How does this station come in?

[skatingrocker17]

Hello,
I recently purchased the RCA ANT751R antenna and a Wingard 8275 preamp (I have DirecTV but I just want to mess around with an antenna for fun). I've been messing around with the antenna a little bit today, trying to find out where to aim it (I've been using TVFool data and a compass). I've been aiming it a different cities to see what I can get (Fort Wayne, IN - Lima, OH - Toledo, OH - Detroit, MI). Anyway I'm in the Toledo market and I can pick up Lima/Toledo stations no problem.

Tonight I was messing around with the antenna some more and just decided to leave it alone until tomorrow and aim it towards the Toledo towers. I have the antenna about 20 feet off the ground. So I went in and ran one last scan for the night and saw that I was getting 53.1 WLAJ ABC Lansing. But how? It's located nearly 100 miles away and I don't even have the antenna pointing in the right direction.

It seems odd, but if I can manage to get that for a few minutes at a time, could I possibly achieve something even closer like Detroit or Fort Wayne? I'm putting the antenna up another 10 or so feet tomorrow.

By the way, here's my TVFool data (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dec125d84545de0), WLAJ is listed as Tropo; which I know stations with those paths probably have the least chance of coming in. Maybe all the conditions are just perfect for tonight.

[skatingrocker17]

Just noticed I'm now getting:
WPTA 21.1 ABS 21.2 The CW - Fort Wayne - Indiana
WNDY 23.1 MyNetworkTV - Marion/Indianapolis - Indiana
WISE 33.1 NBC 33.2 FOX - Fort Wayne- Indiana
WLAJ 53.1 ABC 53.2 The CW - Lansing, Michigan

I think I might be overloading by using a pre-amp because when I did the scan I'm don't think I'm picking up all my Toledo stations, that's okay though because DirecTV just carry's them.

Pretty cool, the only reason I wanted to mess around with an antenna is so I could see how many out of market locals I could get.

[be236]

Your TvFool link not there.

[skatingrocker17]

Your TvFool link not there.

Sorry, I updated the OP.

At about 2am I was receiving:
WNDY MyNetworkTV Marion/Indianapolis, Indiana
WPTA 21.1 ABC 21.2 The CW Fort Wayne, Indiana
WISE 33.1 NBC 33.2 Fox Fort Wayne, Indiana
WLAJ 53.1 ABC 53.2 The CW

And this morning at about 7am I was getting:
WEWS 5.1 ABC Cleveland, Ohio
WKYC 3.1 NBC Cleveland, Ohio

Also, I should note that I have my antenna pointed North at Toledo.

[Tower Guy]

WLAJ is listed as Tropo; which I know stations with those paths probably have the least chance of coming in. Maybe all the conditions are just perfect for tonight.


That's right. The tropo over Michigan was good last night.

http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html

[skatingrocker17]

That's right. The tropo over Michigan was good last night.

http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html

I wish I could get some of those stations during the day. The Cleveland ones only showed up in the early morning but the sun had risen a little. I was surprised that the Cleveland stations came in because they are low-VHF and because they are located over 100 miles away.

[skatingrocker17]

I wonder if I could ever get a consistent signal from another city during the day time...

[GroundUrMast]

I wonder if I could ever get a consistent signal from another city during the day time...

Not over the typical tropospheric path.

If you are seeing intermittent reception from stations that are arriving via one or two edge paths... Then yes, then there are usually ways to improve reception.

Is there an example station on your TVFR that you are particularly interested in?

[skatingrocker17]

Not over the typical tropospheric path.

If you are seeing intermittent reception from stations that are arriving via one or two edge paths... Then yes, then there are usually ways to improve reception.

Is there an example station on your TVFR that you are particularly interested in?

Nearly all of the Fort Wayne and Detroit stations are 2EDGE. I don't really anticipate getting either one with the current antenna I have. It's probably between 30-35 feet in the air and when it's pointed to the exact degree of a Fort Wayne or Detroit station in the day time, nothing comes in.

