Confused by so many options - please help clarify

[redtiger]

This is my TVFool link:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9900946a5ab1d8

I was pretty sure I wanted to use an omnidirectional antenna so I wouldn't have to deal with a rotor or multiple antennas. I'd settled on the Winegard MS 2002 until I started reading in this forum and now I'm just confused about what my best option is.

I would truly appreciate some help in understanding how to best get tv reception at my location.

Thank you.

[Billiam]

Do you want to receive WFVX, the Fox affiliates channel? Or do they still get carried on a sub channel of one of the other Bangor stations?

[signals unlimited]

The omni will not be enough antenna to do the channels out of your main group of stations.

Use an Antennas Direct CS2 Complete aimed to around 40 degrees magnetic, It will receive the group of channels to your Northeast including real channel 2, since it is a strong signal, and the High VHF real 7 and 13 at 2 degrees magnetic. Real channel 10 should also be received from the Southwest, but Fox 23 will not be received.


With one antenna and no rotor as requested, that is as good as it can be.

[Electron]

Your location has receivable Tv stations/channels in ALL 3 Tv bands , VHF low band channels 2 thru 6 , VHF high band channels 7 thru 13 and UHF band channels 14 thru 51.

Install a Antenna Craft CS600 , VHF channels 2 thru 13 antenna , aimed at about 45 degree magnetic compass.

And install a Antennas Direct DB4e , UHF channels 14 thru 51 , antenna aimed at about 74 degree magnetic compass.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

Connect the CS600 and DB4e together with a UVSJ = UHF/VHF/Separator/Joiner , Combiner , in a weather protected plastic housing sold by Antennas Direct.

Connect a Antennas Direct PA-18 preamp to the output of the UVSJ.

For one Tv connected use no splitter.

For more then one Tv connected use Holland Electronics Splitters , http://www.hollandelectronics.com , also available at , http://www.solidsignal.com.

For 2 Tv's connected use a HFS-2D , 2 way splitter.

For 3 Tv's connected use a HFS-3D , 3 way splitter.

For 4 Tv's connected use a HFS-4D , 4 way splitter.

The tvfool radar plot is showing the antenna height at 30 feet , how will the antenna be mounted at 30 feet??


Here are some antenna mounts , http://www.ronard.com/909911.html , http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html , http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html , http://www.ronard.com/Tripods%200703/4712.html.
Buy the ronard antenna mounts at solidsignal by typing the word ronard in the solidsignal search box.

http://www.palcoelectronics.com/pe300.aspx.

Here are some places to buy antennas and etc. , http://www.solidsignal.com (http://www.solidsignal.com) , http://www.antennacraft.net , http://www.antennasdirect.com , http://www.amazon.com.

[Electron]

The Tv/s Must scan for the Broadcast Tv Channels sometimes named the 'Air Channel' or 'Antenna Channels in the Tv setup menu because the Tv transmissions travel through the air from the transmitting antenna to the receiving antenna.

DO NOT scan for cable tv channels.

I STRONGLY Recommend 2 Tv antennas.

[Billiam]

If you only want to use one antenna this is going to be a challenging situation since you have some pretty strong signals in green and one weak signal on UHF. I just checked and WFVX TV is still piggybacked on WVII's sub channel. That being the case, you could get by with just the Antennacraft CS 600 pointed at 58 degrees and still likely obtain WMEB and WABI off the side since both signals are quite strong and only ten miles away. The only drawback to this is that potential for multipath exists. I am familiar with the topography of the Bangor area and the hills and trees could present an issue for WMEB and WABI. No pre amp will be needed.

[signals unlimited]

This is my TVFool link:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9900946a5ab1d8

I was pretty sure I wanted to use an omnidirectional antenna so I wouldn't have to deal with a rotor or multiple antennas. I'd settled on the Winegard MS 2002 until I started reading in this forum and now I'm just confused about what my best option is.

I would truly appreciate some help in understanding how to best get tv reception at my location.

Thank you.

My recommendation is based on the request for a single antenna solution and should work quite well, provided Fox 23 is not needed.

[redtiger]

@ Billiam: The FOX channel is carried as a sub channel on WVII (7) Bangor so I don't really need WFVX. But, out of curiosity, I'd be interested in knowing what I'd have to do to get it.

@ signals unlimited: Thanks for your analysis and diagnosis. I'll check into the equipment you mentioned. Again, that curiosity thing: would I gain anything by utilizing two antennas? Having read a few of the threads in this forum I guess the multiple antenna thing wouldn't be too bad if I'd get more stations or just have an easier time tuning in what I can get.

