Request for antenna mounting advice by would-be poster stuck in limbo
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bobsgarage has been waiting for over two months to be able to post on this forum. I have been able to answer some reception questions for him by PM, but I don't have the experience to give him good answers about his antenna mounting problem. He asked me to post his question in the open forum to receive advice from members with the proper experience.
Bob lives in Zion, IL midway between Milwaukee and Chicago and wants to receive signals from both cities but doesn't want to use his rotator except for fine adjustments. He realizes that combining the two antennas doesn't always work and for now is considering separate coax lines. He also understands that it is possible to remove the reflector from a UHF bowtie antenna to make it bi-directional for both cities with some limitations. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...51346a60b4196b http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...6&d=1462659360 His main concern now is safe mounting of his antennas in the land of the "Windy City." He presently has a HDB91X UHF antenna at the top of the mast aimed at Milwaukee, and a Radio Shack VU-210XR VHF/UHF antenna below it aimed at Chicago, depending on rotator aim. http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...7&d=1462659983 He is surrounded by tall trees and is trying to raise his antennas high enough to clear them. He made a video with the camera creatively mounted on a 20 ft pole to take photos at antenna height. I made two stills from the video. The first is the UHF antenna aimed at Milwaukee: http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...8&d=1462660449 the second is the RS antenna aimed at Chicago, which has the stronger signals: http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...9&d=1462660662 Bob's PM: Be sure to look at video #3; there is a LOT of antenna movement in the wind. The music is wind chimes. Quote:
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Hi Bob,
By any chance, do you own that funny car?:) Your TVF looks to be about 8 miles south of me and w/in 1 or 2 degrees in both directions. 3/16" cable may be a bit overkill, but if you have it readily available, why not? I always recommend trying to hit a rafter w/ at least one of the tripod feet and drill a pilot because those lag bolts can snap. Underneath the remaining feet, you could also run lengths of 2X4 to act as load spreaders. Again, use pilot holes. |
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I thought more people would comment on your problem if I posted it. Your project is getting so complicated it is making my head spin. I prefer a simple system; more reliable and easier for a non-tech person to use. I don't think you need a preamp for the stronger signals from the south, but you can try the preamp with the north signals. Using a combiner doesn't always work; you just have to try it. |
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Posting your problem on AVS would be a good idea; they don't have a shortage of moderators. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/ One problem with AVS is that they loaded the site with so many ads, it takes a long time for a post to show because the script for the ads takes priority over the posts. And it doesn't help that they switched to a new forum software that is less user friendly. The software for this forum is much more user friendly. |
I answered Bob and apologized for overlooking his PM.
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You are making a lot of progress. Quote:
The mast sounds much more safe and secure. Thanks for the new video. It's just like I'm up there with the antennas; very exciting. Quote:
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I am also worried about the site. We really need tvfool reports to be able to help people with reception problems; there is no good substitute. I wonder if anyone knows why new members are not being accepted? What happened to GroundUrMast; is he still alive? What happened to Andy Lee; is he still alive? I find it hard to believe that Andy would let his "baby" die a slow death from neglect. Quote:
If you don't have a variable attenuator, you can use a few splitters as attenuators. A 2-way for 3.5 dB, and a 4-way for 7 dB. http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...8&d=1439497644 Quote:
Signal quality, as defined by SNR and uncorrected errors, is at least as important as signal strength, if not more so. It is possible to have a strong signal that is difficult to receive if it has poor quality. One example is when a strong VHF signal has a high noise level from electrical interference that reduces the SNR to below the 15 dB minimum required. This was so bad in Chicago that WBBM CBS had to move from real channel 2 to channel 12. The noise level on VHF-Low is worse than on VHF-High. If the current auction forces broadcasters to use VHF-Low, it will be necessary for them to increase their power for satisfactory reception. When aiming an antenna, I first adjust for max signal strength. Then I monitor signal quality for final adjustment. Max signal quality isn't always at the same azimuth as max signal strength, usually because of multipath reflections that create a non-uniform field. My Sony KDL22L5000 has a Diagnostics Screen that gives signal strength, SNR, and uncorrected errors. Bad signal with picture freeze, SNR below 15 dB, and errors: http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...9&d=1433425884 Good signal: http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...7&d=1438807179 It is also possible to check signal quality with converter boxes or external tuners that have two signal bars, one for signal quality (the inverse of uncorrected errors), and one for signal strength, like the Apex DT502 or Centronics ZAT502HD: http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...5&d=1438807104 You can also use the Diagnostics Screen of the TiVo Roamio that gives signal strength, SNR, and the inverse of uncorrected errors; see attachment 1. or the SiliconDust HDHR that shows signal strength, signal quality (SNR), and symbol quality (inverse of uncorrected errors): http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...2&d=1299721670 That image is from a thread by GroundUrMast: An Alternative to Rotators and Antenna Combiners http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=820 You said you had a Zenith converter box. I connected a Zenith and an Apex to a splitter and used both to aim an antenna. My tests seem to indicate that the Zenith signal bar is a combination of signal strength AND signal quality. The Apex, with a separate signal quality bar gives better resolution of changes in signal quality. See attachment 2. |
