Need outdoor antenna advice please.

[tbird2340]

My current outdoor antenna is busted up and I want to get a new / better one.. I've tried researching and reading up on antennas but all the info makes my head spin.. Roters, amplifiers, etc..

Basically I got on Amazon and looked at some best selling Antennas.. I *think* I narrowed it down to the DB8 or the ClearStream4. Both get excellent reviews but I'm not sure which to get or if there is another option that is cheaper that will work just as good..

We live on the bottom of a hill and I just have my current boom antenna attached to my chimney. I was thinking I could possibly get a longer pole when I get my new antenna to try and get it higher. My current one is about 3'.. But then I thought if I make it too high would the wind be an issue.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I don't care about the listed VHF channels so don't think I need a VHF/UHF antenna.

Thanks

TVFool (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3da36206bd0a7749)

AntennaPoint (http://www.antennapoint.com/Sigle-Lane-44514.html)

[John Candle]

A wide spread of tv stations from the north to west to channel 45 to the west and a little south. How many tv's will be connected?

[tbird2340]

Just one TV..

[Tigerbangs]

Here's the question: you have signals in Youngstown from Youngstown, Cleveland-Akron and Pittsburgh available to you with the right antenna: what do you WANT to see? Obviously, Youngstown is pretty easy: it won't take much of an antenna to get those stations, but if you want Cleveland and/or Pittsburgh, then we are going to need a BIG antenna on the roof along with a rotator and a high-input preamplifier. The question is how far do you want to go with an antenna?

[Dave Loudin]

What are you looking to do? You're practically next door to the Youngstown stations, plus you have Pittsburgh to the SE, Wheeling/Steubenville to the S, and Akron to the W. Going after anything but Youngstown will require a large outdoor antenna, like a Winegard HD7698P. Anything beyond Pittsburgh will require a rotator to move the antenna aim. If you'd be happy with just the locals, then get a $4 bow-tie from Radio Shack.

Before committing to the outdoor antenna, please rerun your report for EXACT address (recommend using the maps option in order to be able to place the receive marker right over your location) and proposed antenna height.

[tbird2340]

Exact Address Report (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3da3626fc02e38d1)

I'm basically looking to get as many stations as I can within reason.. I don't really want to spend more then $100 - $200 nor do I want a 400ft mast.. I would love to get KDKA so I can watch the Steelers when the Clowns play at the same time..

Also, would I need a rotator if I got a uni-directional antenna like the DB4/8 or the ClearStream4?

Currently I have an older boom antenna that I got from my inlaws because they don't use OTA. I have no idea what the make / model is but it's one that has the sides fold in which some have broken off. It's *similar* to http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31e2xXB%2Bv9L.jpg

[Dave Loudin]

Before we're finished, you need to rerun your report and vary the antenna height at the point where you can drag the receive marker on the map. Every time you click away from the box, the predictions update. What you're looking for is a big increase in the NMs of the Pittsburgh and Akron/Cleveland stations.

Based on your current data, I'd recommend a Winegard HD7698P aimed at Pittsburgh. If you don't care about WPCW (CW) and WQED (PBS), you can use an Antennas Direct XG-91 aimed at Pittsburgh. Either way, the locals are strong enough to come in off-axis.

IF, and ONLY if the NMs improve to at least near zero for the Akron/Cleveland stations, I would use a rotator with the Winegard antenna.

Good luck!

[tbird2340]

Before we're finished, you need to rerun your report and vary the antenna height at the point where you can drag the receive marker on the map. Every time you click away from the box, the predictions update. What you're looking for is a big increase in the NMs of the Pittsburgh and Akron/Cleveland stations.

Based on your current data, I'd recommend a Winegard HD7698P aimed at Pittsburgh. If you don't care about WPCW (CW) and WQED (PBS), you can use an Antennas Direct XG-91 aimed at Pittsburgh. Either way, the locals are strong enough to come in off-axis.

IF, and ONLY if the NMs improve to at least near zero for the Akron/Cleveland stations, I would use a rotator with the Winegard antenna.

