Low success with over the air (OTA) in my upcoming house?

[ant]

Howdy.

Does it look like I won't be able to get many over OTA feeds in my upcoming home in La Habra Heights, CA 90631 on the wrong side of the big hills/small mountains facing Mount/Mt. Wilson for Los Angeles/L.A.'s transmitters?

I borrowed a portable 7" DTV with a rabbit ear's single/one antenna. I only got channel 31.x indoor (kitchen next to its big windows) and outdoor on the front side (garage, kitchen window, etc.) of the house I could face on the sloped/tilted ground level. I also sort of got more channels, but sort of stable with FOX 11.x and KABC 7.x if I am outside in front of the house's garage and facing Mount Wilson's direction(?) (forgot to bring a compass to get its exact direction). I had to face the big hills/mountains away from the neighbor's big house. I also noticed the trees were much taller than the houses. I wonder if it possible to stick an antenna up there on their main trunks (they're not higher than the huge hills though). Is that possible?

Also, can I use that existing satellite dish to act like an OTA antenna? For kicks, I tried hooking up it up to the portable DTV and it can pick up channel 31.x like the antenna! And no, it can't get it without coax port connected. Also, the sky was cloudy and started to clear out if that matters.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d40330909db0c9f (tried adjusting height and need about 188 feet to get all the ones I want in green color!)
http://i.imgur.com/q7LS4.jpg (antennaweb)
http://i.imgur.com/KWz13.gif (location on Google Maps)
http://i.imgur.com/LTao8.jpg (aerial shot of the rooftop -- note the existing satellite dish from the previous home owner)
http://i.imgur.com/seYcH.jpg to show all the trees (very tall!) in front of the house (right side).
http://i.imgur.com/uRTeb.jpg (zoomed out 45 degrees aerial shot with house on the bottom right corner)
http://i.imgur.com/vXboD.jpg (Google Earth's elevation shot of Mt. Wilson and home)
http://i.imgur.com/XThYd.jpg (Street View of more trees on west side of the house)

Thank you in advance. :)

[Electron]

Make 2 more tvfool radar reports , one at 25 feet antenna height and one at 40 feet antenna height.

[ant]

Make 2 more tvfool radar reports , one at 25 feet antenna height and one at 40 feet antenna height.

25 ft.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86cb35bdb459

40 ft.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86ddb20485e8

Still bad. It looks like I need to be at least 188 ft. have green color for the channels/stations I want. :(

[phone man]

25 ft.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86cb35bdb459

40 ft.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86ddb20485e8

Still bad. It looks like I need to be at least 188 ft. have green color for the channels/stations I want. :(

Lack of green just means you have to work harder and every db counts. With the right equipment and conditions you generally stand a chance of receiving channels down to 0 NM(db) and sometimes into the the negative numbers on your TVfool report. The report takes topography into account but not trees or buildings. Click a station on your report and you'll see how the mountains and hills affect the signal. I noticed with more antenna height, some San Diego channels popped up on your report. That's a long haul but apparently elevation makes it a remote possibility. Do any of your neighbors have a tall antenna? If so, ask them about their OTA set up and the stations they're receiving.

The only thing you can reuse from the previous satellite setup would be the coax assuming it's RG-6 and not too old. Be sure no old satellite equipment or unused coax runs are connected.

[ant]

Lack of green just means you have to work harder and every db counts. With the right equipment and conditions you generally stand a chance of receiving channels down to 0 NM(db) and sometimes into the the negative numbers on your TVfool report. The report takes topography into account but not trees or buildings. Click a station on your report and you'll see how the mountains and hills affect the signal. I noticed with more antenna height, some San Diego channels popped up on your report. That's a long haul but apparently elevation makes it a remote possibility. Do any of your neighbors have a tall antenna? If so, ask them about their OTA set up and the stations they're receiving.

The only thing you can reuse from the previous satellite setup would be the coax assuming it's RG-6 and not too old. Be sure no old satellite equipment or unused coax runs are connected.I did not see any outdoor antennae around that house on the big hill/small mountain. I saw a lot of satellite dishes which is a bad sign. The ones without them might be using cable since TWC is available in that area too.

[Tower Guy]

Howdy.

Does it look like I won't be able to get many over OTA feeds in my upcoming home in La Habra Heights, CA 90631 on the wrong side of the big hills/small mountains?


I'd wouldn't be too concerned about height, but I would be about directivity of the antenna and it's location.

I'd go with a two antenna combo, one for VHF and one for UHF. The UHF would be a 91XG. I'd mount it on the roof in a location where you can exeriment on the height to maximize the signal on your weakest UHF station. Next I'd get a Y10-7-13 for VHF. I'd use a 7777 preramp to combine the antennas.

[ant]

[QUOTE=ant;20374]Howdy.

Does it look like I won't be able to get many over OTA feeds in my upcoming home in La Habra Heights, CA 90631 on the wrong side of the big hills/small mountains?
[\QUOTE]

I'd wouldn't be too concerned about height, but I would be about directivity of the antenna and it's location.

I'd go with a two antenna combo, one for VHF and one for UHF. The UHF would be a 91XG. I'd mount it on the roof in a location where you can exeriment on the height to maximize the signal on your weakest UHF station. Next I's get a Y10-7-13 for VHF. I'd use a 7777 preramp to combine the antennas.Yikes, two big roof top antennae on the roof top? So they don't make combined one antenna with both UHF and VHF?

[ADTech]

[QUOTE=Tower Guy;20420]Yikes, two big roof top antennae on the roof top? So they don't make combined one antenna with both UHF and VHF?

Sure they do. It's 14' long!

[ant]

[QUOTE=ant;20422]

Sure they do. It's 14' long!Woah, almost three times tall as me (yeah, I am short)! I don't think that's taller than the trees and giant hills/small mountains over there though. :(

[ADTech]

I observed that the comparable antenna to a combination of a 10-element H-VHF Yagi and a 91XG would be a single antenna that is 14' long.

[Electron]

This recommendation is based on the current plus Pending Applications Included for 02-21-2012. The first post shows a default antenna height of 10 feet and does not show the the tv stations/channels to the south-east. The 25 foot and 40 foot antenna heights show the the tv stations/channels to the south-east. Going to 40 feet has a Very Small advantage over 25 feet for signal strength. I recommend mounting 2 antennas no less then 25 feet above ground. 25 feet is about the height of a antenna mounted above a roof of a single story house. I see no CBS or PBS tv stations at 327 degree magnetic compass , there are CBS and PBS stations at about 133 degree magnetic compass. So 2 antennas will need to be installed. The first antenna is a Winegard HD7082P antenna aimed at about 327 degree magnetic compass. The second antenna is a Winegard HD7698P antenna aimed at about 133 degree magnetic compass. I do not recommend a preamp for either antenna because UHF channel 23 at 9 degrees magnetic compass is a Very Strong signal and will likley overload a preamp and be the cause of bad or no reception of some channels.

