Reception while camping

[tntsmith]

We are looking to receive at least one local channel while camping in a remote location in Wisconsin. We have a travel trailer with a Delta antenna on the roof. It has a power plus booster amplifier. We tried the reception at our house and received many channels with great reception. Tried reception at the camp site and it appears to find a few channels but when scanning is done it says "no Signal". We are guessing we need a different antenna but we aren't sure what kind.

Thank you for any advice you can give.


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbe73937d3d89

[Dave Loudin]

Beware using addresses in rural areas - sometimes the interpretation from the 911 grid ends up off a block or two, which can affect the report. Try using the "start maps" option - drag the pointer for receive location to where it should be, plus enter the correct antenna height.

Based on the report you linked to, you are pretty much out of luck. The column to pay attention to is the "NM", or noise margin figure. You need to end up with a 0 or better to guarantee a lock, and having a figure better than +10 will protect against fading. Unless the antenna you have has 10dB or so of gain at VHF or at least positive gain at UHF, you won't lock on anything.

[tntsmith]

OK, used the start maps option and moved the pointer to where we are located on the property.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbec3a4afec24

[teleview]

The reception of Tv at the cordinates location looks good to me. . More information about the 'Delta' antenna please. Like manufacture and model number would be nice. I am 60 years old and have been doing Tv antennas for most of those 60 years so lets watch some Tv. Tell me some more about the location , is it some what flat open land , as it is called a marsh. Is the location up aginst a high ridge and what about trees? Any trees close by that can block reception? So would need to get the antenna above the trees. . Is the Tv antenna busted up and broken? . With your situation the Tv antenna needs to be in the clear of close by obstructions , so thinking in terms of raising 'a' antenna so as to clear obstructions is the way to think. . Is the camping location like a lot of a big size or a small size , tell me about the camping area and surrounding areas.

[tntsmith]

The antenna is Model #15200, Delta (Braund Manufacturing Company). It is mounted on top of our travel trailer with a rotary dial inside. Also has a power booster amplifier. We tried the reception at our house before taking the trailer to our land and it worked just fine. I'm guessing this is too small of an antenna for the area. We have 2-1/2 acres of land that we parked our camper on. Of course we picked a nice spot in the trees (I thought that might be part of the issue). The land is flat with oak trees and some open areas on the property. Do we have options of either getting the antenna above the trees or putting the antenna in the open area? Thank you for helping us with this.

[Dave Loudin]

Via the Braund identification, I found a picture of your antenna. Looks like a dipole, but I can't tell how long it is. I'll assume it will provide 3 dB gain no matter what - a very generous assumption.

The goal for reliable reception is a noise margin of +10. The antenna will add to noise margin, so we're down to signals of +7 that should be reliable. The amplifier is bad news: the amplification has no effect on noise margin and the amp's internal noise (about 3 dB) actually SUBTRACTS from noise margin. We're back to needing a signal of +10.

Two stations, an LPTV and a repeater, WIBU-LP and W48DB, meet that criteria. Three more stations, two CBS affiliates and an NBC station have positive NMs, so they should lock periodically.

All this math assumes your antenna is in the clear. All bets are off in the trees. You cannot do better with the antenna you have.

Teleview, you want to take it from here?

[teleview]

I have looked at satellite views of your area and there is a LARGE open area to the south of the trees. The satellite view shows that the trees are densley packed trees. You say that the camper site is 'in the trees' . . Well Ok , how far is it from the camper to the open area? . You can put one foot in front of the other and measure that way.

[teleview]

Keep your attention on our conversation and information exchange , so as to get an antenna up , and watch tv.

[tntsmith]

I am not at the property right now but I would estimate we are 50 -100 feet from the clearing. We will be there this weekend and I can get a more accurate measurement. I'm guessing we could set an antenanna in the clearing. How far of a distance is too far?

