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RMinNJ 1-Apr-2019 4:48 AM

Any hope for house in woods
 
I'm 34 miles from the NYC transmitters but surrounded by trees.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90383cd810a4bf


Any hope of getting more UHF or vhf hi channels 11 and 7? I had tried a cheap RCA ANT705E antenna inside raised on my cathedral ceiling and cabled to the TV ...got maybe 9 stations.. PBS UHF and I think maybe CBS. Cabled in my attic it did far worst through the longer RG6 cable left from my satellite. I will not be able to get above the trees with a root mount..

I was thinking to wait until the summer when there are leaves on the trees and try again with some sort of roof mount. I will not be able to get above them.

bobsgarage 1-Apr-2019 11:05 AM

I think you may have answered your own question for now. That little 751 it's probably not large enough especially in your environment. And having the antenna inside the attic or inside the house effectively cuts the signal strength in half. Hopefully some of the experts will come here and help you with the right type of antenna. But you will definitely need to go on top of your roof probably as high as possible.

I'm no expert. I come here for help. My gut feeling is an 8Bay type antenna angled slightly upward to catch a signal from above the Treeline.

But you say you cannot go on the roof?

RMinNJ 1-Apr-2019 12:24 PM

house in woods
 
I can go on the roof. I can put a up as high an antenna as I want...no neighbors. But nothing will get above the trees. Thats why I was going to wait for summer.

rickbb 1-Apr-2019 2:45 PM

You can also put one in the top of one of the trees. Provided you can safely get to the top of one.


Look around with a compass, try for a spot that "sees" the towers with the fewest trees in the line of site. Might help.

bobsgarage 1-Apr-2019 7:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickbb (Post 61096)
You can also put one in the top of one of the trees. Provided you can safely get to the top of one.


Look around with a compass, try for a spot that "sees" the towers with the fewest trees in the line of site. Might help.

That's not a bad idea. I think the Antenna Hacks author has done that.. I'm sure others have too. I don't know if he had brackets or what but he put his antenna in a tree. Not a bad when there is no hope otherwise.

kb4 2-Apr-2019 6:35 AM

I would try now while leaves are off if you can't get signal now you certainly won't be able to with leaves. I believe the VHF channels may not be as affected by the trees as the UHF band .

Get the antenna outside even if its not that high it will most likely help.

Since you want the VHF high channels 7 and 11 you will need a VHF high band antenna and since these may be difficult to receive I would try the stellar labs VHF high antenna see link https://www.amazon.com/30-2475-Fring...s%2C209&sr=8-3
A relatively inexpensive way would be to get a 21 foot long 1 5/8 inch i believe ss20 commercial chain link fence rail at a fence supplier. Hopefully you could tie it on vehicle or put on boat trailer etc to haul. These cost about $40 in my area and you can attach temporarily to hose eve 4x4 post deck corner etc or use guy wires. Later if you put antenna on roof you could hacksaw down to 12 or 15 foot for use with tripod mount etc.

Or probably easier get a 10 foot piece of galvanized conduit somewhere like lowes to use as mast pipe.

I believe you will be able to get 7 11 and maybe 8 with this antenna. I would start with antenna pointed at 134 degrees and if you get 7 and 11 but not 8 try further toward 8 at 184 degrees until you either get all three or lose 7 and 11.

If you don't get 7 and 11 there you can try on rooftop. If you get them at 10 or 20 feet above ground and lose them when leaves come out you can try rooftop.

Doubt you would need amp to try with cable less than 50 feet. If you run longer cable to put on rooftop etc and need preamp then you would need to decide if you want to combine a separate UHF with the VHF antenna. If so consider the following preamp with separate VHF and Uhf inputs to act also as a combiner
https://www.amazon.com/RCA-TVPRAMP1Z...0BPGRSKP19EZ0#
or any single antenna amp for vhf such as the LNA 200 etc

I have used climbing deer stand to climb a bigger pine tree removing limbs as i go and near top attach mast and antenna but its dangerous and a real PITA and likely would be very long cable run and possibly need power supply within 150 feet if need preamp.

