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rabbit73 7-May-2016 10:55 PM

Request for antenna mounting advice by would-be poster stuck in limbo
 
4 Attachment(s)
bobsgarage has been waiting for over two months to be able to post on this forum. I have been able to answer some reception questions for him by PM, but I don't have the experience to give him good answers about his antenna mounting problem. He asked me to post his question in the open forum to receive advice from members with the proper experience.

Bob lives in Zion, IL midway between Milwaukee and Chicago and wants to receive signals from both cities but doesn't want to use his rotator except for fine adjustments. He realizes that combining the two antennas doesn't always work and for now is considering separate coax lines. He also understands that it is possible to remove the reflector from a UHF bowtie antenna to make it bi-directional for both cities with some limitations.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...51346a60b4196b

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...6&d=1462659360

His main concern now is safe mounting of his antennas in the land of the "Windy City."

He presently has a HDB91X UHF antenna at the top of the mast aimed at Milwaukee, and a Radio Shack VU-210XR VHF/UHF antenna below it aimed at Chicago, depending on rotator aim.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...7&d=1462659983

He is surrounded by tall trees and is trying to raise his antennas high enough to clear them. He made a video with the camera creatively mounted on a 20 ft pole to take photos at antenna height. I made two stills from the video. The first is the UHF antenna aimed at Milwaukee:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...8&d=1462660449

the second is the RS antenna aimed at Chicago, which has the stronger signals:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...9&d=1462660662

Bob's PM:

Be sure to look at video #3; there is a LOT of antenna movement in the wind. The music is wind chimes.
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage
Good Morning,

Funny, Still not approved for posting on TVFool.

I have some concerns.

This morning we are having high winds. The weather says 22 MPH winds, 53 MPH gusts and since I don't anemometer, I have to believe it.

I feel that before I add any more antennas or raise the mast, I will have to go heavier on the antenna mast pipe or sleeve it.

Here's some more award winning Video. The wind noise is a little irritating, especially the ones from standing on my rooftop. At one time, it felt unsafe, even just with a small video camera. "Now, that was a gust":

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fj1n50vsa8...20002.MTS?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/aemgkbyza1...20006.MTS?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8j8ou64hij...20007.MTS?dl=0

Also, I could go closer to the top with my guyed thrust bearing and/or add another guyed bearing under.

Is there any effect on reception with guy wires? Mine are 3/16".

I am going to revamp the whole antenna arrangement and make it more wind worthy.

How wind worthy is the CM-4228HD compared to the longer yagi types like the HD7698P ?

All suggestions treated seriously.

Bob


rabbit73 7-May-2016 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage

If you would post that on the forum for me, great, I'd appreciate it.

The question about the two antennas CM4228HD vs HD7698P was more about wind worthiness. Since the CM4228 can receive VHF Hi (either intentionally or not, some say it does), I thought I could choose between the two.

Also, I will raise the guyed bearing ASAP, but want to have my antenna choices by then. I will order Tuesday. Not procrastinating, just collecting info.

Thanks, Bob
The original CM4228 could pick up some VHF signals because it used a VHF/UHF ferrite core balun, but the new 4228HD doesn't do well with VHF-High channels because it uses a printed circuit board balun.

Stereocraig 11-May-2016 9:43 AM

Hi Bob,
By any chance, do you own that funny car?:)
Your TVF looks to be about 8 miles south of me and w/in 1 or 2 degrees in both directions.


3/16" cable may be a bit overkill, but if you have it readily available, why not?
I always recommend trying to hit a rafter w/ at least one of the tripod feet and drill a pilot because those lag bolts can snap.
Underneath the remaining feet, you could also run lengths of 2X4 to act as load spreaders. Again, use pilot holes.

rabbit73 15-May-2016 2:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage
I have been so busy, here's an update:

I had been looking at the Kitz pre-amps and the KT-200 looks good to me. It seems to be a pain though, at twice the price of a LNA -200 and the need to make a waterproof box. Just one question on amps though.

Budget being what it is, since I already have a Winegard LNA-200 which is fairly low in noise (1dB) would my LNA-200 be OK?

I know the noise not as low as the KT-200's .4 dB, but is it worth the $50 difference in my case?

I received a 91XG and two Stellar Labs 30-2476 VHF antennas. I liked the price on the 30-2476 and since there are no other VHF antennas out there I got 2.

Subnote--I thought one day I may combine the 2 VHF, for fun... What would be involved to make the 3 work (two VHF and one UHF) together? Maybe not worth the trouble?

IN any case, I will most likely stick with my latest plan, keep smaller sized antennas (outlined below) for reduced wind load and rotate them. This is really critical. If I see that the "south" system looks stable up on the mast, I could add to it.

1) I will have another tripod "north array" for Milwaukee and I have the HDB91X that I will join with the 2nd 30-2476 using a UVSJ.

2a) Sleeve my 1 3/8" antenna mast with 1" SCH 40 galvanized water pipe, through bolt it on a few places, raise the guyed thrust bearing to just under the VHF antenna. This should eliminate the twist seen in the videos.

2b) I also have a guy wire collar to support the lower mast if needed.

