Your help/input is Greatly Appreciated!

[rwilson1206]

Here is my signal info:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3db7c88e87010cdf

I live in north canton ohio, trying to pickup up signals in cleveland, ohio 60miles away (40miles away broadcast). I have a 40' tall guyed tower at the back of my house braced off with mounting brackets at the house. At the very top of the tower is an old UHF single bay antenna with twin lead and standoffs every 1' o.c. or so. It works ok, I climbed to the very top of the tower, and rotated it around (UHF antenna), tried to get the best signal. I wasnt completly happy with the results, so its my backup antenna for the other two tvs. I bought a Phillips MANT940 antenna (18db, 20 mile range) and mounted it at around 30' on the side of the tower with 5/8" coax. I am pretty happy with it, as it gets channels broadcast from cleveland (330degrees) and youngstown (45degrees?). It only services one TV (I found adding a splitter looses channels). Sometimes I get digital breakup and some good channels only come in at night. It came with an 18db in-line amplifier, no other amplifiers work with it. I would like to get all channels in all the time with no breakup. I was considering getting the Channel Master 4228HD 8-Bay (60 mile range)(or a better antenna than what I have now if its even possible) and replacing the Phillips MANT940. I would be side mounting it, because its just to dangerous to go all the way to the top of the tower (its old and rusty), although its been climbed all the way to the underside of the pole mounted old UHF antenna at the very top. Is this wise, or is my Phillips about as good as it gets? My Phillips was $30 and this antenna is $60 with 50' of coax. http://www.summitsource.com/channel-master-cm4228hd-uhf-8bay-hdtv-antenna-extremetenna-digital-multibay-terrestrial-db8-bowtie-long-range-cm4228hd-outdoor-roof-top-local-tv-signal-bow-tie-aerial-red-zone-part-4228hd-with-coax-cable-p-7809.html. I dont want to break the bank, but like I said im pretty happy now, allthough I get some digital breakup and not all the channels from cleveland come it 100% of the time. Thanks for your help...

[rwilson1206]

Any one to help?

[Tower Guy]

Any one to help?

If I lived there I'd install a Winegard HD 7696P on the top of the tower aimed at Cleveland and a 4221 aimed at the local stations. Each of the antennas would have a separate preamp, the Winegard HDP-269. I'd use an A/B switch to reconfigure which stations I wanted to watch.

I hope that your HDTV or converter box has the add-channel feature. If not, you'd have to be quick with switching the A/B switch while the system is scanning through the channels.

[Dave Loudin]

For Cleveland's Fox and CBS stations, you need a VHF antenna (ixnay on the 4228), so Tower Guy's recommendation holds. You might also consider an AntennaCraft HBU-33. The CM 4221 will be plenty of antenna for the Youngstown stations, all of which are on UHF. Combining the two antennas is usually not recommended, as it is difficult to avoid unintended cancellations between them. However, since the two directions are almost exactly 90 degrees apart (implying that very little signal from direction 1 will be present in antenna 2 and vice-versa), you could experiment by trying it.

No matter, you will end up with much more reliable reception than with the Philips antenna.

[mtownsend]

Hello and welcome!

For the VHF performance, both Tower Guy and Dave Loudin are right in suggesting a combo antenna. The problem you will find is that these combo antennas (and probably most antennas with any real VHF performance) like to be center-mounted. That is, they are usually designed to clamp onto a mast somewhere in the middle of their boom. They aren't made to be side mounted on a tower.

The combo antennas being recommended will definitely outperform the Philips antenna, but they would ideally be mounted on the mast at the top of your tower.



BTW, you may also want to re-run your analysis using an exact location. The report you posted is for a generic city-level analysis. Since some of the channels are being shown with 1Edge and 2Edge diffraction, it makes me wonder if the terrain blockage is better or worse at your exact location (sometimes local hills can make a difference).

[rwilson1206]

Thanks for all your help so far... I really want to nail this down because I will be purchasing whatever you tell me to and I'm wanting to do it soon...

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3db7c835a804386f

Heres the signals at my exact address...

One question is I only use the phillips MANT940 and I get signals from both cleveland and youngstown, and I only have one antenna pointed about 330 degrees. Are two antennas really necessary? I suppose for the optimal config. But it seems like combining antennas is not a good idea, coupled with the fact that the one guys setup will cost me about $200. I'm not sure if I wanted to do that. Like I said, I get probably 40 channels right now, FOX cleveland-youngstown.NBC cleveland-youngstown. FOX cleveland comes in 70% of time. CBS cleveland-youngstown. CBS cleveland comes in 30% of the time. ABC cleveland-youngstown. ABC youngstown spotty sometimes. ION, PBS (cleveland and young) WVIZ. WUAB cleveland and youngstown. And a few more not mentioned. I dont know if I can get to the mast right now or not, its awfully high, I probably could get to the underside of it and try and take it down. Someone suggested that putting a weighty antenna at the top would cause the mast to bend (I personally think it would be fine). The mast is 1" dia. or so, 3-4' high. Attached are some pics. The back of the house faces south. I would like the option of something side mounted to be a possibility, just it case I cant install it at the top. When I add a splitter to the mix of my phillips, I lose channels, so ideally I would like to add a four way spilitter to the new antenna setup. Would this be an option without losing channels?

