Cancelled Dish!

[bluefull]

I'm going OTA only. I have a an SiliconDust HomeRun Dual on its way.

Can someone please advise on a good rooftop antenna for the the following TVFool report:

Report (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9900358b659e0e)

Looks like I can get most channels pointing North-West. There is a channel I'd really like to be able to pull in, Channel 21, which is pointing East though, well in the other direction. I like the CreateTV (http://www.createtv.com/Schedule) channel, lots of how-to, DIY and cooking programs. Would I be able to pull 21 somehow?

[GroundUrMast]

I'm a fan of Create Channel also. Order a second HDHR. use it to terminate a second antenna aimed at CH-21. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=820

As far as what type of antenna to suggest, are you going to be aiming into nearby buildings or trees?

[bluefull]

I apologize for not responding sooner!

Thank you for your reply. I just packed up the Dish receiver today and also received my HomeRun Dual. On my three story building, there is an antenna on the roof turns out. A little beat up, looks something like this. (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3767303)

Using a compass I pointed the back of the antenna towards 76 degrees True North, where Channel 21 is on the TVFool Report (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9900358b659e0e). No buildings in the way though the tips of a two of lone trees are at about the same height about five street blocks away and in that direction. Unfortunately the HomeRun Dual isn't able to pull in Channel 21. I really love the channel and would like to be able to pull it in. A new antenna in order? Recommendation?

[teleview]

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

The front of a antenna is aimed at the Tv stations.

Aim the antenna at about 310 degree magnetic compass.

Also the antenna has been exposed to the weather for a long time. If you intended to try and use the beat up antenna.

Replace the matching transformer (balun) with a NEW matching transformer (balun).

Replace the coax with NEW RG-6 coax.

Check all other coax connections and hardware.


If you will like to bypass the issues that will be with the old beat up equipment.


Then install a Winegard HD7000R antenna aimed at about 310 degree magnetic compass.


Also replace the old coax with NEW RG-6 coax and coax coupling hardware like ground blocks and splitters and etc.

And speaking of splitters , How many Tv's are/will be connected??

[teleview]

The Tv/s Must Channel Scan for the Digital Broadcast Tv Channels sometimes named the 'Air Channels' or 'Antenna Channels' in the Tv setup menu because the Tv transmissions travel through the air from the transmitting antenna to the receiving antenna.

DO NOT channel scan for cable tv channels.

[teleview]

How many Tv's did you say are/will be connected??


The HD7000R antenna is not a very directional antenna , the antenna does receive the best at the front of the antenna , however will also receive at angles to the Tv antenna.

With the HD7000R aimed at about 310 degree magnetic compass that will put WLIW-DT 21 PBS , at about 89 degree magnetic compass , reception angle to the HD7000R.
I am thinking that WLIW will be received Ok.

[bluefull]

Thank you teleview for your advice.

I used that very site to make sure which direction to point the antenna: http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html

By beat up I mean a few of the metal elements (wider ones, back of the 'All Band UHF-VHF-FM' antenna) have broken off. As is though, it seems to be more robust than the HD7000R. It has 8 pairs of the wide elements, 10 elements on the 'V-part' and 13 elements at the front.

All the major channels come in fine (310 Magnetic), even with the antenna pointing towards Channel 21 (89 magnetic). I just would like to be able to pull in that Channel, 21, especially.

Would I require a stronger antenna than the HD7000R? Channel 21 is 25 miles away and in the yellow band of the TVFool Report. The antenna is shared by the building, each with a single TV in their households. I have only one TV I will be using.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8991/radarall.jpg

[teleview]

The Tv transmissions are VERY STRONG , As In --> VERY STRONG , at your location.

Does the antenna you have now have Any Type or Kind of amplifier , If so remove ALL parts and pieces of the amplifier.

The Tv transmissions are So Strong that a amplifier will be over loaded and Be The Cause bad reception or no reception.

The transmissions are SO Strong that I am recommending a much smaller All band antenna , the HD7000R.

Your location has easy to receive Tv stations channels in All 3 Tv bands.

VHF low band channels 2 thru 6 .

VHF high band channels 7 thru 13.

UHF band channels 14 thru 51.

Hense the All band HD7000R antenna.