3) Install the XG91 at the top with the 30-2476 under by just a couple of feet so the unsupported mast is only a few feet over the guyed bearing. ("south array")
BTW, I designed a heavier duty thrust bearing for joining both masts. It is over kill, but I plan to leave it up a long time, I'll send pics later, it is done, just waiting for the cold galvanizing to set up.

For now, I bought a UVSJ and will join the VHF and UHF.

3) I want to join the "north" and "south" antenna at the Winegard CC-7870 combiner. Here's my dilemma. I will have a fairly long run of RG-6 down the "south" "tall mast" probably 40+ feet.

If I join the "north" (probably 20 feet up) array with the "south" will the difference in cable runs mess things up? Will it even work?

My alternative is just to use input 1 & 2 on the TV.

Let me know what you think as time permits. Can't do anything this weekend, high winds and no time.

Thanks, Bob

Hi, Bob:

I thought more people would comment on your problem if I posted it.

Your project is getting so complicated it is making my head spin. I prefer a simple system; more reliable and easier for a non-tech person to use.

I don't think you need a preamp for the stronger signals from the south, but you can try the preamp with the north signals.

Using a combiner doesn't always work; you just have to try it.

rabbit73 15-May-2016 3:19 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage
I agree, simple is better, and complication has set in.

Most it came about due to:

a) Windload. I didn't know what the windload would be on two 165" Winegards, and the profile on the UHF & VHF appears much smaller to me.

b) Not trusting the HDB91x, side by side, the 91 XG is much sturdier. Putting that HDB high on a mast and having the Balun break again or having a bird bend a director would be aggravating to service.

c) Availability of another tripod and mast system in excellent condition.

Short of contacting a wind load engineer I have come up on a dead-end of mast suggestions, so I will wing it, conservative to a point. I feel the two smaller antennas can be observed on a high wind day and make decisions based on that.

One member, "Stereocraig" did respond to your Antenna mounting advice question, I think more so because he has seen my racecar in front of the shop and is familiar with our locality. He thought 3/16 guy wires were overkill but good and had good suggestions on tripod and predrilling.

I did good by him with predrilling and although I could not hit the rafters, I put 2x12" planks between them and through bolted the 1/2" eye bolts, and 4 guy wires instead of the usual 3.

I did send him a private message with some supplemental info a week ago. No reply yet.

At any rate, my project has evolved and some might think unmanageable (sometimes I do).

Experimenting is cool, but making it all work above the trees does make it unmanageable to an extent, which is why I want to take my time, spend money to make it safe first. I haven't achieved even that yet (videos).

Thus all the questions.

Thanks for taking the questioning load on this one, as you know the forum is broken with no one administrating. I have thought about joining the AVS forums, I think I saw you there also, but just didn't join yet.

I could draft up a plan, for others to understand but I'm not efficient with the drawing programs I have.

If you want to submit a post about what I want to do, and add it to what you did already, feel free. That's probably a good idea, because I am looking at it from the inside and overthinking it, one of my quirks.

Thanks, Bob

I will post it on the forum. Maybe you will receive some more helpful advice from other members.

Posting your problem on AVS would be a good idea; they don't have a shortage of moderators.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/

One problem with AVS is that they loaded the site with so many ads, it takes a long time for a post to show because the script for the ads takes priority over the posts. And it doesn't help that they switched to a new forum software that is less user friendly.

The software for this forum is much more user friendly.

Stereocraig 15-May-2016 3:51 PM

I answered Bob and apologized for overlooking his PM.

rabbit73 21-May-2016 12:56 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage

Project one 95% complete...

Well, This one is just about done.

I bought a 91XG and a Stellar Labs 30-2426 and stacked them. I used an RCA PREAMP1 to combine them. Signal strength was over 82% before I raised the mast over the trees.

I am using input one on my Toshiba TV.

I also added my super duty mast thrust bearing as far up as I could get it. My light duty design is there also for test purposes.

I moved the Guyed thrust bearing much higher and sleeved the 1 3/8" Pipe with the 1" SCH40 and thru bolted them to make them work together and cut down on twist. Those modifications should make it much more stout.

Although I went a little higher, I am satisfied with my tree clearance.

Here's the new video, much longer than the other:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0pa3udess4...20002.MP4?dl=0

Project # 2 will involve my HDB91X and another 30-2476. Basically all my leftover stuff. It will not be so ambitious. I will use another RCA PREAMP1R ($20 at Amazon) and combine those 2 on my old tripod.


I'll use the Input 2 on my TV. Later, I may try to combine project 1 & 2 signals (so I don't have to keep rotating). If it doesn't work I will just have to switch inputs.

I bought the 2 UVSJ's but didn't use them when I found about the RCA pre amps. I read some decent stuff on these pre-amps so I bought 2. I know they are not Kitz but probably good enough for my situation.

Thanks, Bob

Hi, Bob:

You are making a lot of progress.
Quote:

I bought a 91XG and a Stellar Labs 30-2426 and stacked them.
30-2426? You must mean 30-2476.

The mast sounds much more safe and secure.

Thanks for the new video. It's just like I'm up there with the antennas; very exciting.

