Questions about PreAmps and Signal Amps while a waiting new antenna arrival
 

Although I've been around for a while, I've never attempted OTA reception until recently.
Like many others, I'm fed up with Cable Rates and, since I'm now forced into "retirement" by the economy (I did interior painting and Wallpaper installation and removal) and with Rates going up like they are, I am going to suffer the loss of watching Philadelphia Phillies (my passion) and I am going to OTA reception. I love the clarity!

Here is my Channel Analysis Chart:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...40330a07346c5a

I made a temporary antenna and just have a quad sheilded cable running from it down the roof and into a window in my room with the big screen TV, right now. No pre-amp.

I u-bolted it to the j-mount from an old DirTV dish that I removed. If you soom in, you can see the old DirTV dish sitting on the north end of the roof if you use these co-ordinates:39.714037,-75.662016 It sits just above my second story peak on the N end of the roof but, the line-of-site isn't the best, pointing NE towards the Philly stations because of a line of 45-50 foot spruce tree that are two properties N of me. The trees extend to the E and end at the left edge of my line-of-site, NE of the current mast position on my roof.

I have to take a picture of my current antenna and post it but, I used #8 solid bare copper wire, purchased at H.D. and and fashioned the elements in a Hooverman antenna configuration something like this
http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/index.htm
but instead of the horizontal reflector elements, I just used a 1/4" screen which I know won't work in snowy weather. It was an experiment and I get 3-1, 6-1 (-2&-3), 10-1(-2,-3). 12-1,-2,-3 and 17-1, and 23-1 are all too weak to lock. I wonder if a pre-amp will help. I'm going get back up there and make a minor adjustment, today. 29-1 (FOX) is also too weak to lock. I do get 57-1 and 61-1 as well as 48-1,-2,-3, and -4.

Does a pre-amp have electric powering it? Is there a difference between a pre-amp and a power booster? I'm a bit confused about that.

Yesterday, I "bit the bullet" and I ordered this stuff:
1 of WINEGARD TB-0005 5-Feet Swedged Masting Antenna Mount
1 of EAGLE ASPEN 500065 SINGLE WIRE ANTENNA ROTATOR
1 of Winegard HD7698P HDTV High Band VHF-UHF Antenna

I would like to use the J-mount that I have the home-made antenna attached to. I want to eventually move it down to the south end of the roof so that I can miss those trees when I point the antenna towards the 55-57 degree plain. I realize that I am going to have to deal with grounding issues and the slitters for the other rooms in the house are in the basement on the N side of the house, where the j-mount is, now. but, I have to deal with this line-of-sight issue.

Am I after a signal booster or a preamp to increase the signal to my TV or is there nothing else that I can do but await the arrival of my new TV?

Thanks for any advice.

Has anyone attached a rotor to one of them?
That's my game plan.
Any comments or ideas would be appreciated.

I didn't want to go over a hundred for an antenna. This stuff is "breaking the bank", already for me. SS doesn't go very far, trust me on that one.

It seems like you are already have a fairly good understanding of your situation. The large trees are not helping your situation. A DIY antenna project can work well, but if there are problems, very few DIYers have the test gear and knowledge to test and refine the antenna.

Regarding an amplifier, you'll get better results using a preamp. The actual amplifier is mounted on the mast near the antenna were the signal quality has not been degraded by a coax run into the building. Power for the amplifier is inserted into the coax at a convenient (dry) location inside the building. No amplifier will make an antenna 'stronger' nor will an amplifier correct multipath or on-channel interference. Amplifiers are able to overcome the loss of cable and splitters on the output side of the amplifier, and to a limited degree, overcome poor tuner noise figure if such a problem exists.

In you case I would consider an Antennas Direct CPA-19 or a Winegard HDP-269 preamp.

I'll be interested to hear how the HD7698P performs with WPVI, real CH-6. I'm hoping there is enough signal in the air to overcome the lack of low-VHF support in the HD769X design.

I would doubt it. Adding WPVI will require a real low band antenna. The cheapest is the CS-600, but the gain is marginal. Better is a Y5-2-6. Use a HLSJ to add it to the HD7698P.

Baseball was better on radio than TV!

Tv Reception with Tv antennas
 

I would have ordered and installed a HD7084P all channel antenna , for reception of digital channels , VHF low band channels 2 thru 6 , VHF high band channels 7 thru 13 , UHF channels 14 thru 69. And aim the HD7084P antenna at about 70 degree magnetic compass. Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html

Still in the Valley of Descision regarding antenna.
 