With this additional info having been said, is there any other input you can give me. I have a phillips 18db signal amplifier now, if I had to throw that in the setup somewhere, and another 18db inline that the phillips antenna came with, although I dont know if its esp for that antenna, I think it is.

Thanks for all your help.

Hopefully I can get that mast down from the underside of it, its just a little scary at the top, and the tower is rusted out in a few spots, but it seems sturdy. Would you guys feel fine going up there? I have been up before and so has someone else, the other guy went a little higher though (underside of mast). The first antenna config with combining two antennas I will do if I have to, but if I can pick up youngstown with a phillips MANT940 pointed at 330 degrees, with a 20 mile range, shouldnt I be able to just improve with signal with the Winegard HD 7696P or a AntennaCraft HBU-33 pointed toward cleveland and call it a day? Would I want to still get a preamp? Will it be possible to take down the mast from the underside of it and put up the new antenna without going any higher than the underside of the mast. Come to think of it, its pretty scary going to the underside of the mast (wouldnt be at all if I knew for 100% certain the tower was safe). Any side mount options, or should I man up and put up one of the two antennas mentioned at the top.

Also, there is NOT enough room to drive a truck at either side of my house to rent a bucket and install it that way...

Thanks alot for the help...

[rwilson1206]

Tower-Antenna Pics Attached

The tree has been trimmed, so it wont be an issue (hopefully), the tree is south, and the antenna points north.

The VHF antenna you see is gone, makes me wish I didnt get rid of it, I thought ALL channels were broadcast in UHF. Will the Cleveland stations still broadcast in VHF go to UHF soon?

[rwilson1206]

Tower-Antenna Pics Attached

[Dave Loudin]

There's a tutorial somewhere that explains the Noise Margin figure. Applying that to your situation, the MANT has very little, if any gain at UHF, and probably -6 to -10dB gain at VHF. These figures add to your NM. The internal amplifier probably has a 5dB noise figure that subtracts from NM. The 18dB serves only to overcome cable loss in this case. Combining these values to the NM of VHF stations WOIO (14dB) and WJW (20dB), and you get near 0dB and 6dB net noise margins. Protecting against random fades usually requires having a 10dB or higher NM, you can see why you're getting the results you have.

Here's a radical thought: since you have plenty of UHF signal, the MANT provides enough net MN to work reliably. Since the antenna is small, with little directivity, it is picking up Youngstown and Cleveland UHF acceptably, save for WYTV. Why not build a simple bow-tie antenna scaled for VHF, mount it on the tower towards Cleveland, and join it with the MANT with a USVJ? You'll have only $15 or so invested in such a solution.

[Tower Guy]

Are two antennas really necessary?

I would like the option of something side mounted to be a possibility, just it case I cant install it at the top.

I have a phillips 18db signal amplifier now, if I had to throw that in the setup somewhere, and another 18db inline that the phillips antenna came with, although I dont know if its esp for that antenna, I think it is.


Two antennas or a rotor, your choice.

The 4221 can be side mounted, but it won't pick up WJW or WOIO. The only VHF antenna designed to be side mounted is the Antennas Direct C5. If you opt for the C5, you'll need three antennas.

Amplifiers are fickle. A good amp can help pick up a weak station, but two amplifiers or the wrong selection, and you loose the advantage.

[rwilson1206]

So what would you do tower guy, build a bowtie and combine it with my MANT?

or do what you said below?

[QUOTE=Tower Guy;789]If I lived there I'd install a Winegard HD 7696P on the top of the tower aimed at Cleveland and a 4221 aimed at the local stations. Each of the antennas would have a separate preamp, the Winegard HDP-269. I'd use an A/B switch to reconfigure which stations I wanted to watch.QUOTE]

Does this suggestion still hold for my case?

what if I first tried out a simple bowtie, and if that doesnt work buy the winegard? If I do the winegard/4221 or bowtie/MANT combo, can you suggest an A/B or USVJ? switch for me, as Ive never done that before?

Dave would you still go with the AntennaCraft HBU-33 and 4221 combo?

Or is building the bowtie and combining what I have the first thing to try?