[Electron]

The 2 antennas will have Separate coax that go to the location of the tv. The 2 coaxes will not be connected on to one coax , Connecting the 2 antennas on to one coax will cause cross talk between the 2 antennas and the reception will not be good. 2 separate coaxes will go to the location of the tv and be connected to a Radio Shack 15-1968 remote control A/B switch antenna switch , the output of the A/B switch will connect to the tv. Separate the the antennas by about 3 feet if mounted on the same mast. Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html. Here are places to buy antennas and etc. , http://www.winegarddirect.com , http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www.amazon.com. As examples here are some Strong and Sturdy antenna mounts , http://www.ronard.com/909911.html , http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html , http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html , http://www.ronard.com. Can find the antenna mounts at solidsignal by typing , ronard , in the search box at solidsignal or buy from ronard.

[phone man]

I see no CBS or PBS tv stations at 327 degree magnetic compass , there are CBS and PBS stations at about 133 degree magnetic compass. So 2 antennas will need to be installed. The first antenna is a Winegard HD7082P antenna aimed at about 327 degree magnetic compass. The second antenna is a Winegard HD7698P antenna aimed at about 133 degree magnetic compass. I do not recommend a preamp for either antenna because UHF channel 23 at 9 degrees magnetic compass is a Very Strong signal and will likley overload a preamp and be the cause of bad or no reception of some channels.



I like your dedicated two antenna solution or Tower Guy's separate VHF, UHF combined into a preamp along with a rotator to turn and pick up CBS, NBC, PBS and maybe even CW from San Diego.

But, I must be missing something. I don't see the strong UHF channel you mentioned at 9 degrees. This guy is gonna need a preamp, no?

[Electron]

Click on the Pending Applications Included Only Digital Channels for the UHF 23 channel. And as for a Channel Master CM9521A rotor and one antenna. Rotors are not friendly for channel surfing , must wait for the antenna to rotate. A 2 antenna set up with a hand held remote control to switch antennas is friendly for channel surfing.

[phone man]

Ouch! Pending broadcast tower .5 miles away. That would spoil it.

[Electron]

It will not spoil reception , it means No preamps. With the 2 antenna set up and the antennas no less then 25 feet high above ground , the tv stations/channels , main digital channels and sub channels will be received in the green reception zone the yellow reception zone and down to at least KNBC 36 NBC in the red reception zone and possibly even down to XHDTV-DT 47 MyNetwork in the red reception zone.

[ant]

It will not spoil reception , it means No preamps. With the 2 antenna set up and the antennas no less then 25 feet high above ground , the tv stations/channels , main digital channels and sub channels will be received in the green reception zone the yellow reception zone and down to at least KNBC 36 NBC in the red reception zone and possibly even down to XHDTV-DT 47 MyNetwork in the red reception zone.Hmm, maybe I should wait until this is set up? If I do it before it, then I might be wasting time and money?

Also, I added more shots:
http://i.imgur.com/uRTeb.jpg (zoomed out 45 degrees aerial shot with house on the bottom right corner)
http://i.imgur.com/vXboD.jpg (Google Earth's elevation shot of Mt. Wilson and home)
http://i.imgur.com/seYcH.jpg (Street View of trees in front of the house facing Mt. Wilson's direction)
http://i.imgur.com/XThYd.jpg (Street View of more trees on west side of the house)

[phone man]

Hmm, maybe I should wait until this is set up? If I do it before it, then I might be wasting time and money?

When I said "spoil it", I meant it would spoil the use of a preamp, not TV reception in general. Not being able to use a preamp could mean the difference in a weak channel that drops out frequently or one that has some margin above drop outs and can be viewed most of the time.

About the pending broadcast tower. I would try to find out what pending actually means in this case. Is it a for sure situation or does it just mean they have applied for and have plans for a tower sometime in the future, maybe years from now if ever.
The only difference in cost would be whether or not you have the preamp, $30 and up depending on what you get. The rest of the set up is the same.

[ant]

When I said "spoil it", I meant it would spoil the use of a preamp, not TV reception in general. Not being able to use a preamp could mean the difference in a weak channel that drops out frequently or one that has some margin above drop outs and can be viewed most of the time.

About the pending broadcast tower. I would try to find out what pending actually means in this case. Is it a for sure situation or does it just mean they have applied for and have plans for a tower sometime in the future, maybe years from now if ever.
The only difference in cost would be whether or not you have the preamp, $30 and up depending on what you get. The rest of the set up is the same.Ah OK and thanks. :)

[ADTech]

In march of 2010, KVMD out of 29 Palms applied to build a distributed transmission system (DTS) with one of their transmitters located in La Habra Heights. From what I can see in the FCC's system, it's just sitting out there as an application. After almost two years, I wouldn't be surprised if it's dead.

[ant]

OK, we are going to try it ourselves without professional installers and with smaller to see if they get anything. Would http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11646220 be a good choice to start from Costco?

If not, then what specific ones to get that are returnable from local retail stores to see, buy, and be able to return easily if these don't work.

Also, where can I find professional antennae installers for La Habra Heights, CA 90631?

[MisterMe]

OK. There are three obvious problems here. The first is that Costco is charging $10 over Winegard's price for the FV-HD30. The second is that you have chosen an antenna that is better for line-of-sight locations whereas you have a mountain between the transmission towers and your home. You have chosen a J-mount mast which will probably limit your antenna height to 15-20 feet whereas you need to mount your antenna as high as you can get it.

The FV-HD30 is a good antenna, but it is not a good antenna for you.

[Electron]

As a test , Yes put the antenna up and see what can be received.

[Electron]

The FCC web site shows that KVMD is transmitting. http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=16729

[ADTech]

The FCC web site shows that KVMD is transmitting. http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=16729

Yes, they have filed a license to cover their primary site that covers the city of license, Twentynine Palms. If you scroll further down that page, you'll see all the pending applications for the multiple locations for their proposed distributed transmission system that would have covered much of the Los Angeles metro area.

There is already a channel 23 licensed to Mt Wilson and another STA for La Habra Heights (KSGA-LD) which re-broadcasts KVMD. KSGA-LD has applied to move to UHF-30.

Given the overlapping and contradictory information in the FCC's database, I don't know what to believe might actually be on the air in the OP's neighborhood. Someone local to the area would need to provide first-person details.

[ant]

Yes, they have filed a license to cover their primary site that covers the city of license, Twentynine Palms. If you scroll further down that page, you'll see all the pending applications for the multiple locations for their proposed distributed transmission system that would have covered much of the Los Angeles metro area.

There is already a channel 23 licensed to Mt Wilson and another STA for La Habra Heights (KSGA-LD) which re-broadcasts KVMD. KSGA-LD has applied to move to UHF-30.

Given the overlapping and contradictory information in the FCC's database, I don't know what to believe might actually be on the air in the OP's neighborhood. Someone local to the area would need to provide first-person details.All I know there were about nine subchannels (foreigns including Chinese). What else to check for with a portal TV with basic antennae?

[ant]

As a test , Yes put the antenna up and see what can be received.OK unless there is another antenna I can get. It will be on one of the weekends...

[MisterMe]

All I know there were about nine subchannels (foreigns including Chinese). What else to check for with a portal TV with basic antennae?KVMD RF-23 broadcasts ten sub channels--all at 480i--using Virtual Channel 31. Its programming consists of sub channels dedicated to PBS and various foreign languages including Chinese and Armenian.

[ant]

KVMD RF-23 broadcasts ten sub channels--all at 480i--using Virtual Channel 31. Its programming consists of sub channels dedicated to PBS and various foreign languages including Chinese and Armenian.Yeah, that sounds about right.