Quote:

I bought the 2 UVSJ's but didn't use them when I found about the RCA pre amps. I read some decent stuff on these pre-amps so I bought 2. I know they are not Kitz but probably good enough for my situation.
The RCA preamps are inexpensive and perform well, but there have been some quality control problems. In particular, there is a problem with the separate/combined switch. When in the separate position, sometimes the switch doesn't make good contact with the VHF antenna. The fix is to switch to the combined position and use the UVSJ.

rabbit73 21-May-2016 8:07 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage
Thanks for posting that for me. It's a shame there is no one managing the forums.

Yes, Stellar Labs 30-2476 Hi VHF. To be honest, I stumbled upon it after searching for a VHF only antenna. Some reviews said it was well made and I have to agree. Just a foot note, I ran across some tech article, some guy was buying them and experimenting with making one antenna out of two.

Just an update, the signal increased to 88% to Chicago and 84% when rotated to Milwaukee after lifting the antenna mast 5 more feet. VHF was good also.

Truthfully though, I thought the signals would be higher, but it seems to be good enough for now.

Also, I see a lot said about signal strength, but others mention signal quality. My TV doesn't have a quality meter, how can I check that?

I wanted to set up the rotator with a compass, which I tried but I don't know how accurate I was. Although it had some sights on it, I couldn't be too sure, but it appears 355 degrees gets me Milwaukee and 166 degrees gets Chicago well. A few degrees either way seems to be just as good. Pretty happy about that.

Thanks, Bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage
Thanks for posting that for me. It's a shame there is no one managing the forums.

Yes, the forum is a valuable resource, and is getting harder to use; new members are not being approved.

I am also worried about the site. We really need tvfool reports to be able to help people with reception problems; there is no good substitute.

I wonder if anyone knows why new members are not being accepted?

What happened to GroundUrMast; is he still alive?

What happened to Andy Lee; is he still alive?


I find it hard to believe that Andy would let his "baby" die a slow death from neglect.

Quote:

Just an update, the signal increased to 88% to Chicago and 84% when rotated to Milwaukee after lifting the antenna mast 5 more feet. VHF was good also.

Truthfully though, I thought the signals would be higher, but it seems to be good enough for now.
As long as the reception doesn't have any problems, don't worry about it. It's pretty much either you get it or you don't because of the "Digital Cliff." OTA signals are constantly changing in strength; you need a Fade Margin of about 10 dB to allow for drops in signal strength. You can test to see how much margin to dropout you have by inserting a variable attenuator in the coax line to the tuner and increasing attenuation. The technique is described in the link in my signature.

If you don't have a variable attenuator, you can use a few splitters as attenuators. A 2-way for 3.5 dB, and a 4-way for 7 dB.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...8&d=1439497644

Quote:

Also, I see a lot said about signal strength, but others mention signal quality. My TV doesn't have a quality meter, how can I check that?
That's a good question.

Signal quality, as defined by SNR and uncorrected errors, is at least as important as signal strength, if not more so. It is possible to have a strong signal that is difficult to receive if it has poor quality. One example is when a strong VHF signal has a high noise level from electrical interference that reduces the SNR to below the 15 dB minimum required. This was so bad in Chicago that WBBM CBS had to move from real channel 2 to channel 12. The noise level on VHF-Low is worse than on VHF-High. If the current auction forces broadcasters to use VHF-Low, it will be necessary for them to increase their power for satisfactory reception.

When aiming an antenna, I first adjust for max signal strength. Then I monitor signal quality for final adjustment. Max signal quality isn't always at the same azimuth as max signal strength, usually because of multipath reflections that create a non-uniform field.

My Sony KDL22L5000 has a Diagnostics Screen that gives signal strength, SNR, and uncorrected errors.

Bad signal with picture freeze, SNR below 15 dB, and errors:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...9&d=1433425884

Good signal:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...7&d=1438807179

It is also possible to check signal quality with converter boxes or external tuners that have two signal bars, one for signal quality (the inverse of uncorrected errors), and one for signal strength, like the Apex DT502 or Centronics ZAT502HD:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...5&d=1438807104

You can also use the Diagnostics Screen of the TiVo Roamio that gives signal strength, SNR, and the inverse of uncorrected errors; see attachment 1.

or the SiliconDust HDHR that shows signal strength, signal quality (SNR), and symbol quality (inverse of uncorrected errors):

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...2&d=1299721670

That image is from a thread by GroundUrMast:

An Alternative to Rotators and Antenna Combiners
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=820

You said you had a Zenith converter box. I connected a Zenith and an Apex to a splitter and used both to aim an antenna. My tests seem to indicate that the Zenith signal bar is a combination of signal strength AND signal quality. The Apex, with a separate signal quality bar gives better resolution of changes in signal quality. See attachment 2.

rabbit73 22-May-2016 6:31 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage

Latitude

As unimportant as this may seem, My neighbor who claims to know much about OTA TV looked at the aiming of my antennas.

He had his own theories about aiming and provided me with the compass. When I synched my CM9521A north and south, he thought it was off by several degrees. I stated it was square with the road, he said that that was a problem because my road Michigan Blvd is not square with longitude and latitude.

Is there a way to use google earth or other mapping program to show lines of latitude or longitude?

At any rate, it appears my best reception for Chicago is really 166 Degrees and Milwaukee 355, just as TV Fool predicts.

One thing I was trying was to focus south on WRME, but even though the WRME coverage map shows me in range, it won't come in at all. I found that interesting..