Also, another idea, if I did the MANT/bowtie combo, would I want two preamps and a USVJ? Just an FYI, when I switch out the 18db inline amp that the MANT came with, with my other 18db amp, I get no signals at all. Will adding a preamp near the antenna work with the MANT? Will a preamp work with a bow tie antenna?

What I'm looking for from you guys is "if you want to do it right, this is what you must do..." With all the suggestions Im not sure EXACTLY what to do.

The bowtie/MANT combo seems attractive, but thats because of money.

Maybe there is no exact, just trial and error, but what would your best guess optimal setup be somewhat considering money?

thanks again...

[Dave Loudin]

Honestly, I'd try the VHF bow-tie first. You're in the situation for UHF that you don't need much gain and you need a practically omnidirectional antenna. Fortunately, those properties go together, and that's apparently how the elements inside the MANT are behaving. Stepping up to a more directive antenna, even the smallest from the commercial vendors, will no longer get both markets at once. You'll have to get a rotator or two antennas, and you'll only catch a couple more channels. The bow-tie will fix WOIO and WJW and maybe deliver reliable reception of WTOV (9) and, on occasion, WTRF (7).

The above advice is predicated on you getting acceptable UHF reception from stations as weak as WFMJ (NBC Youngstown).

[rwilson1206]

Ok, thats what I'll do, should I get two preamps and a USVJ or just a USVJ? Dont know how to make a bowtie, I'm sure its simple, should I research it and do it myself, or just buy one, if I should buy one, can you suggest one for me? Upon looking it up, I think I would rather buy one, I was initially thinking of a coat hanger type deal, but it looks a little more involved than that.

I thought about it some more, what if I utililized the single bay uhf at the top of the tower and combined it to the MANT940, with amps on each one before I combine them (do they make a uhf/uhf combiner?).

Then mount the new bowtie antenna between the two (5' o.c. for each), and combine them all with a USVJ.

Would this work? Should I get any pre-amps?

Attached is a diagram of what I am talking about...

One other thing, if I wanted to in the future, would it be wise to replace my MANT with a 4221? I can see the 4221 has better specs, but its not omnidirectional like the MANT? Keep in mind my MANT is in the horizontal position and pointed at 330 degrees, and yet I am recieving youngstown stations. Will the 4221 pointed at the 330 degree position outperform the MANT and recieve youngstown stations?

Thanks, and we are nearing the end of my posts. Sorry to be a bother... I will post my results once I hook my new stuff up. I am just waiting on the final answers from you and I will buy everything ASAP. Where is the best place to buy? solidsignal.com? any others?

[Dave Loudin]

If the MANT is delivering the UHF reception you need (meaning you get reliable reception of all the channels you want), do not replace it. Although other antennas have higher gain, no single antenna will give you the total performance you've achieved now. Replace the MANT and you now need to mount at the top of the tower with a rotor or use two antennas - and you won't do much more than fix WYTV and catch a couple Pittsburgh stations. Again, I base this part of my advice on thinking you see the Youngstown stations reliably. If that's not the case, then I'd fall back to the 4221/HBU33 combination.

For the bow-tie/MANT operation: mount the bow-tie, use a balun to connect it to coax cable, and run a short piece to the VHF-in port of the USVJ. Run a short piece of coax from the MANT to the UHF-in port of the USVJ. Run a single coax line down from the USVJ to your TV. Try it without pre-amp, and if the cable loss is too much, then add a pre-amp. (USVJ is an inexpensive specialized combiner - search at SolidSignal.com or other sites)

One thing you DEFINITELY don't want to do is combine the MANT with another UHF antenna. You will end up with worse results. Also, a 4221 or any other antenna we have been talking about pointed at 330 will not get much from Youngstown. These antennas are very insensitive at 90 degrees from the main direction.

[Dave Loudin]

Here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14245728#post14245728) is a link for a simple VHF bow-tie design.

[Tower Guy]

If I lived there I'd install a Winegard HD 7696P on the top of the tower aimed at Cleveland and a 4221 aimed at the local stations. Each of the antennas would have a separate preamp, the Winegard HDP-269. I'd use an A/B switch to reconfigure which stations I wanted to watch.

Does this suggestion still hold for my case?



Yes. You can try it without preamps first . The troublesome stations would be WOIO and WYTV.

[rwilson1206]

Quick update guys, climbed the tower after work, raised MANT 5' feet higher, pointed at about 330 degrees in the horizontal position (does this matter, vertical or horizontal). Every channel I want comes in (6:30pm) Except, as stated above WYTV and WOIO. They try to come in but with digital breakup, they do come in later at night though, pretty good. FOX cleveland has a digital breakup every 5 min or so, the smallest amount if any. Everything I just said has pretty much always been the case for the most part, just wanted 100% reliable. Would adding a preamp to the MANT work? I cant believe it picks up youngstown though when thinking about it (pointed 330degrees). So could I add a preamp, keep in mind it has to have the 18db inline hooked up to it.

