Need antenna advice

[chumster]

Hi,

I put up a channel master 4228 antenna with pre-amp I had sitting around and can get only one channel WTAJ 10.1 and when I turn off the pre-amp I get nothing at all. I am using a magnavox converter box as well. My TVfool map shows other stations real close to 10.1, but I cant get them. Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks!


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbe9bdf47f62d

[Billiam]

How did you install the antenna? On the roof? Are nearby structures blocking the signal? What kind of cable are you using? What kind of pre amp?

[chumster]

How did you install the antenna? On the roof? Are nearby structures blocking the signal? What kind of cable are you using? What kind of pre amp?

Hi,

It is installed on the side of the house 20 feet above the ground and 5ft above the roof. There are no near structures. I am using the standard round cable wire I bought from a dealer. The pre-amp is a channel master the power supply says 0747. Channel 10 comes in crystal clear but nothing from the towers right near 10.

[mtownsend]

My initial reaction is that the signals should be strong enough (according to your report) to be picked up easily by an outdoor 4228, and especially if there's a good pre-amp also being used.



Here are a few comments/suggestions:



1) Make sure the analyzed location is accurate for your house. Sometimes, address lookups are not all that accurate (varies from one city to the next depending on the quality of the database sources). You can check the accuracy by using the Interactive Maps tool (here (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90)). It will show a map after you enter your address and if the location is not quite right, you can drag-n-drop the pointer until it's right on top of your house. If the initial address lookup is significantly different than your true location, there might be big differences in the analysis results.

You can also play what-if games with antenna heights by changing the value in the height field (everything is automatically recomputed).



2) Pre-amps cannot be simply "turned off". If you disconnect the power supply (or unplug it), but leave the pre-amp inline, then the amp becomes a dead circuit that doesn't allow anything though. An unpowered pre-amp does NOT act like a "pass thru" device. You must physically remove the amp in order to test the antenna by itself.



3) Have you tried turning the antenna in a few different directions? By experimenting with antenna aim, you might be able to find a better "sweet spot" that picks up a cleaner signal on more of the channels.

[chumster]

Thanks for the info. I will take the antenna down this weekend and remove the pre-amp and try other locations. A friend has ordered a new antenna from lava HD-2605 and is going to let me try it just incase my antenna isnt working. The signals actually look better since I used that tool you gave me for right at my location. I will let you know what happens this weekend.




My initial reaction is that the signals should be strong enough (according to your report) to be picked up easily by an outdoor 4228, and especially if there's a good pre-amp also being used.



Here are a few comments/suggestions:



1) Make sure the analyzed location is accurate for your house. Sometimes, address lookups are not all that accurate (varies from one city to the next depending on the quality of the database sources). You can check the accuracy by using the Interactive Maps tool (here (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90)). It will show a map after you enter your address and if the location is not quite right, you can drag-n-drop the pointer until it's right on top of your house. If the initial address lookup is significantly different than your true location, there might be big differences in the analysis results.

You can also play what-if games with antenna heights by changing the value in the height field (everything is automatically recomputed).



2) Pre-amps cannot be simply "turned off". If you disconnect the power supply (or unplug it), but leave the pre-amp inline, then the amp becomes a dead circuit that doesn't allow anything though. An unpowered pre-amp does NOT act like a "pass thru" device. You must physically remove the amp in order to test the antenna by itself.



3) Have you tried turning the antenna in a few different directions? By experimenting with antenna aim, you might be able to find a better "sweet spot" that picks up a cleaner signal on more of the channels.

[mtownsend]

Just FYI, the Lava antennas are very cheaply made and are poor performing antennas. They might work if you have strong signals to begin with, but many people have had bad experiences with these antennas. There have been multiple reports that the built-in rotator dies after about 1 year. The antenna itself is physically too small to have much raw gain, so it's of very little help when there are marginally receivable channels.

[chumster]

Thanks again for the info. He purchased it from amazon so if it doesnt work he can send it back.

[chumster]

Well I am defeated. We spent the day trying to get better signal, but no luck. The 4228 pulled in a signal of 20 for WTAJ, and the cheap lava pulled in a 58 but nothing else. I had one glimpse of channel 47, but could not pull it in. So everything I bought from amazon is going back. The cable company offers the limited package for $19.95 a month so that still beats paying $60.00 a month to dish network. :o



Just FYI, the Lava antennas are very cheaply made and are poor performing antennas. They might work if you have strong signals to begin with, but many people have had bad experiences with these antennas. There have been multiple reports that the built-in rotator dies after about 1 year. The antenna itself is physically too small to have much raw gain, so it's of very little help when there are marginally receivable channels.

[mtownsend]

Sorry to hear that.

The 4228 is a very powerful antenna that lots of people use with great success. I hope your frustration was not all caused by something silly like a bad connector (been known to happen), bad cable, or bad converter box.