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...-LP%26type%3dD

My TV Fool Report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...51349748f48220

Thanks, Bob

Hi, Bob:

I think your neighbor might be a little jealous of your efforts. I hope he is taking into consideration the magnetic declination of 4 degrees. The Google map is oriented so that the top is True North. I added a grid to the satellite view and it looks square to me. The final authority would be a USGS topographic map of your area that might be at your local library.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1463941798

I think the argument is unimportant because you are going to aim your antenna for best reception, no matter what azimuth it is. Signals are often skewed and can come in at the "wrong" azimuth.
As long as your rotator can repeat the same direction for you, that's all you need.
Quote:

One thing I was trying was to focus south on WRME, but even though the WRME coverage map shows me in range, it won't come in at all. I found that interesting..
WRME is on real channel 6, which is a VHF-Low channel. What antenna were you using, the MCM 30-2476 or the Radio Shack VU-210XR?

Also, if you are using an FM filter, it might be taking out part of channel 6.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...4&d=1463945009

Stereocraig 22-May-2016 7:32 PM

I can't receive WRME via TV either, but I get 87.7 FM fairly well, w/ a double folded dipole.

rabbit73 22-May-2016 10:06 PM

Quote:

I can't receive WRME via TV either, but I get 87.7 FM fairly well, w/ a double folded dipole.
I think that's all you are going to get because it is an FM station on a channel 6 TV frequency.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WRME-LP

http://metv.fm/

http://www.stationindex.com/tv/callsign/WRME-LP

http://www.robertfeder.com/2016/02/1...-high-ratings/

ADTech 23-May-2016 1:22 PM

Quote:

The final authority would be a USGS topographic map of your area that might be at your local library.
USGS topo maps are available online at http://viewer.nationalmap.gov/viewer/

The site is slooooowwwwww and some of the tools are a bit obtuse, but what to you expect from a government agency.

rabbit73 23-May-2016 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage

Thanks for the research. I feel ignorant, I had forgotten that Ch 6 is VHF low. Until recently, I didn't distinguish between bands, as my RS VU210 XR was for all... Oops!

I was referring to my new set-up the 91XG & 30-2476. No wonder!

Yesterday, I erected array #2. Since I am too meticulous to do anything fast, I didn't finish it. Also, I ran out of guy wire. The new array is 15 feet or so above the roof peak. So, about 32 feet above ground level. My old tripod, masts, RG-6 & HDB91X & 30-2476, joined by an RCA PREAMP1, to be aimed at Milwaukee. Or wherever.. ;)

Lots of pics to come (like a proud papa). I also plan to do a video above the antennas.

I have perfected the thrust bearing systems, I feel. No binding, my engineering seems good.

Just to let you know, I am still unable to see the pics you posted in TV Fool. I forgot to mention that. I get a message:

Quote:

"bobsgarage, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation."
I know it's a pain, but is it possible to e-mail the attachments from most recent posts?? Funny how I could see them in the PM system, but not the forums

I can follow links as long as they are not part of the attachment system in TV Fool.

Thanks, Bob

Sorry you are having trouble with the attachments in your thread.

Post #1 shows 4 images, can you see all 4?
Post #1 has 4 attachments that are duplicates of the 4 images. I assume you can not see the attachments.

Post #2 has no images or attachments
Post #3 has no images or attachments
Post #4 has no images or attachments

Post #5 has no images showing, but it has 3 attachments of your race car for Stereocraig which I assume you can't see.

Post #6 has no images or attachments

Post #7 has no images showing. It has 2 attachments of stills I made from your long project 1 video. I assume you can't see them.

Post #8 has 5 images showing
1. Noise Margin Diagram
2. Bad Sony signal
3. Good Sony signal
4. Dual signal bars
5. SiliconDust signal monitor
Can you see all 5 images in the post?
Post #8 has 2 attachments; I assume you can't see them.
1. TiVo Diagnostics Screen
2. Zenith signal bar

Post #9 had 2 images showing:
1. Aerial view of your street with grid
2. Spectrum Analyzer screen showing CH6 and FM signals
can you see them?
Post #9 has 4 attachments
1. dupe of image 1
2. another street aerial with grid
3. and another street aerial with grid; one was really enough
4. dupe of image 2

What images do you want that you aren't able to see?

Quote:

I know it's a pain, but is it possible to e-mail the attachments from most recent posts?? Funny how I could see them in the PM system, but not the forums
You could see them in the PM because I sent them to you a different way, from my image host.

eggman531916 25-May-2016 3:22 AM

I've read through most of this thread, and I gotta say, nice job bobsgarage. I thought about ordering one of those VHF-Hi antennas also for my mother's house. I'm sorry no one has approved you to post in the forums. I remember it took a long time for me to be able to do so. I hope your set up works well for you.

Tower Guy 25-May-2016 9:16 PM

In order to see latitude and longitude as well as draw directional lines on a google map I use the web site heywhatsthat.com. Click on new panorama and enter your address. The Lat and long will be displayed below the map.

rabbit73 26-May-2016 2:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage
Posts #1,5,7,8,9 I can't see any attachments. So, if you can e-mail or Dropbox a folder with the attachments, that would be great.