And are you saying that WLIW-DT Real channel 21 , Virtual channel (21.1) , PBS Is Not received with the antenna you have now even with the antenna aimed at WLIW at about 89 degree magnetic compass .
The signal strength of WLIW is , 29.6 NM (dB) , and that is not a weak signal.

I am doing my best to have reception with one antenna.

If one were to add a second antenna that the purpose of the antenna is to receive WLIW , then install a Winegard HD9022P UHF antenna.

The second antenna can not be combined with the other antenna no matter if the other antenna is the antenna that is in place now or the HD7000R.

The HD9022P antenna will have a separate coax.


http://www.solidsignal.com ,http://www.winegarddirect.com , http://www.amazon.com.

[teleview]

Also it is a good idea to not use any of satellite hardware such , as diplexers , splitters , power supplies , and etc.

[bluefull]

The Tv transmissions are VERY STRONG , As In --> VERY STRONG , at your location.

Does the antenna you have now have Any Type or Kind of amplifier , If so remove ALL parts and pieces of the amplifier.

There is no amplifier being used and each household has a separate balun connected to the antenna with no splitters being used. Balun to coax to my SiliconDust HomeRun Dual.

And are you saying that WLIW-DT Real channel 21 , Virtual channel (21.1) , PBS Is Not received with the antenna you have now even with the antenna aimed at WLIW at about 89 degree magnetic compass .
The signal strength of WLIW is , 29.6 NM (dB) , and that is not a weak signal.

Exactly, WLIW-DT, Channel 21 is not being received with the antenna aimed at 89 degrees magnetic compass it seems. Does this likely mean the antenna needs replacement?

I am doing my best to have reception with one antenna.

If one were to add a second antenna that the purpose of the antenna is to receive WLIW , then install a Winegard HD9022P UHF antenna.

The second antenna can not be combined with the other antenna no matter if the other antenna is the antenna that is in place now or the HD7000R.

The HD9022P antenna will have a separate coax.


http://www.solidsignal.com ,http://www.winegarddirect.com , http://www.amazon.com.

I was hoping to stick with one antenna seeing as the signals are very strong even when I'm aiming at 21. Would the HD7000R be a good replacement which I can aim towards 21 (89 degrees magnetic north) and still get the bulk of the very strong signals (310 degrees magnetic north)? No problem connecting three baluns to each household via separate runs of coax to it?

I could add a separate antenna for 21 but then I'd have to buy another HD HomeRun Dual as well.

Thank you for the other suggestions and links, going to link them all up.

[GroundUrMast]

Do you have the HDHomeRun with two F connectors? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SiliconDust_HDHR_Rear.jpeg

Or the single input HDHR3-US? http://www.silicondust.com/products/models/hdhr3-us/

Are you familiar with the "HDHomeRunConfig (GUI)" aka: "C:\Program Files\Silicondust\HDHomeRun\hdhomerun_config_gui.exe" ? (on my XP box)

If so, are you seeing any indication of Signal or Symbol Quality greater than 0% when tuned to CH-21?

Here's a screen shot of it running on my 'Desktop':

[teleview]

A way - Prove - reception or no reception is to connect the antenna and coax Directly to a Tv with a Digital Broadcast Tv Tuner.

By pass All of the HD Homerun and computer.

You say that there are - multipul baluns - connected to the antenna terminals and multipul coaxes go to Tv locations??

Are the other - households - receiving WLIW??

[bluefull]

Or the single input HDHR3-US? http://www.silicondust.com/products/models/hdhr3-us/

Are you familiar with the "HDHomeRunConfig (GUI)" aka: "C:\Program Files\Silicondust\HDHomeRun\hdhomerun_config_gui.exe" ? (on my XP box)

If so, are you seeing any indication of Signal or Symbol Quality greater than 0% when tuned to CH-21?

I have the single input version. I took a screen shot and the Signal Strength oscillates between 60-70% and the Signal & Symbol Quality remain at 0%:
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/1704/hdhomerunconfig.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/593/hdhomerunconfig.jpg/)

I'm guessing this is not so good.

[bluefull]

A way - Prove - reception or no reception is to connect the antenna and coax Directly to a Tv with a Digital Broadcast Tv Tuner.