Good luck!

Ok, so here (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3da36266327ed3bf) is a more exact reading. I zoomed in all the way and clicked right on my chimney.. I then put the antenna height at 25'.. I have a two story house so I'm assuming that is about the height the antenna will be it..

I don't think the Cleveland/Akron stations are going to be possible. Also, why did you say if I don't care about WPCW (CW)? Isn't that really close to KDKA which is the channel I'm most interested in?

Can you tell me why you suggest uni-directional antennas instead of the two that I was initially thinking about? I don't doubt your knowledge, I'm just trying to get a better understanding..

Thanks again for the help! Those tvfool tools are amazing! Would be even better if you could select the antenna you want and see the results! :D

[Dave Loudin]

WPCW and WQED broadcast on high-VHF channels (look at the real channel coumn). If they are not important to you, you do not need an antenna that picks up that band. The Winegard covers channels 7-51 and the Antennas Direct covers 14-51.

All antennas have some sensitivity in many directions besides the main one. Your local stations are very strong, to the point that a paper clip would work. So, despite the relative insensitivity off-axis, you will get reception without having to turn the antenna

[tbird2340]

So am I basically buying this antenna to just get KDKA? WPXI-DT is also at 139* but only has 0.9 NM. WTOV-DT is channel 9 so that means it's VHF? WPCP-CD is at 94* so I'm not sure if I would get that if I pointed it directly at 138*..

Also, what is the best way to get an exact pointing at a specific degree? IE: 138*?

[Dave Loudin]

You would be buying the antenna for all the stations in the yellow/red. Look at the real channel column. Those are the actual channels stations are broadcasting on. Between your locals and the Pgh. stations, only two broadcast on VHF. You can buy a UHF-only antenna and not worry about those, or you can buy a VHF/UHF antenna and get those - your choice. By aiming at Pgh., you probably will not get WPCP and you will definitely not get WTOV. The only solution would be to buy a rotator, and I don't think you want to do that for only two channels.

To help you sight the antenna's aim, go back to the maps page and turn on the lines option. Zoom in on your house and you will see landmarks you can use to aim on.

[tbird2340]

I don't see an option to turn on lines..

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/8318/11081682711tvfoolgoogle.jpg

[Dave Loudin]

I just brought up the page via IE on WinXP and there is a tick box beside the radio button selections for display options labelled "show lines to each transmitter." I don't know why you don't have that.

[andy.s.lee]

tbird2340,

It looks like you are either using Chrome or Safari as your web browser.

Unfortunately, there is a pretty nasty flaw in the way Chrome and Safari (or any web browser derived from the Webkit project) handle vector drawing in the Google Maps API. Whenever the vector draw feature is enabled in one of these browsers, the memory consumption of the browser suddenly climbs by hundreds of megabytes. On some versions of the browsers or on systems with limited RAM, this is enough to crash the browser or bring the system to a slow crawl.

The problem seems to be related to the way the Javascript engine allocates unnecessarily large buffers to draw a simple line over the map and then also a failure of the garbage collection system to free that memory when the line drawing is complete. Some of these problems reside in the specific Javascript engines in Chrome (V8) and Safari (Nitro/SquirrelFish), while others stem from memory leak issues in the Webkit core itself.

To avoid crashing people's browsers or causing system-wide slowdowns (due to high memory consumption), we've had to disable the vector drawing option on Webkit derived browsers. If these memory problems get fixed, then we will be able re-enable this option in the future.

In the meantime, I would suggest using a non-Webkit based browser (e.g., Firefox, Internet Explorer, Opera, etc.) to experiment with the "show lines" feature.

[Dave Loudin]

Thanks for that information! By the way, the "show lines" feature works on an iPad.

[andy.s.lee]

Thanks for that information! By the way, the "show lines" feature works on an iPad.

That's pretty interesting. That must mean they've modified the user agent string sent back to the http server.

Can you tell if the browser's memory consumption goes up when the "show lines" option is turned on?

