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I am inclined to believe Tower Guy because he has extensive RF experience and knowledge, but I would have to demonstrate it to myself to see what would happen and I don't think I have the necessary equipment. If one antenna and preamp was receiving channel A with an SNR of 18 dB, and the second antenna (aimed in a different direction) and preamp was receiving channel B also with an SNR of 18 dB, would the SNRs of both signals then be 15 dB after combining because of the NFs adding together, or would the result be difficult to predict because of the contribution of other "noise" from the antenna not properly aimed at the desired channel? |
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Thank you for the clarification.
I think I understand how the notch filter (or attenuator) on the output of the antenna not aimed at the desired channel will help, but is there any other way of combining that would retain the SNRs of the antennas not combined for the OP other than single channel amps as in a headend? Is combining after the power inserters using two coax lines, equivalent to combining after the preamps using just one coax line as far as results are concerned? |
Combining the Ouput of Two Preamps can Reduce Weak Signal Sensitivity
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I assembled what equipment I had on hand to investigate what happens when the output of two preamps are combined with a splitter in reverse.
Equipment used: Blonder Tongue HAVM-1UA Agile Modulator - 470-806 MHz, output ~ +30dBmV Sadelco DisplayMax 800 Signal Level Meter (SLM) Sadelco 719E Signal Level Meter (SLM) 2 Channel Master 7777HD Preamps RCA TVPRAMP1R Preamp to increase sensitivity of SLMs 2-way splitter used as a combiner 3 20dB fixed attenuators 1 10dB fixed attenuator 1 6 dB fixed attenuator For a test signal, I used the video carrier of analog channel 20 from the modulator. The 6 dB attenuator was used to adjust the sensitivity of the SLM to keep the readings centered on one range of the SLM to avoid switching to another range. The noise floor of the measurement system was well below the noise from the 7777HD, so the NF of the RCA preamp could be ignored. http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1440873529 I made the first measurements with the DisplayMax 800 SLM, on the right in the photo. The modulator signal is quite stable within 0.1 dB, and the SLM has 0.1 dB resolution. However, I had a problem measuring the random noise from the CM7777HD because the SLM digital display would follow the rapid changes, making it difficult to read. I switched to the 719E SLM (on the left) and its slower response was able to average the noise reading for me. The noise was measured on a nearby channel not used by the modulator. http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1502665287 http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...7&d=1498343132 Code:
SNR of CM7777HD #1 Code:
SNR of CM7777HD #1 combined with CM7777HD #2 My equipment isn't lab grade, but I have enough confidence in my measurements to conclude that combining the output of two preamps with a splitter in reverse causes a loss of sensitivity that can have a critical negative affect on marginal signals near the digital cliff. |
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Hello,
I wanted to show off a bit. I completed erecting my tower. I am receiving all channels I expected. What surprised me is I didn't need a preamp to get all those channels. 35 miles is the closest tower and 70 miles is the farthest. I appreciate everyone's help along the way. I'm thinking about what else I can play with. Maybe something with FM or FTA. https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....7&d=1553180949 https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....1&d=1553180974 |
What a great looking setup! How high is your tower? Is that a project box or a rotor I see up there?
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Thanks! It's a 50' Rohn 25G with a 10' mast. The box is a demarcation box for coax connections. It made weather proofing the connections easier. It's big enough to house a preamp if I need to when the trees leave. I had to play with different length coax cable connections to deal with multipath interference.
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Wow that's too much on that tower and is the tower grounded
and when you use a Gray box's that size I can believe the insert loss And you should have the uhf on top and the seller's below. Multipath.is becuse of the box??stand back and tack a good look at where it sits and when you put your VHF in the same box. Is not good that is why you keep the vh F out of reach.frum the uhf. And that is why you are getting multipath and if you are looking for true vh F you should use a separate feed line for vhf.AND use an A/B switcher frum VHF/UHF!!! and the uhf antenna Direct 91x are too far apart that should be 3ft apart and the feed line frum the ANTENNA to the T connections should be 3ft long,and the ANTENNA Direct 91x Should be faced the same way and the same for the seller's LAB antennas too that can all so creat MULTIPATH as well It looks like you have a good mess too fix well I had the same set up but the other way around and with the title sistom for the 91xg!!!and no MULTPATH Prblem'S and the hi vh F 1500miles of RECEIVE range with a channel master 7777amp And for CABLE I used RG8u frum the ANTENNA to the amp's board and close to the ANTENNA as possible for best results!!!and a good rotor too tern all 4.ANTENNAS And the uhf RECEIVE range with a 45+45dbg,Johansson anp kit 200miles of RECEIVE range SIGNAL strength of 100%on A 150ft tower and no dropouts with my inverted V antenna for the HAM band use and my spectrometer for all my needs. |
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Do not need a combinder? Or a T connections to add a vhf/uhf ANTENNAS |
WELKIN,
That is a fine looking and performing setup you have! Congratulations on a job well done! Joe AZ |
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And yes look'S that'S a lot of money involved And the best ANTENNA and a NICE TOWER!! And what A shame on the RECEIVE range But with a few changes and a good tweak!! And defentle no dropouts and all channels Day or night and then you will have One He'll of an ANTENNA set-up!!!! Let's tweak it and have no dropouts single!!!! Just like ten Hours of work. |
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HI Gain antenna when stacking them Have to be TRUE in line with one another not off set,same with the ANTENNA Direct 91st an OTHER HIGH gaIN antenna when stacking them they have to stay true Not off set it makes MultiPATH, maybe you can adjust your antenna 'S And to tune the ANTENNA 's but you have to get rid of the DISTRIBUTION AMP. Hi GaIN antenna do not like them they all so creating MULTIPATH. And they say not to use them on hi gain ANTENNA like the 91xg&seller's lab! HI Gain!!! And why you should use a good amp I know you do not want too spend more money!! But when stacking ANTENNAs the amp is used to tune the ANTENNA's iT's Just not about the dbg,it all so tunes. The antenna. |
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I went in to this to achieve the goal of getting all channels available in my area to combine in to one input on my DVR (TiVo). I understand why I have multipath and the inherent problems with this setup. While not ideal, this set up is performing flawlessly with no dropouts and all available channels. There are NO amount of tweaks or changes that would make ANY noticeable difference to the end user to enhance the experience. 100% signal vs. 85% signal does not matter in this case. I do not know how else to put it. As ADTech said, every antenna installation is an experiment. I had a blast over the last 3 years getting to this point and have learned some things on the way. I did all the work myself with the help of my 8 year old son. Nothing you suggest will make anything about this experience better. I am done responding to you now. Have a nice day. |
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Let the man have his joy; he earned it. rabbit |
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