Toledo OH reception & Channel Master 7777/7778 preamp question

[Blackbeen]

I'm considering purchasing one of these preamps for use with my Antennas Direct DB4e:http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/DB4e.html
J-mounted outside a 3rd story window on a north side brick wall about 25-30' off the ground.
I'm in the 43606 area, my cable run is 31' to one HDTV. I do have a stations within 20 miles but experience severe break up on most of these local Toledo channels & since there are strong FM stations almost in direct line with them I'm hoping the FM filter might improve this issue. Also I'd like to improve reception with the channels 50+ miles away (Detroit), to note contrary to the TV Signal Analysis Ch 7 much of the time comes in as strong if not stronger than local ones. Would the Channel Master 7778 still be preferred? to reach Detroit channels &/or would a preamp even improve my current setup.

TV

http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad169/blackbeen2/Radar-All.png

FM

http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad169/blackbeen2/Radar-FM.png

[signals unlimited]

You don't need the pre-amp to block FM. You can purchase a FM trap for around five bucks from www.solidsignals.com Also FM typically only effects VHF (2-13). Your channel 7 is working fine on your UHF antenna, so unless you are having problems with a real not vurtual VHF, FM is not your problem. If you want to try an amplifier for the stations to your East, try the 7778 amplifier, not the 7777. You may experence overload from the strong signals from nearby local channels.

[Blackbeen]

Channel 11 is VERY problematic & breaks up more than any other Toledo channel this is somewhat understandable as it is High VHF & the antenna UHF but I also have a lot of problems with 24 which is obviously UHF & has slightly more transmitter power to boot, overall this is very frustrating as I would expect local channels to be very solid though I realize these are pretty low power unfortunately.

[signals unlimited]

With 70 degrees between channel 11 and 7, I would try aiming to the exact location of each. Channel 11 at 97 degrees and 7 at 29 degrees magnetic to determine if your problem is FM interferrence, UHF antenna, or dirrection.

If the problem goes away with dirrection changes, You may want to go with another antenna and amplifier set-up.

Let me know.

[Blackbeen]

Actually I stand corrected (and feel a little foolish) the wall the antenna is mounted is not due north, as it tilts east bound
http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad169/blackbeen2/Capture-1.jpg
I have tried different angles but for the most part flat to the building pointing it northeast works best overall, "sometimes" swinging it more east bound will improve 24 but not always, the other channels remain the same with the exception of obviously the Detroit ones, which doesn't make sense to me as most of the Toledo ones I am reaching for are in that same general east bound direction. I've consider another antenna but it seems silly for just a couple channels + the most idea place to mount is on the back wall & though it may not look that way in the picture there are lots of obstructions that I think would hinder reception.

[signals unlimited]

With the large trees in both directions, tuning and locating the antenna is a challenge. Relocating to the other side of the house may or may not improve the reception. If it my installation I would do two things: Mount on your Hip roof, with your "J" pole and install a rotor. This will give you the ability to tune the directions of indivisual stations from a more advantagous location. I would also suggest changing into an RCA ANT 751 antenna.

If you want to use a rotor, the Eagel Aspen Roto 100 will operate thru your RG6 coax.

This will resolve your problems as best you can, taking into consideration your obsticals.

[Electron]

Will be a big help if you will post a live and active tvfool radar plot report.

Not pictures of the reports.

[Blackbeen]

Will be a big help if you will post a live and active tvfool radar plot report.

Not pictures of the reports.

The FM report would not link (I tried 3 times & it just linked to the initial input page NOT the report) so I just decided to post "both" as as pictures rather than just the FM.

[GroundUrMast]

If your goal is to see both the local and Detroit market signals, the ANT-751 is not going to provide a complete solution. The ANT-751 and Winegard HD7000R both come to mind as good solutions to the local reception problems, in either case a passive FM trap is in order. Radio Shack cat. 15-024 is a local option for most folks. I favor the HD7000R given the presence of real CH-5.

Reliable Detroit reception calls for an Antennas Direct 91XG + an Antennacraft Y10713 + FM trap + an Antennas Direct CPA-19 preamp.

If I were in this situation, I'd be considering the installation of two independent antenna systems. One for local and on for distant signals. The DX system would very likely include a rotator but certainly would need to be mounted high, clear of trees.

Regardless, None of your local signals needs to be amplified. The CM-7777 is designed for use in a weak signal environment. It will overload in your application. The CM-7778 may tolerate the strong local signals but is still not an amplifier I would choose as a solution in this case. I suggest the CPA-19 for it's low noise and ability to handle strong signal levels.

