Close channel Reception problem
 

My problem is I cannot reliably receive channel 27 WYJJ which has 7 sub channels I would like to receive. I am currently using the winnegard 8200 and amplified by a LNA-200 amp and 100 feet of coax to power inserter by TV directed toward the memphis market and receives them all reliably including real channel 5 VHF low and real channel 13 Vhf high band. Those 2 channels VHF low and high band is why I originally chose that antenna. Now that NBC and fox are fairly local I could do without the VHF channels since they are duplicated on the local channels. But some of the duplicates like H&I on WMC are on 27 WYJJ-LD which I cannot receive reliably. I realize the 8200 is not directed to WYJJ but it is also not behind the reflectors. Antenna is mounted on tripod on top of roof peak. There are many pine trees evergreen toward the memphis stains but this hasn't been a problem which could be due to most lower branches have fallen off since they are mature trees and reception is essentially the same year round since they are evergreen trees.

Toward WYJJ there are tall oak trees higher than antenna but they have not had leaves up to now. I realized there may be both multipath and oversimplification causing problems. When I do get reception the signal level is about 50 %. I have tried a separate uhf only outdoor antenna unamplified and amplified and directed toward WYJJ as well as other directions again without reliable reception.

I have also tried an indoor one by one unamplified antenna in various positions without reliable reception.

i would like to keep the 8200 as is and just have separate antenna and coax setup for WYJJ if needed but am unsure what antenna to try .

If there is another solution and use just the 8200 such as filter that is fine also.

Here is my TV fool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038b0923a2969

I would think an unamplified outdoor antenna either omnidirectional or low gain beam should suffice if its receivable at all in my location. I would think whatever would avoid multi path the best and avoid overamplication A low mounted antenna like 10 to 15 feet would avoid the oak tree leafs but of course not the trunks. Perhaps there is cellular interference I need to avoid. Even though its a low power station its only 3.7 miles away and I have personally seen it received well at over 30 miles away.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

WYJJ may be "over shooting" you since it's so close within 4 miles according to your TV Fool report. I've read numerous other posts here with a similar issue.

However, you might want to check rabbitears.info to see what it shows about your market area. Longley-Rice maps are quite useful too.

Since your antenna is directional, that might be a reason for your issue. Bigger gain, more narrow in directional pick up, if I remember correctly.

This is where we could use rabbit73! CQ, CQ, CQ rabbit73!

Exactly need Rabbit73 . Have actually three different antennas I had two directional both pointed at WYJJ and one non directional and tried one with and without amplification just for heck of it. I will look at rabbit ears site etc.

Thanks

Keep us posted on your findings, kb4.

I would be interested to see if you can snag WYJJ and how you did it.

Thanks!

Anyone have any more input, if not will try small non amplified antenna outside at about ten feet with no other obstructions in direction of the transmitter
Thanks

I'm not sure I can be much help.

WYJJ was transmitting on real channel 27 with 10 kW ERP and a directional antenna. They were only sending 9 Watts in your direction.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...dALLTV%26n%3d6

According to the FCC files they are now transmitting 15 kW ERP with a non-directional antenna on real channel 34, so the signal should be stronger than before.
https://rabbitears.info//market.php?...&callsign=WYJJ

https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?...s&facid=188036

https://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?facid=188036

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...ion_id=2018779

Click on View LMS Authorization to see license.

If you still have a problem, call the station engineer.

If you send me your address and the coordinates of your antenna in a PM, I can try to make a more accurate analysis.

Thanks for reply Rabbit 73. glad to see u posting. I had no idea the station used to have a directional antenna but does it now ? On one link it seems to say non-directional then it says pattern rotation 170 degrees. Either way I scanned it on real channel 34. I will send PM.

Thanks

Thank you for the PM. I do see the trees in a satellite view. Trees block TV signals:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html
scroll down to Trees and UHF

A report from rabbitears.info now shows WYJJ much stronger, but I don't think the software takes into consideration the main lobe of the signal is well above your location, as OTAFAN previously mentioned, making the actual signal at your antenna much weaker. Also, the new TVStudy software used by rabbitears.info and the FCC is only accurate to the nearest 0.5 km.

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....0&d=1554689491

Besides the trees, you are in the shadow of the hill:

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....2&d=1554775148

The signal would only be LOS if it cleared the hill and the trees on it.