Thanks so much for the input. Less than an hour after I posted the thread I had responses. Awesome.

[Electron]

I STRONGLY Recommend 2 Tv antennas.

Here are the Tv stations/channels that will be received.

Digital Tv stations/channels:

WMEB-DT Real channel 9 Virtual channel (12.1) PBS.
WMEB-TV channel 25 Virtual channel (25.1) PBS.

WABI-TV Real channel 13 Virtual channel (5.1) CBS and The CW.

WLBZ Real channel 2 Virtual channel (2.1) NBC and Local Weather.

WVII-DT Real channel 7 Virtual channel (7.1) ABC and FOX and My Network.

WFVX-LP Real channel 22 Virtual channel (22.1) FOX and My Network.


And also 2 Analog Tv stations/channels:

WCKD-LP Real channel 30 TBN Trinity Broadcasting Network.

W31CX Real channel 31 EICBN Excellence In Chirstain Broadcasting

[redtiger]

@ Electron: I will certainly consider your suggestions as well. Thanks. The antenna height breaks down like this: ground level to my roof peak is 25 feet; I have a 3 foot tripod roof mount containing an 8 foot mast. I just rounded that situation to 30 feet.

Generally speaking, lots of trees and hilly terrain. We aren't the lowest point in the area but we're pretty close to it. Neighbors are slightly higher and have much better reception (tv and wireless internet). WABI has always been our strongest signal.

[Electron]

Very good , I suggested some other antenna mounts if required.

The CS600 is aimed in between the VHF Tv stations to receive , WMEB-DT channel 9 , WABI-TV channel 13 and WLBZ channel 2 , WMBE-TV channel 7.

NO antenna rotor is required.

[Electron]

WCKD-LP channel 30 at +5.1NM(dB) signal strength.
And W31CX channel 31 at minus -3.2 signal strength are both Very Weak Tv station/channels.

Also WMEB-TV channel 25 at +9.2NM(dB) signal strength and WFVX-LP at +8.4NM(dB) signal strength are Weak Tv stations/channels.

Use the DB4e antenna aimed at the all the UHF Tv stations to receive them at about 74 degrees magnetic compass.

[Billiam]

WMEB TV 25 is a repeater of the VHF station. It is used to shore up the weak signal areas of the VHF signal. Since he is right on top of the VHF station, no need to obtain this one. The two translators programming may not interest him.

Redtiger. The best way to obtain the WFVX TV 22 or WMEB TV 25 would be to use the following antenna pointed at 58 degrees. The wider reflector has superior gain for channels below 30. I own one of these and tested it directly against the Antennas Direct 91XG and Antennacraft MXU 59. The Channel Master 3023 (carbon copy of the old CM 4248) is the best Yagi for the lower UHF channels. You may not even need a pre amp if you use this antenna for TV 22 or TV 25.

http://www.summitsource.com/channel-master-3023-uhf-hd-tv-antenna-outdoor-60-mile-long-range-directional-roof-top-hdtv-corner-reflector-cm3023-28-element-fringe-suburban-offair-local-tv-signal-television-aerial-red-zone-part-cm3023-with-50-ft-coax-cable-p-6678.html

[Electron]

WMEB-TV 25 will be received any way.

And that preamp is required if connecting more then one Tv.

[Billiam]

No mention was made by the OP about the intent to connect more than one TV to this system. But yes, a pre amp would be required if he does decide to use more than one TV.

[Electron]

The CM4248 and CM3020 are not the same.

http://www.affordablehdtv.com/channel-master-cm4228-uhf-diamod-yagi-hdtv-antenna-p-6464.html.

The CM3020 is - way far too directional - for your Widely spaced Tv stations.

http://www.amazon.com/PCT-International-CM3020-Channel-Television/dp/B000BSGCSA.

[Billiam]

The CM4248 and CM3020 are not the same.

http://www.affordablehdtv.com/channel-master-cm4228-uhf-diamod-yagi-hdtv-antenna-p-6464.html.

The CM3020 is - way far too directional - for your Widely spaced Tv stations.

http://www.amazon.com/PCT-International-CM3020-Channel-Television/dp/B000BSGCSA.