[Electron]

For Toledo , Install a Winegard HD7000R antenna , no amplifier , aimed at about 100 degree magnetic compass.
Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

For Detroit , Install the DB4e with a Antennas Direct CPA-19 preamp aimed at about 29 degree magnetic compass.

The HD7000R and the DB4e are 2 Separate antenna systems.

The 2 Separate antenna systems Will Not be connected together on to one coax.

The 2 Separate antenna systems and coaxes of the 2 Separate antenna systems will go to the location of the Tv/s and will be connected to a remote control A/B antenna switch , http://www.radioshack.com #15-1968 , or , http://www.mcmelectronics.com , 32-4425 .

[ADTech]

The FM report would not link (I tried 3 times...)

FMFool doesn't allow a link to be posted (not implemented). You have to copy the picture as you ended up doing.

Unless you actually want WLMB (some folks do), then there's no point in going with an all-channel antenna for Toledo. A small high-VHF/UHF antenna is all that is needed.

The DB4e will receive some high-VHF, but its out-of-design-band reception of 7-13 will be anywhere from 45-70° off boresite. That's why the Fox station from Detroit is coming in with the DB4e aimed to the east. An amplified DB4e aimed directly at Detroit will probably miss the Fox station on channel 7 and you'll need to plan for it separately. A simple way to do that is to re-purpose one of our C2 VHF kits and mount the parts on the DB4e. Forcasted signal strength for that station is low on your chart, but you are picking it up "accidentally" so it may work with the minimal VHF element. A much larger directional high-VHF antenna would provide much improved margin.

The DB4e will receive enough FM via the feedline to cause interference, especially on channels that broadcast on VHF 7-13. You can pick up an FM trap locally at most Radio Shack stores as noted. If you are having reception problems on UHF channels, it's probably due to multi-path. Those trees immediately to the east of your home would be my prime suspects.

Skip the high-gain amplifier in metro/suburban areas - they're an invitation for more problems.

[Blackbeen]

Thanks for all the feedback.
I live in an apartment building so with no practical access to the roof & being limited to the area I can reach outside my window this where I chose to mount:

http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad169/blackbeen2/Front.png

I realize that mounting outside window is discouraged & less than ideal but in this situation those are the limitations I have to work within.
I've considered placing an antenna on the back wall pointing due East for Toledo & dedicating the DB4e to Detroit channels but after mulling it around a lot I think due to blockage (trees, houses & power lines), the mess of running a cable from my bedroom across my kitchen & extra cost it wouldn't be worth it.
I got a FM filter the day of my last post & "so far" I think it may have helped 11, the little time I've watched this week has been stable.

I have found that in this placement these are the most effective pointing positions:

http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad169/blackbeen2/Home.png

It may not look like it from the areal shot but the Toledo position is about clearest path for this location, the Detroit one has a lot more blockage than seen in the picture & for this reason sometimes Detroit come in as good if not better in the Toledo position.

ADTech: WLMB is not a big deal to me & I was speaking of WXYZ-TV 41/7.1
http://www.antennapoint.com/antennas/show?id=Whiteway+Rd+43606&commit=Search
not WXYZ-TV 7/2.1 the latter has not been seen that often for obvious reasons but the former (with 1000.0 kW of power) is very regular even during the day.
I considered the kit but frankly it seemed like a lot to pay for essentially a pair of striped down rabbit ears + with the mount it would largely inhibit the swing range of the antenna & wouldn't allow for the Toledo position. As is I'm hoping the FM Trap has resolved the 11 issue, time will tell.
Right now 24 (NBC) is the major PITA, during late-night (which should generally be prime signal hour) I can hardly watch Leno w/o regular pixelation, in the last couple nights I've taken to toggling between 24 & WDIV-TV 45/4.1 which "sometimes" seems better, given probably to the fact that its the 2nd strongest transmitter in Detroit. I'm seriously considering the CPA-19 in hope I could stabilize WDIV-TV & just give up on 24 if needed. I don't know if this is unreasonable but I'm a 3rd shifter so my viewing hours are more ideal. I would also like to get ION stabilized which is a bit more of a stretch but I've been very impressed with the range of DB4e on good night I've reached as far East as Buffalo NY (the straight shoot across Lake Erie make this possible I'm sure) & as far north as Jackson, I've peaked (though rare) at about 47 channels.

