Novice New Englander in need of Antenna Advice

[fonzie888]

Good Afternoon, Folks. I have been wanting to ween from satellite and cable TV for years and I have finally found the courage to rid myself of some bills , since I don't watch 7/8 of the channels I pay for. My coworker and I have been some doing research on various antennas and configs for 2 months and we both find that clearstream 4 (based on good reviews from Amazon and some high def forums) with CP19 amp and RG6 cable might be my best bet. However, I am now seeing the DB4 and 8 as a cheaper alternative. I have done all the azimuth readings (NW mostly) and need some opinions - what do you thinks about this set up? I wil be connecting to my Panasonic Viera Dig. TV. My wire length can be anywhere between 75ft -100ft depending on how neat I want to hide the wires and I will mount it outside on roof - 12 ft high ranch home (J mast could be 20" or more- not sure).

Here's my configuration:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3da36240fd2c3537


Thanks ahead of time.

[Tower Guy]

However, I am now seeing the DB4 and 8 as a cheaper alternative.

What do you thinks about this set up? .

I think that using a UHF antenna for VHF reception is a bad idea.

Consider any of the 7-69 antennas.

EZ-HD
ANT 751
HBU 22
HD7694P

[fonzie888]

Most of my channels are UHF. Do these antennas provide both VHF and UHF? The only reason why i'm asking is because I was looking for bit more detailed advice or perhaps the reason why this would work well or not. I'll have to research them. Still looking for more input.

[Dave Loudin]

Sorry to be a little blunt, but if you're doing research, you should have been able to tell that you need VHF capability and that the antennas you were thinking of don't have that. Tower Guy would not have given you those recommendations if he didn't already know that those antennas would get both bands. His recommendations are moderate gain antennas, which your TVFool report shows is all you need.

[fonzie888]

I did do research and that's why I wanted ask the gurus about the set up since I only receive 3 VHF channels in the area and the majority are UHF. Maybe I should have been clearer with the gurus, since I do not have real experience with these products as one would not have real experience in other specialities. Your recommendations are obviously sensible and I have read about the HD7694P in action and does well. I guess I could either run "one size fits all" atenna set up or two antennas. To me it will depend how the antenna handles the harsh weather. Oh, by-the-way "I think that using a UHF antenna for VHF reception is a bad idea. hardly describes why. No offense taken, Dave, because I did do my research. I needed a second opinion. Thanks a million!

[Dave Loudin]

Well, you didn't tell us you are already getting stations with an existing setup. Perhaps you were looking for a UHF-only to join with your current system? You might get a different recommendation if you describe what you have now.

Based on what you gave us, you left the impression that you were looking for a first antenna to get everything. Proposing UHF-only antennas seemed less than clever.

[fonzie888]

Thanks for the help, Dave. No prior antenna installed -the VHF statement was based on the antenna report. Since UHF is primary I now have one more option to consider - try to get thethree VHF channels with a larger fishbone antenna or use the aesthetically pleasing C4 and add on smaller VHF component later. That's show business.

[kb2fzq]

I hate how some tip-toe around these questions.....Tower Guy gave you the answer...you're starting from scratch, get both VHF and UHF on the start-up...pick one of the antennas TG suggested....
If you're worried about aesthetics, you might consider climbing back on the satellite/cable train, aesthetics are not part of good OTA reception if you want the best signal and all the channels you can get (which is what you want, and will find out why you want it once you stick some aluminum in the air and find out OTA is no where near sat/cable dependability...you WILL work for it).
Good luck....

[John Candle]

I have full understanding of why kb2fzq is angry. I to have went off on humans.

[fonzie888]

Once again, I appreciate your input on the above-mentioned UHF/VHF antenna recommendations. I believe that all these options will work well for me. I will weigh out the antennas, as I mentioned earlier.
EZ-HD - ok
ANT 751 - ok
HBU 22 - ok
HD7694P - like this one (great reviews) cheaper
C4/C5 combo - like this one too (great reviews) more expensive

They all seem to do well, however. Angry about aesthetics kb2fzq? That's ok ,kb2fzq, not your home. I guess humans have the ability to choose. The fact that you infer that you folks are not humas and rather some technical alien with foreign land is weird:confused:. My local installers seem human :).