Actually they are the same antenna.

http://www.summitsource.com/channel-master-4248-uhf-diamond-hd-tv-antenna-quantum-outdoor-roof-top-hdtv-corner-reflector-cm4248-28-element-suburban-offair-local-tv-signal-television-aerial-red-zone-part-cm4248-with-50-ft-coax-cable-p-6679.html

Channel Master simply renamed the antenna for some reason around 2001. Yes, it is no longer in production but Summit Source still has several in stock. It's the best low channel UHF antenna I've tried outside of the 4251 7 foot parabolic dish.

[Billiam]

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4248.html

[GroundUrMast]

The CM4248 and CM3020 are not the same.

http://www.affordablehdtv.com/channel-master-cm4228-uhf-diamod-yagi-hdtv-antenna-p-6464.html.

The CM3020 is - way far too directional - for your Widely spaced Tv stations.

http://www.amazon.com/PCT-International-CM3020-Channel-Television/dp/B000BSGCSA.

True, but the CM-3020 was not mentioned... the discontinued 3023 was.

I have to double check numbers to be sure I don't jumble them up.

[Electron]

I turned some numbers around.

Here is the CM3023 , http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Masterpiece_Digital_HDTV_Antenna_p/CM-3023.htm

The CM4248 and CM3023 are the same in that they are both UHF antennas.

My recommendation still stands. The CS600 and DB4e.

[redtiger]

@ Billiam: just to clarify things for me, are you suggesting replacing the DB4e with a CM 3023 or are you suggesting introducing a third antenna into the mix? Wouldn't the DB4e pick up those 2 stations as well? The CM 3023 does it better?

In general, I'll just mention that there are hook ups for tv's wired into 5 rooms but only 3 tv's are hooked up (and only 2 really being used). I can unhook unused rooms if that would be better. Irregardless, you all seem to be saying more than one tv demands the use of a preamp.

If I choose not to worry about 4, 10. & 23 and only concentrate on the two main groupings, would the CS 2 Complete recommended early on by "signals unlimited" do the whole job for me? Seems to me it has it all (lo & hi VHF & UHF). Or is there an inherent value to utilizing two antennas in situations like this?

I look forward to anymore input and I'll then make my decisions. I'll post back to share the results and say "thanks". I appreciate everyone's help.

[Electron]

Every time a split takes place the signal strength of the antenna system coaxes is reduced.

If one Tv is connected use no splitter.

If 2 Tv's are connected use a 2 way splitter.
If 3 Tv,s are connected use a 3 way splitter.
If 4 Tv,s are connected use a 4 way splitter.

The CS600 has a wide reception angle for the widely spaced directions of the VHF tv stations.

The DB4e is aimed at the UHF stations.



The CS2 Complete is designed for VHF high band 7 thru 13 and UHF band 14 thru 51.
Not the VHF low band 2 thru 6.



The CS600 from Antenna Craft is designed to receive channels 2 thru 13.
The DB4e from Antennas Direct is designed to receive channels 14 thru 51.

Your location has receivable channels in all 3 Tv bands.

VHF low band channels 2 thru 6 , VHF high band channels 7 thru 13 , UHF band 14 thru 51.

[Billiam]

I turned some numbers around.

Here is the CM3023 , http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Masterpiece_Digital_HDTV_Antenna_p/CM-3023.htm

The CM4248 and CM3023 are the same in that they are both UHF antennas.

My recommendation still stands. The CS600 and DB4e.

You mean transposed numbers.

The link to the Channel Master Store is for a new model of the CM 3023. It is NOT the same antenna as the link I gave to the antenna sold by Summit Source. The Original CM 3023 WAS an updated version of the CM 4248 Yagi which was renamed and slightly altered from the original CM 4248.

Did you bother to look at any of the links I posted regarding the original CM 4248 and original CM 3023?

[Billiam]

@ Billiam: just to clarify things for me, are you suggesting replacing the DB4e with a CM 3023 or are you suggesting introducing a third antenna into the mix? Wouldn't the DB4e pick up those 2 stations as well? The CM 3023 does it better?

In general, I'll just mention that there are hook ups for tv's wired into 5 rooms but only 3 tv's are hooked up (and only 2 really being used). I can unhook unused rooms if that would be better. Irregardless, you all seem to be saying more than one tv demands the use of a preamp.

If I choose not to worry about 4, 10. & 23 and only concentrate on the two main groupings, would the CS 2 Complete recommended early on by "signals unlimited" do the whole job for me? Seems to me it has it all (lo & hi VHF & UHF). Or is there an inherent value to utilizing two antennas in situations like this?

I look forward to anymore input and I'll then make my decisions. I'll post back to share the results and say "thanks". I appreciate everyone's help.