I found another antenna, even though I have already ordered one, that I may choose. It has a number of really good reviews. This is it:
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751R-Ou...uct/B0024R4B5C

I failed to mention in previous posts that my home-made antenna includes so rabbit ears. Perhaps that is why I am getting the VHF channel six so well.

I attached a picture of the antenna that I made, taken from the ground level. Again, this is TEMPORARY.

Continuing with the original thread subject, I am perplexed by what has happened since my last post.

I did receive the 8180 preamp that I ordered and, as per the directions, I hooked it up temporarily right at the TV. I ran another channel scan, an to my dismay, 29-1, the local fox station disappeared! I immediately removed the preamp, again, and re-scanned the channels. 29-4 is gone! Before, I had a weak (42-44 strength meter reading) signal that would drop off and wouldn't lock in. Now, it doesn't even exist after scanning. ...didn't go up and move the antenna. I don't understand.

The preamp didn't really seem to help that much. I was hoping that it was going to amplify the signal from 29.1. Instead, I've lost 29.1 (FOX), altogether. My other channels are still coming in but with no significant improvement.

I am still waiting for the order that include the rotor and upper mast. And I want to order a diplexer with threaded connectors. The one that I soldered to my home-made is a Radio Shack P.O.C. without a threaded connector and there are plenty of them in the Internet.

I appreciate the comments and the links. I did know how to point an antenna but, that will help someone, I'm sure.

Tv Reception with Tv antennas
 

As an example , the HD7698P is 168.25 inches long , is not a all band/channel antenna , and is $121.99 at solidsignal . The HD7084P is 131 inches long , Is a All Band/Channel antenna , and is $88.99 at solidsignal. With the HD7084P antenna aimed at about 70 degree magnetic compass , All of the major networks will be received plus A Lot of other tv stations and digital sub channels with no preamplifier or amplifier. And no rotor.

Tv Reception with Tv antennas
 

Most of the group of tv stations at about 256 degree magnetic compass are showing some co-channel interference and are much weaker in signal strength. For reception of the group of tv stations at about 256 degree magnetic compass use a Winegard HDP269 preamp with the HD7084P antenna. And a rotor. The HDP269 preamp can also be used with/for receiving the the group of tv stations at about 70 degree magnetic compass. Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html . Here are some places to buy antennas and etc. , http://www.winegardgarddirect.com , http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www.amazon.com.

Rotors
 

I recommend using Quad shied coax with the Eagle Aspen rotor for Maximum power transfer between the inside unit and outside unit. The extra metal shield is better for power transfer. And also use Quad shied coax that has the Solid Copper center wire. Not copper covered steel.

Tv Reception with Tv antennas
 

DO NOT in any way shape or form use that part or parts of the coax that has any type or kind - Active - cable delivered service , be it cable tv , cable phone service , cable internet service or any other type or kind active cable delivered service. Yes it is Ok to use coax that has No type or kind of cable service to get the antenna signal from point A to point B . If you need to , run new coax. Do Not connect the tv antenna to active cable service of any type or kind.

Taking Advice to heart
 

I will be returning the preamp and the antenna that I just purchased and will go by your advice.

I wish that I could understand the difference between all of these preamps taht I have seen. I've seen a comparison chart and it appears that they only differ in gain and whether or not they have a FM trap...the difference between them is greek to me. I've read that more gain isn't necessarily better but, what about my situation has prompted your choices?

I didn't realize until I researched the WGDHD7084P, that it is like a little sister to the 8200 and, if I had not shied away from the size and price, I may have gone with that, earlier.

I'll take your advice on both the antenna and the preamp that you have suggested, I did notice that one that you are suggesting, the I did know that I shouldn't combine cable company and OTA signals in the same coax but, thanks anyway.

The cable that I am currently running from my temporary home-made is quad shielded RG6. I will only use quad on any new coax that I use, but, I know that the rest of the house has an inferior cable that the cable company may have put in when it was built. I had already thought of running this quad shielded cable that I am using with the temp antenna and running it with the rotor cable, once I get it. That one-cable design that the rotor advertises was not my reason for ordering that model.

I'll post again, once I get everything returned and your suggestions on the roof. Thank you.

