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-   -   Moved about 1 mile south and lost 2 channels (http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=1584)

sdubb 26-Apr-2011 12:19 AM

Moved about 2 miles south and lost 2 channels
 
Well I had my antenna all setup at my old place and never had a problem. I received all my channels on my TV and my HTPC (Dual HDHR Tuner)

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d179f772c313e

Now I have moved about a EDIT 2 miles south and I dont see any major obstacles in the path. The height has not changed (still on the same pole)

I can not get ABC (15.1) or this kids channel (51.2) all the other come in just fine.

3.1 Works
5.1 Works
8.1 Works
10.1 Works
12.1 Works
15.1 Does not work
45.1 Works
51.2 Does not work
61.1 Works

Those are the channels I am after. Here is my NEW setup
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d17890fde99e8

I wish I new what kind of antenna I had. I can post a picture of it when I get home but its HUGE. Its the old style and probably about 8' long.

Any help greatly appreciated.

GroundUrMast 26-Apr-2011 1:40 AM

It looks like the hills adjacent to Casa Grande park are blocking your view toward South Mountain (Salt River Mountains) were the transmission towers are located. The elevation in the Arizona City area is about 1500' MSL. The peaks of the Casa Grande hills are over 2200' MSL. That means that you could build a 500' tower and still be blocked by terrain.

Click on the call sign of a station of interest in your TV Fool report and you will see a cross sectional view of the path profile. KPPX-DT for example.

You are going to need a high gain combination antenna to see KPPX which is the lowest in strength. I would suggest the Antennas Direct XG91 and a Winegard YA-1713 joined with a Antennacraft 10G221 preamplifier. KNXV-DT is likely being effected by lower signal level, compared to your former location and I suspect, multipath. The higher gain and sharper directivity of the XG-91 is the best hope of overcoming both of those problems. Regardless of the obstructing terrain, a reasonable and safe effort to mount high and in the clear will likely offer a bit of signal improvement.

Antennas such as the Winegard HD7698P are a second best option in terms of gain on channel 51. The advantage of the Winegard would be one less antenna. But giving up 2 dB of gain when you are on the edge would risk making reception of KPPX less reliable.

John Candle 26-Apr-2011 1:58 AM

TV Antennas and Reception
 
What is the height of the antenna?? South Mountain is at 320 degree magnetic compass from your location. Point your Tv antenna at South Mountain. Here is how to point Tv antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html . . Read and understand this about , REAL Digital Tv Channels , Virtual Digital Tv Channels , Analog Tv Channels , http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=695

John Candle 26-Apr-2011 1:59 AM

TV Antennas and Reception
 
What is the height of the Tv antenna??

John Candle 26-Apr-2011 2:04 AM

TV Antennas and Reception
 
Of the antennas pictured in pointing the antenna link , what antenna looks the most like the one you have. Before buying new antennas we can work with the one you have.

sdubb 26-Apr-2011 4:33 AM

The one that looks most like what I have is " all band uhf vhf fm" but the sides dont go straight out they angle.
Like I said I didn't have any problems with it at the old place.
The height is about 12 feet.

John Candle 26-Apr-2011 5:28 AM

TV Antennas and Reception
 
If you will send me a private message with your exact address I can be of more help.

sdubb 26-Apr-2011 6:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Candle (Post 7939)
If you will send me a private message with your exact address I can be of more help.

Just did it :D

John Candle 26-Apr-2011 5:32 PM

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 
Ok thanks for the old and new exact address. . The reception at your new location is not as good because of the ways that the Tv transmissions scatter and bend across the Casa Grande regional park mountains to the north. . At the >Start MAPS< part of tvfool you can test different locations on the property. Move the antenna around and up and down. It looks like the strongest signal for KPPX is with the antenna about one foot above the ground. . 0 NM(dB) is the reference signal power number for reliable reception. Negative 10 NM(dB) is about the lowest receivable signal strength and Plus 4 NM(dB) for KPPX is a weak signal. Antenna gain gives more positive numbers to the signal power. . When the NM (dB) numbers get up in to the 20's , 30's , 40's , 50's , 60's thats better. . GM is correct with the 2 antenna , preamp solution. And for the phoenix stations the antenna or antennas will need to be pointed at the tops of the mountains to the north. Also do not block the front of the antenna or antennas with fences or walls or buildings. The antenna/s must be free of obstructions. Probing with a antenna or antennas is the best way to find hot spots on the property.

sdubb 26-Apr-2011 5:56 PM

I had a little time to play with the antenna. Shooting right at South Mountain (how it is installed now) I am able to receive the channels I posted. If I turn the antenna toward the east I am able to pickup channel 15.1 (really want this channel)

The little that I read. Combine to antennas with a reverse splitter. (I think thats what its called) Is that what you guys are talking about?

GroundUrMast 26-Apr-2011 6:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdubb (Post 7951)
I had a little time to play with the antenna. Shooting right at South Mountain (how it is installed now) I am able to receive the channels I posted. If I turn the antenna toward the east I am able to pickup channel 15.1 (really want this channel)

The little that I read. Combine to antennas with a reverse splitter. (I think thats what its called) Is that what you guys are talking about?