The only thing left to try that I can think of is a very directional UHF antenna, like the 91XG or HDB91X aimed at WYJJ with the hope that you can pick up some signal coming through the trees. It might be necessary to try several locations.

WBBJ, which is almost in the same direction, will be moving to channel 35 during Phase 8:
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackch...=&lss=&status=

Thanks again, So not only the trees but the hill is also blocking the signal. I had pretty much assumed that the transmitting antenna being that high would clear the hill. I can go up another 15 feet or so if I mount antenna to the upper peak of roof . I will try the 91xg on temporary 20 foot pole first on flat portion of roof where I can move it around . Then if received mount it permanently. If received will probably take down the 8200 since I would no longer need vhf from memphis market and use two uhf antennas and 2 coal and a/b switch.

I wish I could find a source for a new remote a/b switch. Only ones I have found are the old radio shack ones and they are generally $50 to $100 .

When I get to it I will report what the results are . It will probably be a couple of weeks.

Thanks again

Glad to see rabbit73 come through, as he always does, with a better understanding of your issue kb4, and possible solutions.

Looking forward to seeing if you can still snag WYJJ.

Stay safe up on your roof! 73's for sure.....

That does happen with high power transmitters on tall towers or a mountaintop. In this case the tower height is about 400’. The antenna is a low gain TUA-04. http://www.dielectric.com/antenna/tu...d-uhf-antenna/.

I would expect that the power toward kb4 would be very close to 15 KW.

Thanks for your clarification, Tower Guy.

Perhaps my words, "over shooting" were a bit generic. I was just giving kb4 my best guess since nobody else had chimed in at the time. But with a more detailed look at his rabbitears.info report for WYJJ as rabbit73 mentioned in his above post, the signal is getting over him due to the hill and trees in front of his location. I think that's why kb4 is now going to try to snag the signal up around 20' on his roof. It seems promising that he'll achieve this, but again that's just my best guess and hope for him at the moment.

I've grown up on OTA TV and watched it all my life. I really enjoy it; think it's quite democratic or free as compared to Pay TV services since all you need is an antenna. And I have learned much on this forum to enhance this hobby of mine. But I'm not a tech like rabbit73, ADTech, or perhaps yourself. I'm more of a cheerleader to this forum. So my posts probably reflect more of a "street language" than exact technical preciseness. But I'm trying to improve as I continue to learn from this forum. I respect your input. Would "blocking" by the hill & trees at his location be more correct?

Thanks again, Tower Guy. :)

ok I got up on roof today and put up a temporary mount stand (no wind at all today) and found a winnegard uhf only antenna I think a 9032 in my storage container that i bought years ago to put up at a hunting trailer and never did.

I installed this at about 30 feet for now and if link successful this is a pic of the view toward WYJJ
/var/folders/rb/t24db8410r39tw7pfgnkbrqh0000gp/T/com.apple.iChat/Messages/Transfers/IMG_5253.jpeg

Yes, there are a lot of trees and beginning to leaf out pretty strong but as you hopefully can see there is also blue sky visible and this is taken for about 25 feet. It seems as though the antenna and certainly another 10 foot higher or so would be able to clear the hill or close but maybe not.

Questions:

1. rabitt73 did the pic indicating the hill blocking my antenna location show my antenna height of 35 feet I indicated. If so I must be looking up at an angle that would end up more than 400 ft high or so 3.7 miles away. More out of curiosity than anything can you tell fairly easily how high the antenna would have to be to get out of the weak zone.

2. I am using a 100 foot RG6 and won't need that much at present height maybe 65 feet. I seem to remember that anything longer than 50 to 100 feet could benefit from mast mounted amp due to the cable run loss that was about 3db. I will try amp anyway but about how much signal loss is there in 100 ft rg6?

3. About how much signal is loss in just a straight through connector such as to join two pieces of cable together?

4. About how much signal loss through a lightning arrestor/ground ?

5 I am sure the other local channels that are in same general direction as WYJJ would be overamplified if amp used, but would that cause any problem if I only tuned to WYJJ with this antenna ?