BTW, Array #2 is functional, but some technical issues have to be solved. I combined array 1 & 2 and got real CH 8 (10.1) 12.1, 18.1, are clear, anything higher, no lock or UHF was spotty, quite Pixelated.

I split the signals and attached array#2 to RF Input #2. Horrible. Not getting anything from Milwaukee going into Input 2 on my TV.

Plugged array#1 into Input#2, No stations, looks like a problem with Input 2, Hmmm, when I had Cable TV on that input, it was fine. I'll revisit that later. Maybe I'll try my Zenith or Tivax tuners.

Also, I'm using my old Radio Shack rotator on array#2. I don't have the instructions any more, so I set it up how I remembered. Full sweep both ways, then go to 180 degrees South with controller and then aim antennas due south. I hope that makes sense.

However, the rotator is not making a full sweep, it appears to stop at 345 degrees instead of 360 and the other way stops at about 25 degrees instead of 1 degree. I may have to sight in the antenna to Milwaukee and tighten it down and rotate from there.

Tomorrow.

I see we have some other members joining this thread. That's great! This is how I imagined it working.
Thanks, Bob

You didn't answer my question about what images you can see in the posts. Some of the attachments are duplicates of the images in the posts because I upload them as attachments first and then add a BB code to show them in the post.

I will have to show ALL of the attachments. I wanted to avoid doing that if you can ALREADY see the image in the post.

rabbit73 26-May-2016 3:24 PM

Post #1 attachments

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psodakjzqt.jpg

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...ps3qdsnyxm.jpg

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...pscv2o1oin.jpg

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psgmr62rr0.jpg

to be continued as time permits.

Stereocraig 26-May-2016 4:24 PM

Bob,
However you orient it, you may want to set it so you can access that 355 heading from the eastern half, VS going CW all the way around. There are just more signals on the eastern side, than you could expect to receive from the western side.

You should rotate the control full CCW until it stops and then full CW, until it stops.If nothing is broken, it should now be in sync.
Don't expect a full 360 from any rotor, because there is a steel limiting pin on the main shaft.

rabbit73 26-May-2016 5:15 PM

Post #5 attachments

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psxcnzdvws.jpg

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psuxfqafxp.jpg

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psisjyprh4.jpg

to be continued as time permits

rabbit73 26-May-2016 5:32 PM

Post #7 attachments

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psyhkm3prx.jpg

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...ps941fdxnm.jpg

to be continued as time permits

rabbit73 26-May-2016 6:47 PM

Post #8 attachments

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...pswk8paz3s.jpg

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...pshfo2aw9a.jpg

to be continued as time permits

rabbit73 26-May-2016 7:14 PM

Post #9 attachments

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psoidljhtd.jpg

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psbto66jlq.jpg

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psgv5htpcl.jpg

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...ps6et6ds90.jpg

Is that it?

rabbit73 26-May-2016 7:31 PM

Quote:

BTW, Array #2 is functional, but some technical issues have to be solved. I combined array 1 & 2 and got real CH 8 (10.1) 12.1, 18.1, are clear, anything higher, no lock or UHF was spotty, quite Pixelated.

I split the signals and attached array#2 to RF Input #2. Horrible. Not getting anything from Milwaukee going into Input 2 on my TV.

Plugged array#1 into Input#2, No stations, looks like a problem with Input 2, Hmmm, when I had Cable TV on that input, it was fine. I'll revisit that later. Maybe I'll try my Zenith or Tivax tuners.
Something is not right. What model is your (Toshiba?) TV?

Is input #2 only for cable and not antenna?

rabbit73 26-May-2016 8:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage
I'm sorry I did not specify but I cannot look at any photos whatsoever.

The pics you put up we're very good thank you.

I appreciate what you've done so far, and to update you from my last private message, I am making a list of what channels I can get and how strong the signal appears. I spent quite a lot of time checking signal station by station as I tweaked the rotator on the signal meter on my Toshiba projection TV.

The Chicago stations were consistently above 88% and some stations are at 90%. Interestingly, the station that were strongest were the Spanish speaking stations like Telemundo and Univision.

Milwaukee stations work mostly there above 75% and as high as 86%. There were some stations of lower power and I couldn't get a lock on them even to find out what they were. My TV doesn't give you an actual Channel count when it's done scanning. It's simply just goes back to the previous menu item. I didn't bother counting them.


Also, I was able to hook up my Zenith tuner. I first used it last night comma and I scanned with both antennas combined and I believe I got somewhere upwards of 90 channels or sub channels. It was raining at the time. Milwaukee VHF real Channel 8 (10.1 virtual) was coming and going also. In the morning it was probably the strongest channel I had from Milwaukee.

Yesterday morning the skies were clear and it seemed that I had more TV stations at a stronger strength than I did last night as the rain clouds came in. I know atmospheric conditions can cause issues so I don't feel like it was a fair comparison. Tonight I will rescan the TV without the tuner and then I will install the tuner and re-scan like that. I was wondering if I could put a splitter at the antenna signal and have one signal go directly to the TV and one signal go directly to the tuner. I feel like the quality of picture with the Zenith tuner is not as good as when I'm looking at the TV with the antenna plugged in directly. I also have my Tivax tuner I have not used on this TV.