But I was wondering... could an pre-amp overload even a low signal? I wonder this because then I point my antenna away from Toledo I receive all the Toledo stations but when I point it towards Toledo, I hardly receive any. And last night when I was getting Fort Wayne, Indianapolis, Lansing and Cleveland I had the antenna pointed at Toledo.

Just ran a scan... tonight I'm getting:
WKEF ABC Dayton
WPTD PBS Dayton
WBDT The CW Dayton
WTTE FOX Columbus
WKOI TBN Richmond, Indiana
WRGT FOX-MyTV Dayton << Showing signal of 88%
WSTR MyTV Cincinnati
WDTN NBC Dayton
WCMH NBC Columbus << Almost signal of 80%
WHIO CBS Dayton
WBNS CBS Columbus
WGGN Sandusky
WCPO ABC Cincinnati
WRTV ABC Indianapolis
WNDY MyTV Indianapolis
WOSU PBS Columbus
WSFJ TBN Columbus

By the way, tonight I'm aimed at Fort Wayne, but no Fort Wayne channels. Could I be overpowering them?

http://i.imgur.com/uXR6L.jpg


This all might seem normal to you, but I've never really messed with a decent antenna, I've always had cable or satellite. I'm really surprised I haven't run into any Detroit stations yet, that's really the only larger city I've yet to see.

[GroundUrMast]

If you want to go DX'ing, you'll need a 'real' antenna.

Examples... Antennas Direct XG-91 for UHF, Winegard YA1713 or Antennacraft Y10713 for high-VHF, Winegard HD8200U is an all channel. There are other contenders...

The ANT-751 will never be a long range antenna, and no amplifier will make it bigger.

Detroit is going to be very difficult because it's blocked by the strong signals from Toledo.

[phone man]

@skatingrocker17,
Here's a thread I updated after getting a channel from Knoxville TN on wednesday evening. See post #3. I'm just south of Mansfield, OH

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=2218

[skatingrocker17]

@skatingrocker17,
Here's a thread I updated after getting a channel from Knoxville TN on wednesday evening. See post #3. I'm just south of Mansfield, OH

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=2218

Thanks phone man. That gets me thinking, do you think the Channel Master 4228HD would be a better antenna for me?

[phone man]

I'm not even sure the 4228HD is the "best" antenna for me but it has decent gain and it works. A coworker of mine who has his own satellite and TV antenna business recommended the 4228HD. I receive all the Columbus stations including the CW affiliate that broadcasts from Williamsport just west of Circleville, 65 miles away. All these stations are within 9 degrees of each other so I don't have to move the antenna at all. I also receive the local Mansfield station (real ch 12) thru the backside of the antenna. This was also part of the reason for going with the 4228HD, it's supposed cover upper VHF as well as UHF. Knowing what I know now, I might have chosen an antenna that had higher gain for real channel 46, my weakest station. It doesn't drop out that often but having an antenna that excels where you need it most is a good thing.

I'm quite new to all this stuff and enjoy reading as much as I can about it. Picking up distant TV stations when atmospheric conditions allow is a lot of fun.

[skatingrocker17]

I'm not even sure the 4228HD is the "best" antenna for me but it has decent gain and it works. A coworker of mine who has his own satellite and TV antenna business recommended the 4228HD. I receive all the Columbus stations including the CW affiliate that broadcasts from Williamsport just west of Circleville, 65 miles away. All these stations are within 9 degrees of each other so I don't have to move the antenna at all. I also receive the local Mansfield station (real ch 12) thru the backside of the antenna. This was also part of the reason for going with the 4228HD, it's supposed cover upper VHF as well as UHF. Knowing what I know now, I might have chosen an antenna that had higher gain for real channel 46, my weakest station. It doesn't drop out that often but having an antenna that excels where you need it most is a good thing.

I'm quite new to all this stuff and enjoy reading as much as I can about it. Picking up distant TV stations when atmospheric conditions allow is a lot of fun.

I would like to get Fort Wayne stations at the least but I'm not sure a smaller antenna would allow me to do this. Maybe a 4228HD would make it more likely though.