Thanks

[Dave Loudin]

Not knowing what's inside the MANT, I can't say for sure, but I would bet vertical is the default. However, what you're doing works - don't change it!

Additional amps WILL NOT help with WOIO, WYTV, or any other station. Remember that those will only overcome cable loss, not improve the ratio of signal to noise. (Refer back to the noise margin post.) Only a better antenna for VHF will help.

I know you're itching to do better with UHF, but you've got to ask yourself if it's worth the bother. There's no way to avoid the two-antenna route with the added complexity. Tower Guy's or my recommendations will work - look for the best deal.

[rwilson1206]

Thanks for the help Dave, I was just thinking its pretty generous of you to reply to everyone one of my posts. Appreciate it...

One other thing, then what is the difference between an amp and a pre-amp, how do I know if I am experiencing cable loss? Is an amp for when you add splitters into a system? And a pre-amp for cable runs? If I get little breakups here and there, is that due to cable loss?

Another thing, I dont know if I want to build my own antenna or not, not 100% interested, work full time, school part time... not that it will take that long once I do everything, but I was trying to find an old-school bowtie vhf antenna to buy. I can't find one. I can find a uhf bowtie, is that the same thing? Just put it in the vhf female end of the USVJ? Would an indoor dipole vhf antenna work, just mount it outside, I read in a post somewhere else that it works, Just keep the dipole perpendicular to the source.

FYI: I rescanned and picked up 2-1. Its CBS, which is the same as WOIO, and I get CBS youngstown too.

All and all I get 47 channels with the MANT, 20 of which are crappy, religious, pbs, wviz, fluff (IMOP). No diff than cable. : )
Thats why we do this right. Because we are cheap. I like no cable bill though, I also have netflix streaming through my xbox and my pc hooked up to my HDTV with an HDMI video card, so I can go to nbc.com, abc.com, etc., and watch streaming HD. Its basically a ghetto DVR.

I still want to do the bowtie though...

[Dave Loudin]

Thanks for the help Dave, I was just thinking its pretty generous of you to reply to everyone one of my posts. Appreciate it...

You're welcome! Your situation is both an antenna design problem and a systems engineering problem, which is doubly interesting for me!

One other thing, then what is the difference between an amp and a pre-amp? Is an amp for when you add splitters into a system? And a pre-amp for cable runs?

A pre-amp is an RF amplifier that's installed at the antenna prior to a long cable run to the receiver. A pre-amp can be used to restore loss due to splitters. A ditribution amp is a combination of amplifier and splitter into one box.

How do I know if I am experiencing cable loss? If I get little breakups here and there, is that due to cable loss?

You will always suffer loss in the connection between antenna and receiver. The amount of loss depends on the type and length of cable used. The dropouts you see are not due to cable loss - you do not have enough noise margin to protect against random fades.

I know it's hard to believe, but once you have enough amplification in the line to overcome cable loss, additional amplification will not improve reception quality. You need to capture more signal from the air, as was discussed in the post on noise margin.

Another thing, I dont know if I want to build my own antenna or not, not 100% interested, work full time, school part time... not that it will take that long once I do everything, but I was trying to find an old-school bowtie vhf antenna to buy. I can't find one. I can find a uhf bowtie, is that the same thing? Just put it in the vhf female end of the USVJ? Would an indoor dipole vhf antenna work, just mount it outside, I read in a post somewhere else that it works, Just keep the dipole perpendicular to the source.

It is a shame that someone does not market a VHF bowtie. I suppose the thinking is that there's a very small market for such a beast. Commercially available UHF bowties are obviously smaller, so performance at high-VHF is less than you'd get from one properly sized for VHF. So, yes, you could connect a UHF bowtie to the VHF input of the USVJ. I don't think you'll be pleased with the results. Using an indoor VHF dipole could work, too. Keep the elements horizontal and aim the perpendicular towards Cleveland. Just keep in mind that any "stuff" in the base of that type of antenna would be a bit sketchy for outdoor use.

FYI: I rescanned and picked up 2-1. Its CBS, which is the same as WOIO, and I get CBS youngstown too.

That's KDKA, Pittsburgh!

[rwilson1206]

Ive tried adding a splitter before, and I lost channels: If I add a splitter to my system, 4-way, then could I put a pre-amp near the MANT? It would still have the inline 18db amp as it enters the basement. I right now I am using the original 2 bay UHF at the top of the tower pointing toward youngstown to service my other two tvs. But since my MANT is picking up 47 channels, and maybe more once I add the dipole vhf to the mix, I suppose I would like to abandon the existing 2 bay altogether and hook up a 4 way splitter to the MANT. Keep in mind I would have the USVJ as well, both providing signal loss. I know you said in the past dont add a preamp to the system, but is there anything I can do if I add a 4 way splitter to the system? Also, what kind of seperation should be between the dipole vhf and the MANT?