I really hope they have fixed or will fix this bug soon because line drawing is such a simple task yet enabling this feature can be crippling to the browser or to the computer as a whole.

Best regards,
Andy

[tbird2340]

OK, so I got the 91XG and it works pretty good. KDKA comes in perfect! One issue I'm having though is with PBS (45.1).. It comes in but frequently goes completely out (no signal) for seconds and then comes back..

The db is around 27 so it's weird that it's cutting out. It's 16.5 miles from me and it's at 245*. KDKA is 47.5 miles from me and it's at 138* and only around 5db and it comes in perfect.. Is it because I'm pointing directly at KDKA (138*)?

Any way to fix this? We've never had PBS tune in and now that I get it (somewhat) there are a lot of shows my kids like.

Thanks

[ADTech]

Is it because I'm pointing directly at KDKA (138*)?

Perhaps. It depends on WHICH WNEO signal you're getting.

At about 90° off boresite and assuming you're getting WNEO's signal from their primary tower, most Yagi-style antennas such as the 91XG are about as blind as a bat by design.

TVFool does show that WNEO operates a channel 44 translator overlooking Youngstown. If you're getting that one, it's coming in off the back of the 91XG and may be suffering severe degradation.

Can you check to see which WNEO you're getting?

[tbird2340]

How do I check which one I'm getting? I tune my TV to 45.1 so I just assumed it was the WNEO-DT that is at 245*.

[Dave Loudin]

Two ideas: 1) try entering the RF channel directly (works on my old Samsung tuner and my cheap "converter box"). If you enter 44 and get 45.1, then you'll know.

2) enter a manual channel scan mode and try the real RF channels for WNEO.

[Dave Loudin]

OK, so I got the 91XG and it works pretty good. KDKA comes in perfect!

Are you getting any other Pittsburgh stations, like WPXI, WPMY, or WPGH?

[tbird2340]

Are you getting any other Pittsburgh stations, like WPXI, WPMY, or WPGH?

Nope. I don't get any of those.

[tbird2340]

I think it's definitely 45.1 WNEO-DT.

[tbird2340]

Ok. Some strange things.. Even on NBC sometimes I get a NO SIGNAL for a second or two.. It's not often but it's often enough.. When I go to my diags it says the signal strength is 95 with the SNR (db) at 30.. AGC (%) at 35.. Any ideas?

[No static at all]

Are you using a rotator?

[tbird2340]

Nope.. Nothing but the antenna..

[No static at all]

Unless the 91XG is aimed fairly close to the signal source, it may be unreliable, even with strong local signals.(especially on windy days) You may get by with signals coming in directly behind the antenna if multipath isn't excessive.

[tbird2340]

So what do you suggest? Thanks

[No static at all]

You'll either need a rotator, or an additional small UHF antenna aimed at your local towers with a separate cable running to the TV. You would then use an A-B switch at the TV to select which stations are desired.

[John Candle]

W44CR-44 PBS translator station is the same as WNEO-45 PBS. WKNB-41 CBS , WFMJ-20 NBC , WYFX-19 FOX , WYTV-36 ABC , The only others that I can see that are worth going after are WPCW-11 CW , WPMY-42 MyNetwork , both at magnetic compass 146. . And maybe WPCP-27 if you can figure out what programing is on.

[tbird2340]

I am beyond mad.. KDKA is all jacked up and I don't understand why.. It is a beautiful day here, 68*, sunny, barely any wind.. I went out and looked at my antenna and it's not moving at all.. What the hell can be causing this and what can I do to fix it? All I care about is KDKA as I need to watch the Steelers games!

How can I watch a full game with no issues one day, and then have it skip all over the place the entire game another time?

Signal strength: 62-70
Errors: Tons
SNR (db): around 20
AGC (%): around 60

http://i53.tinypic.com/10qyrfp.jpg

[John Candle]

Call the Tv station , talk with the engineering department. They can bring professional test equipment to your location to analyze the reception situation.