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I think your neighbor might be a little jealous of your efforts. I hope he is taking into consideration the magnetic declination of 4 degrees. The Google map is oriented so that the top is True North. I added a grid to the satellite view and it looks square to me. The final authority would be a USGS topographic map of your area that might be at your local library. http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1463941798 I think the argument is unimportant because you are going to aim your antenna for best reception, no matter what azimuth it is. Signals are often skewed and can come in at the "wrong" azimuth. As long as your rotator can repeat the same direction for you, that's all you need. Quote:
Also, if you are using an FM filter, it might be taking out part of channel 6. http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...4&d=1463945009 |
I can't receive WRME via TV either, but I get 87.7 FM fairly well, w/ a double folded dipole.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WRME-LP http://metv.fm/ http://www.stationindex.com/tv/callsign/WRME-LP http://www.robertfeder.com/2016/02/1...-high-ratings/ |
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The site is slooooowwwwww and some of the tools are a bit obtuse, but what to you expect from a government agency. |
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Post #1 shows 4 images, can you see all 4? Post #1 has 4 attachments that are duplicates of the 4 images. I assume you can not see the attachments. Post #2 has no images or attachments Post #3 has no images or attachments Post #4 has no images or attachments Post #5 has no images showing, but it has 3 attachments of your race car for Stereocraig which I assume you can't see. Post #6 has no images or attachments Post #7 has no images showing. It has 2 attachments of stills I made from your long project 1 video. I assume you can't see them. Post #8 has 5 images showing 1. Noise Margin Diagram 2. Bad Sony signal 3. Good Sony signal 4. Dual signal bars 5. SiliconDust signal monitor Can you see all 5 images in the post? Post #8 has 2 attachments; I assume you can't see them. 1. TiVo Diagnostics Screen 2. Zenith signal bar Post #9 had 2 images showing: 1. Aerial view of your street with grid 2. Spectrum Analyzer screen showing CH6 and FM signals can you see them? Post #9 has 4 attachments 1. dupe of image 1 2. another street aerial with grid 3. and another street aerial with grid; one was really enough 4. dupe of image 2 What images do you want that you aren't able to see? Quote:
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I've read through most of this thread, and I gotta say, nice job bobsgarage. I thought about ordering one of those VHF-Hi antennas also for my mother's house. I'm sorry no one has approved you to post in the forums. I remember it took a long time for me to be able to do so. I hope your set up works well for you.
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In order to see latitude and longitude as well as draw directional lines on a google map I use the web site heywhatsthat.com. Click on new panorama and enter your address. The Lat and long will be displayed below the map.
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I will have to show ALL of the attachments. I wanted to avoid doing that if you can ALREADY see the image in the post. |
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http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psodakjzqt.jpg http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...ps3qdsnyxm.jpg http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...pscv2o1oin.jpg http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psgmr62rr0.jpg to be continued as time permits. |
Bob,
However you orient it, you may want to set it so you can access that 355 heading from the eastern half, VS going CW all the way around. There are just more signals on the eastern side, than you could expect to receive from the western side. You should rotate the control full CCW until it stops and then full CW, until it stops.If nothing is broken, it should now be in sync. Don't expect a full 360 from any rotor, because there is a steel limiting pin on the main shaft. |
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http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psxcnzdvws.jpg http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psuxfqafxp.jpg http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psisjyprh4.jpg to be continued as time permits |
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http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psyhkm3prx.jpg http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...ps941fdxnm.jpg to be continued as time permits |
Post #8 attachments
http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...pswk8paz3s.jpg http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...pshfo2aw9a.jpg to be continued as time permits |
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Is input #2 only for cable and not antenna? |
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Can you see the photos in posts 17-22? This is turning out to be harder than I thought it would be. It looks like you are not allowed to see any attachments or any images derived from attachments. |
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more post #8 images http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...oiseMargin.jpg Bad signal: http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...IMG_0226_1.jpg Good signal: http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...IMG_0222_1.jpg Dual signal bars: http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psoiijdipf.jpg http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psac8tl29l.png |
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How did you connect the Zenith to the TV? |
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If you need a newer distribution amp, try the Channel Master 3414. Quote:
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The TB-105 bearing is no longer available, so Bob has spent a lot of time perfecting his bearings. His photo #7 of 19 edited to show close up of both antenna systems. Very impressive, Bob: http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...psdkgpzqfu.jpg |
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It looks like you have reached your goal, Bob; well done! Glad that we were able to help you. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...51346a60b4196b |
Good job, Bob.
