Sporadic reception

[JeffKnob]

I have a ClearStream2 antenna about 14ft off the ground with roughly 25ft of RG6 running into my house. From there I have it connect to an amplified distribution splitter. There is supposed to be 8db per output.
http://www.amazon.com/DIGITAL-AMPLIFIER-INTERNET-SIGNAL-BOOSTER/dp/B001EKCGT8

One lead has about a 25ft run to a bedroom, one runs about 40ft to an office, and one runs about 70ft to my living room. The run to the living room has an additional 12db amp inline as well.

Sometimes I can get a good signal of about 79-80% for all of my channels (the ones in green in the attached picture). Other times I lose a channel competely. The Fox channel WLUK is a common one I lose.

I was thinking that I needed a preamp but if I am not getting the signal to start out with, that won't do any good. According to the attached picture from this site, I should be able to get these stations in which an indoor antenna easily. What am I doing wrong? I want to be able to get a consistant signal that I won't have to mess with everyday to achieve.

Thanks for your help.

[ghz24]

Hi JeffKnob,
Welcome to the forum.
The community will need a link to your tvfool report. Visit here (http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=4) if you need help getting the report.

[JeffKnob]

Hi JeffKnob,
Welcome to the forum.
The community will need a link to your tvfool report. Visit here (http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=4) if you need help getting the report.

Sorry about that. I thought I was attaching it to the original post but maybe I am not allowed attachments since I am new here.

Here is the link.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dec1249c9e94c04

[GroundUrMast]

My first knee-jerk reaction is:

Rule of thumb - One amplifier can be too many. Two amplifiers are too many.

What happens when you remove all amplifiers... connect one TV to the 'bare-foot' antenna feed? (I would expect the CS2 to deliver enough signal power with no amplifier needed... except for WLUK.)

Does the CS2 face NE?

The CS2 is a UHF only design, WLUK is broadcast on real channel 11 (VHF). You may need a high-VHF antenna such as an Antennacraft Y5713 and a UVSJ (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=UVSJ&d=Pico-Macom-UVSJ-UHF-VHF-Band-Separator%2FCombiner-for-Antenna-%28UVSJ%29) to combine your existing UHF and the additional VHF signals. Try removing the amplifiers first.

[ADTech]

Upgrade kits to convert the C2 to a C2v should be available in quantity in a few days.

[JeffKnob]

My first knee-jerk reaction is:

Rule of thumb - One amplifier can be too many. Two amplifiers are too many.

What happens when you remove all amplifiers... connect one TV to the 'bare-foot' antenna feed? (I would expect the CS2 to deliver enough signal power with no amplifier needed... except for WLUK.)

Does the CS2 face NE?

The CS2 is a UHF only design, WLUK is broadcast on real channel 11 (VHF). You may need a high-VHF antenna such as an Antennacraft Y5713 and a UVSJ (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=UVSJ&d=Pico-Macom-UVSJ-UHF-VHF-Band-Separator%2FCombiner-for-Antenna-%28UVSJ%29) to combine your existing UHF and the additional VHF signals. Try removing the amplifiers first.

I had it at one time facing NE and then strangely I seemed to get better reception facing it NW. That leads me to now think you might be right about having too many amps. So if I were to get the VHF conversion for my CS2, I "should" have enough power to feed all of my runs in the house without an amp?

[GroundUrMast]

Try re-aiming the antenna with no amplifiers connected, using just one TV.

With noise margins predicted to be 30 dB or higher, I expect that you should have enough signal power to drive 100' of coax and a 4-way split, all with no amplifier.

You already own the 4-port PCT amp which has a fairly high input capacity, so you can go ahead and use it rather than buying a passive splitter. However, the second amp must be overloading, and even if it isn't, it's adding noise that works against you.

Follow up with Antennas Direct. Their VHF retrofit kit was not on their web site when I checked earlier (edit: per ADTech, they are on the website), but they have been testing them in the field for some time now.

(FWIW: The total loss of 100' of RG-6 is less than 7 dB at the top end of the UHF band. A 4-way splitter should not have more than 7 or 8 dB of insertion loss. The math says you should have less than 15 dB total loss between the antenna and the most distant TV. The CS2 has forward gain that offsets as much as half of that cable+splitter loss, which would leave a NM of over 20dB at the TV tuner.)

[ghz24]

So if I were to get the VHF conversion for my CS2, I "should" have enough power to feed all of my runs in the house without an amp?

The conversion kit should get you reliable wluk reception.

[ADTech]

The upgrade kit has been on the site for a couple of weeks. It's under Accessories> Reflectors.