I didn't mean to ramble . In short try the stellar labs antenna at a convenient height then move higher or amp as needed. If you don't get anything with this now you probably won't get it without extreme measures .

If you get 7 and 11 with stellar lab you could also consider Dennys Stacker antenna for rooftop that gets UHF and to some extent VHF high and low or something like the 7698p winegard for the VHF high and Uhf . Depends on how much experimenting you want to do with feet on ground or on rooftop.

If you have to you can always run two cables to ab switch etc but getting too complicated.

kb4 2-Apr-2019 7:16 AM

A winnegard u8200 would also get low band VHF real channels 2-6 but much larger and more difficult to manage on rooftop. Frankly I have had better reception for the UHF band from separate UHF antennas than the combined one piece UHF VHF antennas.

I would try the stellar labs VHF if it works try a separate uhf to combine with it and choice would depend on which UHF channels and directions you desire. A directional high gain antenna such as the db8 or XG 91 may get more UHF channels but may have to use rotor or multiple antennas in different directions since you have many channels at about 130 and 240 degrees but the 240 degree channels are fairly close and strong and might be able to receive with directional pointed at 134 degrees and may even help by preventing over amplification of the 240 degree channels.

Here is a link to the dennys hd stacker which is relatively compact
http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/...enna-html.html

RMinNJ 2-Apr-2019 3:13 PM

Thanks so much for the replies. That HD stacker antenna sure looks nice except for the price. I would love to have it mounted in the attic like in the pictures .attic would be so convenient and simple...but Im thinking I need something outside...

I tried to explain to friends and family paying for just my basic cable that gets the local channels.. any antenna would pay for itself in 3 to 4 months.

I have some roof issues I need taken care of before I can put anything up there.

I was thinking of calling the DISH TV antenna installation service but when there are leaves on the trees...I was told they do not charge if they cannot get a signal. I was told the use some compact Televes Diginova antenna.

JoeAZ 2-Apr-2019 7:43 PM

Welcome RMinNJ,
You have received some very, very good information. In tough signal situations, I always prefer separate VHF and UHF antennas with a RG6 cable for each. Here is why. Even though transmitters might broadcast from the same point, the path they take to your antennas can be quite different. A few degrees up/down or side to side can make all the difference. Be certain to "walk your roof" before selecting a mounting point for your antenna(s). A few feet in any direction can make a huge difference. I like the Stellar Labs VHF antenna and would also go for an 8 bay UHF antenna. Combining antennas sometimes can reduce the signal. That is why I
recommend separate RG6 cable runs, one for each antenna to your television. An A/B switch can be used to change between the two antennas. Good Luck!

ckwsp101_tv 2-Apr-2019 9:11 PM

RMinNJ


My location also surrounded by trees.
I had fair success with dedicated VHF antennas for RF 7.
Using 2 vertically stacked Antennacraft Y-10-13 to manage multipath issues.

kb4 3-Apr-2019 12:47 AM

yes I actually have the antennacraft Y10 7-13 in use at my house right now but it is no longer available and the stellar lab antenna is about as close as currently available commercially.

The televes diginova states it is UHF and VHF but its very limited for VHF and I would say very unlikely to get 7 and 11 and also not your best choice for the UHF. The televes Mix long range pictured in link would be more likely and might work on UHF channels and though better on VHF than diginova would still likely fall far short of the goal.

https://www.amazon.com/Televes-DATBO...gateway&sr=8-2

This antenna is exactly same as UHF version with extra reflector added to back and has a built in amplifier that can be used with the power inserter or without. I actually like this antenna it is good quality but A real PITA to assemble.

Yes if signal received but multiparth a problem then stacking would be a possible solution.

I still say get the stellar lab put on a piece of conduit etc and if u have to just go outside and hold it pointed @134 degrees and see what happens u may be pleasantly surprised. Then worry about rooftop and UHF etc. we are talking about $50 to get at least an idea for VHF.

kb4 3-Apr-2019 1:02 AM

Also since the dish people would undoubtedly receive some channels would they say that is enough to charge you for service, I think they would. But if you can get them to specify that they must receive 7 and 11 or not be paid no loss I guess. I doubt they will do this.