Alternatively, I have a Radio Shack distribution amp with 4 outputs I will probably end up using once I feel everything is working good with one TV. What I was contemplating was running the antenna leads directly into the distribution amp.When everything is working well I will spread the signal around the house and begin the process of "cutting the cable".

Also I want to thank you and the others who have begun to contribute in this thread. It's a good feeling.

Thanks, Bob

Oh, OK. Does that mean you can't see any photos at all in posts 1-9?

Can you see the photos in posts 17-22?

This is turning out to be harder than I thought it would be. It looks like you are not allowed to see any attachments or any images derived from attachments.

rabbit73 27-May-2016 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage
Okay I can see everything I mean all pictures since post number 17, so whatever you have done keep doing it.

I'm only using my image host and not using any images from my list of attachments for this forum.

more post #8 images

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...oiseMargin.jpg

Bad signal:

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...IMG_0226_1.jpg

Good signal:

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...IMG_0222_1.jpg

Dual signal bars:

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psoiijdipf.jpg

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psac8tl29l.png

rabbit73 27-May-2016 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage
I will try to get the Toshiba model number for you when I get home. It is a projection TV bought in around 2001 or two I think.

I can tell you antenna input 1 and input 2 both have an option to go with antenna or cable. Unfortunately the Zenith tuner box that has only RF output and RCA red white and yellow.

Thanks Bob

Quote:

Also, I was able to hook up my Zenith tuner. I first used it last night comma and I scanned with both antennas combined and I believe I got somewhere upwards of 90 channels or sub channels. It was raining at the time. Milwaukee VHF real Channel 8 (10.1 virtual) was coming and going also. In the morning it was probably the strongest channel I had from Milwaukee.
Very good, Bob.

How did you connect the Zenith to the TV?

rabbit73 27-May-2016 8:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage
The Toshiba TV is a Theater Wide HD Model # 57H93 Chassis# TAC0361 manufactured August 2003.

I had thought I bought it earlier.

Oh yeah, Using Coax for all connections, either Zenith of rooftop antennas.

Anyhow, I split the combined North/South signal so I can switch back and forth between both between input 1 & 2 on the TV. One splitter output goes to the Zenith tuner and one goes directly to the TV.

It appears that after rescanning the Zenith and the TV, both inputs are working with the Zenith. I put the Zenith on Input2 and the TV antenna on Input 1.

Here is what I found. The definition is noticeably better with the TV tuner. The Zenith DTT-901 doesn't have the quality picture of the TV. Details appear more fuzzy using the Zenith tuner. I see a difference as I switch between inputs.

I was hoping the Zenith would work better as it is a more recent device, but I guess I don't have to have it. I decided to switch the Zenith over to input 1 on the TV and the picture quality appeared the same as on input 2.

Here's the funny part. Just like I mentioned before, input 2 did not respond to the combined (N-S) antenna signals, just a whitish static on the screen.
Input configuration shows both inputs as "antenna". The other choice is, of course "cable".

So, I have no idea why input 2 works great with the Zenith tuner and doesn't work with the antenna directly.

At any rate, I may be ready to distribute the signal to different rooms in the house.

I have a distribution amp, a Radio Shack "Bi-Directional Cable Amplifier" #15-1197. It has four outputs. Should I just use it now?, or use a one in-four out splitter and risk the higher loss factor?

The longest cable to the master bedroom will be approx. 35 feet. To the kids room about the same. Another to the Toshiba Projection screen maybe ten feet, the same for the kitchen TV. .

G'night, Bob

Thanks for the report.
Quote:

Here is what I found. The definition is noticeably better with the TV tuner. The Zenith DTT-901 doesn't have the quality picture of the TV. Details appear more fuzzy using the Zenith tuner. I see a difference as I switch between inputs.
That is normal. The output of the Zenith is SD not HD. The difference is easy to see with a large screen. The Zenith also has composite output, but it doesn't have component output for better quality. Your TV will accept either. You would need a set top box with HD output via component cables.
Quote:

I have a distribution amp, a Radio Shack "Bi-Directional Cable Amplifier" #15-1197. Should I just use it now?, or use a one in-four out splitter and risk the higher loss factor?
Try it with a passive (non-amplified) splitter first and let your signal strength readings be your guide. With digital, you either get it or you don't. You will soon find out how weak the signal can be and still have satisfactory reception.

If you need a newer distribution amp, try the Channel Master 3414.

Quote:

I was wondering if I could put a splitter at the antenna signal and have one signal go directly to the TV and one signal go directly to the (Zenith) tuner.
You could do that, but why would you want to? The only reason to use a separate tuner is if combining the two antenna systems doesn't work and you lose channels.

rabbit73 27-May-2016 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage

Thanks for the pics Bob.

The TB-105 bearing is no longer available, so Bob has spent a lot of time perfecting his bearings.

His photo #7 of 19 edited to show close up of both antenna systems. Very impressive, Bob:

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psdkgpzqfu.jpg

rabbit73 3-Jun-2016 1:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage
An update for you. Well, I will claim success. Depending on which TV I check, most Full power signals from Milwaukee and Chicago are over 95%. MY Bedroom 36" Toshiba Regza seems to have the best picture and the highest signal %. I have seen many Chicago stations peak at 99% With SNR in the 30's. Milwaukee is close on most channels.