[Blackbeen]

After thinking this over more in the last week I've come to consider the idea of hiring an installer to do (perhaps) a chimney mount of the DB4e with rotor. I have also considered getting another antenna to work in conjunction with it Solid Signal recommended the Winegard HD8200U but it is HUGE (at 8' I think) & think my landlord might flip out seeing that monster up there. It also seems mostly to excel in the 100MI VHF range, being that VHF is a pretty low priority since 11 (though not 100%) "seems" to have shown improvement in the last week since I installed the FM filter & now 24 (and even the ever strong 30) continue to torture me with pixelization I'm thinking/hoping that if I get DB4e hoisted up on the roof/chimney it will provide enough path clearance of the trees (& power lines for that matter) to resolve these local UHF issues & improve Detroit reception as well. Given this what kind of rotor would be recommended? It seems the Channel Master one are poorly reviewed.

[signals unlimited]

I use and recommend the Eagel Apen Roto 100. It may also have poor reviews, but IMO
most rotor problems are DOA's. Once you install it, you will like it. Just be sure to follow the installation instructions to a "T".

[ADTech]

It may also have poor reviews, but IMO most rotor problems are DOA's.

I find that most poor online reviews are caused by customers who don't read directions or who don't understand what they're doing, but that's just my observation.

[Blackbeen]

I find that most poor online reviews are caused by customers who don't read directions or who don't understand what they're doing, but that's just my observation.

Well, like I said I won't be doing the install as I don't have a way to access the roof & I don't feel good not having the ability to get to the antenna/rotor if anything goes wrong, having to rely on a 80 buck an hour service call.
Today's reception was an utter mess, break up on just about ALL channels, anytime there's a 5+MPH wind reception goes wacky & today was a whooping 7MPH, just a pleasant breeze & a otherwise clear day. I'm hoping the roof mount will resolve this, I'm almost ready to break down & get satellite which I really can't afford due to the local cable monopoly capping internet services as of June 1st forcing me to an upper tier at $100 a month.
Eagel actually got pretty good reviews at Amazon, I keep in mind "dumb ass" posts & DOAs when reading them but I have read a number of posts in research stating that Channel Master product quality has gone down in recent years.
Will the ROTR100 work with the Antennas Direct CPA-19 preamp? I see they recommend the Channel Master 0068 Pre-Amp here: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=ROTR100&d=Eagle-Aspen-ROTR100-One-Cable-Antenna-Rotator-%28ROTR100%29&tab=reviews This one wire system is selling as this is one of the major concerns I had with the install, I hoping the installer can access the same brick wall access point that the cable company uses so another won't need to be made.

[ADTech]

If using the CPA19 or PA18 with the ROTR100, it is necessary to use the two-cable method.

Your reception problems are 98% likely caused by the trees. Unless you can clear them, the risk is always there that they will negatively impact reception.

[Blackbeen]

If using the CPA19 or PA18 with the ROTR100, it is necessary to use the two-cable method.

Your reception problems are 98% likely caused by the trees. Unless you can clear them, the risk is always there that they will negatively impact reception.

Ok, this really complicates maters, I was hoping to use the free port on the wall mount that shares my cable internet connection to prevent having to add to the cost & landlord hostility of adding a second dedicated antenna port but as is none of the compatible preamps seem very good or available so this might have to do. I'm also concerned that having power on the same cable might negatively effect reception, I can't see it helping at best.
I met with the installer at my place yesterday afternoon & it went better than expected the guy seemed experienced which in Toledo is very hit or miss. I'm attempting to buy as much of the items needed for install to prevent paying their mark ups but I think I'm going to let them cover the chimney mount & mast as I can't really predict will be needing for this situation. He said he would not recommend over a 10' mast for this sort of mount & that surely will not provide a 360 clearance of all trees (a number of these trees are about twice as high as my building so I don't think in this location any safe mast is going to transcend them 100%) but a pretty clear line in the Toledo direction noted on the picture. Also the Google shot of the side of my building is several years old, since that time the eaves-trough have been replaced & adding a sheet of aluminum molding underneath it (which I think is wood in the picture) between this & the metal window casing I would think this can't be helping reception in this location.
I'm also reconsidering the C2 VHF kit since I will have swing range now, is the reflector any less effective then the one on the DB4e?

[ADTech]

The DB4e reflector remains as-is. The suggestion regarding the C2 VHF kit involves using that kit for parts and mounting those key parts to the DB4e. It's a bit of a DIY "hack" or an "off-label" usage that brings modest VHF performance to the DB4e.

I still don't really see a need for an amplifier unless you are specifically trying to get Detroit stations.

[signals unlimited]

If you want to use an amplifier, the Winegard 8700 will work with the Eagel Aspen single coax hook up. If you are using seperate UHF and VHF antennas use the Winegard AP 2870. Just be sure to follow the instructions to a "T".

[Blackbeen]

The DB4e reflector remains as-is. The suggestion regarding the C2 VHF kit involves using that kit for parts and mounting those key parts to the DB4e. It's a bit of a DIY "hack" or an "off-label" usage that brings modest VHF performance to the DB4e.