By pass All of the HD Homerun and computer.

You say that there are - multipul baluns - connected to the antenna terminals and multipul coaxes go to Tv locations??

Are the other - households - receiving WLIW??

I use to own a Samsung DTBH260F HDTV Set-Top Box (http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-DTBH260F-HDTV-Terrestrial-Receiver/dp/B000JV6TQY). My TV doesn't have an ATSC tuner.

When I did have my Samsung connected, I use to be able to pull in Channel 21 and sub-channel 21.2 which is the CreateTV channel. However, it was choppy and I could never watch a program straight through without drop-outs occurring.

[GroundUrMast]

IMPORTANT QUESTION: When aiming at WLIW, real CH-21, are there buildings, air conditioners or trees in the path?

From what you have shown us, I'm confident your HDHR is a valuable diagnostic tool, which you know how to use. I'm not as inclined to ask you to use another tuner to test. I have yet to find a better signal meter in a consumer grade TV, STB or competing network attached tuner.

IMPORTANT POINT: To focus on Teleview's question, only one balun (matching transformer) should be connected to the antenna terminals. Connecting multiple baluns to the antenna will result in severe impedance mismatch and signal reflections in the coax, all of which reduce signal strength and quality.

To feed three separate households you should use a balanced 3-way splitter (http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/3-Way-DC-Pass-Splitter-SPT3.html) if the cable runs are roughly equal in length. If one of the cable runs is significantly longer, use a typical 3-way splitter (http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Wire-Connectors-Adapters-Splitters/Ideal/h_d1/N-bmm7Z5yc1vZrz/R-202276260/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051) which has low loss on one of the three ports, which would be used to feed the longest coax run. If you're not sure which splitter type is best, tell us how long the coax runs are, and, how many TV's are in each household (ooops, I see you've already indicated 1 TV per household... Thanks).

The many strong signals present, argue against using an amplifier. But each household may opt to use a DA (distribution amplifier) if adding many sets.

[bluefull]

To focus on Teleview's question, only one balun (matching transformer) should be connected to the antenna terminals.

To feed three separate households you should use a balanced 3-way splitter (http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/3-Way-DC-Pass-Splitter-SPT3.html) if the cable runs are roughly equal in length. If one of the cable runs is significantly longer, use a typical 3-way splitter (http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Wire-Connectors-Adapters-Splitters/Ideal/h_d1/N-bmm7Z5yc1vZrz/R-202276260/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051) which has low loss on one of the three ports, which would be used to feed the longest coax run.

Ah, so only one balun should be connected to the antenna. How far from the balun can or should the splitter be? How to waterproof the coax connections? I know for the balun there are weather boots/sleeves.

The cable runs are on three separate floors so my run would probably be the longest (1st floor of a 3-story building). I would connect my coax to the 'power pass' port then.

I was considering just buying a separate, smaller antenna just for myself and attach it to the same mast but just underneath the larger antenna. Specifically the Winegard HD7694P (http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=HD7694P&d=Winegard-HD-7694P-High-Definition-VHFUHF-HDHD769-Series-Antenna-%28HD7694P%29&post=) that teleview mentioned.

[GroundUrMast]

The splitter can be mounted were it's convenient. At the antenna or on the third floor, with 'drops' heading down to the lower floors... What's convenient in you lay out?

The Ideal brand http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Wire-Connectors-Adapters-Splitters/Ideal/h_d1/N-bmm7Z5yc1vZrz/R-202276260/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051 splitter looks like the best option for you. Connect you long run of cable to the 4 dB loss port.

I prefer the HD7000 or it's big brother and sister the HD7010 or 7015. The HD7694P is a great antenna but it lacks support of real CH-2 through 6.

Depending on the obstructions looking toward WLIW, you may need a large UHF only antenna dedicated to that signal... that would call for a second HDHR.

[teleview]

My posts recommend the HD7000R antenna not the HD7694P antenna.

Here are High Quality splitters.

http://www.hollandelectronics.com , also available at , http://www.solidsignal.com.

HFS-2D , 2 way splitter.

HFS-3D , 3 way splitter.

HFS-4D , 4 way splitter.

Who knows what other devices are connected to the other coaxes through out the building.