[No static at all]

I am beyond mad.. KDKA is all jacked up and I don't understand why.. It is a beautiful day here, 68*, sunny, barely any wind.. I went out and looked at my antenna and it's not moving at all.. What the hell can be causing this and what can I do to fix it? All I care about is KDKA as I need to watch the Steelers games!The atmosphere is experiencing a bit of enhancement this weekend in parts of the northeast which can actually harm normally reliable stations. You may want to experiment with the height/aim of your antenna to maximize KDKA to help improve reliability during times of unfavorable conditions. This is usually best done during more normal reception conditions.

[tbird2340]

So I'm still having this issue and it's driving me nuts.. It happens with all channels, not just KDKA.. Here is a video of what I mean:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSMgUGbEXAk&hd=1

I have replaced one of the coax lines that runs from the antenna into the house but I still have it connecting to a coupler and then another 25' that goes to the TV that I didn't replace (thought 50' would be long enough)..

I didn't have any of these issues with my old antenna using the same cables (before replacing the 50' coax).

Any ideas?

[mtownsend]

The sporadic dropouts are unlikely to be caused by your cabling. Anything that your cables/couplers do to the system is going to remain static as opposed to something that varies so rapidly.

I suspect that the problem is more likely to be related to the way your antenna is pulling in signals from the environment. I believe that you said your antenna is pointed directly at KDKA (138º). This means that channel 41 is coming in through the "back" side of the antenna, a little off center, but in part of the antenna's radiation pattern that has low gain.

Also keep in mind that TV signals can bounce around the environment (off buildings, terrain, trees, etc.). Your antenna is probably picking up a combination of the "strong" signal entering the "weak" side of the antenna plus a mix of randomly reflected signals that are entering the "front" of the antenna. This combination of signals (direct and reflected) can look like multiple overlapping echoes of the same signal to your receiver. This is also known as multipath. When the multipath corruption of a signal gets bad enough, the channel can no longer be decoded and you can end up with channel dropouts.

One way to fix this is to re-point your antenna. This will change the relative strength of the "echoes" contributing to multipath. As you turn the antenna, some of the signal paths will become stronger while others become weaker. With an antenna rotator, you would be able to slowly change the direction of the antenna until you find a spot that has minimal problems with channel dropouts. It's a lot more work without an antenna rotator, and the optimum position might change as the weather, seasons, and tree leaf density changes throughout the year (and change the amount of reflected signal hitting your antenna from various angles).

Your older antenna might have behaved differently because the hot and cold spots in the antenna's radiation pattern are in different places for each antenna.

[Tower Guy]

So I'm still having this issue and it's driving me nuts.. It happens with all channels, not just KDKA..

Any ideas?

KDKA's signal is weak and 2 edge. It is normal for such signal to fade slightly. The other stations ("all channels")are not in the main beam of the antenna, so multipath is likely on those stations.

The question is what to do about it. You need a bit more signal from KDKA, but your antenna is as big as practical. Your feedline is new and RG6, the strong local stations prevent the use of a preamp.

If I lived in your house I'd get a channel filter tuned to channel 25, and use an HDP-269 preamp with the filter installed between the antenna and the preamp. The filter will prevent overload of the preamp.

Tinlee CF-7
Microwave filter 3303D
Blonder tongue BPF-U
Or build your own using this design web site;
http://www.wa4dsy.net/cgi-bin/idbpf

[tbird2340]

So I went up on my roof the other day to try and do some minor adjustments to see if I could get KDKA solid without any blacking out like in the past.. Now it's even worse, on all channels.. Here is how my antenna looks if this is any help what so ever..

http://www.tdsconsulting.net/images/antenna/Antenna%20(1).JPG

http://www.tdsconsulting.net/images/antenna/Antenna%20(2).JPG

http://www.tdsconsulting.net/images/antenna/Antenna%20(3).JPG

http://www.tdsconsulting.net/images/antenna/Antenna%20(4).JPG

http://www.tdsconsulting.net/images/antenna/Antenna%20(5).JPG

http://www.tdsconsulting.net/images/antenna/Antenna%20(6).JPG

[No static at all]

If I were in your shoes, I would first get a rotator. After installing, if still having problems with KDKA you can try raising/lowering the antenna in 6 inch increments to find a possible better sweet spot.