I still don't really see a need for an amplifier unless you are specifically trying to get Detroit stations.

One of the main reasons for chimney mounting IS to get Detroit stations, I ordered the C2 VHF kit & CPA-19 Preamp with the intent of running a separate coax for, I suppose if worst comes to worst I could run the power cable though the window edge with a flat cable to avoid boring another hole in the brick wall but I'll see what the installer suggests.
I hope that modest VHF performance is worth the 30 bucks, I thought the same money could have just about covered the cost of a decent separate VHF antenna but I didn't want to complicate matters with yet another separate cable run into my Apt + since I've installed the FM trap 11 & 13 (though not 100%) have been pretty stable even in the present position here as the UHF ones have been really problematic, even 30 which there absolutely is no excuse for.

[Blackbeen]

Installing the C2 VHF kit wasn't the 5 minute job I expected, took about an hour & a half in my pre-caffeinated morning state. lol, the balun boot mount didn't space too well with the holes on the DB4e backbone, spacing just close enough to hold the tip of the boot, I ended up screwing the FM trap onto the backbone as well, I was hoping to install the preamp but it was dark (I work 3rd & started this at 8:50PM) so I figured I would install it after work in the morning. I didn't notice much change in reception really but I suppose I will have to wait for the roof mount on Wednesday to tell for sure.

[Blackbeen]

Post CPA-19 install in present antenna location, very little change, channel 7 (Detroit) seemed a bit more stable, 4 pixelation dropouts in an hour during daytime viewing but its hard to tell, it may just be a stable day. Nighttime, about the same as usual, again, but no ION & 4 (Detroit) is detected but unstable at about 9PM, so far definitely not worth the 60 bucks + I had to open up the plastic head before mounting to tighten one of the screws mounting the amp to the head that was externally loose (quality control anyone?) I didn't even bother to hook up the attenuator, I don't think its needed.
The rotor seems ok but I was afraid it was DOA when it failed to test synchronize, it ended up that one of the included batteries was dead, first time this has happened in many years of buying electronics (more quality control anyone???) + the command sticker for the back of the remote was near impossible remove from the adhesive sheet, I nearly had to rip the paper in half to get it off, but at least the rotor itself seems to be in good working order. I will find out tomorrow if the overall $500 investment was worth it when all is up on the roof. I'm just really worried that at some point the preamp will blow costing me (at least) a $100 for a service call, I kinda though that if the preamp was off (unplugged/failed) that the signal would just go through but just not amped but I see this is not the case & if this happens I receive nothing.

[Blackbeen]

Even though the installation was a nightmare see: http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=25987&postcount=4 Reception with the antenna up top, even though much lower than I wished, has vastly improved. I had doubts regarding the accuracy of my (compass free) eyeball pointing of the antenna/rotor due north but setting the rotor to the TV fool magnetic compass points seem REALLY spot on. At night I can reach the Cleveland channels that are far out of range & during the day many Detroit ones are solidly received. Oddly the 2 channels that are shaky (for the most part) are the 2 strongest ones 7 (WXYZ) & 4 (WDIV), I see the Adjacent channel warning, which I assume is 2.1 (7 real) (WJBK) but this channel is very low power & I didn't honestly expect to receive it at all, but now is being received very strongly, even (sometimes) during the day. I don't know it there is anything I can do about it & this is mostly a concern as the sub channel 4.2 (THIS TV) is one of my favorites. Lucky during my 3rd shift early AM viewing prime time so far this is MUCH less an issue as you would expect, I was able the to watch several hours of THIS TV programming last night w/o a glitch but this was only the first full night of viewing so I hope it wasn't a fluke. I tried using the attenuator thinking that since 7 (WXYZ) & 4 (WDIV) are so high power & now are being pulled in stronger on the roof that they might be over driving but it didn't help.
The antenna is not grounded so I'm thinking of using the: http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-TLP810NET-Suppressor-Transformers/dp/B00005T3Q2/ref=sr_1_17?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1340391529&sr=1-17&keywords=surge+protector+tv I checked outlets and (most) of them are properly grounded so I hope this will resolve.

[GroundUrMast]

Post CPA-19 install in present antenna location, very little change...Thanks, once again, anecdotal evidence that amplifiers are not a substitute for a correctly spec'd and installed antenna.