RMinNJ 22-May-2019 7:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kb4 (Post 61124)
Also since the dish people would undoubtedly receive some channels would they say that is enough to charge you for service, I think they would. But if you can get them to specify that they must receive 7 and 11 or not be paid no loss I guess. I doubt they will do this.

LOL Now that leaves are on the trees I called the DISH people and the guy
simply put my address in antennaweb.org and said I can only get channel 7...only channel they would expect me to get with their antenna.

I think Im going to start with the Stellar Labs and amplifier to see what it pulls in.

kb4 23-May-2019 9:56 AM

good plan RM. Please report results.

rabbit73 24-May-2019 2:10 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Hello, RMinNJ

This is an image of your TVFool report:

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....1&d=1558663771

This report from rabbitears.info probably has a more accurate list of channels:

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....1&d=1558663771

I agree with the previous advice: you will need a separate VHF-High antenna and preamp for 7 and 11.
https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/...vhf/dp/48Y8141
a little more gain:
https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/...nna/dp/71Y5462

kb4 24-May-2019 9:24 AM

Thanks Rabbit . I was unaware of the higher gain stellar lab antenna. It is possible that the more directional higher gain one would improve reception of channels 7 and 11 but be too directional for channel 8. However, I believe the best bet would be to go with the stellar lab 30-2476 then at least you have the best chance of getting 7 and 11 and might still get 8 or could rotate antenna if desired.

jrgagne99 24-May-2019 2:01 PM

I would go with the 30-2476 VHF antenna as well. Not the 2475. I have a 2476 pulling in RF-13, which has a listed NM of +7.5 dB on my TVFool report at my location. Over the winter, the wind blew the aim off by 45 degrees and I still am able to receive the signal with plenty of margin. So i think you have a good shot pulling in all 3 of your VHF signals if you aim it at 145 magnetic (or maybe 160-ish), even though RF-8 is at 195 magnetic.

RMinNJ 24-May-2019 8:50 PM

I ordered the 2475.. We will see. the 2476 was like 20 inches longer for 2db.

kb4 25-May-2019 9:52 PM

Let us know the results when you get the antenna up !

RMinNJ 7-Jun-2019 4:42 PM

Ok guys. I first want to preface this with a big thanks for all the help...you guys know what you are talking about for sure.

I had purchased the Stellar Labs 30-2475 and the RCA TVPRAMP1Z for amazon to try.

First it did not work in my attic at all ...nothing.. Placing it outside in my driveway about a foot from the house and on a box (with a 15ft cable) to my little TV it got 7, 11, 13 VHF. 13 was the weakest and required a little more placement. I also tried it on my deck near the edge furthest from the house and it got those stations. (It pulled in 63 (18) the first one on the list but that is not a major channel).

I tried through the cable runs to TVs in the house by using a coupler.. This reduced the signal and it lost all but 7. ..it was clear it needed to be amplified. The RCA combiner/amp I purchased though did not help/work.. checking the voltage on it it was 9V instead of 12V like many of the amazon reviews said (I got a dud). So i do not know if amplifying it will make up for my cable runs in the house.. Im going to say if I were to mount it... it could be 50ft to the main lower level TV.

//tangent experiment//
I called the DISH people and the guy came out and tried the Televes Diginova MIX (one with the VHF dipoles). It did not do as well as the Stellar Labs..really nothing at all unless I held it up on the far edge of the driveway. Then it got 7,11,13.. but that would never make it through the house cables..it did not meet the techs minimum signal level. so a refund for my trouble. There is something to be said for 12db of pure signal amplification from the Stellar Labs vs 30db of amplification of the tiny Televes (amplifies nothing/noise).
///end tangent experiment//


So I dont know what I should do... try the Juice Amp and see if the signal can make it through the house cabling? if that works think of mounting it on the side of the house by the driveway? No idea on UHF yet (except it will make for a large antenna combo on side of the house..). Ideal antenna ascetically would be the Stellar Labs with UHF combined in it.