[ant]

Yes, they have filed a license to cover their primary site that covers the city of license, Twentynine Palms. If you scroll further down that page, you'll see all the pending applications for the multiple locations for their proposed distributed transmission system that would have covered much of the Los Angeles metro area.

There is already a channel 23 licensed to Mt Wilson and another STA for La Habra Heights (KSGA-LD) which re-broadcasts KVMD. KSGA-LD has applied to move to UHF-30.

Given the overlapping and contradictory information in the FCC's database, I don't know what to believe might actually be on the air in the OP's neighborhood. Someone local to the area would need to provide first-person details.Where exactly is this STA in La Habra Heights? http://www.kvmdtv.com/code/coverage_m.html doesn't show it. That explains why I pick this 31.x so easily compared to others. I wonder if it is the same antenna tower I saw near by. I noticed this tower in the short NE distance: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/33774086.jpg ... http://www.antennasearch.com/sitestart.asp?sourcepagename=antennachecktowerreview&getpagename=pgtowerdetail_fcc&cmdrequest=getpage&ipos=1&registration_number=1013567 says a radio transmitter for a small college? Maybe this is not it? I wished I could stick my antenna up there. ;)

[ADTech]

Where exactly is this STA in La Habra Heights? http://www.kvmdtv.com/code/coverage_m.html doesn't show it.

See this page: http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=5342 It has the coordinates for the transmitter site. The second photo matches the satellite overhead.

I had a conversation with Ken Brown the Chief Engineer , KVMD. I am composing the results of the conversation , I will return.

Excellent. That should answer questions and clear confusion.

[ant]

See this page: http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=5342 It has the coordinates for the transmitter site. The second photo matches the satellite overhead...Ah hah! That's it! It is about a half of a mile in NE then. Heh, let's bring the rest of the stations over to this area. [grin] It was interesting that http://www.antennasearch.com/sitestart.asp?sourcepagename=antennachecktowerreview&getpagename=pgtowerdetail_fcc&cmdrequest=getpage&ipos=1&registration_number=1013567 does not say much about it as a TV translator.

[Electron]

KSMV , KVMD , KIMG , KSGA , are 4 Tv transmitters that will cover most of costal / mountain areas of southern Ca. When all 4 are transmitting. Towers and transmission equipment is in place and has been tested , Waiting for the FCC approval. Currently KSMV at Mount Wilson is the only one that is transmitting on UHF23. Even so , my recommendation for tv reception still stands. The Tv stations/channels to the south east are , CBS , Me-TV , ABC , The Cool Tv , Azteca America , FOX , Antenna Tv , This Tv , Independent channel , NBC , PBS , XHDTV.

[Electron]

The Tv stations/channels to the north west that can received are , ABC , The Live Well Network , FOX , Independent Channel , MyNetwork , Bounce Tv , Retro Tv Network , AMG Tv , America One , Tr3's , Telemundo , NBC , CW , Antenna Tv , This Tv , TBN.

[Electron]

Of all the Main digital channels and digital sub channels to the north west and south east , I only see one CBS channel and that is to the south east , KFMB digital channel 8 CBS with digital sub channel Me-Tv.

[Electron]

If you will like to install one antenna to begin with , I recommend a HD7084P antenna. You can aim it to the north west or south east.

[Electron]

How many Tv's are/will be connected??

[ant]

I'd wouldn't be too concerned about height, but I would be about directivity of the antenna and it's location.

I'd go with a two antenna combo, one for VHF and one for UHF. The UHF would be a 91XG. I'd mount it on the roof in a location where you can exeriment on the height to maximize the signal on your weakest UHF station. Next I'd get a Y10-7-13 for VHF. I'd use a 7777 preramp to combine the antennas.Do local retail stores carry these types and similiar indoor house antennae to use like in the attic that is returnable easily like at Best Buy, Fry's Electronics, Costco, etc.?

[ant]

How many Tv's are/will be connected??4-5 probably. All CRT currently though. We will get HDTVs later on. For now, let's concentrate on getting the local broadcast channels.

[ant]

If you will like to install one antenna to begin with , I recommend a HD7084P antenna. You can aim it to the north west or south east.Cool, they have this in my local Fry's Electronics store (returnable), but not Best Buy. Do I assume this one can be used indoor like in the attic too?

[ghz24]

I guess you could put it in your attic.
To me that's like having a horse as an indoor pet.:)

I'd put it outside as high up as you safely can.

Originally Posted by Tower Guy View Post
I'd wouldn't be too concerned about height

Tower Guy can correct me if I'm misrepresenting him but I think he means you needn't go to extreme heights, but above the roof line.

If you unfold that large of an antenna in the attic it may not survive being folded/extracted latter.

[Electron]

http://www.channelmasterstore.com , has converter boxes for older tv that do not have a Digital Broadcast Tv Tunner. Many of the Tv transmissions are Very Weak at your location , putting the antenna in the attic means you Will Not Receive Them. I have given you the information that will work , if you go your own way , well then thats your choice.

[ant]

http://www.channelmasterstore.com , has converter boxes for older tv that do not have a Digital Broadcast Tv Tunner...I already have converter boxes (a DTV Pal (buggy regular for VCR and its DVR models) and Zenith DTT901 from years ago.

[ant]

FYI. I uploaded three photographs/photos. of the upcoming house at http://zimage.com/~ant/MiCasa2/ from this morning after 7:43 AM PST. They show two NW views (about 333 degrees on a very old compass [yea, I brought one]). As you can see with two of them, there is a big hill with many trees from the ground level. Also, this is the same view I pointed at to get some KABC7 and KTTV11 feeds with a portable DTV with its single rabbit ear antenna (horizontal). Obviously, channel 31.x worked easily here the best due to its half mile to its NE translator near by. I also took a shot of the house roof. All three were from the ground level in front of the garage.

[Dave Loudin]

Hiya, phil! I see you're posting here as well as over at AVS. I will repeat what I recommended there for everyone's comment and review:

You are VERY shadowed to Mt. Wilson. Any locals from that direction will be scattered off of the top of the hill, and as TVFool shows, the VHF channels will bo this better than the UHF ones. Although the propagation model used by this site may not handle all scattering situations well, I believe the trends in your case, if not the actual values, are correct. For example, I doubt you will ever get a sniff of KCBS.

If I were you, I'd aim a big VHF antenna like the Winegard YA-1713 or the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 at Mt. Wilson, and tip the antenna up 15 degrees or so. That should get you 7, 9, 11, and 13. Next, I would aim an antenna (see below) at San Diego for the rest of the network affiliates.

What to use for San Diego is a bit of a quandry. You NEED KFMB RF 8 for CBS, but you don't need KGTV RF 10 for ABC. I can see at least two ways (I'm sure there's more) to go.

First, you could aim an Antennas Direct 91XG at San Diego for the UHF stations and use a rotor on the VHF antenna to swing it over for CBS. That way, you could combine both antennas into one coax drop to all your TVs.

Second, you could aim an Antennacraft HBU-55 or a Winegard HD7698 at San Diego. You would need to run a separate coax feed to all your TVs, as you could not combine the Mt. Wilson VHF antenna with this one.

Well, there is the third option of just buying the San Diego antenna and a rotor to swing it over to get the Mt. Wilson VHFs.

Each solution has its complications, so you will need to decide what you can live with and without.

[ant]

Hi again.