I'll let you know how it goes in a few weeks so that others view and share. Blogs sometimes get bogged down by weird stuff, and it's getting weird in here!

[ADTech]

At 20 miles with high-VHFs @30 kW with LOS, the UHF antennas such as the C4, DB4, or DB8 will do fine.

How about this: You get one of the named antennas (I'd suggest either the C4 or the DB8 as they will do better on 12 & 13) and, if it doesn't get the two VHF channels on 12 and 13 (the one on 10 is a home shopping channel...), I will personally send you a C5 at no cost to you.

You cannot loose with this offer.

[fonzie888]

Thanks ADTech. You are on! I'm more than happy to oblige and thanks for backing your product 100%. I'll let you know the results of the C4 installation, for sure.

Kind Regards
Fonzie888

[fonzie888]

Should I mount the C4 (if I have to potentially combine C5) on a 5 foot mast?
What are the proper grounding procedures? I have been told to add a grounding rod and run ground wire from raw spot on mast to rod. Then I am to connect rod wire to grounding block with coax fitting on house prior to running second RG6 coax into the home. . Does this sound correct?

Input on both would be great!

Also, do you think my c4 will need the Pre AMP whether or not I add the C5?
My wire run will be 75-100ft.

Here's my profile:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a36240fd2c3537

[ADTech]

The C4 plus C5, with a suggested 3' separation, will need a longer mast. 10' is plenty.

Because proper grounding is usually a matter for local building codes to dictate, we're somewhat reluctant to go into specifics beyond what the National Electrical Code recommends, which can quickly become complicated with the possible variations.

Generally, the mast should be be connected via a coaxial grounding block (mounted at or near the point of cable ingress) by a continuous ground wire. That continuous ground wire should be then be connected appropriately either to a ground that is part of a permitted portion of the structure's ground electrode system (GES) or to a separate grounding rod (if required). Any ground rod then must then be bonded to the GES using an approved connection method. As I said, it gets complicated. Your local library probably has a copy of the NEC. Refer to Article 810.21 for exact details.

I wrote the following to an associate on this subject earlier this summer:


Synopsis of antenna grounding per NEC 2008

Grounding:

Mast shall be grounded IAW 810.21

Each lead-in shall have Antenna Discharge Unit (ADU aka grounding block). ADU may be either outdoors or indoors and shall be as close the point of entry as practical. It shall not be located near combustible materials. ADU shall be grounded IAW 810.21.

Synopsis of 810.21

Material. Grounding conductor may be aluminum, copper, copper-clad steel, bronze, or similar. It does not need to be insulated. When used outside, aluminum or copper-clad aluminum shall not be with 18” of the earth nor where it would make contact with masonry. The ground conductor must be fastened securely in place, be protected from physical damage, and run is as straight of line as practicable.

Electrode. Grounding conductor (from the ADU) shall be connected to the structure’s grounding system using one of the permitted means. These means includes connection to a metal water pipe system within 5’ of its entrance to the structure or directly to the structure’s ground electrode system. This grounding conductor may run either inside or outside the building. This grounding conductor shall not be smaller than 10 AWG copper, 8 AWG aluminum, or 17 AWG copper-clad steel. If a separate grounding rod is used for the antenna system, it shall be bonded to the structure’s grounding system with #6 AWG copper or equivalent.


... and that's the "condensed" version... Seriously, we recommend consulting either your local building code official or a qualified local electrician for specifics due the possibility of variations.

I suspect that you won't need a pre-amp in this situation.

ADT

[fonzie888]

Thanks ADT. I will have to consult with current manual or make a phone call to a local electrician. I appreciate the advice, since this will save me time and effort on mast placement. 10 ft or so should suffice as needed. I'll check Radio Shack.

[John Candle]

I too have a FREE C-5 from Antennas Direct for product evaluation. Had a long chat on the phone with Richard Schneider about the So Called HDTV Antennas. The Industry Wide Calling antennas multidirectional when the antennas are not really multidirectional , there is beam width and half power beam width. And the Industry Wide misleading people on , preamps and amps. The Industry Wide constant advertising about pre amp this and pre amp that. Tuned for the HDTV Channels with a built in 1,000,000 dB pre amp. Industry Wide a lot of flashy words and advertising hype.