[teleview]

No distance is to far , cable tv is and example of moving Tv signals over long distances on a coaxial cable. . My aim is to make the cost reasonable with your situation. . 2 channels will be easy to receive in the open area. 48DB-D UHF channel 48 PBS and WIBU-LP UHF 51 ION . . The Oak trees tend to grow 50 , 60 feet and even higher. So the Tv antenna is headed for the open area. . I am thinking about and doing research on the situtation. With the right equipment the Tv transmitters , 6 channels , at Madison to the south can be received. Those are WKOW ABC , WISC CBS , WHA PBS , WMSN Fox , WMTV NBC and WBUW CW. You can go to the >>Start MAPS<< part of tvfool and see the locations of these Tv transmitters. . . You can mull this over for awhile , and I will be back with more info. . But then you have this place in the middle of Nowhere so as to get away from it all , or so you say.

[tntsmith]

LOL Yes we go to get away from it all, but rainy days are nice to be lazy in front of the TV. Just like at home! We sure appreciate your help with this. As you can tell, we do not know much about Tv reception beyond hooking up to cable. I will check out the transmitter locations as you suggested.

[teleview]

At the >>StartMAPS<< part of tvfool in the antenna height box put in , 40 and 50 foot antenna height. So as to receive the Madison Tv stations. A telescoping pole with guy wires will be used to do this. . These telescoping Tv antenna masts are made for and have been used for Tv reception almost from day one. . . http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Antenna_Masts_s/42.htm . . . And now a bit of history , All Electronic Black and White - Commerical television as you know it to day , was approved by the FCC , July 1 , 1941 . The first advertisement was the televising of a TimeX watch , It takes a licking and keeps on ticking. . Shortly after Commerical television was approved it was shut down until after the war 1945.

[teleview]

I am feeding this to you a little bit at a time so you don't through up on the key board. . Medicine has to taste bad to be good.

[tntsmith]

I like your humor! Obviously you can tell we are quite ignorant when it comes to solving this problem. So it is not just a matter of getting the antenna in a clearing, we will still have to raise it to 40 or 50 ft?

[Dave Loudin]

I think that's what teleview is saying. You need that height to get a better look at the Madison stations. To get a visual of this, click on any of the station listings in the table on your TVFool report. A path profile will open in a new window (or tab).

[kb2fzq]

Via the Braund identification, I found a picture of your antenna. Looks like a dipole, but I can't tell how long it is. I'll assume it will provide 3 dB gain no matter what - a very generous assumption.

Clearly, the dipole was installed by the camper manufacturer as an added option and was intended to receive stations very close and strong. Moving into a clearing may improve signal strength, but the answer, IMO, would be to nix the dipole and install a higher gain, multi-band, multi-element yagi, that can go up and come down easily in his camping scenario...with alittle thought and imagination, it could be an easy fix.

[teleview]

Ok here is the Test Situtation for the middle of nowhere camp site. Go to this site that I have put on the tvfool web site. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=233 . . Buy one of the Tv antennas and loooooooong RG-6 coax cable. This Is A Test. You are Testing to receive UHF 48 and UHF 51. Drive your car or pickup out in to the open area and put the antenna on top of the vehicle. . At the >>StartMAPS<< part of tvfool you can put different antenna heights in the antenna height box. . This is for an antenna that is in the the clear , not in the trees. . This Is A Test , this is not the final answer for all time , This Is A Test. . 0 NM(dB) is the reference point for reliable digital tv reception the more positive the number the better. . My informational postings are loaded with easy to understand information , and it is Ok to read them. . The middle of nowhere camp site is not to close to any thing , Get One of the antennas as a TEST. . This Is A Test. . If you have a 12 volt , digital tv then you can use a much shorter RG-6 cable with the vehicle out in the open area.

[kb2fzq]

After taking a closer look at your TVF report you posted, I assume it is for the campsite, it is not stellar....18 miles out is PBS W48DB on UHF RF 48 and is only running 4.89 KW, that's fairly weak for the upper UHF bands....anything else is a 2edge signal, which I believe will be a crap shoot, unless you get like a 91XG, up,up,up, UP!!!
With the OTA game, sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you....you got a whole herd (herd?) of bears at the campsite, and they all seem REAL hungry....

[teleview]

This Is A Test . Get one of the rods and loop NON Amplified indoor type tv antennas and take it out in to the cleared area , This Is A Test. . . Tv antennas receive the best when the metal receiving elements are broadside to the Tv transmitter. . So as to understand what this means , face something and pretend that it is the Tv transmitter , now extend your arms out from your body to the left and right straight out , you are now facing the pretend tv transmitter with your arms straight out , this is broadside to the tv transmitter. Tv transmission and reception is not Magic , And Cell phones are not magic, cell phones also need towers and AM and FM Radio has towers.