The house has a big backyard and it is a slope of a hill with an open area (no trees). Is it possible to build a tower for an antenna that is higher than the trees (like a forest) surrounding my home properties. I could go up more the hill until the neighbor's fence, but the trees would be in the way. How high can I go without breaking any laws (FAA?)? If not, then it will have to be on the house with its chimney (tall point on it). Let me know if I should take photographs/photos. of the backyard to show what I mean.

Thank you in advance. :)

[Electron]

Fold over or hinge base towers are the best , stand on the ground and mount and adj. antennas. http://www.palcoelectronics.com/pe300.aspx , http://www.rohnnet.com/towers-foldover

[ant]

Fold over or hinge base towers are the best , stand on the ground and mount and adj. antennas. http://www.palcoelectronics.com/pe300.aspx , http://www.rohnnet.com/towers-foldoverWow, expensive. Is there a FAA rule/law on high it can be? Can it go higher than that giant hill that is blocking my Mt. Wilson's view? ;)

[Electron]

Start here to learn more about towers. http://www.hamcity.com/store/pc/viewContent.asp?idpage=7

[Dave Loudin]

ant, you will have a much easier time relying on San Diego for some of your networks, especially for CBS. As Tower Guy and ghz24 implied, you're not going to see much improvement with mounting at the roofline versus going up 100 feet. Yes, tall towers get expensive!

[Electron]

I listed the North and South channels. If you list them in columns side by side you will see what is being received in one direction or the other direction. http://www.antennatv.tv , http://www.thistv.com , http://www.mynetworktv.com , http://www.myretrotv.com , http://www.cwtv.com , http://www.amgtv.tv , http://americaone.com , http://www.tr3s.com

[Electron]

Looks like the best place to put a 60 foot tower is close to the south west corner of the house at the south end of the house. Looks like there is a opening in the trees with no trees close to the house to the south east. And no trees close to the house or further away to the north west. A 60 foot tower will help clear the trees.

[ant]

Looks like the best place to put a 60 foot tower is close to the south west corner of the house at the south end of the house. Looks like there is a opening in the trees with no trees close to the house to the south east. And no trees close to the house or further away to the north west. A 60 foot tower will help clear the trees.The tower idea is not going to happen since there are risks and very expensive. I still have yet to try the the more powerful antennae in the attic and on top of the rooftops. I did borrow a slightly more powerful indoor antenna from someone. It didn't improve much as I expected (e.g., managed to get KNBC4 and KCAL9, then lost them hehe). Stay tuned...

[Dave Loudin]

I still think you will have better luck aiming at San Diego. Have you tried that with any of your antennas?

[ant]

I still think you will have better luck aiming at San Diego. Have you tried that with any of your antennas?Nothing except the front side of the house facing north with channel 31.x (NE 0.5 miles from that local transmitter/translator) and barely with KABC7.x and KTTV 11.x stations. :(

[Dave Loudin]

Looking back at your TVFool plots, you're going to have to be at 25 feet in order to get the SD stations.

[ant]

Looking back at your TVFool plots, you're going to have to be at 25 feet in order to get the SD stations.And not even HD? :(

[Dave Loudin]

SD = San Diego in this case! ;)

Go back to my recommendations to you. You need an antenna like a Winegard HD7696P or similar at 25 feet for those stations. You can only bank on the VHFs from Mt. Wilson.

When you experiment with trying to get the LA stations, do you tile the antenna up, so that it looks more towards the top of the hill?

[ant]

SD = San Diego in this case! ;)

Go back to my recommendations to you. You need an antenna like a Winegard HD7696P or similar at 25 feet for those stations. You can only bank on the VHFs from Mt. Wilson.

When you experiment with trying to get the LA stations, do you tile the antenna up, so that it looks more towards the top of the hill?Oh, haha San Diego. I thought you meant Standard Definition.

[ant]

SD = San Diego in this case! ;)

Go back to my recommendations to you. You need an antenna like a Winegard HD7696P or similar at 25 feet for those stations. You can only bank on the VHFs from Mt. Wilson.

When you experiment with trying to get the LA stations, do you tile the antenna up, so that it looks more towards the top of the hill?What are the similiar ones of Winegard HD7696P that are in local retail stores and easily returnable?

With that single pole rabbit ear antenna on the portable DTV, I had it horizontal and adjacent to the mountains and that giant hill/small mountain blocking the transmitters for KABC7 and KTTV11. For channel 31.x, I think it didn't matter since it was 0.5 miles away.

The other antenna was rabbit ears with that circular antenna in the middle that you place on the table/CRT TV/whatever flat and big.

[ant]

Here's a follow-up in trying to get OTA in my upcoming La Habra Heights, CA 90631 home which is in a difficult area.

Finally, I got a RCA ANT751R antenna in the ground level's kitchen facing the opened screen patio. The assembled antenna part (did not attach the holder part) sat on a high chair for testing facing North direction with the big hill/small mountain in the way. It actually worked decently depending on the directions (N or NW; left or east of the neighbor's big house and their backyard's small mountain/giant hill across the street). The portable ATSC DTV was able to pick up from 70 to 103 channels (it varies a lot depending on what directions and stable the signals are). It got annoying when it kept losing channels like KCBS2, KNBC4, KCAL9, KTTV11, KCOP13, etc. :(

For examples: (N)orth (right side of the neighbor's house) seems to do well with these most wanted channels: KNBC4 and KSCI/LA18. NW (left side of the neighbor's house) seems to do well with these most wanted channels: KCBS2, KABC7, and 62 (unstable). Other channels seem to be OK (forgot to record their antenna directions): KTLA5, KCOP/UPN13, KOCE50, and KLCS58. We have not put this new antenna in the attic yet facing the north direction and side in the house, but I am hoping it will do better than on the ground level.

Also, we tried a powered Philips Digital Indoor TV antenna SDV7225T/27 (big rectangular dish + a single pole rabbit ear antenna facing to the right horizontally in NE direction) which did better than a single pole rabbit ear aneanna. Its results were various depending on directrions and close to the kitchen patio door screen (glass window opened):
Adjacent to the kitchen screen door and holding this antenna above 5' from the floor/ground with wanted channels:
KNBC4 (unstable), KABC7, KCAL9, KTTV11, KCOP13, KSCI/LA18, KCET28, and 62 (unstable).
A few inches behind the kitchen screen door on a high chair with these wanted channels:
4 (N; unstable), 7 (NW), 9 (NW), 11 (N and NW), 13 (NW), 28 (N), 50 (N, unstable), 58 (unstable), 62 (unstable),

FYI, my parents refused to get a roof-top antenna since they said it was too big, complex, and ugly, and didn't want to get someone on the roof to install. However, they were OK with this indoor attic antenna. :(

We'll try more later. Hopefully, the attic will be good!

[ant]

Here's a follow-up in trying to get OTA in my upcoming La Habra Heights, CA 90631 home which is in a difficult area.