Tv Reception with Tv antennas
 

The quad shield is for the connection of the Eagle Aspen rotor inside unit to outside unit. Standard RG-6 coax of the type that has one foil shield and some shield wires is Ok for the rest of the house coax wiring. Quad shield for normal low interference areas for housing wiring is not needed. Yes it is Ok to use quad shield , however standard RG-6 is not inferior. . . With quad shield , the extra layers of shielding can get pushed in close or touching the center conductor and cause bad signal transfer , all so look at the foam that surrounds the center wire , if it is smashed in , then make it more round. Need a nice clean connection on the inside of the connector that is on the end of the coax , standard shield or quad shield.

Tv Reception with Tv antennas
 

As you may or may not know , there are the Real Digital Broadcast Tv Channels and the Virtual Digital Broadcast Tv Channels. The Real digital tv channels are the channels that are being transmitted and received. Then there is the Virtual channels , virtual channels are Not real. Of most cases , the virtual channels are Legacy channel numbers , the tv channel the tv station was on before the change to digital. Yes I know that when you look at the list of tv channels that some channel numbers are the same , real and virtual. Even so , real is real and virtual is virtual.

That one won't pick up WPVI either.

Tv antennas and tv reception
 

So that you do not continue selecting antennas that will Not work. Here is a antenna that will , HD8200U. However it is really your choice , you can select and use Any antenna.

The HD8200U is not over-kill IMO. It will give you the best chance at reliable reception of WPVI, real CH-6 and with the aid of a rotator it give you access to weaker signals smaller antennas can not.

Received the antenna. Now some setup guidance would be helpful, please
 

I got assembled the 7084, today. It takes up the floor space in my one-car garage! I'm moving the J-mount ( that has two side-struts that also get lagged into the roof) from the N to the S end of the roof where a cleaner LOS toward the Philly Stations will be obtained.
I believe that I can attach the EAGLE ASPEN 500065 SINGLE WIRE ANTENNA ROTATOR to the 2" J-mount, then mount the preamp and the 7084 to the 5' upper mast section that I also ordered. (hard to believe that there isn't a place to buy a tripod antenna mount around here)
I anticipate connecting the antenna to the preamp and that to the rotor and then continuing on down to the family room and the Big Screen.
I have decided not to return the other preamp with more gain because I am going to eventually connect this antenna to my splitters and feed most of the house.

Since no cable and no instructions came with the Eagle Aspen Rotor I am open to suggestions. There are two coax connections on the bottom of the Rotor- one from the controller and one to the antenna(preamp). Given the hookups available. The controller has two coax connections as well- one labeled "Rotor" and the other labeled "Receiver." I suppose that means TV in my case. So, I have two questions. How would I go about running a separate power line without jerry-rigging it at the Rotor on the roof? AND will the power injector inside the house used to power the preamp, interact with the power running the Rotor servos in the coax?

Both the rotator and the preamp expect to send their power down the same coax. Obviously, that won't work.

The best solutions are a different rotator that doesn't use the coax, or a second coax just for the rotator.

Thanks for your post. Installation procedures were confirmed by by a picture I found online showing one and two coax set-ups.
Still looking for operating instructions operation of the rotor.

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 

Most but not all radio shack stores have tripod mounts. Or here are some mounts , http://www.ronard.com/909911.html , http://www.ronard.com/34426560.html , http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html

Almost Finished
 

I moved the Direct TV j-mount toward the S end of the roof and mounted the Rotor on it and then attached the 5' mast and the Winegard 7084 to the upper rotor receptacle.
I am going to apply the silicone around the feet (already used the patch material UNDER the feet) and attach the ground strap, today.
Since I am still attempting to determine the best set-up, starting with doing the least, I ran only one cable to the antenna/rotor and set up with NO preamp. This is what I am receiving:

REAL Channels

With the Rotor at 65 degrees,
26, 34, 17, 6, 35, 32, 31, 25, 42, 29, 27, 12, & 22, all with TV Signal Meter readings in the 70s and 80s.
With the Rotor at 230 degrees,
11, 13, 38

My downlead from the antenna to the rotor is a foot too short so I am not going to put strain on it be rotating beyond 235 degrees but, I am going to change that lead and attempt to pick up the Lancaster PA stations, after the lead change.