[John Candle]

My self and a few others are doing our best to show the truth to tell the truth in a world wide storm of non correct information.

[kb2fzq]

I have full understanding of why kb2fzq is angry. I to have went off on humans.

I'm not "angry" at anyone, I just feel the debates go on way too long...it's pretty black and white..get a combo VHF/UHF antenna, put it up outside, connect a cable and enjoy HDTV....simple, right?
Maybe my age is finally catching up with me, I just grow tired of the constant posturing, here and on many different subject forums...
Sorry if I offended anyone....

[Tower Guy]

Oh, by-the-way "I think that using a UHF antenna for VHF reception is a bad idea. hardly describes why.

While several UHF only antennas can receive VHF, they do so with unpredictable results. The secret to reliable DTV reception is a clean signal without multipath. To achieve that signal, you need a directional antenna. If a UHF antenna happens to pick up VHF, but does so with a pattern that does not aim in the correct direction, the signal that it picks up may be strong enough, but could be riddled with ghosting such that your tuner can't decode the signal.

You may hear many stories on the Internet about how a particular person in a particular town is using an UHF antenna for VHF reception on a specific VHF channel. For instance, the original Channel Master 4228 worked extremely well on channel 10. It was awful on channel 7. What is not mentioned is if the tuner used may be a high performance 6th generation DTV tuner. 6th generation tuners can receive a signal even in the presence of multipath. Because there is no indication that your tuner is a 6th generation tuner, you cannot assume that any of the Internet success stories with UHF antennas are relevant to your situation.

Yet even a 6th generation tuner, which might work reasonably often, would be less effective when an airplane flies overhead or a truck drives by your house than if you used a proper VHF antenna.

[kb2fzq]

Oh, by-the-way "I think that using a UHF antenna for VHF reception is a bad idea. hardly describes why.

Because it's like trying to eat a bowl of tomato soup with a fork, you can do it, but it's not very efficient....

[Tower Guy]

Because it's like trying to eat a bowl of tomato soup with a fork, you can do it, but it's not very efficient....

Actually, it's worse than that. Due to the cliff effect with DTV it would be like wiping the fork clean before you got to lick it.

[kb2fzq]

Yes, I would have to agree....

[Tigerbangs]

AntennasDirect has touted that their UHF antennas like the C4 and C2 do VHF, but in actual fact, they MIGHT get a VHF signal if it's close enough, but the VHF range of those antennas in no way equals their UHF range, and anyone trying to use one as a VHF antenna in a fringe area is going to be mightily disappointed.

[John Candle]

To Sleep , Removed from Reality. Aesthetics is a code word. Definition: To beat on other people. For your own good '-wink-wink-' we are imposing our Aesthetics on you.

[kb2fzq]

Personally, I find my array quite beautiful, the mast rising into the sky, shining confidently as the sun reflects off of their finely tuned elements, doing what no other device can do, magically transfering information from great distances, drama, comedy, news....to my little hole in the side of the world, always ready...always monitoring...I often stand in my yard, marveling at their magnificants...
Anesthetics?...I'm sure many of us (you inclusive, John) will agree, the view of them does just the opposite...

[John Candle]

Tv Antennas and other Antennas are My Friends. Like you , I have a deep under standing of Television and Radio and what it all means.

[fonzie888]

Well, I've decided (with everyone's help) on Winegard HD7694P (eventhough I was offered free antenna.) Ordered it from Tigerdirect (54.00) and I ordered all the cables and hardware from Denny's antenna service (I like his products). Total bill about $145.00 for all items - good value. Did not order an amp because I do have a small RCA 10db amp available to me (for free) if I need it. I'm going to mount it on a 5 foot mast at the gable, which is about 15 feet high. I plan on grounding the mast to 8 foot ground rod and connecting it to a grounding block. I'm not sure If I need to ground it to pipes in house too? I'm also going to run cat 6 ethernet cable to the panasonic viera so that I can take advantage of the services it has to offer. This is all going to just one TV.