Finally, I got a RCA ANT751R antenna in the ground level's kitchen facing the opened screen patio. The assembled antenna part (did not attach the holder part) sat on a high chair for testing facing North direction with the big hill/small mountain in the way. It actually worked decently depending on the directions (N or NW; left or east of the neighbor's big house and their backyard's small mountain/giant hill across the street). The portable ATSC DTV was able to pick up from 70 to 103 channels (it varies a lot depending on what directions and stable the signals are). It got annoying when it kept losing channels like KCBS2, KNBC4, KCAL9, KTTV11, KCOP13, etc. :(
...
FYI, my parents refused to get a roof-top antenna since they said it was too big and ugly, and didn't want to get someone on the roof to install. However, they were OK with this indoor attic antenna. :(

We'll try more later. Hopefully, the attic will be good!Drats. Attic doesn't improve. Some channels are still missing like on the ground level's kitchen. I guess OTA is no good. We will be taking it down and returning it to get satellite/cable service. :(

[Dave Loudin]

Have you ever tried picking up the San Diego stations?

[ant]

Have you ever tried picking up the San Diego stations?Nothing with brief tests. RCA antenna doesn't go farther than 40 miles to SD. The distance is about 100 miles. Also, SD stations don't have the extra asian channels like L.A. stations do that my parents want.

[Dave Loudin]

Forget the mileage ratings! Your TVFool suggests otherwise. If you wanted some use of the antenna, then that would be it.

[ant]

Forget the mileage ratings! Your TVFool suggests otherwise. If you wanted some use of the antenna, then that would be it.I can use some of the antenna with L.A. stations, just not all of them. I did tell my parents to keep it for emergencies if cable/satellite TV service goes out/has problems, but they had no comments (a bad sign?). Also, they can use it for channels that aren't carried through cable/satellite providers like those substations (e.g., 31.8). :(

[ant]

Hello.

I get very few OTA channels on where I am moving to and most likely be getting cable TV, but it won't have all channels that can be fed with OTA (same for satellite services). Is it possible to merge both cable TV and OTA on a single coax cable to TVs and recorders (e.g., DVRs and computers)?

Thank you in advance. :)

[Electron]

No , No , No and No Do Not connect cable and OTA onto one coax. Run separate coax for OTA and separate coax for cable. Many of the channels that are OTA , Cable also use on the cable system , mixing the two will not produce good results. . Satellite uses different frequencies so OTA and Satellite can be on the same coax , however for the final word you will need to get with satellite system installer.

[ant]

No , No , No and No Do Not connect cable and OTA onto one coax. Run separate coax for OTA and separate coax for cable.OK and thanks. :)

[ant]

Updates!

OK, My father/pa/dad and I finally worked on this RCA ANT-751 antenna in the attic, one more time today, since its return date to Fry's Electronics is a few days away and today was the only good day to retry it.

We also worked on trying to get the multiple house rooms as well. We found the Dish's multiswitch and replaced it with an old splitter. However, we only got two rooms. We also finally got all the rooms's coax outlets working. We noticed the cables setups are messy and confusing in the attic. It seems like Dish or someone disconnected the old coax cables? We also found the best spot in the attic and hopefully, the channels will stay this way even though there are missing ones. We also brought in an old portable CRT TV, with its power AC, with a few years old Zeinth DTT900 converter box (got one with a government coupon), I ran channel scans and noted these working "stable" channels:

Old portable CRT TV + Zeinth DTT900 DTV converter box:
57-83 channels found (did two scans): KCBS2, KNBC4, KTLA5, KABC7, KCAL9, KSCI18, 22, KCET28, ION30, 31, 34, 46, 52, 56, 57, KLCS58 (soso), 62, and 63.

Portable DTV (ATSC; Digital Prism):
88 channels found (wow): KCBS2, KNBC4, KTLA5, KABC7, KCAL9, 22, 28, ION30, 31, 34, 46, 52, 56, 57 (soso), 58, and 62.

Note that I gave the channel the station code/ID names for the ones I care for.

As you can see both of them are missing the ones I care for: KTTV11 (I watch FOX's shows a lot and sports sometimes), KCOP13 (I used to watch it for its Star Trek, but don't care any more), and KOCE50 (rarely though).

I find it amusing with a Terk FDTV1a Digital Pro antenna (vertical flat one), that my father/da/pa bought from Best Buy which I did not approve [sighs], worked for these missing stations: KCAL9 and KTTV11. The catch is that this antenna has to be on the middle the kitchen floor (no furnitures yet!) facing the garage's wall with an old central air condition (AC) unit throuhg the big window doors. LOL! That makes no sense though! There's wall! Maybe reflective from the wall and/or AC? Of course, this antenna is useless for every channels for its weakness (duh, we knew that).

I wonder if there something else to try to get KTTV11 and KCOP13. Then, I really don't need cable/satellite service! :D I do need to test the channels again to be sure they are really that stable. As you noticed, some scans don't get all or missed them. I even tried forcing them like 11-1, but no signals. :(

[ant]

Updates! ...

Old portable CRT TV + Zeinth DTT900 DTV converter box:
57-83 channels found (did two scans): KCBS2, KNBC4, KTLA5, KABC7, KCAL9, KSCI18, 22, KCET28, ION30, 31, 34, 46, 52, 56, 57, KLCS58 (soso), 62, and 63.

Portable DTV (ATSC; Digital Prism):
88 channels found (wow): KCBS2, KNBC4, KTLA5, KABC7, KCAL9, 22, 28, ION30, 31, 34, 46, 52, 56, 57 (soso), 58, and 62.

Note that I gave the channel the station code/ID names for the ones I care for.

As you can see both of them are missing the ones I care for: KTTV11 (I watch FOX's shows a lot and sports sometimes), KCOP13 (I used to watch it for its Star Trek, but don't care any more), and KOCE50 (rarely though).

I find it amusing with a Terk FDTV1a Digital Pro antenna (vertical flat one), that my father/da/pa bought from Best Buy which I did not approve [sighs], worked for these missing stations: KCAL9 and KTTV11. The catch is that this antenna has to be on the middle the kitchen floor (no furnitures yet!) facing the garage's wall with an old central air condition (AC) unit throuhg the big window doors. LOL! That makes no sense though! There's wall! Maybe reflective from the wall and/or AC? Of course, this antenna is useless for every channels for its weakness (duh, we knew that).

I wonder if there something else to try to get KTTV11 and KCOP13. Then, I really don't need cable/satellite service! :D I do need to test the channels again to be sure they are really that stable. As you noticed, some scans don't get all or missed them. I even tried forcing them like 11-1, but no signals. :(I played more tonight with the same CRT TV, Zeinth converter box, and antenna setup (did not touch it). The weather was getting dark, cooler, and cloudy outside. I was curious if that made things different.

Here is the channels I noticed from about 7:45 PM PDT to about 8:35 PM PDT: KCBS2 (sometimes stable and sometimes unstable), KNBC4 (sometimes stable and unstable), KTLA5, KABC7, KCAL9, KSCI18, 22, KCET28, ION30, 31, 34, 40 (stable and unstable), 46, 52, 54, 56, KLCS58 (stable and unstable), 62, and 63. I noticed the problematic channels can be stable for a few minutes and then unstable for a few minutes. Basically, they come and go. KTTV11 and KCOP13 never showed up. Rescanning twice showed different results: 65 channels and 76 channels. :(

[ant]

Does anyone know of smaller antennae since 100" YA-1713 and 60" Y5-7-13 antennae are a bit big for a small/crowded house attic and from local retail stores (not order online)?