[teleview]

For the Test put the antenna on top of the vehicle , turn the antenna for best reception of UHF 48 and UHF 51.

[tntsmith]

OK, got the first post about the test right before running out the door to the camp site. Found a basic non amplified antenna at the local ACE (not much for choice of where to shop) it did have the multiposition function. Had a looooong extension cord and took everything to the clearing. I hadn't read the post about putting it on the vehicle so just had it sitting close to the ground. No luck. Programming took longer and seemed to stay on certain channels longer but after programming finished there was still no signal. Our local Walmart has the Philips SDV5119/27 that you suggested and I can pick that up and try again this coming weekend. Hope all had a great weekend. Weather was great!

[teleview]

I can not tell you to do ever last letter of the alphabet , YOU will need to think about what You are doing , You will need to read and put together information in Your mind. . I know it is hard for those that have never thought about any thing their life and do not give me some story about , I have only baked bread all my life. . You have eyes , and when You drive around You see Tv antennas And Other Antennas on roof tops and other places up high , You have a mind , You can understand that height is the reason , the more height the better the reception. . You are responsible for You. . So this is what You and Your buddy do net , dig a hole 6 foot deep , You get in and Your buddy covers You up with dirt. . . I walk around shaking my head , and this is what I say , the humans of this time period on this planet are Dumber Then A Box Of Rocks. . Am I being funny now?

[tntsmith]

Teleview,
The questions is not whether I think you are being funny, it is whether the people of this forum appreciate your degradation of the question askers, creating a hostile environment.

Dave Loudin posted:

“Teleview,
Please remember that these are people not familiar with RF for the most part, and they do not know what they need to tell. It's not a grand conspiracy to withhold truth. Your tone as it is written borders on embarrassing the person seeking help, and that will chase people away. Ultimately, this should be an educational experience. I know I keep learning all the time.”

[Dave Loudin]

tntsmith,
I recreated your report via the "Start MAPS" option and experimented with varying antenna height and location. This (http://http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbe2bd029b542) is the report for 70 (!) feet, where the Madison stations finally start to come in. Between distance and terrain, you're options are limited

I think you're looking realistically at three scenarios:

1) Get an antenna like the Antennas Direct DB 2 or a Channel Master 4220 for mounting on the camper to get the two low-power stations

2) Get a high-VHF antenna like an Antennacraft Y10-7-13 or a Winegard YA-1713 and mount it between 10 and 20 feet. Be able to aim at 3 or 315 degrees for ABC/NBC/CBS

3) Go nuts with a huge tower and a $118 Winegard HD 7698 (so you could get fox) or a UHF-only Antennas Direct XG91 for half that (for all the others).

The antennas in options 1 and 2 are about $40. Frankly, I like going for the VHF stations (option 2), as they will peneterate the trees much easier.

[tntsmith]

Dave,

Thank you for all the time you put into recreating our report and offering options of antennas to use. We appreciate you sharing your knowledge and helping us with our reception issue.

[Kyle]

We are looking to receive at least one local channel while camping in a remote location in Wisconsin. We have a travel trailer with a Delta antenna on the roof. It has a power plus booster amplifier. We tried the reception at our house and received many channels with great reception. Tried reception at the camp site and it appears to find a few channels but when scanning is done it says "no Signal". We are guessing we need a different antenna but we aren't sure what kind.

Thank you for any advice you can give.


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbe73937d3d89

Have you checked all the connections going to and from the antenna?
If so you may need a higher gain antenna for where you camp, also, if you are camping in a deep valley it may be impossible to get any reception at all.

I've used a powered 12volt omnidirectional antenna (http://www.12volt-travel.com/12-volt-amplified-hidefinition-digital-tv-antenna-p-9379.html) on both our TT and our boat. So far so good, we've only had one place that we couldn't get more than a handful of stations. But, when we're camping we aren't really there to watch TV except for the news/weather. As long as those come in, everything is cherry :).