Loss of reception after two years

[Buffaloed in Montana]

We have 2 antennas mounted on 2 different buildings on our property. We have had adequate reception on both for over 2 years. About 6 weeks ago the reception started becoming sketchy, with our HDtv breaking up, going black and coming back on. It got worse over 2 or 3 weeks until there was almost no reception at all (now only once in a great while does it fight for a signal and is on for a few seconds) The signal strength on the menu shows no signal at all registering. Two older TVs and the other antenna don't work either.
My husband has switched cables, TVs and tried everything he can think of. Noone else seems to have this problem, even people who live miles farther away. (We are on a hill and about 20 miles from transmitters)
If someone has activated something in the area that is interfering, why would it have been a gradual losing of reception?
It seems like it all started about the time the solar flares were especially bad. Could that have done some kind of permanent damage?
Thanks so much for any input at all on this.

[Dave Loudin]

Please follow the steps in the sticky "Guidelines when asking for help" so we know what your situation looks like, at least RF-wise.

[Electron]

Do as the other question askers do and , Do This-> http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=4. Use your exact address to make the tvfool radar report. Make the antenna height 25 feet or how ever high the antennas are. Of the antennas pictured what antenna/s look the most like in the picture. http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html. Do the antennas amplifiers??

[signals unlimited]

I agree that we could help more with the TV Fool information, but with two antennas and receivers producing the same problem, I am jumping to interference. If you have electric fences check for arcs from wet grass ect. Electrical arc from power lines will have the same effect.

[Buffaloed in Montana]

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d36166c83f5d149
Here is the info. If I need to add something else please let me know.

(As far as power poles there are none in our area at all. No electric fences, at least not close by that we know of. This is a rural area)

[Buffaloed in Montana]

The antenna looks like the All Band UHF-VHF-FM.
There are no amplifiers.
But as I said, we had no problem with reception before this.

[Electron]

To prove out the reception situation. Connect a known to be good matching transformer (balun) to the antenna and connect a known to be good Long coax to the matching transformer , run the coax through a open door or window direct to the Tv. The tv must scan for the digital broadcast tv channels , Do Not scan for cable tv channels. If reception is still bad , connect a known to be good tv.

[Buffaloed in Montana]

We will try all that again. Just one question, to make sure about "a good tv". This TV plays movies from a DVD player perfectly. Is it possible for it to have lost its ability to accept TV reception? On the TV menu showing the signal, it shows no bars at all.
And keep in mind, 2 other TVs have no reception either.

[Dave Loudin]

You've been getting four channels, correct? Three VHFs and one UHF? Have there been trees growing nearby?

[Buffaloed in Montana]

We got the 3 main networks, and several PBS channels. Yes we have lots of pine trees in the area of that direction, and considered that. It just seems unlikely (they're Ponderosas and not fast growers) that they would have grown taller during the late winter and interfered with both antennas in 2 different locations at the same time.

[GroundUrMast]

The make and model of your antennas is going to be helpful information. Do the antennas have integral baluns? Or are there balun/matching transformers connected to terminal posts?

What weather sealing measures have been taken to keep water out of the coax and connectors? If the antennas were installed at about the same time and have been subjected to the same weather, I wonder if water has gotten into the coax.

In your first post you said, "My husband has switched cables, TVs and tried everything he can think of." Does this mean that the cable from the antenna was replaced with a new, factory assembled cable?

(I'm concurring with the gist of Electron's thought in post #7 of this thread.)

[Buffaloed in Montana]

Unfortunately, we don't have the info on the antennas, but both were bought at Radio Shack (the house one is bigger than the outbuilding one) and were told these were the best for our situation. --and they were--til a month ago. The smaller one had been working for 4 years.
He tried connecting a 2nd coax (not exposed to the weather) directly to the house antenna. BUT, we did not do a channel scan at that time. We will have to repeat that test.
How can cable be protected from water when it's connected up in the air and exposed to weather?
Just a side note: Today he tried our small TV in our RV that has a Winegard amplified antenna that also used to get reception. No dice.

[Buffaloed in Montana]

The transformer is connected to the terminal posts on the antenna.
The alternate cable was one he installed along with the other, but not used. He put the ends on them himself.

[GroundUrMast]

Products such as Coax-Seal and Scotch #2228 (http://www.homedepot.com/buy/electrical-electrical-tools-accessories-electrical-tape-wire-connectors-electrical-tape/scotch-1-in-x-10-ft-2228-rubber-mastic-electrical-tape-124472.html) are able form a water tight seal when wrapped over connectors. I have seen water wick between layers of standard electrical tape so I never recommend using vinyl electrical tape alone for weather proofing, but I always wrap a layer of vinyl electrical tape over the sealing tape as a protective cover to block UV rays and to keep dirt from accumulating on the tacky surface of the sealing tape.