I'd only recommend the CM 3023 sold at Summit Source and the original version of it (Do NOT purchase the new edition of it now being marketed by Channel Master). It is essentially the old CM 4248 Yagi which had a great reputation for UHF reception on the low UHF channels. You would only need this antenna if you want to pick up Ch. 22 or 25 or the low power stations on UHF. Otherwise you can get by with just the CS 600 antenna and won't likely need a pre amp. That will get you Ch. 2, 5, 7, 12 and then 22 because it is a sub channel of WVII TV. The CM 3023 costs around $30.00 at Summit Source. The DB4e costs twice as much. In my opinion the CM 3023 is a known commodity with a proven track record on UHF lo frequencies. The new DB4e is an unproven antenna that costs quite a bit more money.

[GroundUrMast]

To be fair...

The new DB4e is an unproven antenna that costs quite a bit more money.
I have yet to buy a spectrum analyzer and DB4e... but I've yet to have my confidence shaken in the documentation provided by the manufacturer.

Amazon currently offers the DB4e for $50 + free shipping. http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-DB4E-Antenna/dp/B0074H3IU6/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1341799418&sr=1-1&keywords=db4e

[Billiam]

To be fair...


I have yet to buy a spectrum analyzer and DB4e... but I've yet to have my confidence shaken in the documentation provided by the manufacturer.

Amazon currently offers the DB4e for $50 + free shipping. http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-DB4E-Antenna/dp/B0074H3IU6/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1341799418&sr=1-1&keywords=db4e

I have to wonder how well it will do in a multipath prone environment. That part of Maine has a lot of hills and tall pine trees and other large deciduous trees that are going to impact the signals. I have that same problem in my current location. 4 by and 8 bay antennas don't work well here but the Yagi's do. I suspect that he'll get better results with a Yagi for UHF, if he decides to go after the UHF signals in the area.

[GroundUrMast]

@Billiam, Point well made.

[redtiger]

A week ago I posted this tvfool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9900946a5ab1d8

That night I ordered the CS 600 and CM 3023. The 600 arrived Wednesday but was badly bent. Another is supposedly on the way.

The 3023 arrived Thursday afternoon. I assembled it and mounted it on my roof mount. I was unable to locate any UHF signals but did receive 9 & 13 at 60% signal strength.

The next afternoon I spent a couple hours trying again. I used a compass with no luck and I tried several trial and error attempts. Again, 9 & 13 are all that I can locate. Interestingly, the signal strength is 60% whether I aim directly at the transmitters or directly away from them (which is where I had it last night). So, SNAFU Rules!!!

At this point I'm hoping the CS 600 arrives tomorrow and will indeed get me the VHF stations. If so, then great. But I have to say that my optimism is waning fast!

[Billiam]

You will need a pre amp to get the UHF signals in red on your report. If you were in an open area with few or no trees or hills then you'd probably see a signal from CH. 22.

Since the UHF signals in your area would be considered fringe, I'd recommend that you purchase a http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=SAP4800&d=Winegard-AP-4800-Chromstar-2000-Series-UHF-Pre-Amplifier-(AP4800)&sku=615798100155

I can't get my weakest UHF signals either with this antenna which are essentially as weak as Ch. 22 or weaker. But when I use this pre amp I am able to get my Ch. 15 at a reasonably good signal strength.

Just found this:

http://www.radioshack.com/helpdesk/index.jsp?display=returns&subdisplay=guarantee

Try one of the Antennacraft pre amps from RS first. If that does not work then you can return it for a full refund. The following should work for your situation.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3506954&filterName=Type&filterValue=Amplifiers

[redtiger]

Billiam,

Thanks for the research and links. I'll most likely end up trying a preamp just so I can say I covered all the bases. I do think I'll wait a few days until I get the other antenna and see how the VHF side of this experiment goes. At that point I should know if I need to shop for anything else to make this work.

Again, thank you.

[redtiger]

The CS 600 VHF antenna arrived about 6PM last night. Removed the 3023 from my roof mount and replaced it with the CS 600. I guessed at a compromise position and climbed down to see what, if anything, was being received. I was getting what I know as 5 & 12 (which were scanned in w/the other antenna). I ran the set up program for my converter again and was extremely pleased as I watched it establish service for 2, 5, 7, & 12. Admittedly, this doesn't seem like much but it's pretty much the whole ballgame around here.