The wide beamwidth of the C2 can be a double-edged sword. In environments where towers are broadly scattered, it helps by often avoiding a rotor. But, since there's no such thing as a free lunch, that same broad beam-width makes it more susceptible to off-axis multi-path. A more directional antenna such as a small UHF Yagi can be a better choice when UHF stations are effectively co-located and if multi-path occurs. Usually when this arises with a C2, the best response is to relocate the antenna and try again.

[ghz24]

The upgrade kit has been on the site for a couple of weeks. It's under Accessories> Reflectors

So ADTech, the 35.5 inch rod on the c2v is not connected to the feed line?
Like wide reflectors on whisker type (4/8 bays) give some VHF sensitivity?

[ADTech]

It's a simple unity gain dipole with a balun and UVSJ to combine the dipole with the loop element, nothing fancy. We did it using parts and materials that were mostly off the shelf. We bought the UVSJ of a vendor's shelf and slightly modified the plastic dipole holder from the one used on our V-series antennas.

Here's a "universal" version I made up for other of our UHF antennas.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb390/AntDirect/C4%20with%20VHF%20Dipole/C4vPartsDetail.jpg

The actual C2 upgrade kit is a reflector with all this already attached to it. It takes only five minutes to swap out the reflector, move two cables, and snap the rods into place.

Tech data sheet is for the C2v is available under "Documents" on the product page for the ClearStream 2 Complete which includes a C2v.

[JeffKnob]

Upgrade kits to convert the C2 to a C2v should be available in quantity in a few days.

I purchased the CS2 antenna because it said I could get DTV with it. I have to purchase something additional in order to get VHF now? :confused:

[JeffKnob]

I redirected the antenna to the proper direction using a compass and removed the extra amps. I am now only using the amplified splitter talked about above. I am getting a good signal now for all channels but the VHF one. I have a conversion kit ordered from Antennas Direct. I hope this will take care of that final issue.

[JeffKnob]

I got the addon VHF portion from Antennas Direct and have installed it. After doing so my UHF reception is worse. I do get my Fox channel somewhat now (the only VHF channel). For testing I setup a TV in my basement close to where the cable comes into the house. The signal issues I experience throughout the house are also happening in the basement as well. I wonder if I need a preamp or to go higher with the antenna. My antenna is currently attached to a mast that is at the back corner of my house. It is about 14ft off of the ground and line of site to where the towers would be (about 22 miles away), my neighbor's house is in the way. I have also thought about cutting my losses with this antenna and get something more conventional. What should I do?

[GroundUrMast]

Is there any chance of damage to the coax or it's connectors? Is there any chance of water in the coax?

I agree, you need to see a usable signal at the point closest to the antenna...

[MisterMe]

... After doing so my UHF reception is worse. I do get my Fox channel somewhat now (the only VHF channel). For testing I setup a TV in my basement close to where the cable comes into the house. The signal issues I experience throughout the house are also happening in the basement as well. I wonder if I need a preamp or to go higher with the antenna. My antenna is currently attached to a mast that is at the back corner of my house. It is about 14ft off of the ground and line of site to where the towers would be (about 22 miles away), my neighbor's house is in the way. I have also thought about cutting my losses with this antenna and get something more conventional. What should I do?You clearly don't need a pre-amp because you have too many strong signals including FOX11 WLUK (RF11). Also, I would doubt that your neighbor's house is the issue. I would suspect that the issue is your cabling or your connections.

[ADTech]

Jeff,

Adding the upgrade should have negligible (if any) effect on the C2's UHF reception. If your reception has been significantly affected, that suggests to me that either the diplexer is bad or one of the short coax cables is defective.

I will look up your order and will pull an upgrade kit from inventory, test it, and ship it out today as a replacement. Please let me know if this resolves your reception issues.

Steve

[JeffKnob]

Jeff,

Adding the upgrade should have negligible (if any) effect on the C2's UHF reception. If your reception has been significantly affected, that suggests to me that either the diplexer is bad or one of the short coax cables is defective.

I will look up your order and will pull an upgrade kit from inventory, test it, and ship it out today as a replacement. Please let me know if this resolves your reception issues.

Steve

Thanks Steve. That is certainly worth a shot. I was definitely confused when this happened. I also plan on trying a new run of cable into my house because my overall performance doesn't seem to be as good as people are saying it should be. This was true even before I added the c2v upgrade. If after I replace the cable and the new c2v upgrade you are sending, I still don't get a good signal, I will definitely post again here. I am hopeful though that this will all work out.

Jeff

[JeffKnob]

My only remaining issue is that my CBS station (WFRV) will have a good signal and then just completely stop. It goes from 0 to about 70% back down to 0 randomly. The other channels don't behave anything like that. I am confused.