6. Is the reason a splitter loses about half the power or about 3 db to each tv connected to it with assume same length cable run just because of sending half of signal power to each tv or is it a loss in the mechanism or switch itself ? For example, if you connected only one tv would the signal still be dramatically decreased to the one tv?

Thanks , will let you know how amp does

try link to pic a different way
IMG_5253.jpeg
IMG_5257.jpeg

Try again
https://imgur.com/I0bGPmB
https://imgur.com/kj1QsdA

I know I am kinda talking to myself but I completed adding the LNA 200 amp I already had to the temporary antenna setup. I now get WYJJ but with I still get a lot of fallouts but if you really wanted to watch something you could see more than half of it . Definitely still not acceptable and signal level fluctuates between mostly 37 and 45 on tv display and goes to zero with the fallouts.

Interestingly the other local channels are not overdriven by the amp. I suppose since WBBJ and WJKT are in same general direction the trees are blocking enough of their signal to prevent overload though they do show 93 to 100 signal level and even though WLJT is about 50 degrees off from others it gets 100 signal I would presume because it is not blocked by a hill or as thick of trees.

Now I will leave it where it is and at least see how the signal behaves for at least overnight. Its possible I could raise the height another 20 feet max without dedicated tower but unless clears hill may be thicker tree problems. The other possibility would be using stacked 91 xg s to hopefully get more signal and minimize multipath.

I would still welcome answers to above questions or any other observations.

addendum:

I will also consider moving it around in the limited space i have when I get wife to help with viewing results.

Greetings, I would try having your wife view reception and/or the signal meter
for WYJJ while you point your antenna slightly upwards, towards the top of the
trees or slightly towards the sky. The sometimes can improve signal strength.
Really, no easy solutions.....

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....6&d=1554950966

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....8&d=1554951716

Very brave. Thanks for the photos; they always help to understand the problem.

The trees will always be a problem until you can get above them.
That image in post #8 is from a WYJJ terrain profile done by TVFool. I added the arrow to indicate the approximate height of your antenna:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...dALLTV%26n%3d6
No, not easily because the vertical scale is exaggerated. When I have more time, I will do a profile with other software that might help.
5 or 6 dB.
The loss of an F-81 is less than a dB.
If you mean a grounding block, about the same as an F-81. If you mean something like the TII 212, that has an active device between the coax center conductor and the grounded shield, they have been known to degrade weak signals.

https://www.amazon.com/TII-Broadband...s%2C179&sr=1-6
It might, because while the tuner is able to tune to a specific channel, a preamp doesn't have a tuned circuit, so it is wide open to all signals.
Each output of a 2-way splitter is 3.5 dB weaker than the signal into the splitter; 3 dB for half the initial signal plus 0.5 dB internal splitter loss. This equal division of the initial signal stays the same no matter what is connected to the outputs.

https://imgur.com/BVVyyJn.jpg

thanks for the answers to all the questions. I added some eyelets and temporary rope tie downs as the wind picked up some and is supposed to be about 18 mph by noon tomorrow. Since dark the reception improved some with few dropouts but still quite a few pixelations but the signal strength remains at about 45 max.

Its hard to tell in the picture but the antenna is tilted up toward WYJJ some.
My wife was with her mother today who had elective back procedure but she will be here during daylight hours after tomorrow to help but I will probably have to take her out to eat to get her to help !

Thanks again for all the help , no hurry for antenna height needed to clear hill doubt I will be able to get it high enough anyway.

an un related question. I received the xg91 today that I was going to try this weekend and when assembling it I noticed that one boom joint comes together touching each other the one closest to the reflectors and the other two sections have about a 16 th of an inch gap between the booms and though the braces are same length it looks like space to the hole not the slot is a little less on one of the brackets . I could easily modify the hole or the slot to make the boom sections touch each other like I would think they should. I am unclear as to whether this is intended or not. I can call antennas direct tomorrow and see what they say if no one knows. Also there is an element just in front of the dipole that is permanently mounted to the boom that I have not seen in any pics of the antenna. Just wondering if this is supposed to be there or maybe it was a return and not correct parts. I will try to post pics
https://imgur.com/dSDnzV6
https://imgur.com/eDEBg1N
https://imgur.com/X9n4GxU

Again any help would be appreciated

I don't have a 91XG and have never assembled one. I suggest you wait for ADTech to come by to this forum as he often does. He would be your best source of advice on the Antennas Direct 91XG.