I believe that it is important to note, here, BEFORE purchasing a preamp, the choice of a which one to get is determined by how many splits and consequential gain losses one anticipates and has NOTHING to do with your reception. I have read posts where the poster is "hoping to pull in stations with weak signal strength with the addition of a preamp and, from my experience, that isn't going to happen.

This Winegard HD7084 is very impressive, pulling in everything that I expected except a few more Latino channels. I thought that I was picking up three when I briefly had the Clearstream C4 but, I didn't make at note, at that time, of what I was receiving so I'm not sure about the three just mentioned.

I am going to keep the two pre-amps that I purchased because I am eventually going to go into the attach and connect to a downlead to my (currently) cable splitters in the basement so that the rest of the TVs in the house will have OTA.

I wonder how many others that currently have to pay $50/mo for CTV that includes the sports stations (not available with the economy pkg) would switch to OTA if there was just ONE OTA sports broadcast for their area. Perhaps this should go in another sub-thread but, Why doesn't the consumer band together and boycott the cable companies for a couple of months and really cripple them into providing what WE want? Personally, I am probably going to learn a new life-style: LISTENING TO my Philadelphia Phillies instead of watching them.

Thanks to all of your guys for your info, suggestions, and recommendations. I feel as if I have done well with your help.

Just one more question. I've attached a couple of pictures of the new antenna and rotor. The mast is and inch and half 5'. The Rotor is sitting on the J-mount (which had a level sight glass in the top of it). I didn't feel top heavy but, IMO, it 'looks' top heavy. Should I be concerned?

In my opinion, the J-mount is not sufficient for the weight/windload of the installation. A tripod with thicker legs will be needed & the lag screws need to be anchored through rafters or with some type of re-inforcement inside the attic. I've done a tripod mount before, but since I used guy wires, I just ran the lag screws through the roofs plywood under the shingles. I'm sure others here will be more knowledgeable with how much support a non guyed installation will require.

I would certainly address this soon as a strong cold front with high winds is due here late Sunday night.

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 

I recommend lowering the HD7084P antenna on the mast so as to reduce the side ways leverage twisting in the rotating part of the rotator. A better way to do it is to have the mast that the body of the rotator is clamped to , longer and the mast that the antenna is clamped to shorter. The j mount with the brace rods will be a good strong setup if screwed/bolted in to the roof good and strong.

Thanks for the opinion, NSAA. I didn't count all of the costs to include in this project and I didn't order a tripod. I wanted to spend as little as possible and ended up ordering an antenna that I have to return. Do you think that a 5' tripod would do the job without g.wires?
If I do use guy wires, do they make a special clamp that I could use to attach the guy wires to the upper mast or are U-bolts suitable? I would really like to find a clamp that provides an "eye" for the wires at the mast end.

[Watching the Alumni Winter Classic Hockey Game on Comcastsportnet. This is the only part of OTA lifestyle that's going to drive me nuts. hope not ]

The braced J-pole is far better than one without bracing.

5' tripods are very strong and make a premium quality foundation for virtually all OTA TV antennas.

If you have access to the attic, blocking between rafters can be added after drilling through the roof deck (it's easy to locate the blocking precisely once to hole has been drilled). Construction grade screws through the rafters into each end of the blocking will transfer load to the rafters. With bolts through each tripod foot, through the roof and deck materials and through the blocking, you'll achieve a very strong anchorage with little chance of fasteners pulling out under stress. Use pitch pads and roofing sealant (of course).

Thanks for the recommendations guys. Just hate to see the next picture of the Op's antenna laying in the backyard. I've used the smaller 7082 & it is heavier than it looks & needs a sturdy mount, especially with a rotator. I would say it is at least as heavy as the 2 antennas in my photo combined.

I have searched for a couple of hours with no luck to find a guy wire ring/clamp that would allow the mast to turn inside the ring when the rotor turns. I am not going with a tripod mount bc I have a metal ridge vent on the roof and I'm still set on using my supported J-mount as the base mount. I was going to post this elsewhere in the forum but, can't find the right sub-forum to start a thread regarding this issue. Can anyone suggest an arrangement that may work for me, using the current base mount and rotor arrangement?

Lowered the the antenna on the mast until the weather breaks. Bought some galvanized pipe (much thicker wall. There won't be any sway with these as masts.), today and had it cut to lengths of 2.5 feet each. I'll move the rotor up and secure the antenna to the upper 2.5 when weather permits. Lowering it, today, did not affect the reception. Waiting for a little warmer, less breezy weather.