[ADTech]

Multi-path. Try a different mounting location or a more directional antenna.

[JeffKnob]

Can someone recommend are more directional antenna for my situation? I would like to keep it fairly inexpensive since I have already spent a good amount of money on an antenna that won't work for my situation. Thanks.

[No static at all]

Very Good (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&cp=20&gs_id=l&xhr=t&q=antennacraft+y5-7-13&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS418US430&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&ion=1&biw=1117&bih=511&wrapid=tljp1325712585091039&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=14804857130136057679&sa=X&ei=2MQET7eJE8Tw0gG61I3AAg&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQ8wIwAg#)

Better (http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-YA-1713-High-Band-Antenna/dp/B003H2G5K2)

Best (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&cp=21&gs_id=n&xhr=t&q=antennacraft+y10-7-13&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS418US430&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&ion=1&biw=1117&bih=511&wrapid=tljp1325712792361040&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=4396791049671780653&sa=X&ei=qcUET_fFFajV0QHbidG5Ag&sqi=2&ved=0CDQQ8wIwAg#)

[JeffKnob]

Very Good (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&cp=20&gs_id=l&xhr=t&q=antennacraft+y5-7-13&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS418US430&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&ion=1&biw=1117&bih=511&wrapid=tljp1325712585091039&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=14804857130136057679&sa=X&ei=2MQET7eJE8Tw0gG61I3AAg&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQ8wIwAg#)

Better (http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-YA-1713-High-Band-Antenna/dp/B003H2G5K2)

Best (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&cp=21&gs_id=n&xhr=t&q=antennacraft+y10-7-13&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS418US430&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&ion=1&biw=1117&bih=511&wrapid=tljp1325712792361040&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=4396791049671780653&sa=X&ei=qcUET_fFFajV0QHbidG5Ag&sqi=2&ved=0CDQQ8wIwAg#)

Thanks but those are VHF only. I would need it to do VHF and UHF like my currently setup only more directional.

[No static at all]

Oops, my bad

Smallest moderately directional combo (http://www.google.com/#q=winegard+7694&hl=en&rlz=1R2ADFA_enUS418&prmd=imvns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=1ckET8OBGInw0gGCssWeAg&sqi=2&ved=0CEUQrQQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=ffb2d43fe4e10fef&biw=1117&bih=511)

Small moderately directional combo (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&cp=18&gs_id=1y&xhr=t&q=antennacraft+hbu33&rlz=1R2ADFA_enUS418&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1117&bih=511&wrapid=tljp1325714104384033&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=15614710342909989721&sa=X&ei=zMoET7jKCYrl0QG23LWsCQ&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQ8wIwAA#)

[JeffKnob]

I picked up the Antennacraft HBU33 from my local Radio Shack and installed it today. My CBS station (WFRV) is now just as bad if not worse than in was. I am also getting a weaker signal overall across all channels. The HBU33 is going back to the store. I am getting very frustrated.

[MisterMe]

Your problem is not lack of signal. It is also not your HBU33 antenna. Perhaps you should make a direct connection between the antenna balun to a single TV set to test your signal strength on each channel. Then put your distribution amplifier inline and repeat the test with the single TV. This test will determine whether or not your distribution amplifier is working correctly. Make sure that the amplifier is powered. You may also place terminators on the unused ports during the test.

[GroundUrMast]

I picked up the Antennacraft HBU33 from my local Radio Shack and installed it today. My CBS station (WFRV) is now just as bad if not worse than in was. I am also getting a weaker signal overall across all channels. The HBU33 is going back to the store. I am getting very frustrated.

Very frustrating indeed. :(

I've had tough trouble cases on several occasions. In several situations, I made progress after I decided to start over mentally, throw out all my conclusions and re-prove what I thought I knew for sure.

Each cable and connector, every part of the system should be suspect at this point. I agree w/ MrMe, simplify the system so that you can prove you have reliable signal at the antenna. If not, look for a new mounting location or an antenna that produces a reliable signal. Then, add complexity to the system.

[Electron]

Install a Winegard HD7698P antenna above the roof. Aim the HD7698P antenna at about 66 degree magnetic compass. Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html. . Here are some roof mounts , http://www.ronard.com/9009911.html , http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html , http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html. With this antenna a preamplifier will not be needed. The antenna collects a lot of signal / signal strength to the tv. And the antenna does a very good job of rejecting multipath/reflected signals that can interfer with reception. . Here are places to buy antennas and etc. , http://www.winegarddirect.com , http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www.amazon.com

[Electron]

A way to prove out the reception is to connect a known to be good RG-6 coax cable DIRECT from the antenna to the tv. Run the RG-6 coax from the antenna through a open door or window DIRECT to the tv.