[ant]

Does anyone know of smaller antennae since 100" YA-1713 and 60" Y5-7-13 antennae are a bit big for a small/crowded house attic and from local retail stores (not order online)?Also, does anyone know of a good antenna rotator since some channels are stronger depending on what direction (left and right of the opposite neighbor's house, but this will suck when we share the same antenna and want to watch specific channels at the same time). Of course from the local retail stores that let us return it.

[phone man]

Ant, You've been given lots of good advice over the last few months. Sorry your Dad won't allow a rooftop antenna. It was your best chance for decent OTA reception. Attic and ground level antennas just won't do the job. Good luck!

[ant]

Ant, You've been given so much good advice here over the last few months. Until you're willing or able to install an antenna outdoors and high enough to make good use of the signal available at your location, you're just spinning your wheels trying to get something to work where the signal is poor like the attic or the ground level kitchen. You have to realize the importance of antenna location. There's no way around it!I wished I could put it up on the attic even by myself silently (disabled so I can't). My parents just won't budged to the idea since it is ugly and big to them (don't see the problem with that). :(

BTW, signals were worse lately. About 30-40 channels. :(

[phone man]

Sorry if I sounded harsh. I thought you were just being stubborn then I read that your parents said NO to a rooftop antenna. That restriction and your physical limitations certainly make antenna placement a challenge.
Keep in mind as you experiment with antenna location, it's difficult sometimes to distinguish between naturally occuring signal fluctuation and a change in how your antenna is aimed or positioned. This is especially true where signals are weak to begin with.

[ant]

Sorry if I sounded harsh. I thought you were just being stubborn then I read that your parents said NO to a rooftop antenna. That restriction and your physical limitations certainly make antenna placement a challenge.
Keep in mind as you experiment with antenna location, it's difficult sometimes to distinguish between naturally occuring signal fluctuation and a change in how your antenna is aimed or positioned. This is especially true where signals are weak to begin with.Thanks and it's OK. I didn't want to reveal my personal issues, but I was fed up and angry.

Yeah, we're about to give up and just order cable TV next month/July since OTA feeds got way worse this week (30-40 channels scanned, and mostly channel numbers from KCET's 28 and up) and the weekend. It's weird because weather isn't different like a few weeks ago. It is just warmer lately due to upcoming hot summer.

I kept nagging/bugging my stubborn folks/parents that everybody, on the Internet (even showed the replies!), say to put a big roof top powerful antenna on top of this new house but noooooooooo they refused! Who cares if the antenna is big and ugly on the pretty house! Gah! I wished I could do it secretly myself! I told them that they will have to pay for expensive cable TV (lower HD picture quality too) then (not me). [sighs] :( Bah, we wasted many hours and over $80 on this RCA rooftop antenna and can't even return it to Fry's Electronics since it has been after 30 days. :(

[phone man]

Bah, we wasted many hours and over $80 on this RCA rooftop antenna and can't even return it to Fry's Electronics since it has been after 30 days. :(

That's what Craigslist is for!

[ant]

That's what Craigslist is for!Bah... :P

Hmm, I think I will try it in front of the garage and backyard on the highest point of its hill (taller than the roof) this weekend.

--

5/17/2012:

I quickly checked again this morning to see if it improved compared to recently, Zeinth converter box scanned/found 58 (more than 40 on Monday night) channels (2, 4, 22 (somewhat watchable), 28, 30, 31, 46, 52, and 62 (soso). Others were bad or not lockable to get the feeds (only detected). Two converter box's EZ scans failed to get more (cool feature to use).

--


5/19/2012 afternoon updates: We were still unable to get attic feed (e.g., channels 2, 4, 18, and higher).

However, I did take the RCA antenna and the portable 12" ATSC DTV outside to explore. Outside in the front yard was a good area (still facing west or east of the neighbor's big house across the street). Out on the backyard's high hill areas did not do well. I think the house's roof is interferring the OTA feed or something. I was able to get the best spot back in the kitchen on the ground level and has to be excactly in the middle of that place. I managed to get all the local channels (all the ones we want!) with 108 and 111 scanned! Ha! KCBS was the most iffy, but watchable. I don't know how they will do at night, raining weather, etc. Of course, my folks still refuse to put the antenna on the roof. Not even outside too which I proved to them. Ugh! I did tell my folks that the attic was a bad area because of all the metals, crowded walls, etc. :(

At least the antenna still has use, but it is in the specific areas. Also, I was able to see that channel 31 translator antenna from a backyard high hill area. :)

[ant]

I'm back, but I have good news? I pretty much gave up, but my father/dad/pa was willing to try another antenna. So he agreed to try that huge and heavy ChannelMaster/CM 4228HD from the local Fry's Electronics store. I didn't help to set up and test this time though since I was too BUSY with computer job/work, other things, and didn't care anymore since my folks refused to put the frakkin' antenna on the roof.

Amazingly, it worked very well! The portable HDTV found about 111 channels including analog and radio ones (12-0, 21-0, 27-0, 30-100 (Airbox), 30-101 (Starz), 30-200 (NFL), 30-209 (GoITV), 30-300 (Telefor), 30-301 (CineMax), 30-302 (Pasions), and 57-0. Weird! Also, this was on an paint canvas as a temporary holder in the house's kitchen facing the small mountain/giant hills blocking Mount/Mt. Wilson's transmitters views! However, KCBS2 was still iffy/not perfect again.

Oh he also had to buy a cheap Winegard Flatwave antenna. Ugh!!! Obviously, it didn't work well. :P I am just more surprised that CM 4228HD worked well.

However, I am still suspicious. That RCA antenna worked well at work first too even in the attic. Then, it went to crap until I tried it in the kitchen and outside in the front of the house. I really wished they would put one of them on the roof already! No way they would leave that huge thing in the kitchen facing the patio window to the north. LOL!

FYI, I added new old photos. into http://zimage.com/~ant/MiCasa2/ ...

[ant]

OK, I am back again. Today's early afternoon hours were rough and somewhat disappointing. :( I think today's soft winds were messing up my OTA feeds there. I can't imagine was hard winds would do! I don't remember any winds on Wednesday night too.

With that new CM 4228HD antenna outside on the non-slope patio in front of the kitchen window instead of the slope grass I did with RCA ANT751 antenna almost a couple months ago, I got scanned channels from over 80 to 104 channels in the same area. I tried tilting a little back/front, changing angles a little, etc. Also, this was about 5' (CM 4228HD's center where the coax cable connector is) above the ground like my height. Note that the garage's left wall, AC unit, cement patio, low wall, and low metal gate door were still around it even far. I wanted to try it on the slope grass area, but the wooden easel (finally figured out what those art painting canvas holders were called) would be unable to hold the heavy and big CM 4228HD antenna (I had a hard time lifting both items separately due to my disabilities and height!). From what I saw, I had some issues with KCBS2, KTLA5, KCAL9, etc. Nuts. Just for kicks, I went to the grass slope front lawn to try RCA ANT751 antenna over my head (5') again and noticed less channels. What the frak? :(

Also, my father/dad/pa was willing to put an antenna outside in front of the kitchen outside mounted under the roof. Ugh! NO! This will not work well because I tested this already by myself with RCA ANT751 antenna near the walls, AC unit, wall, etc.! The best spot is in the open area like above the tiled brick roof! We got into a verbal fight too. He said it is too dangerous up there. Well, get someone who can then even though I could search for someone! Argh!! I gave up and let him try it in the wall corner adjacent to the garage and kitchen's sink window sides. It didn't get all the channels we wanted, and some were unstable like KCET28. Well, DUH! I knew that already from my previous tests! It looks like he will get a very long coax cable (25'?), from a local Radio Shack store, to connect from the attic with previous owners' coax cable setups with his Dish service, to the front to this mounted antenna (most likely RCA ANT751). :(

Also, I finally took my old 2005's DB2 bowtie antenna. Amazingly, it didn't too bad. It got many channels we wanted, but some were not receivable and stable. I'd rank this one under RCA 751 antenna. This was in the outside corner spot and in the kitchen as well.