One other thing, can you suggest a converter box for me, the Zenith DTT901 is cnet's best user rated box.

I am hoping to buy the USVJ, additional coax, 4 way splitter, dipole vhf, converter box and anything else I need soon from probably solidsignal.

A 4 way splitter has up to 11dB signal loss, I am primarily concerned with good signal for main tv, other 3 come secondary, although it would be ideal to have the same quality signal to all 4 tvs.

The MANT comes with the 18dB amp, but when I add the splitter it looses channels, and if I remove the amp entirely, the antenna doesnt work. So it has to have the amp, I added another 18db amp to the line once (antenna > MANT amp > splitter > 18dB amp) and I got no signal. The 18db has to be hooked up inside, because it plugs into the wall.

would I want MANT-Dipole antenna > 18db MANT > USVJ > 4 way splitter? I dont think that will work, I'm afraid the 4 way splitter will cause me to loose channels, and I dont know where I can add another preamp into the system, if I even need one...

Actually, I may be confused, I bought amps, Not preamps, but the way they are explained they almost seem like they are the same thing. I had two amps in the same line once, and it didnt work, but what about an preamp & amp in the same line? I'm afraid if I buy the preamp It wont work with the MANT, then im out 30 bucks. I may be looking at it wrong though, I know you said not to add a preamp, so maybe there is nothing I can do about the signal loss from the 4 way splitter. Maybe my secondary UHF is the way to go for the other tvs.

Another thing, I dont think I can use the USVJ to combine the MANT and the dipole until it enters the house, does the 18db MANT amp have to be hooked up before the line enters the USVJ, or can it be added after the USVJ combines the two?

thanks again

[Dave Loudin]

Quick hitters:
1) Not surprised you lose channels with a splitter - Your net noise margin on those is near zero

2) Keep the 18dB amplifier with the MANT.

3) Use the USVJ as close as practical to the antennas.

4) If you want to split, consider something like a CM-3414 distribution amplifier.

So, you have parallel paths from the dipole and from the MANT plus its amp to the USVJ, then a single cable to the distribution amp, then to the TVs.

5) Yes, you would be abandoning the old UHF antenna this way.

6) I have no recommendations based on experience for ATSC receivers (converter boxes).

[rwilson1206]

Dave,

Ordered the distribution amp and more coax and usvj.

I read tigerbangs post about grounding and he, and you (kinda) make it sound like getting a diff. antenna (Antennacraft BU-33), will be like an out of this world difference to what I have now. I get a little breakup occasionally still from a couple channels, its a little annoying, not super annoying. Will I pick up even more channels with the antennacraft? I was thinking about buying that alone, and seeing how it works, and combine with a uhf antenna for youngstown later (if necessary). I wouldnt buy a preamp either, I would test it with just the antenna first (unless you strongly suggest a preamp). His nascar joke makes it sound like I'm really missing out on what could be. Can I side mount the BU-33 on one of the legs of the tower, as opposed to mounting to the mast?

Actually Dave, I want to do this right. And give my wife peace of mind that she can invite people over to watch a show and not have breakup. Can you verify that everything you recommended in the beginning I should still buy. Or just tell me what to buy one more time. At this stage I wasted my money on the MANT940, a philips amplifier, and time. Thats about it. I would like to piece meal things, and slowly upgrade my system, but that may end up costing more shipping in the long run. I may just order it all at once. I am going to have one of the guys at work do a tower analysis on the tower to make sure it can hold me. Its a little tricky getting up to the mast, especially installing the BU-33. An 80" boom length, not sure how much it weighs, I would pretty much be installing it one handed. Thats why I asked if it can be installed on one of the legs of the tower. I have the coax, distribution amp (to hook it up to 4 tvs) and the usvj.

Also, could I just get one antenna and point the MANT toward youngstown? I think before you said I cant do that...

Thanks

Thanks again...

[Dave Loudin]

You cannot combine the MANT with another UHF antenna - you cannot guarantee that the signals received by each will add in phase. My idea of combining a VHF antenna with the MANT depended on getting acceptable UHF performance with what you have. If you are not happy with the occasional dropouts, then you need to go with the 4221/HBU-33 combination.

The benefits of going with more directional antennas:

1) eliminating virtually all dropouts
2) picking up a few Pittsburgh stations

The disadvantage is cost.