The devices might be putting AC or DC power in to the coax system.

The holland splitters will prevent power back feeding.

Another way to do it is use a Non power passing splitter.

Many people think that the way to get better reception on a cobbled together multipul outlet coax system is to use amplifiers and etc.

This makes the problems worse , so people think , get a more powerful amplifier , and the problems get worse and then the people add filters and signal helpers and connect another antenna to the coax system inside their apartment , etc. , etc , etc .

The best and correct way is correct system problems.


So why am I providing all this information and more??

These key words that bluefull said , I am thinking of getting a small antenna and running a coax down just for my self.

[GroundUrMast]

Sealing connections is (IMO) best done using Coax-Seal or Scotch 2228. They are self vulcanizing rubber tape products that are specifically designed for permanent weather proofing. Amazon is a source, Home Depot stocks the Scotch 2228 in the electrical department alongside ordinary electrical tape.

I seal with 2228 and then over-wrap for dirt and UV protection using a good grade of common electrical tape. Electrical tape alone will not seal permanently.

You can also use weather tight electrical junction boxes if you like, but the cost and convenience factors favor the sealing tape solution.

[teleview]

Many people do not know what a DA is and will show up at the County Court House looking for the DA.

And when they find out what a DA is they will most likely by the one with Highest Gain.

The scotch self vulcanizing live rubber tape works so well and seals so well that only way get it off of what it is applied to is , cut it off.

[bluefull]

Alright, I've ordered the splitter and a new Channel Master balun transformer and some coax seal tape.

Will report back when everything arrives and is tested.

[bluefull]

Just wanted to report back. I replaced the three separate baluns with a single Channel Master one and connected a Holland balanced 3-way splitter to it.

After looking at the SiliconDust Config afterwards, Channel 21's Signal and Symbol Quality remained at 0% and the Signal Strength actually dropped to 50%.

I guess that means a splitter with a low loss output would be a good idea but also that I probably need to get a separate UHF directional antenna in order to pull in Channel 21.

But would a separate UHF antenna do anything if the tops of some trees are in the way of Channel 21 and are the ultimate cause of the problem?

It would be a shame because I really only want two channels, PBS and that CreateTV channel. I don't really watch any of the other channels.

[GroundUrMast]

Was the antenna aimed at WLIW?

How dense are the trees? Can you post a photo?

I would point long-boom Yagi at WLIW.
Options in order of preference:
Antennas Direct 91XG
Winegard HD9095P
Antennacraft MXU59
Channel Master CM-3023
Antennas Direct 42XG
Winegard HD9075P
Antennacraft MXU47
Channel Master CM-3022


The longer versions are preferred for their ability to reject multipath and reduce or eliminate the need for a preamplifier.

[teleview]

Is PBS received when a known to be good Digital Tv is connected.

And the silconedust and computer and etc. is not connected??

Barrow a Digital Tv that has a digital tuner.

[GroundUrMast]

If the HDHR is receiving other signals you have it set up correctly. My personal experience is, it's a solid dependable product.

If you want to see WLIW, and you want to use the HDHR as your primary tuner, you'll want to overcome the modest signal level and vegetation induced attenuation. My opinion is, one of the antennas listed in post #23 will easily take care of both issues.

But, teleview is offering a reasonable trouble shooting step.

[bluefull]

teleview, it would be difficult to borrow a TV but I can get my hands on my old Samsung set top box next week. The one I use to be able to pull Channel 21 with albeit not too well.

The antenna is still aimed at WLIW 21, I've left it that way since the change of direction caused no problems with the very strong VHF signals.

However, in addition to the drop in Signal Strength noted by the SiliconDust Config for Channel 21 post-balun and splitter change, I also noticed that Channel 5 now has occasional hiccups. Channel 5 was previously fine even with the antenna aimed at WLIW 21.

I considering the long-boom yagi if it can get past those trees. I will take a picture and post it. GroundURMast is there one on the list you provided that can be aimed primarily at WLIW 21 (UHF) but will also be able to pull in PBS 13 (VHF) from the other direction since PBS is only 5 miles away and the signal seems strong enough? That way I can save the cost of the additional tuner.

Thank you both for your help in troubleshooting this.