Again ...thanks so much for the expert help..you guys really know what you're talking about here.

kb4 8-Jun-2019 1:17 PM

If you have a decent signal thats viewable with the short coax run I am sure you will be able to get an acceptable signal at the TV with an amplifier. Yes the RCA TVPRAMP has poor quality control etc but I believe there is also a switch that must be set correctly to work on the VHF input so make sure you check for that.
You can use most amplifiers such as the juice for VHF and UHF and it should work for the current setup (just make sure the amp states its for both bands of frequencies) . The problems can occur when you add a separate UHF antenna but want to combine the signals to one coax and they both require amplification.
You can combine the VHF and UHF but u can run in to problems with amplifying each that i won't get into now dealing with 2 different amps on antenna side of a combiner and powering them etc.
Another company that I have not personally used apparently makes a good quality one (Johansson). I would actually like to try one but don't have a need for it now. They have many models in their catalogue that can be a little confusing. I would call them and tell them you want an amp with VHF and UHF inputs to combine two antennas and see what they recommend.
I believe channel master used to make an amp with separate inputs and I seem to remember seeing where they may be offering a model now that does this.
Of course if not too inconvenient you can use two separate coax and amps and an A/B switch.

RMinNJ 8-Jun-2019 2:52 PM

kb4, Thanks.

I'm thinking if I'd like to try a combo UHF/VHF antenna.. I just don't think a tall stack
with the Stellar labs and then a flat panel UHF mounted on my eave/gable is going to be very secure. Im thinking of maybe the Wineguard HD7694P...keeeping everything to the 60 inch stellar size that I apparently need? I think its kind of obvious the vhf channels I need at least 10db gain at the antenna though.
Really learning a lot.

kb4 9-Jun-2019 12:44 PM

I think that the HD7694P might not be as good on VHF band as the stellar labs you have which doesn't seem to have much spare signal strength. The HD798P would be more likely to work along the lines of the stellar labs but I realize it is a much larger or at least longer antenna .

Another option would be the larger stellar lab VHF antenna the 30-2476 that might not need amplification and use a UVSJ and a separate UHF antenna, however the db loss of the UVSJ itself would likely put you back at or below the performance of the 30-2475.

kb4 9-Jun-2019 6:03 PM

I also think the flat panel and stellar lab antenna would not be as unstable as you may think. They only need to be about 3 feet apart and they would probably be no more wind load than the HD7698P but I haven't looked at the wind load specs. I just doubt that the HD7694P is going to give reliable vhf band reception for you.

Remember the flat panel would be next to the pole so it may actually cause less movement than the UHF portion of HD794p or certainly the HD798P because there is less rotational torque so to speak and with wind near same plane as "edges" of the antenna it would present very little wind surface area at all.

rickbb 10-Jun-2019 6:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RMinNJ (Post 61718)
kb4, Thanks.

I'm thinking if I'd like to try a combo UHF/VHF antenna.. I just don't think a tall stack
with the Stellar labs and then a flat panel UHF mounted on my eave/gable is going to be very secure. Im thinking of maybe the Wineguard HD7694P...keeeping everything to the 60 inch stellar size that I apparently need? I think its kind of obvious the vhf channels I need at least 10db gain at the antenna though.
Really learning a lot.

When I was a kid, my dad had a gable end mount, but on a long pole that went all the way to, and into the ground. The top of the pole was over the peak of the gable and strapped with lag bolts to the rafter. It was a very secure mount, went through the remnants of several hurricanes. No issues.

and as a side benefit he could send one of us boys out to grab the pole to rotate the direction. No rotor required, lol.

RMinNJ 10-Jun-2019 8:18 PM

Thanks rickbb, my asphalt driveway is below the gable as well as light directly in the middle. That sounds likea cool rotation solution.

kb4 11-Jun-2019 12:16 PM

My family also had a vacation property that had a similar setup but the slightly loose clamp that held pole to the house was only on soffit at about 10 feet high. That pole had a large vhf antennae on it and we did the same thing.

There is no reason the mount on the gable area couldn't be off center to avoid the light . You could use a small tripod mount mounted to the asphalt or one of the non penetrating type roof mounts on the driveway or perhaps a separate brace from house at ground level.