And you haven't even sniffed for Michigan, or Indiana, yet.:) |
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What's going on at tvfool? http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=15920 |
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Thanks for the report, Bob. The masts look much more stable now in a strong wind. Quote:
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Sniffing across Lake Michigan
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I have sniffed to across the lake to Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, etc, no good. I rotated the tallest antenna (91XG & 30-2476) East and slowly rotated from SE to NE and had no such luck. I even rotated the the lower mast east (HDB91X & 30-2476) with no luck. Finally I combined both masts, which I didn't expect any results from, but hey, it didn't hurt anything. NO luck. I have an Oak tree of my own and others in the near proximity exactly in the whole 3 to 160 degree ie. almost due north to due south range, so it will have to wait until after autumn, in the ice cold of winter. Even then, in winter most Oaks retain some browned off leaf clumps on selected branches through out the winter and finally drop them in spring when the buds break. Still it should be a chance to "Sniff" :) Of Indiana stations I get WYIN 56.1 76 miles out but it is in that narrow 164 degree direction as my Chicago stations. The antennas are shooting the gap between two trees. I am happy to get WYIN though, I like PBS and programming is a little different than the other PBS stations. How about you? What luck have you had? |
Well Bob, not much has changed w/ my antennas.
Spent most of the summer preparing for my daughter's wedding and maintenance on my parent's farm. I occasionally receive Kalamazoo and Grand Rapids, w/ an an occasional Green Bay. WYIN and WNDU, not so much. I'll probably give up on Madison and Rockford for the time being. The 91XG is probably the best I'll be able to DX with, until I can complete my mesh dish project and trim back some Maple branches. I've made the driven element and shield for it and now need to fab a mounting bracket w/ swivel and maybe tilt. |
Update 3 years later !!!
Well, Lets try this again, took too long and got logged off!
Here's the update since 2016, I have been using both antenna arrays. Reception has been good. Rotators are seized, with little hope of any help from Channel Master. The "Milwaukee array" is not so tall about 15 feet from the roof peak. The Chicago array is 35 Feet above the roof peak with a 10' tripod for stability at the base and guy wires with eyelet hooks into roof rafters reinforcements. Very sturdy. The Chicago array is heavy. The mast is 1 3/8" SS 20 with waterpipe slid inside. Double wall if you will. On top are a Antenna Direct XG 91 and a Stellar Labs 30-2476. Because of the height, I used 3/16 guy wires and a special custom bearing I designed. Today the wind was brutal. The leeward side 1/4" galvanized guy wires went slack, and the windward side held up well. Maybe I need to get all 4 guy wires tightened up. Here is the Dropbox link for the videos I shot today during the 50+MPH winds. We had a gale warning today, 60MPH winds at the max. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xaxcunsq6...QWGtkrsYa?dl=0 My biggest complaint is that I want to combine both arrays easily. Using two boxes sucks and since I already use two boxes in my home theater, it's fine for me but a pain for all the other TV's in the house. I would like to have some kind of box that blocks unwanted weak signals from each direction. Maybe like a Jointenna. I have been told that there are companies that make them. Any suggestions to any of the concerns I have? Especially the two antennas into one input solution. Finding a economical HD rotator would be nice too. Thanks, Bob P.S. Thanks to Rabbit73 for getting this post rolling. IN fact his help got mer through the whole project before I was approved to join TV Fool. |
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A lot of my images aren't showing in this thread because my former image host, photobucket, refused to show them in posts unless I started paying them; I switched to another image host, imgur. Here are two photos of your antenna system that others might like to see: https://i.imgur.com/iUAzjxe.jpg https://i.imgur.com/J28IV3Y.jpg Quote:
https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/ysu-g-450a Quote:
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There are other ways of combining from two directions, but none of them are easy. I can list them if you want to see them. Quote:
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Updates on my systems
Hey Rabbit,
Yes. You warned me! And you are right, and IMHO the system is overcomplicated. But that's what I wanted! A while back, some one offered to build me a "box" , he was out of Poland I think. He said it could allow only the channels I wanted from either direction, but I got busy and blew it off. What ways do you know to combine and get the signals in good from both directions? Also, for some reason the videos did not attach to the Dropbox link, I re-added them check it again when you can. Either link works, this is for your convenience: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xaxcunsq6...QWGtkrsYa?dl=0 Here's the infamous "Above the antennas" video with the old RS VU210XR: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qhrya79180...ennas.mp4?dl=0 Better Video (2016) of the new array with the 91XG and the 30-2476: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4jvdkuw1wr...20002.MP4?dl=0 |
The European filter is a good choice. Yet be aware that many stations in Chicago and Milwaukee will be changing channels in October. I’d wait to do a custom filter.
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Euro Filter?
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Yeah, heard that too. That's one of the reasons I didn't take it any further. Any info on those European filters? |
The European filters come from Jan Jenca in Slovakia.
http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/eng...ct/filtre.html |
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