Now, if you want to go with the HBU-33 for Cleveland and the CM4221 for Youngstown/Pittsburgh, you should actually be able to combine the two without much penalty. Why? The antenna pointed to Cleveland will have very little, if any, sensitivity towards Youngstown and the antenna pointed towards Youngstown will have little, if any, sensitivity to Cleveland. Therefore, as an interim step:

replace the MANT with the 4221, aim your old UHF antenna at Cleveland, combine the two with a splitter/joiner (NOT the USVJ, sorry), and feed the distribution amp. You will lose the Cleveland VHF this way.

You need to go back and reread my posts. I've tried to give you complete answers each time, and all the information in this post can be found in previous ones. Good luck!

[Tigerbangs]

I think that the message from David here is that neither he nor I is fond of the MANT 940, especially for VHF use. Since you have that terrific tower attached to your house, we'd love to see you take advantage of what it can do for you. David is definitely on the right track with his advice...and the altitude that the tower will give you is a terrific advantage that we'd hate to see you waste!

[rwilson1206]

well I bought the bmu33 and the cm4221 and a 5-1000mhz signal combiner...

1 x AntennaCraft HBU33 High Band VHF UHF Fringe HD Antenna Digital Ready Outdoor 33 Element Off-Air Local HD High Definition Digital Signal Television Aerial, RED ZONE, Part # HBU-33 | With 50' FT Coax Cable (ANTU33) = $38.80
1 x Channel Master 4221-HD UHF 4 Bay HD TV Terrestrial Antenna ULTRAtenna Digital Bowtie DB4 HDTV CM-4221-HD Four Bay Outdoor Roof Top Off-Air Local Signal Digital Aerial, LIGHT GREEN ZONE, Part # CM4221-HD | With 50' FT Coax Cable (AN4221) = $29.95
1 x Pro Brand P-1000 2AP GX PBI 2 Way Splitter 5 - 1000 MHz All Port DC Passing P1000 Video Coax Cable High Performance Signal Combiner, Commercial Grade, Part # P1000-2AP-GX (SPL2PC) = $0.89

Hope I got it right, they didnt come with mounts, hope I can get them at a hardware store or something. It comes with 50 coax for each, so can i just run the separate strands into the basement and combine them there, then feed them to the distribution amplifier? I didnt buy any pre amps. should I have? Maybe I wont need them?

Can I mount the 4221 at the very top of the mast, and the hbu33 at the bottom of the mast? If I cant get to the top of the mast, can I mount the hbu33 a the bottom of the mast and side mount the 4221 on the tower below it. What should I use for seperation distance?

Thanks Again.

[Dave Loudin]

I think that the message from David here is that neither he nor I is fond of the MANT 940, especially for VHF use. Since you have that terrific tower attached to your house, we'd love to see you take advantage of what it can do for you. David is definitely on the right track with his advice...and the altitude that the tower will give you is a terrific advantage that we'd hate to see you waste!

The only redeeming quality of the MANT 940 in this case was its near-omnidirectionality. With Cleveland and Youngstown at 90 degrees from each other at his location, even the most broad-beamed antenna will have a null towards one city while pointed at the other. It seemed that rwilson had just enough RF in the air to get acceptable reception via the MANT, so he had a shot at adding a simple VHF antenna to get what he wanted at minimum cost. However, I think we found that he did not have enough net noise margin to protect against random fades, interference, and the like.

[rwilson1206]

I recieved my antennas in the mail yesterday and will be installing them this weekend. A couple of questions....

I have plenty of coax, with that having been said, they each came with 50' quad sheilded rg6. Can I run seperate leads into the basement and combine them there? Or should I combine them at the top of the tower. I would like to combine them in the basement to have access to the combiner and it seems easier. Could I put the grounding block after they are combined or would I need two grounding blocks before they go into the house? Will two leads of coax going down the tower interfere with each other? Should they have standoffs or can I zip tie them to the tower leg?

Also, my mast is about 4' tall. What should the seperation distance be between the HBU33 and CM4221? The previous install had a UHF 2 bay at the top of the mast and an antenna simliar to the HBU33 at the bottom of the mast. I could install the HBU33 somewhere on the mast, come down so many feet and side mount the CM4221 on the tower. Which would be fine with me because that may be safer. By the way, my tower is 30' to bottom of mast, not 40'.

If I install both antenna on the mast my plan was to try and take down the mast that is installed now and install both new antennas on the mast on the ground, then some how climb up the tower with the mast and new antennas and install it that way. I want to spend as little time possible at the top of the tower, as Ive said before its rusty in spots and im not 100% comfortable at the top of it for long periods, moving around installing antennas, etc.

Lastly, the distribution amp I have hopefully will be good enough in my case and I will not need any other amps? Is it correct to say that seperate pre-amps for each antenna are more powerful than the distribution amp I have? That was another reason I wanted the combiner in the house and not at the tower, in the future, could I add preamps and install them in the basement, before the antennas combine, and also have the distribution amp later in the line?