I have Dropbox attachments for you from my Kitchen Toshiba 19" (not a Regza as I previously thought). Later I will take pics from my 36" as it seems to have a more accurate channel ID in the signal meter.

As seen in my pics, the signal meter doesn't always get the virtual channel right.

A good example is real channel 44. After a scan, if the TV tuner is on 7.1 the signal meter correct displays virtual channel 7.1 on real channel 44.

Change the TV tuner to any other channel. For example, using the remote to check real channel 45, it correctly displays virtual channel 44.1. Switching back to real channel 44, the signal meter now displays virtual channel 44.1 also.

I re-checked it this morning, If the TV is already on 7.1 at the time the signal meter is checked, it will show displays virtual channel 7.1 on real channel 44. If TV is not on 7.1 on real channel 44, the signal meter now displays virtual channel 44.1.

I noticed also, that the signal strength changes. I have some pics of that in the Dropbox folders. This is repeatable.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/avqb5kwiz8...Meter.zip?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gjv0tkxyqw...Meter.zip?dl=0

I did do a double re-scan more than once.

For the record my 36" Regza does not do that, at least with real channels 44 & 45. I am still researching the other channels, but it appears to be an issue with the TV.

Also the 36" TV pulls in 93 channels compared with the 19" which pulls in 77-80 channels. I think both TVs get more channels at night.

All in all, whether a TV issue or not, the problem seems to be with the signal meter as the tuner seems to pull the right channels when selected.

My older big projection TV has a primitive signal meter and does not show SNR, only % of strength.

Since the antennas are up, I feel that they are good, including the RCA PREAMP1's in both arrays. I only say that because I get strong VHF and UHF from Chicago and Milwaukee.

I'll keep you updated. So far I still excited about what I have and what it does and owe part of it to you.

Thanks, Bob

Thanks for the update..

It looks like you have reached your goal, Bob; well done!

Glad that we were able to help you.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...51346a60b4196b

Stereocraig 3-Jun-2016 3:35 PM

Good job, Bob.
And you haven't even sniffed for Michigan, or Indiana, yet.:)

rabbit73 6-Jun-2016 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=9234

In the link above I see that somebody is at least correcting some of the database stuff, so that means somebody must still be working there at TV fool. Do you know who to contact there.

I can't believe I went through a whole antenna question and answer session got it installed and working without even being a member. Is it possible to contact somebody through the database update heart to find out why members aren't getting approved?

Thanks, Bob

Quote:

Do you know who to contact there.
No, I'm just another member.
Quote:

I can't believe I went through a whole antenna question and answer session got it installed and working without even being a member.
As far as I'm concerned, you are a member because you have made a useful contribution to the forum.
Quote:

Is it possible to contact somebody through the database update heart to find out why members aren't getting approved?
I wouldn't know how to do that. I already posted a thread asking that question; it didn't work.

What's going on at tvfool?
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=15920

rabbit73 7-Jun-2016 2:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage
Wind affects on antenna array & mast

It was windy yesterday, but hardly as strong as the wind in the videos sent to you a month ago. Still, the amount of movement was negligible:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pphuw3nlya...0gust.MTS?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4jxi2khfyt...ctive.MTS?dl=0

Next time we get heavier winds, I'll get some video again. For now, this was one of the reasons for the thread you made for me.

About the database forum. Could you please post a question there about membership approval? At least someone will read it. Maybe different administrators can contact the ones who are responsible for approval?

Thanks, Bob

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...ps25jpfugr.jpg

Thanks for the report, Bob.

The masts look much more stable now in a strong wind.
Quote:

Could you please post a question there about membership approval?
I'll try, but I doubt that it will do much good.

bobsgarage 13-Oct-2016 5:00 PM

Sniffing across Lake Michigan
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stereocraig (Post 55225)
Good job, Bob.
And you haven't even sniffed for Michigan, or Indiana, yet.:)

Hi Craig, now that I'm a member after a few months of waiting, I wanted to respond to your "sniffing" suggestion.

I have sniffed to across the lake to Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, etc, no good. I rotated the tallest antenna (91XG & 30-2476) East and slowly rotated from SE to NE and had no such luck. I even rotated the the lower mast east (HDB91X & 30-2476) with no luck. Finally I combined both masts, which I didn't expect any results from, but hey, it didn't hurt anything. NO luck.

I have an Oak tree of my own and others in the near proximity exactly in the whole 3 to 160 degree ie. almost due north to due south range, so it will have to wait until after autumn, in the ice cold of winter.

Even then, in winter most Oaks retain some browned off leaf clumps on selected branches through out the winter and finally drop them in spring when the buds break. Still it should be a chance to "Sniff" :)

Of Indiana stations I get WYIN 56.1 76 miles out but it is in that narrow 164 degree direction as my Chicago stations. The antennas are shooting the gap between two trees. I am happy to get WYIN though, I like PBS and programming is a little different than the other PBS stations.

How about you? What luck have you had?

Stereocraig 13-Oct-2016 7:23 PM

Well Bob, not much has changed w/ my antennas.
Spent most of the summer preparing for my daughter's wedding and maintenance on my parent's farm.

I occasionally receive Kalamazoo and Grand Rapids, w/ an an occasional Green Bay. WYIN and WNDU, not so much.
I'll probably give up on Madison and Rockford for the time being.