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 

It is better to keep the questions and answers in one place , that way the information does not get all tangled up.

Final Setup Until Spring Arrives
 

I finally removed the 5' mast and installed a 2.5' mast that is 1.5" galvanized pipe. It is much heavier and more rigid than "antenna mast" material and I have adequate reception at this height.
I've attached a picture of what I have, now. In the Spring, I'll bring the cable into the attack and attach it to coax that runs down the far corner of the house and into the basement where my splitters are located so that I can supply my other rooms.
It is great to receive all of the digital and HD stations out of Philly, crystal-clear and without breakup. Now, for the first time in a long time, I am enjoying HD, FREE! Well...minus the things that I have purchased to make this plan come true.
Thanks to all who assisted. Pointed at 65-70 degrees (Where is the degree sign on my keyboard?), I'm getting all of Philly's transmissions.
I have rotated to 230-235 degrees and receive three or four Baltimore stations, as well.:)

Where is the degree sign on my keyboard?
 

The character " ° " can be input by holding down the 'ALT' key and then keying "0176", then release the 'ALT' key.

You can Google, Yahoo, Bing, etc. "Alt key codes" for many other special characters, or http://www.tedmontgomery.com/tutorial/altchrc.html

for example ALT-234 = Ω for when you prefer to say 75Ω instead of 75 ohms. Or ALT-230 = µ as in 47 µV (47 micro-Volts)

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 

Thank you for the positive happiness about the tv reception. I have some questions about digital channel WPVI-DT 6 ABC . The VHF low band of tv channels of 2 thru 6 are subject interference , more so then the other tv channels of VHF high 7 thru 13 and UHF 14 thru 69. I will like to know the quality of reception you are getting of channel. . What is the ongoing signal strength?? Are there any drop outs of reception?? Any pixelation?? . Any differences of daytime reception and nighttime reception. Thank you and please provide the information it is important , so as to better help the other question askers here with VHF low band tv reception.

Absolutely! Your feedback here or in the Low VHF reception (2 - 6) Experience & Opinions thread would be quite welcome and appreciated.

Low band VHF tv reception
 

I have Always Advocated the Reception of the Low Band Tv Digital Channels 2 thru 6. ground ur mast , dave loudin and some other helpers here at tvfool did every thing they could to steer question askers away from receiving channels 2 thru 6. And tried there best to stop me from Advocating and Helping question askers receive channels 2 thru 6. Now ground ur mast acts like he/she is all in favor of the reception of channels 2 thru 6. And must have invented channels 2 thru 6 in the first place. What a bunch of _________.

Hold down the ALT key, type 0176 on the NUM keypad to the right of the QWERTY keyboard.

VHF low is generally questioned with LD stations or ones with alternative programming. ABC-6 is very necessary in the OP's situation to receive all the major networks, so well worth the trouble in this case.

But VHF LO & HI are still more problematic for most with digital TV IMO. UHF rocks!!

No Problematic Issues, here
 

This may not be conclusive but, without exception, every signal meter reading for the last three days (one in the morning and one in the evening) has resulted in a 78-to-82 reading that does not fluctuate as some other channels do. It is a steady 78 with no drops-off.

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 

Thank you , DEDon . Clear and steady reception on channel 6 , and channels other then 6 are not so steady. For low band digital channels 2 thru 6 , I do what I can to get the question askers the reception.

Tv antennas and Tv reception
 

Necessary and not necessary reception , an interesting point of view , of an other helper here at tvfool. About UHF Tv channels 14 thru 69 reception , it is not the perfect transmission and reception that is implied by , UHF rocks!! In the past Analog UHF Tv transmissions were easly reduced and blocked by trees and buildings. And Digital UHF Tv transmissions are More easly reduced and blocked by trees and buildings then Analog.

Follow-up to original post regarding reception
 

A couple of issues are important IMO to note, here. Originally, I did NOT include the pre-amp in my roof-top array. I wish to add these notes to assist browsers on this subject in the future.
When I ordered my OTA antenna, I ordered two different pre-amps, figuring that I would just sell one of them once I determined which would work better with my set-up.
However, when I set everything up on the roof, I attempted to leave out the pre-amp, entirely, and test the reception that way. I was very happy with the results without the pre-amp and left it (both of them) out of the set-up.