Yes, you too could be the proud human rotor just loosen the top of the tripod mount etc to fine tune the aim. No more climbing on the roof!!

RMinNJ 13-Jun-2019 6:35 PM

atmospheric conditions?
 
Ok... still mucking around .. I picked up an RCA ANT751e and the tiny onn amp just for giggles.

Today it was rainy and cloudy... placed it on a ladder on the driveway. about 5 ft off the ground.

a.) Scanned ...got all my locals i want ; UHFs 33, 28,44 an 7,11, 13 VHF..
and some other non-major ones..

b.) Connected it to my house cable with the ONN amplifier (so farthest TV
about about 100 ft of cable and 3 way splitter. Farthest TV scan; got all the channels I want; UHFs 33, 28,44 an 7,11, 13 VHF... like OMF...exactly what I want.


I will say it was not a perfect conclusion.. as the day cleared up the weakest channel on my report ; UHF 44 (fox channel 5 nyc) was dropping in and out. I would need to try it further up (will need a longer cable) to see if that strengthens 44..

Still for awhile it was like perfect success with a tiny little antenna. Questions
abound;

a.) So if I were to put this little antenna higher on the eave it may be better?
Or would that introduce more noise from other signals .

b.) Weather and atmosphere give the illusion that things are working well?


I did learn that even a small amp helps get the signal through the house cabling which was cool.

Thanks as always for listening.

OTAFAN 13-Jun-2019 10:47 PM

Quote:

Weather and atmosphere give the illusion that things are working well?
Sometimes rain will improve your ground wave and reception will be better. I have seen that happen here at my location in SOCAL LA/OC. Although depending on how heavy weather conditions are, sometimes signals will lower too.

Quote:

So if I were to put this little antenna higher on the eave it may be better?
Or would that introduce more noise from other signals .
I would defer to the other posters above who have given you their recommendations. But as a rule, higher is better depending of course, on your surrounding conditions. However, I've used the RCA 751 and it's a good antenna for moderate to strong signal locations and then some, amplifier improving reception at your location as you said. If it was me, I would continue to pursue your latest findings. I think you might find a more permanent solution, hopefully.

Sorry I could not be more helpful, but perhaps I've nudged you a bit further in the right direction. Looking forward to your next post.....

RMinNJ 14-Jun-2019 12:42 AM

RCA ANT751r vs ANT751e
 
OTAFAN,

I found an older thread of yours talking about the older RCA751r and the newer RCA 7511?

There were 2 on the shelf at walmart...an ANT751r in a long box and the ANT751e in a shorter box.. I got the shorter box 751e.. From your thread on another site I should have gotten the ANT751r in the longer box...it has more gain for ?? channels?

Thanks for taking an interest in my project...

OTAFAN 14-Jun-2019 2:12 AM

Quote:

There were 2 on the shelf at walmart...an ANT751r in a long box and the ANT751e in a shorter box.. I got the shorter box 751e.. From your thread on another site I should have gotten the ANT751r in the longer box...it has more gain for ?? channels?
Yes, that thread was how I got my "feet wet" on this forum. Rabbit73 and others (sorry I didn't name everyone!), were very helpful in explaining its dynamics and why it has been such a good antenna for many folks across the country. And it was rabbit who pointed out that RCA is noted, unfortunately, for "downsizing" their newest version(s) of said antenna. That is, each time they add another suffix to the existing antenna, or latest version, they take something away from previous one due to "economics." In other words, cheaper not better. You can reread that thread and learn a lot.

So, if you can return the shorter box and pick up the larger one at Walmart, I think you might be doing yourself a favor. You seem to be getting close to achieving what you desire in OTA TV viewing, so I would recommend you continue a similar course and try to "nail it down." You still might have a few more "curve balls" thrown at you, but I think you're close to a "home run." Like rabbit73 has said many times, "you need to get up there on the roof and see what works; and your TV will confirm it."

Please keep us updated. Fingers crossed for your success.....

Here's the link to that thread:

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=16264

kb4 14-Jun-2019 12:00 PM

good news, i would also try to exchange the antenna if you can,. Either way, I would try added height as possible and observe results. Live with it a while in the various weather conditions and see how it does. If it doesn't work out at least u will know what might need improvement.