Where did you buy your 91XG?

It is a director that is supposed to be there.

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....1&d=1555021536

There is also a director that is very close to the dipole driven element on the Solid Signal clone of the 91XG, but it is mounted on the front of the balun enclosure:

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....2&d=1555023573

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....3&d=1555024629

Here is the WYJJ terrain profile with your antenna at ground level. The signal doesn't clear the hill.

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....9&d=1555013747

Here is the terrain profile with your antenna at 35 feet above ground level. The signal clears the hill, but it doesn't clear the trees. The software uses the ground elevations but doesn't add the trees.

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....0&d=1555014063

Thank you for that extra work. I finally found a pic today that I could barely make out the one permanently mounted director . Then for the gap I decided to measure the distance between nearby director elements and even though the spacing generally gets closer toward dipole in the area in question there were one or two before and after that gap that were 5 1/2 inches apart as the spacing was with the gap, so I put it up below the 9032 and swapped coax to it and it works better than the 9032 . Of course it could just be the particular spot its in but I believe there is a significant difference. I now get a few dropouts but watchable and after dark essentially no dropouts. Plus right now its only at about 25 feet so I think it will improve some more if I get it up another 10 feet or so with permanent mount since trees will be about the same. It is probably just at line to barely clear crest of the hill if it even does. Then just hope that when leaves finish developing the signal will hold up enough. The leaves have really developed in the last couple of days even since the pic showing them but most of the close trees leaves are higher than the antenna so we shall see.

I did conclude the antenna was put together correctly because there are 22 of the directors with the the kinda v shaped sets on each side an I assume they are counting these as 4 directors for each peace equaling 88 directors then the permanent mounted piece is counted as 2 directors for 90 then 1 for dipole making a total of 91 elements thus the name xg 91 probably standing for Extreme Gain 91.

It was very windy this afternoon about 25 mph so it was good test for multi path etc which I am sure there will be some of but didn't affect reception much.

It may be a while before I get around to the permanent mount but will let you know what the final results are.

Thanks again

Thank you for making the interesting test.
The general rule is the higher, the better, but when the signals are scattered by an obstruction, the wavefront is not uniform and there will be hot spots and cold spots for the signal. As you move the antenna up and down, even as little as 6", you will find layers where the signal is stronger.
88 for the directors + 1 extra mounted director + dipole driven element
+ reflector = 91
Don't confuse the Antennas Direct antenna with the Solid Signal antenna. The Antennas Direct antenna is the 91XG, not the xg91. The Solid Signal antenna is the Xtreme Signal HDB91X.

To clear up I have the antennas direct 91XG.
The reason I used the LNA 200 was I bought two of them about 5 years ago and wasn't using the antennacraft 7-13 VHF antenna I did have it on which actually works well without it. Back when I bought it the low noise figure was all the rage. I have looked at other amps such as the Kitztech and johansson I may be trying to combine the 7-13 antenna with UHF and the TVPRAMP RCA I have no longer works at all so was looking for another choice that might be better or more reliable .

Yes I thought of the DB8E but I plan to use the 91XG for another location anyway so if it didn't work I had nothing to loose since it would be used anyway. I also thought if too much problem with multi path that it would be easier to stack the 91XG s.

Thanks to Rabbitt73 in another thread I found out that for the channels I want to receive highest being real channel 34 the DB8E has more gain.


Today there has been very little wind and the reception has been flawless on WYJJ with signal level around 75 to 80 .

Next I will take the 9032 down and put 91xg where it was just to see if much if any difference soon . Then I will wait on full leaves before changing anything else.

I bought the 91XG from amazon to make sure I got it in two days and free shipping on prime but the seller was antennas direct.

I also may play with tilting it up to varying degrees which I think would be easier with the 91xg than the DB8E but not sure since I haven't seen the DB8E.

I bought two RCA TVPRAMP1R preamps in sealed boxes; both failed. I can't recommend a preamp with such poor quality control. The Antennas Direct Juice is more reliable and you can add a UVSJ if you want separate UHF and VHF antennas.
Excellent! OTA signals will vary in strength even without trees.
The 91XG has a tilt bracket; a tilt bracket for the DB8E would be a custom job.