The XG-91 is a large high gain UHF only (real channels 14-69) antenna. The YA-1713 is a large high gain H-VHF (real channels 7-13) antenna. These would replace your existing antenna. Combining the output of each is best done with a frequency sensitive devise called a diplexer, specifically a UVSJ. The 10G221 preamplifier has the UVSJ built in. A common splitter can be used to combine multiple signals but will attenuate the signals from both antennas and will permit undesired interaction between the two antennas. The 10G221 preamplifier also has a switchable FM filter which may be needed to reduce interference from some of the stronger FM stations.

Given the narrow profile of the Casa Grande hills, it's not surprising that you would see signal diffracting around them. Fine tuning your aim point is certainly worth the effort.

sdubb 26-Apr-2011 6:25 PM

GM thanks for the information. I am slowly learning, I have always lived in Phoenix so I didnt need anything to crazy to get channels, now that I am 50 or so miles away its a whole new ballgame.

So does that mean even with the 2 antennas you have posted I will still lose channels 3.1 and 5.1?

Man this is so confusing. Is there a thread that has the basics that I missed when I signed up?

Thanks again for all the help guys.

GroundUrMast 26-Apr-2011 6:34 PM

Quote:

So does that mean even with the 2 antennas you have posted I will still lose channels 3.1 and 5.1?
I don't think so. I expect the antennas I'm suggesting will give you a very good chance at restoring the channels you lost when you moved into the shadow of the Casa Grande hills.

Virtual channel 3.1 is KTVK, real channel 24. VC 5.1 is KPHO, real channel 17. I'm reasonably confident that the added gain of the XG-91 will gather enough additional signal for you to get reception of these two stations without losing access to KNXV. I also expect this antenna to give you a good shot at restoring access to KPPX.

The H-VHF antenna will receive real channels 8,10 and 12. Channel 13 is on the back side of the antenna and may or may not be received.

sdubb 26-Apr-2011 6:50 PM

Okay thanks, this is starting to make sense now. I was jumping back and forth looking at real channels and virtual channels.

I totally understand why John makes it a point to post about the whole channel thing. What a mess :confused:

I really like how you have it broken down for me. I guess I was just hoping for a all-in-one antenna that would get both sides. I dont need 13 so I am not worried about that channel.

I still dont understand how the 10G221 works? Does it plug into the wall? I need to read up some more on that little device.

GroundUrMast 26-Apr-2011 6:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdubb (Post 7955)
I still dont understand how the 10G221 works? Does it plug into the wall? I need to read up some more on that little device.

It will need power. It's a two part system. The power supply is designed to be indoors and will 'insert' power into the coax leading up to the antenna. The amplifier unit will be mounted on the mast near the antennas.

http://www.antennacraft.net/Antennas...mplifiers.html

http://www.winegard.com/offair/vhf-antennas.php

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/...V_Antenna.html

In some cases the manufactures' web site is the best place to buy, in other cases you can find retailers with better prices.

Some of the very large all-in-one antennas approach the performance of the antennas I'm recommending but none have quite the UHF gain of the XG-91... which you will need to make reception reliable.

sdubb 26-Apr-2011 7:16 PM

Okay like POE (power over ethernet)?

So I will not have to run power, or another coax out to the 2 antennas?

Everthing can come down that single coax how it is now?

GroundUrMast 26-Apr-2011 7:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdubb (Post 7957)
Okay like POE (power over ethernet)?

So I will not have to run power, or another coax out to the 2 antennas?

Everthing can come down that single coax how it is now?

Yes to all three.

mtownsend 26-Apr-2011 9:11 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by sdubb (Post 7953)
I have always lived in Phoenix so I didnt need anything to crazy to get channels, now that I am 50 or so miles away its a whole new ballgame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast (Post 7931)
It looks like the hills adjacent to Casa Grande park are blocking your view toward the Salt River Mountains were the transmission towers are located. The elevation in the Arizona City area is about 1500' MSL. The peaks of the Casa Grande hills are over 2200' MSL. That means that you could build a 500' tower and still be blocked by terrain.

In open terrain, even 50 miles is usually easy to deal with. In most cases, you can go up to about 60-70 miles before you start running into horizon (curvature of the Earth) problems.

However, as GroundUrMast correctly pointed out, your signal appears to be weaker because you've moved deeper "into the shadows" of the local mountains. Perhaps the following pictures of your zip code (85223) will help you visualize what is happening (blue is weak signal, and violet is very weak signal):


You'll notice that at the edges of the "shadows", even a small change in location can result in a big change in signal strength.

The good news is that with GroundUrMast's suggestions, you should be able to make up the difference with a high gain antenna and pre-amp.

sdubb 26-Apr-2011 11:00 PM

WOW! Thanks mtownsend!

When we first moved down here I thought no way I could get OTA. With the distance and Casa Grande Mountain. I saw everybody else had antenna's and a guy I knew was moving out so he said I could take his. I put it up and happily was watching all my analog TV shows. Flash Forward to digital era we moved 100 yard west, and all my digital stations were working great.

Now flash forward to today. Moved 2 miles south and well... you know where I am at now.

Those images are pretty neat and really does depict the situation.

I might have to live with what I have until I can scrape some cash. I dont really have $200 for OTA right now. We can live without 51.2 but I cant live with out ABC. I think I will just have to go the route of online streaming for my ABC fix.

sdubb 26-Apr-2011 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast (Post 7931)
It looks like the hills adjacent to Casa Grande park are blocking your view toward the Salt River Mountains were the transmission towers are located.

Just incase somebody needs help in the same area. Its actually South Mountain in Phoenix not Salt River Mountains.


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