You could also likely benefit from some very conservative amplification to compensate for the line loss of the coax. The highly tolerant Winegard HDP-269 would likely be the best preamp choice, but still not sure if it can resist potential overload from the nearby locals.

I have personally had better luck when just a small of extra gain is needed using the Channel Master 3414 distribution amp. I've really been impressed with how well it can improve marginal signals in blistering strong signal areas.

Unfortunately no matter what you do, some occasional signal intrerruptions will still likely occur with the weak 2 edge signal from KDKA.

[tbird2340]

If I were in your shoes, I would first get a rotator. After installing, if still having problems with KDKA you can try raising/lowering the antenna in 6 inch increments to find a possible better sweet spot.

You could also likely benefit from some very conservative amplification to compensate for the line loss of the coax. The highly tolerant Winegard HDP-269 would likely be the best preamp choice, but still not sure if it can resist potential overload from the nearby locals.

I have personally had better luck when just a small of extra gain is needed using the Channel Master 3414 distribution amp. I've really been impressed with how well it can improve marginal signals in blistering strong signal areas.

Unfortunately no matter what you do, some occasional signal intrerruptions will still likely occur with the weak 2 edge signal from KDKA.

Any recommendations on rotators? How do people get power up to their roofs? That's something I don't think I'll be able to do so I doubt I can even get one..

[No static at all]

Either the Channel Master 9521 (http://www.google.com/search?q=channel+master+9521a&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=channel+master+9521a&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=NZ2&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=sEK1Tt7rAqv82gWYhs3MDQ&ved=0CIMBEK0E&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=e1dc53bf2e092fd&biw=1024&bih=605) or Eagle Aspen (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=eagle+aspen+rotr100&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=16206561661489614247&sa=X&ei=zkK1Ts7jNYHs2AWKo8XMDQ&ved=0CGcQ8wIwAg) would be a good choice. The power supply is inside near the TV, so no power outlets are needed outside.

[tbird2340]

Few more questions..

1. Should I consider a different antenna all together?

2. What would "potential overload" do? Could it cause damage to the TV?

[No static at all]

No, the antenna you have is about as good as it gets. I

Overload won't damage anything, but may compromise reception of some stations. (Usually the weakest ones will be lost or made worse) It's best to stay on the conservative side with one or more strong signals around.

It's all about experimentation. I have found a vertical sweet spot which yields excellent reception of all available stations. Just a few inches up/down on the mast makes a world of difference here.

[tbird2340]

No, the antenna you have is about as good as it gets. I

Overload won't damage anything, but may compromise reception of some stations. (Usually the weakest ones will be lost or made worse) It's best to stay on the conservative side with one or more strong signals around.

It's all about experimentation. I have found a vertical sweet spot which yields excellent reception of all available stations. Just a few inches up/down on the mast makes a world of difference here.

So how do you go about adjusting?? I went on the roof w/ my cell and had my wife watching the TV while I had the debugging / signal info on the channel (KDKA).. That's the day I jacked it to the point where it wouldn't come in it all..

I would move it ever so slightly to the left/right/up/down etc.. Is that how you do it as well?

[No static at all]

I would move it ever so slightly to the left/right/up/down etc.. Is that how you do it as well?No, just up/down in 6 inch increments. I then can use the rotor & see the difference it makes on all stations (Some better some maybe worse) Then settle for the best compromise.

[tbird2340]

I got to thinking.. Right now my antenna is mounted to my chimney and then my coax goes down, in my basement, in a coupler, out my basement, around my house, and then into a wall plate and then into my TV..

It would probably be way easier if I somehow mounted it on the other side of my house where the cable would drop down directly into the wall plate and then into my TV.. What are the mounting options for on a side of a house?