I updated http://zimage.com/~ant/MiCasa2/FormerOwnerKitchen1.jpg to show the locations.

Oh another bad day was he dropped the portable DTV. It still mostly works, but the channel+ button (next channel) is busted (mostly doesn't respond OR thinks it wants to rescan for channels which is the right button). Also, he got a big leg cut on the short ladder from the shrubs when fiddling with an antenna on the corner near AC unit, garage, and kitchen sink's window. He also said he is going to return that huge CM antenna to Fry's Electronics (hope they don't ban him like Best Buy did to that one guy a few months ago) too. Um, he was the one who wanted to try it even though I was surprised by its feed results! [sighs] :(

[GroundUrMast]

If we go back to your TV Fool report, http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86cb35bdb459 you'll notice that there is a mix of both UHF and VHF channels listed.

The signal strength is low which indicates the need for a large, high gain antenna which has both UHF and VHF capability. @Dave Loudin's post http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=20704&postcount=51 addresses this in a rather comprehensive manner.

If you are limited to using an ANT-751 and a CM4228, try combining the two using a UVSJ. you'll get fairly good UHF performance and at least some VHF. The CM4228 has little VHF capability. The ANT-751 has some UHF capability but not nearly as much as the CM4228.

[ant]

If we go back to your TV Fool report, http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86cb35bdb459 you'll notice that there is a mix of both UHF and VHF channels listed.

The signal strength is low which indicates the need for a large, high gain antenna which has both UHF and VHF capability. @Dave Loudin's post http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=20704&postcount=51 addresses this in a rather comprehensive manner.

If you are limited to using an ANT-751 and a CM4228, try combining the two using a UVSJ. you'll get fairly good UHF performance and at least some VHF. The CM4228 has little VHF capability. The ANT-751 has some UHF capability but not nearly as much as the CM4228.Would combined RCA ANT751 and CM4228 still need to be put outside on the roofs? If so, then the problem is my folks don't want them on the roof and in the kitchen behind the window patio door. They don't mind them in the attic, but the attic did not work well due to too many interferences (metal/mesh parts in the walls?) with various antennae. :( And they don't want that CM antenna anymore for being too big and heavy [why did he buy it then?]. :(

[GroundUrMast]

Your best hope for receiving the maximum possible stations involves mounting outside, high, clear of obstructions. I understand there are several reasons that may not be a viable option in your case. You and your family are able to understand those limiting factors far better than I.

That said, I'm suggesting that if there is an acceptable mounting location, you compare the list of received channels, when using the CM4228 and then the ANT-751. I think you'll find that the CM4228 receives channels the ANT-751 can not, and that the ANT-751 in turn, receives signals the CM4228 does not. If that's the case, combining the two would provide the more viewing options than either lone antenna could.

You had posted a photo of the back yard. How high was the antenna off the ground when you tested there? There are 10' mast sections available, I've even used the 'top rail' designed for chain-link fence systems... (got it @ Home Depot as I recall) If you have an acceptable location in the back yard, that can accommodate an elevated antenna (or two) you may find that just a few feet higher in the air gets signals that were unavailable the last time you tried in that area. Tripods intended for roof mounting can be used in ground mounted applications also.

[ant]

Your best hope for receiving the maximum possible stations involves mounting outside, high, clear of obstructions. I understand there are several reasons that may not be a viable option in your case. You and your family are able to understand those limiting factors far better than I.

That said, I'm suggesting that if there is an acceptable mounting location, you compare the list of received channels, when using the CM4228 and then the ANT-751. I think you'll find that the CM4228 receives channels the ANT-751 can not, and that the ANT-751 in turn, receives signals the CM4228 does not. If that's the case, combining the two would provide the more viewing options than either lone antenna could.

You had posted a photo of the back yard. How high was the antenna off the ground when you tested there? There are 10' mast sections available, I've even used the 'top rail' designed for chain-link fence systems... (got it @ Home Depot as I recall) If you have an acceptable location in the back yard, that can accommodate an elevated antenna (or two) you may find that just a few feet higher in the air gets signals that were unavailable the last time you tried in that area. Tripods intended for roof mounting can be used in ground mounted applications also.The only mounting spots they approve is in the attic or outside under a tiled roof in front of the kitchen, hidden. They just don't want them outside to make their house ugly. For me, I don't care about the looks! :(

The sloped hill backyard was above the roof for sure when I was standing up with that RCA ANT751 antenna with a portable ATSC HDTV. I am about 5' so it was over my head to move around and test. I thought it was weird/odd that it did poorly up there. I guess the house's tiled roof was reflecting badly? Or maybe the trees behind me and on the sides? I would expect it to be better than the front yard!

[GroundUrMast]

Sadly, the roof construction produces too much loss and/or signal reflection.

Could you experiment with a 'long-wire' antenna? http://www.iw5edi.com/ham-radio/?instructions-for-putting-up-a-long-wire-antenna,116 If constructed from the right material it can be close to invisible. I'm straining hard here... trying to think of some solution given nearly impossible limitations.

[ant]

Sadly, the roof construction produces too much loss and/or signal reflection.

Could you experiment with a 'long-wire' antenna? http://www.iw5edi.com/ham-radio/?instructions-for-putting-up-a-long-wire-antenna,116 If constructed from the right material it can be close to invisible. I'm straining hard here... trying to think of some solution given nearly impossible limitations.Is it because of the tiled roofs or something else like in the walls like those metals, meshes, etc. that people mentioned? That looks complex. We're not constructive people. The antennae were complex enough. ;) Do they have one that already exists from local retail stores?

[GroundUrMast]

Tile, concrete, stucco and similar materials are to one degree or another, opaque to RF.

A long-wire antenna is one of the oldest types of antenna designs... from the early days of radio. There are some commercially produced kits intended for the HAM radio market but I would go to the hardware store myself...

Some mechanical aptitude (or at least interest in building things from scratch) would be needed. (There's no shame in knowing your gifts, talents and limits. If you honestly know such a project is more than you should take on, you're a better person than someone who is unwilling to be honest with themselves.)

[ant]

Tile, concrete, stucco and similar materials are to one degree or another, opaque to RF.

A long-wire antenna is one of the oldest types of antenna designs... from the early days of radio. There are some commercially produced kits intended for the HAM radio market but I would go to the hardware store myself...