Re. grounding, My stock answer is, Grounding the mast and coax shield are prudent and relatively inexpensive steps that limit the buildup of static-electricity which can damage the tuner. When done correctly, grounding can also reduce the risk caused by a nearby lighting strike.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=901

Grounding in a basic system is a two step process:

1) Connect a #10 gauge copper wire to the antenna mast. A bronze ground clamp such as the Halex #36020 is well suited for this application. Run the wire directly to the electrical service ground. Avoid sharp bends in the wire. (If the ground wire between the service panel and ground rod is accessible, an Intersystem Bonding Termination devise (http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Breakers-Distribution-Load-Centers-Accessories-Other/ERITECH/h_d1/R-202194170/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&productId=202194170&storeId=10051#.UB9y8qCOyzo) can be placed onto the ground wire without cutting or disconnecting it. This provides a means to connect the #10 mast ground wire to the existing ground wire close to the ground rod outside the building. If possible, avoid running the new ground wire inside the building, energy from static or electrical storms is best directed to ground before it has any path into the building. The mast ground wire can be bare or insulated, your choice.)

2) Run the coax from the antenna to a location close to the electrical service ground. Install a ground block (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001I5610E/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000BPEZKK&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1C90NDN0N2CS08266D7Q) and with another peice of #10 wire, connect it to the electrical service ground at the same point you connected the mast ground.

I don't recommend short-cuts such as driving a new ground rod that is not connected to the existing electrical service ground. An isolated ground rod often has a high resistance that provides very limited ground connection. The goal is to connect to the same ground system that protects the rest of the home.

Surge protectors located inside outlet strips at the TV, computer or similar devises are worth consideration. A surge protector with a high joule rating is able to absorb more fault energy than a unit with a lower joule rating. Some surge protection units include phone jacks and F-connectors to enable protection of a phone line, coax cable and the power cable(s). However, in the case of an outdoor mounted antenna, this type of protection should not be considered a 'first-line of defense'.

In your situation, I can only encourage you to 'do the best you can'.

[Electron]

Early on in this question askers post I recommended the HD7000R aimed at 100 degree magnetic compass.

[Blackbeen]

Thanks, once again, anecdotal evidence that amplifiers are not a substitute for a correctly spec'd and installed antenna.

Re. grounding, my stock answer is:

Grounding the mast and coax shield are prudent and relatively inexpensive steps that limit the buildup of static-electricity which can damage the tuner. When done correctly, grounding can also reduce the risk caused by a nearby lighting strike.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=901

Grounding in a basic system is a two step process:

1) Connect a #10 gauge copper wire to the antenna mast. A bronze ground clamp such as the Halex #36020 is well suited for this application. Run the wire directly to the electrical service ground. Avoid sharp bends in the wire. (Often you can use a 'split-bolt' electrical connector (http://www.homedepot.com/buy/electrical/electrical-tools-accessories/blackburn/6-solid-to-8-solid-2pack-split-bolt-connector-copper-98586.html) to clamp the #10 wire to the existing ground wire close to the ground rod outside the building. If possible, avoid running the new ground wire inside the building, energy from static or electrical storms is best directed to ground before it has any path into the building. The wire can be bare or insulated, your choice.)

2) Run the coax from the antenna to a location close to the electrical service ground. Install a ground block (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001I5610E/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000BPEZKK&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1C90NDN0N2CS08266D7Q) and with another peice of #10 wire, connect it to the electrical service ground at the same point you connected the mast ground.

I don't recommend short-cuts such as driving a new ground rod that is not connected to the existing electrical service ground. An isolated ground rod often has a high resistance that provides very limited ground connection. The goal is to connect to the same ground system that protects the rest of the home.

Surge protectors located inside outlet strips at the TV, computer or similar devises are worth consideration. A surge protector with a high joule rating is able to absorb more fault energy than a unit with a lower joule rating. Some surge protection units include phone jacks and F-connectors to enable protection of a phone line, coax cable and the power cable(s). However, in the case of an outdoor mounted antenna, this type of protection should not be considered a 'first-line of defense'.

In your situation, I can only encourage you to 'do the best you can'.

Yeah, I mostly purchased the preamp due to the longer run to the roof, that ideally would have been longer if it was installed the way I wished, but decided to test on the wall beforehand just to be able to compare. I wish I had the ability to get on the roof to be able to test the difference with the preamp on/off but I don't. Suffice to say its working well aside from the channel 4 issue. I am reaching channels at night that a far out of range, I scanned 180-90 magnetic last night, a direction that was not obtainable on the wall, & was receiving very good feeds of Dayton channels, hard to tell how much the preamp has to do with this.
Good grounding tips, I really wish the installer would have been competent enough to have done this rather than the slop job he preformed, as a tenant I feel that doing this in my inexperience would be stepping over the line, if I owned the building going DIY would be more acceptable, but as is I might opt for this: http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-HT810ISOCTR-8-Outlet-Theater/dp/B000MOVIO6
though its rather pricey especially give recent hits to my pocketbook.
Ah well, this gave me a good reason to write a long report to the BBB.

