and then the type is too small.)

Wish I had a better answer for you.

73,
W4...
ex-W2...
ex-DL4..

Once-upon-a-time, many years ago, there were no trees.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...2&d=1472173643

Ha ha ha. Yeah. Several years ago I used to be able to look out my back windows and see the Ohio river. Now it's all jungle. And I think my neighbor actually thinks he is living off the grid somewhere with all the additional trees he is planting. Just going to get tougher in the next few years. So either I will have to put up a tall pole with guy wires or find another home for the tower. Either way I'll have to sacrifice looks for signal.

On another note. The only way I have to measure my signal is with the old HDhomerun Duals that I have or by watching on my tv. Unfortunately I don't have a signal meter on my tv. But I watch WTVW through the HDHR and like I said, I get about 65% signal and I see slight drop outs every few minutes. However, I do not see them near as often directly on the tv.

Thinking the tuners in the HDHR are old and weak, I contacted Silicondust and asked about the tuner difference in my old model and the newer models. They told me the new models have better tuners and I should see better results.

They backed this claim up by offering me a deep discount for the new model. So I gave it some thought for a few days and decided I would try the new model. When I said I wanted to buy 2 of them, I was told they were low on stock and couldn't get them to me yet. So they actually offered to send me 2 refurb units at no charge. Then said when the new units are back in stock I can buy the new unit or just keep the refurb units.

Now that's customer service.

73's to you too rabbit

I finally got my RMA from channel master to return the CM-4228HD antenna. Return shipping costs are my responsibility and I figured the thing only weighed 10 pounds so how much can it cost? OMG!

I went online to the 2 main shipping providers, USPS, UPS and Fedex. I cannot believe the rates.

Fedex - $41
UPS - $53
USPS - $129

All because of the package size and not the actual weight. I know there is no way channel master paid $53 to ship it free to me, but OMG.

Guess I'll just keep it and wait for a friend to need something like it. Once you consider the chance channel master may add a 25% restocking fee and add in the shipping, that's like buying the antenna in the first place.

Ok, rant over.

Just wanted to share an update. My free refurb HDhomerun Connects arrived today. I will test them out on the current setup this weekend. I wanted to see if there were any improvements in the tuner before I tried moving and/or getting a new antenna.

I have not had a chance to get on the roof to scout out a different location yet. Had some rain last weekend. Supposed to be beautiful out this weekend so hoping to find the time to get up there and have a look.

Oh, and I was able to ship the CM-4228HD back from work. Work gets discounts so it only cost me $20 to ship it. Now lets hope they don't apply the restocking fee.

I fired up one of the HDHR4-2US units I received. The tuner in it is a lot better than the old units I have, but not enough to leave the antenna where it is.

The new unit shows about 3% to 5% better on the signal strength but signal quality and symbol stayed the same. There are less drop outs however, but still drop outs. The new unit also picked up another station from the back of the antenna that the old units do not. WSIL is behind my antenna.

Guess my next step is to scout out a place on my roof. Hopefully this weekend.

View From Roof
 

So I finally got on the roof today. Not one of my favorite things to do anymore. Guess I lost some nerve as I aged. Anyway, here are 3 shots from the chimney. Height is about 30 feet. I took shots in the direction of WTVW, in between where the antenna would point and finally towards WFIE, WEVV and WEHT. So basically starting West then moving right towards the South.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1472935722
Looking towards WTVW

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1472935722
Looking towards where the antenna would point. Midway between the furthest stations.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1472935722
Looking towards WFIE, WEVV and WEHT

The chimney on this old house only extends maybe 2 feet from the ridge. So the most height I could probably get is 5 foot off the ridge. So basically the height I took the pictures from.

Now comes the questions. First off I'm thinking the beamwidth of the stealthtenna I'm currently using isn't all that wide. So probably might do fine with the Winegard HD7694P at the current location. Thoughts?

My other question is about my tower. I have another 10 foot section I can add but I'm worried about needing guy wires. I currently have the tower strapped to the flat roof with 18" metal straps. THe tower is currently 4 feet above the roof. If I add another 10 foot section, would the current straps at about 15' be enough to stabilize the tower? Or should I use some guy wires?

I could easily run 2 guy wires to the east at the North and South ends of the roof. The other guy wire would have to go West and there is a utility pole there in my yard. No services on it any longer so I could anchor it there.

Thanks for the photos.
I feel the same way.
Huh? Starting East and moving South?
I think the beamwidth of the stealthtenna is at least as much as the 7694. There is an inverse relationship between gain and beamwidth. More beamwidth means less gain; more gain means less beamwidth.

Your photos show that you must go higher. You must not extend your mast without guy wires. A good solution, to keep ahead of the tree growth, would be a 5 or 10 ft tripod at the peak installed by a roofer to reduce the chances of leaks from roof penetration by fasteners. An alternative would be a Rohn 25G tower (expensive) somewhere on your property. Another alternative would be a tilt up mast to keep you off the roof or tower.

http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Tilt-Over_Mast

http://www.wv7u.com/mast/mast.html

http://freeantennas.com/tilt-over-tower/index.html

Yeah, got my East and West reversed. Sorry about that.

The current tower I have is a 30' tower but I'm only using 2 of the sections. So only at 20 feet right now. The pole is a 20' telescoping pole. So I should be able to reach 50' as long as I can guy it safely. But I still wonder if I should add guy wire to the tower since 15' of the tower would be above the roof. I would of course add guy wire to the telescoping pole at the half way point. I'm just concerned about the 15' of tower above the roof.

Guess if I'm going to go through the trouble of adding guy wire, why not add more to be safe.

I like the idea of the tilt-over-mast, thanks for sharing that idea. But I don't really have any area in the yard for that. If I didn't have the back extension on the house I would just put the tower at the end of the house and strap it at the eve.