[chumster]

Actually I was thinking about trying a new converter box. The equipment is new and the picture I get is flawless. The box I am using is a walmart magnavox cut made by funai. What would be a good box to try I can purchase from amazon? Everyone tells me the same that I sould be getting more channels.



Sorry to hear that.

The 4228 is a very powerful antenna that lots of people use with great success. I hope your frustration was not all caused by something silly like a bad connector (been known to happen), bad cable, or bad converter box.

[Billiam]

Don't give up the ship just yet. I also tried the CB 4228 and Antennacraft U8000 mounted on my roof at my location and they didn't work very well at all. In fact, the CB4221HD is outperforming both while sitting in my living room some 35 miles from the nearest signals and WITHOUT a pre amp.

My guess is that you have a problem with multipath just like I do. Try something like the Antennacraft MXU59 with a Titan 7777 pre amp from Channel Bastard. Or if you have a few more bux to spend look at the Antennas Direct 91XG. I use both of these antennas at my location and I am getting around 80 to 90% signal strength on all my channels in yellow and around 60 to 80% on average on a red signal showing a weak 2 edge signal with a strength of around 6 db. My guess is that either of these antennas with that pre amp will give you at least the top four channels on your TV Fool report.

[chumster]

Ok, I purchased the 91XG for $70 off amazon free shipping. This way if it dont work they will take it back. When you mean multipath are you talking about the towers being close? Because I took notice that 3 are on top of each other. Now I will sit back and wait. Thanks for the info!

[Billiam]

Ok, I purchased the 91XG for $70 off amazon free shipping. This way if it dont work they will take it back. When you mean multipath are you talking about the towers being close? Because I took notice that 3 are on top of each other. Now I will sit back and wait. Thanks for the info!

The 91xg is a good antenna. You will have to assemble it though you can get help from Antennas Direct if need be. I've found their CS department to be very useful in times of need.

Multipath is created when the signal from a station bounces off objects such as large buildings, mountains or hills and trees. I think you are in PA which is a hilly and mountainous state. Thus, you will not have a very clean Line of Site path to your towers. 1 edge and 2 edge signals are being received indirectly from the tower via another path unlike a LOS or Line of Sight signal which has a straight path from the tower to the receiving antenna.

I'd also get a better pre amp. It is very possible that thing no longer works right and is actually causing you to lose signal. The 7777 should work fine.

[chumster]

The pre-amp I have is the Channel Master 7775 Titan2. It seems to work fine but time will tell when I get the new antenna. Thanks

[chumster]

Ok, I got the 91XG today and installed it. I now get a crystal clear channel 10 and channel 47 so I picked up a channel. When I scan for channels the converter box stalls 4 times when scanning. Twice a channel found light comes on and twice not. So now I am going to hook up a friends digital TV tomorrow and see what I can get. I figure its the other 2 strong channels on my TVfool page. Something tells me the converter box is trouble.



Don't give up the ship just yet. I also tried the CB 4228 and Antennacraft U8000 mounted on my roof at my location and they didn't work very well at all. In fact, the CB4221HD is outperforming both while sitting in my living room some 35 miles from the nearest signals and WITHOUT a pre amp.

My guess is that you have a problem with multipath just like I do. Try something like the Antennacraft MXU59 with a Titan 7777 pre amp from Channel Bastard. Or if you have a few more bux to spend look at the Antennas Direct 91XG. I use both of these antennas at my location and I am getting around 80 to 90% signal strength on all my channels in yellow and around 60 to 80% on average on a red signal showing a weak 2 edge signal with a strength of around 6 db. My guess is that either of these antennas with that pre amp will give you at least the top four channels on your TV Fool report.

[No static at all]

Do you have the front of the antenna tilted up slightly? I have found this quite helpful in fringe/mountainous areas.

Did you try aiming the antenna towards 287 degrees to see if NBC 6 is available? You can enter channels manually on the Magnavox converter by entering the real RF channel # (34 for NBC 6) & it will find the channel & enter it into the memory if strong enough.

I have tested a few of the Magnavox converters & had excellent results in both deep fringe & metropolitan areas. They have worked just as well as the Zenith, Zinwell & Channel Master models.

[chumster]

Hi,

No I dont have it tilted, but I can with this model. I will try to tilt it tomorrow. When I enter the RF channel it says scanning and then no signal. I am going to try the digital tv first and see what happens. I did point towards WJAC and the converter pauses but thats all.


Do you have the front of the antenna tilted up slightly? I have found this quite helpful in fringe/mountainous areas.

Did you try aiming the antenna towards 287 degrees to see if NBC 6 is available? You can enter channels manually on the Magnavox converter by entering the real RF channel # (34 for NBC 6) & it will find the channel & enter it into the memory if strong enough.