[Blackbeen]

Early on in this question askers post I recommended the HD7000R aimed at 100 degree magnetic compass.

I'm not sure what this has to do with my present situation, I decided against a separate VHF antenna in favor of the VHF add on kit in order to prevent the necessity for third cable run that would have forced me to: a) make a whole new hole in the wall, that I'm sure the installers would have charged me a arm & a leg for, or b) do a sloppy flat cable run around the window edge.
I think that ultimately this was a good decision as just about all Toledo channels are now stable even in the 27 degree Detroit favoring position.
Presently the only major issue I have is with Detroit channel 4 (WDIV) & to a lessor degree 7 (WXYZ) but I don't know if there is a solution for this.

[GroundUrMast]

I may have sounded as if I was speaking against the preamp in general. Please be assured that I'm agreeing with your application, overcoming cable loss.

It's been my observation that amplifiers are often erroneously expected to act as a substitute for the correct antenna and its installation.

WDIV (real CH-45) may be having trouble due to adjacent channel interference from WUPW (real CH-46). If that's true, a more directional antenna might solve the problem.

WXYZ (real CH-41) has no such issue but is distant and below your horizon. Antenna elevation / location would be a next step to try.

Regardless, the DB4e is a far superior choice of antenna for going after the distant Detroit signals. The HD7000 would not have the UHF gain needed.

It sounds like you've done better than most folks in a landlord/tenant relationship.

Thanks for the reports.

[rabbit73]

I got an ad Solid Signal for the Televes DigiNova Boss, seemed kinda interesting as a possible quick fix, I have a J-mount outside the northbound window of my 3rd floor apt that I used to use with the DB4e antenna before I chimney mounted it, its rather expensive though given I plan on doing it up right with a Winegard HD8200U on a 50' tower when I move into a house, but I'm really missing my Detroit channels.That antenna is presently on sale, but whether it would help with your Detroit channels is unknown. Any preamp needed for Detroit signals would probably be overloaded by your strong local signals.

Here is an active link for your tvfool report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d513435d523b966

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1914&d=1457108587

[Blackbeen]

That antenna is presently on sale, but whether it would help with your Detroit channels is unknown.
Looking back at my original inclination 4 years ago to leave the pre-amp off I really wish I would have went with that, at the time I didn't have time to test reception with it on & off due to the hellish installation nightmare & limited time to access the roof. I did have 3+ years of 40-65 channels reception before it went bad though.
Right now I have 3 choices as I see it:

1) Put up with the sometimes intermittent local 20 channels I can currently receive until I move, which could be the end of the year depending on the housing market.

2) Rent a ladder & replace or remove the preamp at a cost of a minimum of 75$ which I would have to do again as soon as I move entailing double cost which I think is kind of a waste.

3) Buy another antenna for wall J-mount to get me by until I move. I've also been considering the Televes DAT-790 HD
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=149981&utm_campaign=email_flash_hdboss&utm_medium=email&utm_source=inhouse
which is now on sale for around 50$ (25$ less than the DigiNova Boss, though lacking the VHF range, but in this area there a very few VHF channels so that loss would be minimal). I wish I could remember the reception limitations of the J-mount location but my memory is foggy at this point.

I'm leaning toward option 3 as I could quite possibly use the Televes with good results wherever I end up moving to, I'll have to sleep on it.

I also forgot to add, there is a cell phone tower very close to the Detroit point so I'm curious if this LTE Filter might improve reception I wasn't at all aware of cell tower interference prior to reading about this filter.

[rabbit73]

I like option 3 also; it would give you a chance to try SOMETHING to satisfy your curiosity without being reminded of the incompetent installer, or putting you at greater physical risk.
I also forgot to add, there is a cell phone tower very close to the Detroit point so I'm curious if this LTE Filter might improve reception I wasn't at all aware of cell tower interference prior to reading about this filter.This will become a more common problem as the cell transmitters move into the frequencies previously used by the TV transmitters above CH51 and given to commercial interests by the FCC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies

This has become a problem in England; you will see filters available there, but they are rare here. Antennas Direct is a harbinger; they added the LTE filter to the Juice, but didn't have enough room left in the housing to also include an FM filter.

The attachment has the curve of the Radio Shack LTE filter that was done by ADTech IIRC.

http://forums.wtfda.org/showthread.php?8792-RF-Channels-57-thru-61-issue

[ADTech]

The Juice never had an FM filter. Also, the latest version of the Juice's filter is now a "cellular filter", it cuts in later than did the ones in the first production run as they cut in a bit too early and there was some affect on the upper UHF channels. The filter is no longer mentioned in the marketing, it will disappear from the packaging the next production run.