I'm still learning too, I've never really messed around with antennas much, I've never needed to. I have everything in place, a J mount, RG6 coax running to a Winegard 8275 pre-amp. It wouldn't be hard just to swap it all out for something else.

[phone man]

Looks like we're in for a DXing treat this evening too. I'm watching WIPB from Muncie Indiana right now. Weird how I'm not even pointed that direction.

A dedicated antenna pointed at Ft.Wayne or any other city is an option. Then use an A/B or some sort of selector switch when you want to look that direction. This means duplicate coax runs and preamps if necessary but gets around the hassle of combining signals. Then again, I just checked your TVfool report. WFFT appears the strongest Ft.Wayne channel on your list. At 79 miles, tropo, and -11 NM, it doesn't look too good.

[skatingrocker17]

Looks like we're in for a DXing treat this evening too. I'm watching WIPB from Muncie Indiana right now. Weird how I'm not even pointed that direction.

A dedicated antenna pointed at Ft.Wayne or any other city is an option. Then use an A/B or some sort of selector switch when you want to look that direction. This means duplicate coax runs and preamps if necessary but gets around the hassle of combining signals. Then again, I just checked your TVfool report. WFFT appears the strongest Ft.Wayne channel on your list. At 79 miles, tropo, and -11 NM, it doesn't look too good.

I'm never pointed in the direction that I get all of the long range channels from. If you look at my above posts (a few posts back), I was pointed directly at Fort Wayne, yet received everything else EXCEPT Fort Wayne. The night before I was pointed at Toledo and received nearly (if not) every Fort Wayne station.

[GroundUrMast]

To see Fort Wayne reliably you'll need a 80 to 100' tower and a big UHF antenna such as the Antennas Direct XG91.

The AP8275 is easy to overload, it's only spec'd to handle 30,000 micro-volts of combined UHF input with the modest gain of the ANT-751 you're close to the overload point depending on which direction the antenna is pointed. I wonder how you would do if you completely removed the preamp and power supply... You may actually see more, not less.

[skatingrocker17]

To see Fort Wayne reliably you'll need a 80 to 100' tower and a big UHF antenna such as the Antennas Direct XG91.

The AP8275 is easy to overload, it's only spec'd to handle 30,000 micro-volts of combined UHF input. I wonder how you would do if you completely removed the preamp and power supply... You may actually see more, not less.

Then what's the point of the pre-amp? I thought it would only hurt the signal if the stations were too close?

Edit: 12:27am and still no extra channels ):

[MisterMe]

Then what's the point of the pre-amp? I thought it would only hurt the signal if the stations were too close?

...In your case, there is no point. Amplifier saturation is determined by the total signal that reaches the amplifier, not by the individual signal strengths of separate channels. You have many strong signals from stations nearby. They will saturate your preamp.

[skatingrocker17]

In your case, there is no point. Amplifier saturation is determined by the total signal that reaches the amplifier, not by the individual signal strengths of separate channels. You have many strong signals from stations nearby. They will saturate your preamp.

I'm trying to receive channels from other markets so a pre-amp still wouldn't help?

Last night I unplugged the amp and connected the antenna directly to one TV and my local Fox station was working but was jumpy every few seconds, keep in mind I'm pointed toward Fort Wayne, IN; not Toledo, OH. I ran a channel scan and received 2 less channels. I don't think I got NBC Toledo without the pre-amp.

I plugged the pre-amp back in and got all my Toledo stations back and ABC and Fox Lima back. Also, my local Fox station was no longer skipping.

I didn't receive 20 extra channels last night like I have been the past few nights though.

[MisterMe]

I'm trying to receive channels from other markets so a pre-amp still wouldn't help?The fact that you are trying to receive out-of-market channels will not make your in-market channels magically disappear.

Last night I unplugged the amp and connected the antenna directly to one TV and my local Fox station was working but was jumpy every few seconds, keep in mind I'm pointed toward Fort Wayne, IN; not Toledo, OH. I ran a channel scan and received 2 less channels. I don't think I got NBC Toledo without the pre-amp.