Some mechanical aptitude (or at least interest in building things from scratch) would be needed. (There's no shame in knowing your gifts, talents and limits. If you honestly know such a project is more than you should take on, you're a better person than someone who is unwilling to be honest with themselves.)Yeah, I would have to find someone to do it. I think it is just way easier just to put it on the roof which my parents refuse. [sighs]

[ant]

I forgot to share this information over the weekend. I only seem to mention them in my newsgroup post. Oops! These will probably add support that I won't be able to get OTA fully:

Elevations according to Google Earth (GE):
1. About 956 ft. in the front yard and kitchen's ground levels where the best feeds are.
2. Highest blocked hill/small mountain to Mt. Wilson in a straight line is about 1,254 feet (never knew GE had this feature!):
http://i.imgur.com/A6yEe.gif ... So there's about a 300 feet height difference.

FYI after 6/26/2012 8:50 AM PDT for about 15 minutes: I was at the other house again. I noticed that RCA ANT751 antenna was remounted on the kitchen and garage corner facing NW (can't go north more due to the garage wall like I did in front of the kitchen patio, grassy lawn, and inside the kitchen). Here is what Zeinth converter box picked up (60-63 channels scanned multiple times [3 were added after the first one from scratch]): 2 (actually stable!), 4, 7, 9, 11, 13, 18 (unstable), 22, 31, 44, (unstable), 50, 54, 57, and 58 (unstable). Also, no winds I felt outside like on Sunday's early afternoon. I also CM 4228HD antenna has not been disassembled to be returned to Fry's yet.

[ant]

25 ft.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86cb35bdb459

40 ft.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86ddb20485e8

Still bad. It looks like I need to be at least 188 ft. have green color for the channels/stations I want. :(Crap. I just realized I entered the wrong zip code. Updated URLs:

5 ft. height entered: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1349e1250c5c04
10 ft. height entered: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d134986774edc54
25 ft. height entered: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1349a677fb8dec
40 ft. height entered: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d134957beda0fe2

Not much different. :P

[ant]

More attempts done to get better OTA feeds at the new house with photos. tonight:
http://zimage.com/~ant/MiCasa2/RCAandCMantennaeAboveKitchenNonPatioWindow1.jpg
http://zimage.com/~ant/MiCasa2/RCAandCMantennaeAboveKitchenNonPatioWindow2.jpg
CM 4228HD antenna managed to get over 100 channels again tonight and recently in this position. RCA ANT751 was OK tonight, but we moved it to where CM was sitting (took it down) and it got decent (70, 107, and 111 [big jumps in numbers]). We are trying to get the unreturnable RCA ANT751 in a better spot so we can return that huge CM antenna before its return date arrives. No winds tonight. I am still suspicious since a few channels are sometimes unstable and/or unlockable like KSCI18, KTLA5, KABC7, etc.). This was after 8 PM PDT.

Questions: Does it matter what vertical angle and RCA ANT751 supposed to be upside down or not for optimal feeds? It doesn't seem to matter? I know someone said CM one should be tilted back about 10% degrees or so, but does that apply to RCA ANT751 too? Is it worth trying to see if combining both antennae give the best feeds?

[GroundUrMast]

Tilting an antenna a few degrees can help in some situations. Don't expect dramatic results, just fine tuning the last bit of performance available.

Most antennas will perform the same if you turn them upside down, so long as they are still pointed toward the transmitter. A few designs may collect water if mounted upside down, be careful to avoid that situation.

[ant]

Tilting an antenna a few degrees can help in some situations. Don't expect dramatic results, just fine tuning the last bit of performance available.

Most antennas will perform the same if you turn them upside down, so long as they are still pointed toward the transmitter. A few designs may collect water if mounted upside down, be careful to avoid that situation.Thanks! :)

[ant]

More again today. It looks like we're going to keep that CM 4228HD antenna since we still failed with RCA ANT751. Also, I took and added several more photo(graph)s to share: http://zimage.com/~ant/MiCasa2/ ...

Both Zeinth DTT900 converter box and Digital Prism portable DTV can get about 110 channels (including KFMB's channel 8 and KGTV's channel 10) in the best room -- still need to fix the other rooms with weaker signals [lose about 30 channels and more unstable feeds [probably need preamps or new coax cables from the previous owners with their Dish service]). We'll see how long "stable" OTA feeds this will last. The weather was nice and no winds. I hope it doesn't get worse than what we got! :P

I also discovered that Digital Prism loves to pick up those encrypted Airbox (channel 30-xxx) and analog (e.g., snowy channel 12) channels. Zeinth never shows those, but it did show a few radio channels (on screen, it says audio only).

[ant]

...Questions: Does it matter what vertical angle and RCA ANT751 supposed to be upside down or not for optimal feeds? It doesn't seem to matter? I know someone said CM one should be tilted back about 10% degrees or so, but does that apply to RCA ANT751 too?...FYI from RCA on its ANT751 antenna:

"... Response Via Email(Trudy Holden) - 07/09/2012 04:41 PM
Dear Ant,

The mount bracket and pipe can be arc down or up.

There is a top and bottom for the antenna. The elements snap out and lock into position.

The top elements mounts are designed to work with gravity to lock and support the element. The top elements mounts/locks are plastic and to take the load from ice build up and birds landing on the element.

The bottom elements mounts/locks are designed to take the down load, most of them are metal.

If the antenna is mounted upside down, the top elements would lock and be supported and would break off over time.

Even indoors be sure the top is up..."

[ant]

Just a follow-up that a possible resolved issue with my OTA in the new house. http://zimage.com/~ant/MiCasa2/ for the current photos. (will be removing them later for disk spaces and bandwidth) of CM 4228HD antenna in the front yard. Previous owners' internal coax cables are still there and used for OTA. Two new Samsung HDTVs (20" and 55") were added to the family room and bedroom recently. Old CRT+Zeinth converter box moved to my folks' bedroom. Couple non-screw coax cables were replaced between coax cable outlets and the new HDTVs, but we used those before! Old CRTV uses the screw types. Attic uses General Electrics (GE) four-ways (RMS' two way didn't make any differences from testings so it can't be the splitters) splitter.

I hope OTA stays stable and don't need to redo the coax cables inside the walls, get a pre-amp, etc.! I am still suspicious... :P

[ant]

I'm back again, but with good and bad news... I went back this to the new place early morning. OTA was still good with an overcast cold weather (nice change from the crazy hot summer weather lately), it was about 90 to 100 channels (similiar like before). It was also when cable technicians came over to hook up cable stuff (yes that $89.99 bundled promotion for a year) in case OTA doesn't work in the future. We can always remove products and features if needed.

The bad news is my room and folks' master bedroom had to be sarcified for cable and lose OTA since my folks did not want to add another cable line. It would also be a lot of work (technician only had about 1.5 hours before the next appointment). I tried to argue that I still wanted OTA, but I lost awesome OTA battle. :( The other two rooms were not touched for its OTA. While setting up the cable line in my room from the attic (disconnected one from a splitter for OTA), the cable technician found another hidden dusty splitter in my room behind the cable outlet cover. Woah. We totally missed that during that OTA madness! It was splitted into my room and the master bedroom. That's crazy.

After he set it up, I went to test the OTA rooms and they even got more channels (120 and 122 each room! That was the highest ever!)!! Wow. Bummer I will be on cable TV. I am so spoiled by the free price and picture clarity with OTA. Cable digital isn't impressive on a new 22" HDTV. Or maybe it is the composite cables that the technician used (didn't even give me HDMI cables!). Oh well, my folks will be paying for the crazy high cable prices and enjoying their OTA channels. :( At least Internet is still fast with its standard 10/1. That's all I care for. ;)