[GroundUrMast]

I don't want to disparage the quality of the work... but field built cables (including those I've assembled) are always high on my list of suspects. The gradual loss of signal quality is a classic symptom of a cable filling with moisture. The matching transformer at the antenna is also on the list of suspects. If the 'test' cable had been in the weather, try a known good (new) cable.

If water has gotten into the coax, it needs to be replaced. Water will permanently alter the RF properties of the coax.

[Buffaloed in Montana]

Well, that does sound like something, although he bought a new transformer and with trying the 2nd cable....
Anyway, my husband says thank you and will certainly look into all this. But first he says, he's going to mount the antenna on the lumber rack on his truck, put a generator in the back with a small TV. And drive it around the roads to see what happens. (Yes, he's serious)
There is a cellphone tower a mile or two from us that just might possibly be in a direct line and that may have increased it's power and causing interence. So his experiment will eliminate that possibility. I'll let you know how that goes.

[GroundUrMast]

A reasonable plan, even if only for those with a generator and rack on their truck. :)

[Buffaloed in Montana]

New info: Our previous tests were not very scientific or complete and too many variables. We've discovered that one old analog TV will get clear reception on the smaller antenna for the one analog channel: 32. It barely gets a little something on the bigger antenna (same channel). Converter box didn't help. The other old TV gets nothing, and neither does the digital TV. (Our son told us TVs differ in sensitivity to signal, and digital TVs need a stronger signal, since it's all or nothing with them.) All 3 TVs used to get good reception with our 2 poor little antennas.
We took the digital TV out on our excursion (see above post), new transformer, store bought cable, was very clumsy trying to get the antenna faced in the right direction, scanned for channels: nothing.
Visited a neighbor (about 1/4 mile away) who has a larger antenna with amplifier. He gets fine reception.
The bottom line seems to be: Something has changed the signal strength in the area. (The cell tower is not really in line with the northerly TV signal, but could still be a factor maybe).
So buy a big expensive antenna with all the amplifying equipment and hope it works?

[Dave Loudin]

A quick test for local electrical interference: are you getting a lot of noise on AM radios at your house?

[GroundUrMast]

Is it possible to take your digital TV to the neighbor, connect to their antenna to prove you have a functional tuner? If so, your converter box should be tested also.

No point in replacing the antenna(s) if there is trouble with the tuner(s).

In general, I'd try to prove each part good or bad if there is a reasonable means to do so.

It doesn't happen often, but over the years, I've found more than one failure in the same system... Most recently, this morning, the local telco repaired my DSL service. When the technician called to let me know they had fixed the problem, they indicated that they had found two separate faults, either of which would have caused the intermittent trouble.

If you have the means to take a digital photo of your antennas, feel free to post them. Close up of the matching transformer and it's connections would be good to see.

[signals unlimited]

I noticed that three of your channels are VHF. If these are the channels with problems, it could be FM interference. You have no amplifier so you have nothing in your system to stop FM. Traps are available at www.solidsignals.com

[Buffaloed in Montana]

Thank you for that input too. We are learning so much. This is so interesting!
As it appears, all the channels are affected, even the one analog channel. But we can see the benefits of just an amplifier are important.

[Buffaloed in Montana]

I don't know why we don't think of these logical things. We don't know that neighbor at all (I woke him up/works nights). But we do have a friend farther away who's antenna works. Will do!

[Buffaloed in Montana]

Again, yes, we will definitely try the TV at a friend's.
I will work on trying to get pictures.
Thanks!

[Buffaloed in Montana]

Dave
We only have one small not-so-great radio, but tried it and I think the AM and FM are about normal for reception. Thanks!

[Buffaloed in Montana]

GroundUrMast:
I couldn't get the pics to upload. Have to resize(?) or something for the limits to upload them here, and was unable to figure out how to do that. I'm on the outer fringes of understanding any of that stuff.
Our antenna is only 6' long, compared to our friend's-also from Radio Shack-which is 16'. She also has an amplifier. We took the TV there today and tried it--Nada.
So it would appear the tuner has gone bad. I called an electronics store and they seem to think it a little unusual that that would happen and still be able to play DVDs OK.
The TV is 6 yrs old, and just for them to look at it will cost $50. So we'll have to decide which way we want to go on that.
It's evidently as you said--more than one thing can go wrong. The other problem would seem to be the converter box. It won't control either of the 2 old TVs.
Next, the size and strength of the antennas with no amplifier is not going to help the situation.
Do you have a recommendation on an antenna and any additional equipment?

[MisterMe]

... The other problem would seem to be the converter box. It won't control either of the 2 old TVs.
...Converter boxes do not control TVs. Converter boxes receive ATSC digital signals, convert these signals into analog signals, and retransmit them to your TV or VCR. Common retransmission paths include RF via NTSC Channel 3 or NTSC Channel 4, composite video, or S-Video. In the case of NTSC broadcast signals, the better converter boxes pass them through.

A converter box has essentially the same relationship with your old analog TV as does a VCR. If you use an RF connection, then you set the TV and converter box to the same RF channel--either RF3 or RF4. Thereafter, use the converter box's remote control to change channels. If your converter box is connected to your TV via composite video or S-Video inputs, then set your TV to one of its auxiliary ports. Use your converter box remote control to change channels.