I have tested a few of the Magnavox converters & had excellent results in both deep fringe & metropolitan areas. They have worked just as well as the Zenith, Zinwell & Channel Master models.

[No static at all]

Yeah, It never hurts to try another tuner to see if there are any differences.

I recently put up a 91XG at a friends house & with a few hours of slight height/tilt adjustments, reception is outstanding. We had previously tried the original CM 4428 & Winegard HD8800 with so-so results. We also switched from a CM7777 preamp to a Winegard AP 4800 (UHF only) & noticed a slight improvement in reliability as well.

One other question; how close is the preamp module to the antenna?

[chumster]

The pre-amp module is about 12-15 inches below the antenna. Should I have it closer?



Yeah, It never hurts to try another tuner to see if there are any differences.

I recently put up a 91XG at a friends house & with a few hours of slight height/tilt adjustments, reception is outstanding. We had previously tried the original CM 4428 & Winegard HD8800 with so-so results. We also switched from a CM7777 preamp to a Winegard AP 4800 (UHF only) & noticed a slight improvement in reliability as well.

One other question; how close is the preamp module to the antenna?

[No static at all]

The pre-amp module is about 12-15 inches below the antenna. Should I have it closer?No, even a few feet is fine!!

[chumster]

Ok guys I want to send out a BIG thank you for all the information. I hooked up the digital tv and bingo I hit the jackpot. It was the converter box, but the new antenna that Billiam suggested is working great. My sister cant believe the quality is better than on dish network. Now all I need to do is ground it and add a rotor. Any suggestions on a rotor? Here is the list of channels I got:

3.1 WPSU pbs
3.2 WPSU create pbs
3.3 WPSU world pbs
6.1 WJAC nbc
6.2 RTV
10.1 WTAJ cbs
23.1 WATM abc
23.2 WATM abc
23.3 WWCP fox
29.1 WHVL
29.2 WHVLa
47.1 Cornerstone

I cant a the CW, but they are supposed to put in a tower closer to Johnstown since the Pittsburgh CW serves our area as well. I am VERY pleased.

[Billiam]

You can't go wrong with either the 91xg or MXU59 in a multipath environment. I am very pleased with both of these models.

I just ordered the Centronicks AR500XL. Another guy that post here has recommended it and I think that will be adequate for the antenna that you are using.


Ok guys I want to send out a BIG thank you for all the information. I hooked up the digital tv and bingo I hit the jackpot. It was the converter box, but the new antenna that Billiam suggested is working great. My sister cant believe the quality is better than on dish network. Now all I need to do is ground it and add a rotor. Any suggestions on a rotor? Here is the list of channels I got:

3.1 WPSU pbs
3.2 WPSU create pbs
3.3 WPSU world pbs
6.1 WJAC nbc
6.2 RTV
10.1 WTAJ cbs
23.1 WATM abc
23.2 WATM abc
23.3 WWCP fox
29.1 WHVL
29.2 WHVLa
47.1 Cornerstone

I cant a the CW, but they are supposed to put in a tower closer to Johnstown since the Pittsburgh CW serves our area as well. I am VERY pleased.

[Dave Loudin]

3.1 WPSU pbs
3.2 WPSU create pbs
3.3 WPSU world pbs
6.1 WJAC nbc
6.2 RTV
10.1 WTAJ cbs
23.1 WATM abc
23.2 WATM abc
23.3 WWCP fox
29.1 WHVL
29.2 WHVLa
47.1 Cornerstone


Wow! WPSU (NM of -12) and WHVL-LD (NM of -16) are great catches! To translate this into real channels, that would be:

15 WPSU
22 WJAC (repeater)
24 WATM
27 WHVL-LD
32 WTAJ
46 WKBS

[chumster]

Do I need special wire for the rotor?


You can't go wrong with either the 91xg or MXU59 in a multipath environment. I am very pleased with both of these models.

I just ordered the Centronicks AR500XL. Another guy that post here has recommended it and I think that will be adequate for the antenna that you are using.

[Billiam]

Standard rotor cable should be fine. 3 conductor wire I think is what works for most rotors. The Centronics uses 3 conductor wire.

[chumster]

Thanks again for the information. I want to make sure I understand the grounding procedure. I am going to order a 4ft copper grounding rod, a grounding block, and #10 copper wire. is that all I need? I want to make sure before I place my order. Thanks again!


Standard rotor cable should be fine. 3 conductor wire I think is what works for most rotors. The Centronics uses 3 conductor wire.

[Billiam]

Thanks again for the information. I want to make sure I understand the grounding procedure. I am going to order a 4ft copper grounding rod, a grounding block, and #10 copper wire. is that all I need? I want to make sure before I place my order. Thanks again!

Best to consult a local electrician that is up on your local building codes.

I do know this. You should use 6 or maybe 8 gauge wire and best to use a 8 foot copper rod for the ground.