[fonzie888]

Tigerbangs, you hit the nail on the head without using a poetic license.

"AntennasDirect has touted that their UHF antennas like the C4 and C2 do VHF, but in actual fact, they MIGHT get a VHF signal if it's close enough, but the VHF range of those antennas in no way equals their UHF range, and anyone trying to use one as a VHF antenna in a fringe area is going to be mightily disappointed."

[Tigerbangs]

The HD-7694p is an excellent choice: i expect that you'll see both Providence and Boston using that antenna with no trouble at all. When installing the antenna, grab a compass and be sure to aim that antenna at 335-340 degrees. That heading is right in the middle of the spread of the Providence and Boston channels, and should allow you to see both cities.

[fonzie888]

Will do, Tigerbangs, and thanks for the azimouth advice. I have an engineer's compass; does a good job.

[fonzie888]

Well, folks, the deed is done. I had to make mounting blocks because the plumb was a nightmare - I used oak and it's now solid.

After about nine hours worth of work and prep (over a period of two weeks) the antenna is brining in 32 channels - 30 of them at 81% - 95%and two of them at 45%. The two channels are RI PBS. Any ideas how to fix them (maybe move the antenna slightly?) I have the antenna pointing 335-340. I am about 2.5 feet above the gable line (about 15 feet).

Thanks to all of those folks who gave me advice.

[Tigerbangs]

The issue is that, while WSBE is closer to you than the Boston signals, it is MUCH weaker than just about all of them, and your antenna is aimed at Boston. Question for you: can you see WHDH, the Boston NBC station clearly with your antenna aimed where it is? If you can, WSBE is really an aiming issue. While I am sure that WSBE will improve if you move the antenna towards the Providence transmitters, you will lose the some of the Boston stations if you do so. Since you have 2 very good PBS stations in Boston that you should be able to get quite well (WGBH and WGBX) how badly do you really need and want WSBE? Installing a rotator on the antenna system would likely solve your problem, albeit at some cost and an additional trip back up to the roof. Please let us know what you decide to do...

[fonzie888]

Thanks, Tigerbangs. WHDH Boston comes in crystal clear. The Boston PBS station are excellent, no doubt. I just wanted to see if I could maximize channels. What do you think about adding on a small antenna instead of a rotor to catch those pesky channels? Just a scenario.

[Tigerbangs]

Another antenna is likely to screw up what you already have: I believe that a rotator would cost only a little more than another antenna, and would work a whole lot better. You might also consider using a high-input preamp like a Winegard HDP-269, which MIGHT give you the little extra signal that you need to get WSBE reliably, but a rotator is likely to do it better...

[fonzie888]

Hmm... decisions:confused:. I guess I'll have to weigh out the need vs. want as well as the time and $$ factor. I better decide soon before the bitter wind starts up, and we know how that helps the situation :(. I'll let you know what I decide.

[fonzie888]

Well, I added the free indoor 10dbi amp (RCA) and it boosted the signal to 52%. It also boosted some of the locals to 95-100%. RI PBS is still weak as we indicated earlier in the forum. I guess the winegard pre-amp might be best and I could eliminate the 10dbi behind the TV. My wife is now questioning the time and money I'm putting into two channels. She doesn't feel spending $$ on rotor is worth the time and money, since we get great signal now and the whole reason for doing this was to save $90.00 month. Maybe I can convince her to do the pre-amp - short money and 30 minutes worth of work.

[kb2fzq]

If it were me? Enjoy what you have and put the tools (and the check book ) away....
You have one of the best TVF reports I've seen, and I've seen alot...don't mess with the great signals you already have...

[fonzie888]

Sounds like a sensible idea. I am enjoying watching PBS and high def local channels to include ION and RTV. I also watch hulu on the web. My coworker is doing a c5 and c4 combo package in his attic and he's splitting the signal to three TV sets. I'll let you know how that goes.

[fonzie888]

I recently rescanned my television using the free 10DB amp and I have acquired Cool Tv12. I guess it's a music station. It's kind of like the old MTV(80's) without any interruptions. I also picked up higher ION channels 69 - blank and 17-1, 17-2, 17-3 - all blank.