Thanks Again...

[rwilson1206]

Tigerbangs or Dave, can you advise on the post above?

Thanks

[Tigerbangs]

I came into this antenna discussion a bit late, but after looking at your TVFool.com report, you have much weaker signals coming from Cleveland than you do from Youngstown. My first reaction is that you need to get the HBU-33 up at the top of the mast, clear of the tower. A 4221 can be side-mounted from a tower much more easily than a HBU-33 can be. As for safe minimum separation, I would say that the two antennas should be at least 4' apart vertically on the mast, however, it makes more sense to combine the signals from the two antennas as close to the antennas as you can and run one cable down the tower rather than run two cables. While you don't need a preamp for the Youngstown stations, I am a bit concerned that the HBU-33 aimed at Cleveland may need a bit of a boost becasue of the lower signal strengths and long cable leads. The issue is that it's such a pain to get up and down the tower that you need to make the decision BEFORE the equipment is installed.

If this was MY installation, I would most likely forgo the distribution amp and use a high-input preamplifier like a Winegard HDP-269 and a passive splitter instead because the preamp will overcome the insertion, cable and splitting losses earlier in the system.
Just my opinion....

Two runs of coax won't interfere with one another, so there is no concern there: i use wire-ties to secure the cable to the tower.

[rwilson1206]

One of the reasons I wanted to have two leads coming down, and connecting them in the basement is if I ever needed to change out the combiner or add preamps, protecting them from weather as well.

I got cold feet about climbing to the top of the tower, so Im having someone else do it. It will cost around 100, maybe less. So I only have one shot to get this right.

Luckily the distribution amp I ordered is on backorder, so I could cancel it and get the winegaurd preamp instead. But I do want to split my signal 4 ways. Before, when I added a four way splitter, I lost channels. Can I have a wineguard preamp and the distribution amp in the same setup? is it necessary?

I'm pretty certain if I added a 4 way splitter to the CM4221, I would lose channels (if I didnt have some type of amplification)

That having been said do I need to buy two preamps, and just use a normal splitter, and dont buy the distribution amp? Like I said, I only have one shot at this if the amps need to be installed at the antennas. What I can do is combine the antennas midway down the tower, to a spot I feel comfortable climbing to if I ever had to.

So there would be two leads each with its own preamp combining into one lead? Could I amplify the signal with one preamp only after they are combined? Also, how long are the power cords for the preamps? Wondering about how powering them will work when they are all the way at the top of the tower.

So, I will have short leads going from the antennas to the pre amps and then short leads going from the preamps to the combiner, then one long lead to the splitter. I thought about ordering custom lengths for the short leads from solid signal, because my crimping skills are not the best. Or can I use older, rg59-rg6 cable that was leftover from cable company, and use them for the short leads, they are already professionally crimped and the lengths are the same. (do they have to be EXACTLY the same?). So the options are, order from solid signal, use leftover, or do the best job I can crimping myself.

Take a look at this quote from a person at solid signal... I was telling her that I may want to replace my distribution amp I ordered with a couple HDP-269's and a four way splitter instead. This is what she said....

"HDP-269 are preamplifiers they will not work like that how you intend it to.
Take a look at the HDA-200 or HAD-100 either one should work with a 4 way splitter"

Thanks for all your help guys, I'm almost there. One other thing, how important is a good crimp, I can get it pretty decent, with some RCA crimpers I bought, I didnt want to pay 50 bucks for professional crimp tool. Ive got enough money invested in this already. But I want to do it as right as I can...

[Tigerbangs]

I am not a fan of using a preamp AND a distribution amp together except in the situation of having VERY weak signals. I don't think that you will need it, first of all, and secondly, if you choose to connect the two antennas on the antenna mast and come in with one down lead that you would be better off using a preamp, which is designed to live out in the foul weather. My personal experience is that it is better to amplify weak signals as early in the reception chain as is possible as long as you don't overload the preamp with too many strong signals. The beauty of the HDP-269 is that it can tolerate very strong signal inputs without overloading, and yet will provide amplification early in the reception chain so that your weak signals won't get buried in the cable and splitters.

[rwilson1206]

Well Ive ordered a HDP-269, a 4 way splitter and a Winegard CC 7870 2-Way TV Antenna Joiner Coupler. I originally bought a 5-1000mhz splitter/combiner, but people at solid signal told me to by this (CC 7870). I hope I did the right thing, did I?