I plugged the pre-amp back in and got all my Toledo stations back and ABC and Fox Lima back. Also, my local Fox station was no longer skipping.You appear to be trying to bargain with members of this forum to allow you to receive additional channels with your preamp. No one here has any control over your preamp. Your preamp's effectiveness is determined by its specifications and the aggregated strengths of the signals that it receives.

I didn't receive 20 extra channels last night like I have been the past few nights though.I'm betting dollars to donuts that you received 20 extra sub-channels on many fewer unique RF channels. For a given RF channel, if you receive one of its sub-channels, then you will receive all of its sub-channels.

[skatingrocker17]

The fact that you are trying to receive out-of-market channels will not make your in-market channels magically disappear.

Did I say it would? I was saying that even though I aimed it in another direction they still come in just fine and while it's aimed in another direction the pre-amp appears to help. Like I said earlier, it didn't really help get me a lot more channels however it did fix the little studders I had with my local Fox station.


You appear to be trying to bargain with members of this forum to allow you to receive additional channels with your preamp. No one here has any control over your preamp. Your preamp's effectiveness is determined by its specifications and the aggregated strengths of the signals that it receives.

How so? I'm just trying to learn more about it (in this case the pre-amp) and I've shared my experiences with it. I'm not asking for channels here, how could I? I know it's not even really possible without a larger antenna at a higher height.


I'm betting dollars to donuts that you received 20 extra sub-channels on many fewer unique RF channels. For a given RF channel, if you receive one of its sub-channels, then you will receive all of its sub-channels.

Obviously, I take it you just assume that by the fact that I named every channel (excluding sub-channels unless it was another major network). Take the Dayton PBS for example, that 5 channels right there.

[GroundUrMast]

You've got it right, the key to reliable reception is primarily, antenna selection and it's location.

A preamp will help when you are faced with a long run of coax, splitter loss and poor tuner noise figure.

Amplifiers do not improve the performance of the antenna.

Some preamps are designed to work well with a mix of weak and moderate strength signals. A few preamps are able to work well in the presence of fairly strong signals. The AP8275 is intended for use where no strong signals are present.

If you installed a higher gain antenna and aimed it at the Toledo stations, I would expect the AP8275 to have trouble. I would expect it to act as an RF mixer, generating sum and difference products of the various signals arriving at the input. The output would be a combination of the original signals plus many interfering signals produced inside the preamp, the by-products of overloading the amplifier.

A high gain antenna (8-bay panel or DXing Yagi) aimed at Fort Wayne equipped with a Winegard HDP-269 or Antennas Direct CPA-19 would be far less inclined to overload if it was turned toward Toledo.

[skatingrocker17]

You've got it right, the key to reliable reception is primarily, antenna selection and it's location.

A preamp will help when you are faced with a long run of coax, splitter loss and poor tuner noise figure.

Amplifiers do not improve the performance of the antenna.

Some preamps are designed to work well with a mix of weak and moderate strength signals. A few preamps are able to work well in the presence of fairly strong signals. The AP8275 is intended for use where no strong signals are present.

If you installed a higher gain antenna and aimed it at the Toledo stations, I would expect the AP8275 to have trouble. I would expect it to act as an RF mixer, generating sum and difference products of the various signals arriving at the input. The output would be a combination of the original signals plus many interfering signals produced inside the preamp, the by-products of overloading the amplifier.

A high gain antenna (8-bay panel or DXing Yagi) aimed at Fort Wayne equipped with a Winegard HDP-269 or Antennas Direct CPA-19 would be far less inclined to overload if it was turned toward Toledo.

I'm only using one splitter to two upstairs tvs.

Initially I thought distributors were used for distributing the signal. I guess if the 8275 was supposed to be used when only a low signal is present it COULD help if I was aiming for distant stations but I guess I'm not close enough/my antenna is not good enough to even pick up a weak signal.

Oh well, I know now. I bought the 8275 because I though it would help with weak signals from other cities, for all I know it does but only at night. The 8275 was also cheaper than the 8700. I guess the worse case scenario is I get all my Toledo stations, which I do so no big deal.