FWIW, I've yet to personally see a single instance of reception issues specifically attributable to cell and 4G service. I suspect the UK folks are being might conservative.

Also, the filtering in the Televes is going to be relatively useless for North American systems, it was designed and manufactured for the Euro market.

The RS filter is NLA although you might fined it on ebay or in-store on closeout.

[rabbit73]

Thanks for the filter clarification; I edited my previous post.

Is there any chance that the external AD FM filter can be modified for more attenuation at the high end of the FM band now that the RS and MCM FM filters and HLSJs (which can be used as FM filters) are becoming hard to find?

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1510&d=1441159109

[shoman94]

Is there any chance that the external AD FM filter can be modified for more attenuation at the high end of the FM band now that the RS and MCM FM filters and HLSJs (which can be used as FM filters) are becoming hard to find?


I recently installed this HLSJ purchased from amazon LINK (http://www.amazon.com/Separator-combiner-signals-FMTVS-OHMS/dp/B00L9G1NTG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1457236460&sr=8-1&keywords=fm+splitter)

I could not find spec sheets. Maybe @ADTech can test one?

[rabbit73]

I couldn't find the specs either for the Cabletronix FMTVS. It isn't a HLSJ or FM trap/filter, but a TV/FM separator. It might be possible to use the TV section as an FM filter, but I would want to know the specs first. I seem to remember that the FM rejection of the TV section isn't quite as good as an FM filter or HLSJ.

ADTech has measured HLSJs:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1750&d=1447018218

[shoman94]

I couldn't find the specs either for the Cabletronix FMTVS. It isn't a HLSJ or FM trap/filter, but a TV/FM separator. It might be possible to use the TV section as an FM filter, but I would want to know the specs first. I seem to remember that the FM rejection of the TV section isn't quite as good as an FM filter or HLSJ.

ADTech has measured HLSJs:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1750&d=1447018218


Sorry I miss named it. I have installed it and it didn't effect any of my vhf stations in comparison to having 2 RadioShack filters installed. I do think it increased my signal slightly.
I would love to see specs for it also.

[ADTech]

Is there any chance that the external AD FM filter can be modified for more attenuation at the high end of the FM band now that the RS and MCM FM filters and HLSJs (which can be used as FM filters) are becoming hard to find?

No. I expect the FM filter to be discontinued when current stock runs out if we don't liquidate it sooner. It's such a low volume mover that we've probably paid for them several times in warehousing fees since we last bought any several years ago. Management has been aggressively pruning money-loosing SKUs from our product line for the last year. We probably give more of them away to customers who are having issues than we sell.

I'd caution you not to extrapolate the test results from a single item sample to the larger body of stock. The FM filters we carry are all over the map when it comes to their tuning, they're simply inexpensive devices manufactured and shipped with minimal QC. Usually, if someone has a specific frequency that needs attention, I can hand-select a pre-tested filter out of my desk drawer that matches most requirements.

[rabbit73]

I'd caution you not to extrapolate the test results from a single item sample to the larger body of stock.Understood
I expect the FM filter to be discontinued when current stock runs outSorry to hear that.

AD is one of the last sources for FM filters, and HLSJs and UVSJs are in short supply.

If a poster who has bought an Antennas Direct antenna and has VHF-High channels to receive but has FM signals in the +10 dBm range (which I've seen) what will you tell him?

What will I tell him?

Is there no corporate responsibility to help him just because he lives too close to an FM transmitter?
Management has been aggressively pruning money-loosing SKUs from our product line for the last year.I appreciate the fact that the final decision isn't yours, but I hate to see an AD customer twisting in the wind.

[ADTech]

Is there no corporate responsibility to help him just because he lives too close to an FM transmitter?

Perhaps that question should best be asked of the TV set manufacturers who leave their tuners wide open to interfering frequencies so they can save a few cents per TV. They could easily address the selectivity of out-of-band signals right in the tuner.

I hate to see an AD customer twisting in the wind.

I beg to differ.

We're not leaving them to twist in the wind at all. The company is run, first and foremost, to be prosperous and to thrive. If that means pruning must be done, it will. Hey, I grew up on a farm. I understand pruning, whether it be a crop, a tree, a vine, or a herd of livestock. If conditions outside our reasonable control cause reception to fail, the antenna gets returned and the customer moves on. We can't fix every problem that arises.