Here is a pic of the 91XG mounted below the 9032 temporarily . Yes , I know they are not pointed in same direction only using one at a time.
https://imgur.com/0cpGNL6

To me, all antennas are beautiful; they are magic.

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....7&d=1555169979

I know this is more complicated and costly than it needs to be but would a setup something like this have a chance of working ?

https://imgur.com/tpRBcPm

If I did set up a repeater similar to this would both of the antennas have to be identical ?

Is there a certain length of connecting coax to use? and if amp needed would length of coax from receiving repeater need to be same as transmitting repeater?

Would the signal from the other stations closer to that direction cause a ghosting effect and interfere with reception on this channels or just the strongest signal win out so to speak or would I have to filter out those channels?

I saw something similar in another thread where reception was provided to a motel for a signal blocked by ridge I believe.

Mostly theoretical but interesting.

On somewhat unrelated topic for different location at hunting cabin I have a winnegard 8200 for real channel 5 and 13 VHF low and high band and a different antenna for UHF with amp for another market direction that requires an amp utilizing a/b switch. I was considering the channel master CM778HD amplifier to both amplify and combine these two antennas where I now have amp on uhf only and could use some amp on VHF and could use the other coax line and that amp at home. There are no strong signals in the area or either direction to overdrive an amp.
So since I don't trust the RCA TVPRAMP with the uhf and vhf inputs does anyone have experience with the CM778HD ? Good? Bad/ Indifferent?

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....4&d=1555250014

The chance of it working is poor but not impossible. It's just another way of combining two UHF antennas aimed in different directions, which doesn't always work. To satisfy your own curiosity, you should try it; you will not be happy until you do.
No
Coax lengths not critical. If you use an amp for the transmitting antenna, you would have an unlicensed repeater that isn't legal.
It's an interesting idea, but the results of this method of combining are difficult to predict. Custom filters would make it even more complicated.

That might work, but I haven't seen the TVFool signal report.
I don't trust the RCA TVPRAMP1R either. I bought two new ones in sealed boxes and they both failed; poor quality control. I haven't tried the CM7778HD, but the specs look promising. Have you tried a replacing the A/B switch with a UVSJ?

I may try the repeater idea just to see what happens it wouldn't take long but as much time as I have spent on it lately it will have to wait a while but if it worked it would enable all signals to come down one coax to be distributed to all tvs in house and wouldn't need two amps and two coax runs and combiner of one sort or another. At present use an a/b switch at main tv and watch whatever is available on that antenna on all tv s . I may consider trying a homer or similar device that has two tuners etc on network.

I wouldn't be using an amp for the transmitting antenna for sure.


At the hunting cabin VHF already barely watchable so pretty sure any further db loss such as UVSJ would make it unsuitable without a separate amp on it which is why I was considering utilizing the cm778hd and still have RG6 and current amp to use elsewhere offsetting about 70% of the cost of the cm7778hd.

Whatever I do I will Report on results but now that I can definitely receive WYJJ well and leaves are well on their way out and rain last night and 20 mph wind today with rare pixelation I feel its a good chance I will be able to continue watching it.

Thanks again for everyones help !!

Thank you for the encouraging report on WYJJ. Glad we were able to help.

Best regards,
rabbit

Thanks Nascarken. I am looking at the johansson also but I plan to use it only to combine the VHF portion of the 8200 (don't need any UHF that antenna receives} with the UHF output of a different antenna receiving signal from another direction which would be similar to combining a 91xg with a VHF high and low antenna, not pointing in same direction. I haven't found a johansson amp with a separate VHF and UHF input but I haven't looked through all their models yet

I wish kiltztech made one. I did note that the supposed noise figure on the cm7787hd is 1.5 db on UHF . The RCA PREAMP1R and the CM7778HD are the only ones I have found so far that amplify separate VHF and UHF inputs . I am sure there may be others I haven't discovered yet. I did see a reference to and "old" model cm7777 that apparently had both but was discontinued

Johansen preamp
 

Yes, let us know what you find.

There are a lot of different models of the Johansson preamp.
preamplifiers, scroll down:
https://unitrongroup.com/en/products/CAT/AMP/APRE.html

preamplifiers and kits, scroll down:
https://unitrongroup.com/en/products/CAT/AMP/AKIT.html