While using your converter box, your TV's remote control controls only the ON/OFF, the volume, and other inputs. Your converter box's remote control controls only the converter box.

[Buffaloed in Montana]

I think we get the gist of that, and it could be that things got changed and they were not on the same page. Using the conv. box remote, it would not turn on the TV or change the channels. We'll see if we can fiddle with it and see if that will correct the problem.
My husband is very good with most things, but electronics can stump him.

[Buffaloed in Montana]

Now that we have narrowed down our reception problems (bad TV tuner, splitter bad) we wonder if it would be wise to buy a bigger, better antenna.
What would be appropriate for our situation to ensure good reception for all the main channels available closest to us?
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d36166c83f5d149

Thanks so much for all your help! We would still be in the dark without it.

[GroundUrMast]

Now that we have narrowed down our reception problems (bad TV tuner, splitter bad) we wonder if it would be wise to buy a bigger, better antenna.
What would be appropriate for our situation to ensure good reception for all the main channels available closest to us?
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d36166c83f5d149

Thanks so much for all your help! We would still be in the dark without it.

If you were satisfied with the reception until the problem(s) developed, it's hard to suggest that you spend money on a larger antenna. That your friend / neighbor is using a larger antenna and an amplifier is not proof that you'll need too. Signal condition change a great deal from one lot to another in hilly and mountainous terrain. Your TVFR shows line of sight to most of the available stations. Someone not far from your location could be blocked by more terrain and thus need a much larger antenna than you.

Many of the new TVs and converter boxes have some sort of signal meter built in. If you purchase a new set or converter, be sure it has a signal meter. As a next step, I'd like to know if the existing antenna is producing a good signal. The steps outlined in earlier posts in this thread already explain how to use a process of elimination to determine whether the antenna is too small or defective. That trouble shooting process depends on a working TV. A TV with a signal meter included helps to judge the strength/quality of the signal.

Having said all that, if I was staring from scratch, I'd use a Winegard HD7694P pointed north, at about 5° compass. If the cable run was less than 100', and I was connecting a single tuner, I would not use an amplifier of any sort. I would ground the mast. And separately, I would ground the coax. (I would want to take reasonable steps to protect my TV tuner from damage due to static electricity.) http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=901

[Buffaloed in Montana]

Thank you for all that very valuable info on grounding. My husband will be reading the links and doing that.
We will keep the antenna model # for future reference.

Our older TVs (about 2004) have a signal strength gauge on the menu. (I'm assuming that's the same as a "signal meter" you speak of) They both register about 65-67% strength.

[GroundUrMast]

Thank you for all that very valuable info on grounding. My husband will be reading the links and doing that.
We will keep the antenna model # for future reference.

Our older TVs (about 2004) have a signal strength gauge on the menu. (I'm assuming that's the same as a "signal meter" you speak of) They both register about 65-67% strength.

Signal meters on consumer grade TVs and converters are not calibrated to any common standard. So 65-67% may mean "great signal" on one set and "on the ragged edge of terrible" on another. But they are still useful because they will indicate if a change or adjustment has made the signal better or worse.

If the set is only capable of tuning analog signals, the meter will be less useful because it will only indicate to strength of the signal from the converter box, not the antenna.

[Buffaloed in Montana]

We'll start with a new TV, then go from there. That will take a little while, so will get back to you with that signal info.
Thanks again for all your help!
We ought to at least send you a bottle of wine or something!

[Buffaloed in Montana]

We got a TV we could afford and has a good warrantee, but unfortunately does not have a signal meter. (I was told most TVs don't have them now)

Anyway, we have the same reception we had before all this started, and at least that's good. (The one analog channel has always been a little grainy)

So I guess we'll leave things as they are for now, but may try that better antenna in the future that you recommended.

Again, we can't thank you enough for all your time, attention, and expertise!

Forgot to mention: my husband grounded the mast!

[OldStump]

I'm sorry if this is off-topic, but this has been one of the most interesting and fascinating threads I've ever read on any forum anywhere. :)

[Electron]

Thanks OldStump. Yes I know. It's because the the information provided is real , practical , useful and honest information , not useless ego inflating jibber jabber.

[Buffaloed in Montana]

We're very glad this has been helpful info for others. This is indeed an exceptional site with really dedicated, well-informed pros that are sincerely interested in helping others.

Just wanted to say to MisterMe:
That info reminded us that the converter box needed to be reprogrammed. For some reason it lost the connecting code and channel #. Once we established those again, everything works fine with both older TVs.

(Funny how all these things manage to go wrong at the same time and confuse the whole issue!)

[Dave Loudin]

This HAS been a fascinating thread. A big part was our wanting to understand as best possible from afar what's going on. Recommending a $60 antenna is one thing. Recommending replacing a TV is a whole 'nother matter.