Badfish740 14-Jun-2019 12:44 PM

I'm watching this thread with interest as I am also "in the woods" west of NYC in New Jersey, but I'm 50 miles out in Northwest Hunterdon County. I don't want to hijack this thread so I'll start another in this forum, just thought I'd humbly ask anyone who is helping RMinNJ to take pity on me as well.

jrgagne99 14-Jun-2019 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RMinNJ (Post 61727)
a.) So if I were to put this little antenna higher on the eave it may be better?

Not necessarily. I encountered a similar situation before finding my eventual antenna solution. I had been hunting all over the roof for reception of a particular channel that my report said should be there. I could not find it on the roof. One day by dumb luck, I found a hot spot for it right in front of my garage door at 5 ft AGL. Moving the antenna left/right or up/down by 2 or more feet would totally lose the signal. One of the senior forum members called it a "ground bounce" as I recall. Constructive interference from the signal arriving from two or more different angles at precisely the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RMinNJ (Post 61727)
Or would that introduce more noise from other signals .

More noise from other signals (co-channel or adjacent channel) is possible, but I think it is more likely that you will no longer be in an area of constructive interference due to the signal refracting around obstacles in the signal path.


Quote:

Originally Posted by RMinNJ (Post 61727)
b.) Weather and atmosphere give the illusion that things are working well?

Yes, that's a tricky one too. For marginal signals, I think it takes 1-2 weeks of regular observations over varied weather conditions before you can be confident in the validity of your antenna location.

RMinNJ 14-Jun-2019 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Badfish740 (Post 61735)
I'm watching this thread with interest as I am also "in the woods" west of NYC in New Jersey, but I'm 50 miles out in Northwest Hunterdon County. I don't want to hijack this thread so I'll start another in this forum, just thought I'd humbly ask anyone who is helping RMinNJ to take pity on me as well.

I hear you... I will say I was just surprised that I can get signal.. Im basically trying different antennas. I think at 50 miles a larger
antenna should a starting place. Or you can just pick up a smaller one and see what it brings in. The Stellar Labs I tried worked well for VHF...guys here are knowledgable.
Just getting a signal and then seeing where and how it comes in interesting...
I've been using a small TV that I can carry and plug in the different places I try.

RMinNJ 20-Jun-2019 9:34 PM

Ok I again want to thank everyone here for helping and following the thread.

The conclusion will be a let down to some ... I learned so much and have knowledge I need for the future.

Basically I was looking for local OTA TV as my cable ISP will be bringing fiber internet to the area with no TV at first.. I would never pay for a cable boxes for cable TV...I presently have a basic cable TV plan with no cable boxes and stream all other TV. Present solution; I called up my cable co and was able to bump up my internet speed and cancel the basic cable plan I was paying for.. I still get the channels.

Should the channels get blocked or I switch to their fiber offering when it comes or switch ISPs I will need/want an antenna for my locals. That is where this has not been a fruitless endeavor. I know I can get a TV signal
now..and I have a better idea of the antennas needed.

For my location it seems I could pull the stations in with a RCA 7511 antenna but most probably need a larger one for a more reliable signal. The signal for the highest VHF (13) and the highest UHF (40) were weakest and difficult. The best location was probably on the top eave/gable of the house. I was able to see with amplification the signal could make it through my inside cables to my TVs.

Another important thing I learned is costs. Very few local installers, each wanting several hundreds in labor before my or their antenna costs ..without promising a signal. I was up on a ladder and the top eave is a scary place...cheapest solution remains mounting my own antenna though. The price to receive local channels if hiring someone seems could get really expensive. Altogether I had about $16 in return fees for the antennas and amplifier I tried... totally worth it. I take great comfort in knowing it is possible to get my locals and I'm not dependent on my ISP.

kb4 21-Jun-2019 8:02 AM

glad you let us know the final outcome. As you said att least now you know you could get OTA tv if needed.

RMinNJ 27-May-2020 5:42 PM

Starting up this project again. Still no idea which antenna to get. A really large one I guess...Id like to stick to a single unit rather than use a combiner.


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