Anyone whose livelihood depends on the business' prosperity will see the necessity of that mind set. For anyone to expect our company (or any other for that matter) of needing to be all things for everyone is not taking a reasonable approach to expectations. This industry is full of names that are no longer in business or failed and had to be "rescued". Radio Shack is the most recent, Channel Master went bankrupt back in '03. Even our competitor, Winegard (whose business fortunes are private), has been aggressively trimming their product offerings over the last several years.

Given our (still, sort of) free market system, if there's a need out there that can be filled at a profit, some entrepreneur will recognize the niche and fill it. Care to go into business selling low-volumes of traps, diplexers, and the like for low margins?

Okay, off my soapbox...

Cheers!

[rabbit73]

Your points are well stated, realistic, and understood. Thank you for taking the time to explain your viewpoint.

I still don't know what to tell someone with strong local FM transmitters other than you are SOL, don't aim a VHF antenna that way, use a HLSJ (if there are any left), use a UVSJ to limit your reception to UHF, forget about DX from other DMAs, etc.

[shoman94]

Your points are well stated, realistic, and understood. Thank you for taking the time to explain your viewpoint.

I still don't know what to tell someone with strong local FM transmitters other than you are SOL, don't aim a VHF antenna that way, use a UVSJ to limit your reception to UHF, etc.

How strong usually effects the signal when a preamp like the Juice is used? I ended up removing my filters for the FM splitter which I felt helped a little on my VHF-hi channels a touch signal strength wise. Then today I removed it all together. When I used the AD-PA preamp I needed them but when I replaced it with the AD-Juice (Thanks ADTech) I did not need to attenuate the FM signals anymore.
The 2 FM station are 3.2 miles from my home and have a RX(dbm) of -18.9 and -24.4.

[rabbit73]

How strong usually effects the signal when a preamp like the Juice is used?The juice is an excellent design that is highly resistant to overload. It is less likely to need an FM filter than most other preamps.

Thank you for your test results; I will need that information to help others.

I'm wondering how it would do with this FM report with FM signals about 30 dB stronger than yours:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1919&d=1457391314

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1919&d=1457391314

[shoman94]

The juice is an excellent design that is highly resistant to overload. It is less likely to need an FM filter than most other preamps.

Thank you for your test results; I will need that information to help others.

I'm wondering how it would do with this FM report with FM signals about 30 dB stronger than yours:


Wow! Talk about being right next door!

[Blackbeen]

A bit of an update, since my last post the CPA-19 started to sputter work again as it did before the total burn out (?) i.e. in the 220 magnetic sweet spot I'm able to put in 27 channels, oddly WHTV Jackson MI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHTV very clearly most times of the day which boggles my mind due to the antenna direction, station power/location, totally freakish when ch 7 is totally out of the picture.
So anyhow I decided this was enough to get me by so I passed on the Televes but now Solid Signal has the HDB91X http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HDB91X&utm_campaign=email_dailydeal_hdb91x&utm_medium=email&utm_source=inhouse
on sale for 35$, being that its such a low cost & could use it conceivably at my future home I thought I'd grab it & put it on a tripod inside the room by the outside jmount since it won't fit on it due the the dimensions. I know it will get questionable results inside but it will eventually get an outdoor mount when I move. I might connect a A/B switch to toggle the present antenna since it pulls in the locals pretty well.

[shoman94]

Funny how the design and naming look so familiar on the solid signal antennas!

[Blackbeen]

Funny how the design and naming look so familiar on the solid signal antennas!
The Antennas Direct 91XG seems like a slightly better version of the same design but at less than half the price I had a hard time not passing on the HDB91X.

[Blackbeen]

Well the preamp finally burned off for good it seems & I can hardly pull close range local channels from the roof, I get more from the indoor HDB91X, but in a brick building its not great, as much as I hate to buy another antenna, that I ultimately won't use when I move, I've been considering getting a HDB4X, that is currently on sale at Solid Signal $25, as a quick fix, to put on the northbound wall Jmount that I originally used before I moved the db4e to the roof. With the pole I bought for HDB91X I think I could hoist it above the roof gutter. I've been wondering how the HDB4X compares to the db4e since the design is very similar but it only quotes a 50 mile range to the db4e's 60+, I guess for $25 I can gamble, at worst I could stabilize the local channels for the short run, not even being able to do that is pretty annoying.

[Blackbeen]

The HDB4X is definitely not equivalent to the db4e, so the 50 vs. 65+ miles range is pretty accurate & nothing beyond that, on the plus side I don't seem to have FM breakup issue with WTOL 11 that I had with the db4e before adding a line filter, but I'm not sure if anything has changed in the last 5 years that resolved this outside of the antenna. Regardless the local 21 are stabilized with this on the Jmount, I was hoping to reach the stronger Detroit channels but that's not going to happen with the HDB4X.