The 91XG is probably the best I'll be able to DX with, until I can complete my mesh dish project and trim back some Maple branches.
I've made the driven element and shield for it and now need to fab a mounting bracket w/ swivel and maybe tilt.

bobsgarage 25-Feb-2019 3:58 AM

Update 3 years later !!!
 
Well, Lets try this again, took too long and got logged off!

Here's the update since 2016, I have been using both antenna arrays.

Reception has been good. Rotators are seized, with little hope of any help from Channel Master.


The "Milwaukee array" is not so tall about 15 feet from the roof peak.

The Chicago array is 35 Feet above the roof peak with a 10' tripod for stability at the base and guy wires with eyelet hooks into roof rafters reinforcements. Very sturdy.

The Chicago array is heavy. The mast is 1 3/8" SS 20 with waterpipe slid inside. Double wall if you will. On top are a Antenna Direct XG 91 and a Stellar Labs 30-2476.

Because of the height, I used 3/16 guy wires and a special custom bearing I designed. Today the wind was brutal. The leeward side 1/4" galvanized guy wires went slack, and the windward side held up well. Maybe I need to get all 4 guy wires tightened up.

Here is the Dropbox link for the videos I shot today during the 50+MPH winds. We had a gale warning today, 60MPH winds at the max.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xaxcunsq6...QWGtkrsYa?dl=0


My biggest complaint is that I want to combine both arrays easily. Using two boxes sucks and since I already use two boxes in my home theater, it's fine for me but a pain for all the other TV's in the house. I would like to have some kind of box that blocks unwanted weak signals from each direction. Maybe like a Jointenna. I have been told that there are companies that make them.

Any suggestions to any of the concerns I have?
Especially the two antennas into one input solution.

Finding a economical HD rotator would be nice too.

Thanks, Bob

P.S. Thanks to Rabbit73 for getting this post rolling. IN fact his help got mer through the whole project before I was approved to join TV Fool.

rabbit73 25-Feb-2019 3:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage (Post 60803)
Well, Lets try this again, took too long and got logged off!

Here's the update since 2016, I have been using both antenna arrays.

Hello again, Bob; good to hear from you.

A lot of my images aren't showing in this thread because my former image host, photobucket, refused to show them in posts unless I started paying them; I switched to another image host, imgur. Here are two photos of your antenna system that others might like to see:

https://i.imgur.com/iUAzjxe.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/J28IV3Y.jpg

Quote:

Reception has been good. Rotators are seized, with little hope of any help from Channel Master.
The CM rotators don't hold up very long; you would have to go to a ham rotator like the Yaesu G-450A Medium-Duty Rotator Systems G-450A, which would be more reliable but more expensive.
https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/ysu-g-450a

Quote:

Here is the Dropbox link for the videos I shot today during the 50+MPH winds. We had a gale warning today, 60MPH winds at the max.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xaxcunsq6...QWGtkrsYa?dl=0
I see some still images, but I don't see a video.

Quote:

My biggest complaint is that I want to combine both arrays easily. Using two boxes sucks and since I already use two boxes in my home theater, it's fine for me but a pain for all the other TV's in the house. I would like to have some kind of box that blocks unwanted weak signals from each direction. Maybe like a Jointenna. I have been told that there are companies that make them.
Right from the start I tried to encourage you to stick with just one direction like Chicago to keep it simple, but when I saw that you were determined to have reception from two directions, I tried to help you with that.

There are other ways of combining from two directions, but none of them are easy. I can list them if you want to see them.
Quote:

P.S. Thanks to Rabbit73 for getting this post rolling. IN fact his help got mer through the whole project before I was approved to join TV Fool.
Thank you for your kind words; I was glad to be of some help

bobsgarage 26-Feb-2019 1:01 AM

Updates on my systems
 
Hey Rabbit,

Yes. You warned me! And you are right, and IMHO the system is overcomplicated.

But that's what I wanted!

A while back, some one offered to build me a "box" , he was out of Poland I think. He said it could allow only the channels I wanted from either direction, but I got busy and blew it off.

What ways do you know to combine and get the signals in good from both directions?

Also, for some reason the videos did not attach to the Dropbox link, I re-added them check it again when you can. Either link works, this is for your convenience:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xaxcunsq6...QWGtkrsYa?dl=0

Here's the infamous "Above the antennas" video with the old RS VU210XR:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qhrya79180...ennas.mp4?dl=0

Better Video (2016) of the new array with the 91XG and the 30-2476:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4jvdkuw1wr...20002.MP4?dl=0

Tower Guy 26-Feb-2019 2:36 PM

The European filter is a good choice. Yet be aware that many stations in Chicago and Milwaukee will be changing channels in October. I’d wait to do a custom filter.

bobsgarage 26-Feb-2019 5:05 PM

Euro Filter?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tower Guy (Post 60808)
The European filter is a good choice. Yet be aware that many stations in Chicago and Milwaukee will be changing channels in October. I’d wait to do a custom filter.

Thanks Tower guy!

Yeah, heard that too. That's one of the reasons I didn't take it any further.

Any info on those European filters?

rabbit73 26-Feb-2019 6:02 PM

The European filters come from Jan Jenca in Slovakia.
http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/eng...ct/filtre.html


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