After supper my wife and I tried to fine tune things. I climbed the ladder and she monitored the strength signals on the tv and I talked w/her via cell phone. Long story short, 2 is in the "center" & is strongest (roughly 90%); 7 is a 60 - 64% signal on the far right; and 5 & 12 are @ 60 - 64% on the far left. We were able to get 5 & 12 at 88% but lost 7 (2 was still great). We were able to get 2 & 7 @80 - 90% but 5 & 12 degraded to the 50% range which is really unwatchable. I'd like to supply compass readings but I'd returned the one I borrowed (I actually don't have one of my own).

So that's where we're at. If you folks will indulge me just a little while longer, I'd like to ask about pre-amps. Would my situation be helped if I employed one? Would it increase my signal strengths on the right and left? If so, in doing that, will it boost the 90% channel 2 signal too much? Additionally, I'm curious about something called a "distribution amplifier". I have a Radio Shack unit that receives the input antenna coax and has 4 output posts. There isn't much info on the thing but it is stamped "Distribution Amplifer". Same as a pre-amp? We're not using it right now - I suppose I should just find it and hook it up and plug it in and see if the signal strengths improve.

I'll just end here saying how very pleased I am. This CS 600 was $17.99 (with shipping still less than $25!) and our tv reception is the best we've ever had (the 60% signal strengths are, for the most part, very watchable. There seems to be a point where things degrade but @ 60 - 64% it's generally OK). Your forum and your suggestions have been immensely helpful. It's quite a service you guys provide. Thank you.

[Billiam]

If you can mount the antenna a little higher that is likely to help. Don't recommend a pre amp here because the VHF signals are quite strong. The only other option is to use a rotor or setup a 2nd CS 600 and point it in another direction and the combine it with the existing antenna to run a single cable to the TV.

[GroundUrMast]

I agree, mounting height is the single most important factor.

If the CM3023 is returnable, the Antennas Direct 91XG would be my choice for receiving WMEB and WFVX.

Re. preamps, their prime function is to overcome losses in the cable and splitters that are connected to the output. No amplifier can 'pull' more signal out of the air or improve the performance of the antenna.

[redtiger]

You guys are awesome. Thanks so much for the replies. I currently have my internet antenna at the top of the mast but I could drop it lower and gain slightly over 3 feet for the CS 600. Would that be significant enough of a change to get improvement? A second CS 600 is also a real option I guess. Would it require a special combiner or would I be able to get by with turning around one of the splitters I already have (originally had antenna coming to splitter and then used two outputs to two other splitters; those outputs went to 4 or 5 rooms. Replaced all that with the "distribution amplifier" I mentioned earlier but still have all the splitters - inexpensive ones from Radio Shack.).

Regarding the CM3023, I briefly looked at the "fine print" and, between return shipping and restocking fees, I don't think it's worth sending it back. I'll either keep experimenting with it, find someone who can use it, or just add it to my collection of "things". One good thing is that I think I can disassemble it and fold all the elements back in, making it much easier to store.

[GroundUrMast]

A second CS600 would not be my choice. The CS600 is designed to receive real channels 2 through 13. It's has no intentional ability to receive UHF.

If you're going to keep the CM3023, try 'hunting' for a 'sweet spot' at various locations, high and low. The design of the CM3023 makes it a capable antenna when you're seeking real channels 14 and higher.

UHF can be interesting, moving an antenna up or down less than a foot can make significant changes in reception.

[redtiger]

I think the second CS 600 was a solution for my limited signal strength. If raising the present one doesn't improve my signal strengths then I thought I was being told to use a second one to improve reception from the outlying towers. With the antenna I have (600) I can get great 2, 5, 12 but no 7. Or I can get excellent 2 & 7 but poor to unwatchable 5 & 12. With two CS 600's I could get great 2 & 7 with one and great 5 & 12 with the other. Combine these into one line and my VHF reception would be super.

WFVX is, I believe, a FOX affiliate. VHF 7 broadcasts 2 signals, one of which is FOX. I'm happy with the VHF stations but would like all that I receive to have solid signals. That's what I thought the suggestion for two CS 600's would accomplish.

At this point, UHF stations and the 3023 will be for fun and experimenting at a later time!

[GroundUrMast]

Ahhhh... I'm with you now.

You can try that. One aimed at 002° and the other at 074°. Using a reversed splitter may or may not work. The splitter is cheap and readily available.

If you have trouble with multipath or interaction between the two antennas, you would still have the option to contact tinlee.com who may be able to supply you with a passive tuned antenna combiner. Their AC-7 product comes to mind.