One other question, Tigerbangs, I know you kinda said to put the preamp after the signals are combined. The preamp averages 12db gain, and the coupler has a 3.5db loss. Does that mean having one preamp, each antenna gets 6db, minus 3.5db (coupler), minus 7.5 db (4-way splitter)? Plus my coax runs. I hope (but if not I will buy another) one pre amp will be enough and put it after the antennas are combined, close to the antennas. Put I know in the past Dave may have suggested two preamps, one for each antenna. Since right now I have one preamp, I'm not making up for the 3.5db loss of the coupler, since I have to put the preamp after the coupler?
So is one preamp ok? Or do I need two? Or should I put the preamp before the coupler for the HBU33? I would play around with this if it was easily accessible, but as you know, it wont be.

I have about ten feet of coax ready for each antenna, then I combine them, and run 1' of coax to the preamp. I made 10' runs because It will allow me to access the preamp, and coupler if I ever have to, and puts them at a safe, accessible height on the tower, but not the safest where I would want to be climbing it all the time.

One other thing, could I utilize my phillips 18db signal amplifier anywhere in my system? I bought it awhile ago, and I'd hate to have it go to waste. My MANT 940 is going to waste, so Id hate to be out $60 bucks total on top of what I've recently bought.

Last thing... How crucial is it to get the coax insulation close to the very end of the f connector? I can get it pretty close most of the time, but not always (1/8" off sometimes). I have a professional crimper, so thats good, but I use channel locks to push the f connector onto the end of the coax, and the end of the coax doesnt always go flush with the end of the f connector (I think you know what I'm trying to explain). Will this cause significant signal loss? Hope not...

Thanks for everything, my annoyingness will cease soon, next week the antennas are getting put up...trying to get everything set up exactly how it should be.

[Tigerbangs]

A coupler really doesn't have 3.5 dB loss: usially they have insertion loss of less than 1 dB, but my concern about using a CA 7870 has to do with the filtering of it's inputs: I am concerned that, if you use it, you will attenuate the UHF signals coming from the antenna that will be aimed at Cleveland. I am also concerned about joining two antennas using a splitter-combiner because of the potential to suck-out some channel, but I would start by using the splitter first, rather than the CA 7870. As for your coax connectors, if you are only an eighth of an inch off, chances are good that you'll be fine.

I usually won't use quad-shield cable for TV reception because it has slightly higher signal loss than conventional dual and tri-shield RG-6u, but there is certainly nothing wrong with it, other than the fact that it is hard to work with, and conventional crimpers often won't work with it.

I think that you are overly concerned about amplification: you only need enough amplification to cover your insertion, line and splitting losses; anything more than that is superfluous. In this case, more is certainly NOT better, and too much amplification can have other consequences that are less than desirable Do NOT try to use the amplifier from the MANT 940 in the system: you don't NEED it, and it will do more HARM than good.

[rwilson1206]

Tigerbangs FYI,

I emailed this guy to make sure he didnt lead me the wrong way with the CC7870. This is what he said...


The CC7870 is basically a splitter in a weatherproof box. And I have no evidence that it is anymore efficient than a splitter. I think the type of combiner he was warning about is this: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=UVSJ This one DOES attenuate the UHF on one side and VHF on the other. Because antennas interfere with each other this helps if you have separate VHF and UHF antennas.

Only the UHF /VHF Combiners have the .05 insertion. Our 7870 has 3.5 db loss, same as a two way splitter.

Mike
Solid Signal

[Tigerbangs]

My mistake on that one: it's the CC-8800 that filters inputs, NOT the CC-7870: I should definitely do something about my mental dyslexia, or at least re-read the 'accessories' page on the Winegard website.

[rwilson1206]

Well I installed my new antenna setup over the weekend. HBU33 pointed approx. 330 degrees and the CM 4221 pointed 70-80 degrees. Each antenna has 10' leads going to the coupler (3.5db loss). Then the combined lead goes into the HDP269. From there I go down approx. 30' into the basement to a 4 Way splitter (7.5db loss).

I am pleased with the results. I didnt pick up any additional channels. In fact I lost WVIZ 25.1 (virt) and WUAB 43.1 (virt). Both channels are around the 330 degree mark, I wonder why they dont come in?

However, I rotated the CM4221 so that its 90 degrees off the HBU33 (Youngstown & Cleveland signals are over 90 degrees apart) and 43.1 starts to come in, and I've gotten reception from it thus far. Athough I get a little digital breakup from it. I'm thinking of rotating it the slightest bit closer towards cleveland, without losing 33.1 (virt), which comes in solid now. CBS 10 (real) came in great (got a lot of breakup previously), but just tonight, it has a little breakup. ABC 5.1 (virt) comes in solid now as well.

So my main concerns are:
1. why isnt WUAB 43.1 (342 virt) coming in good (although I will try and tweak it soon...
2. I have lost PBS 25.1 (345 virt), why is that?
3. And now Im getting a little bit of breakup from CBS 10 (real), (345 virt), but something like NBC 3.1 (345 virt) comes in perfect?

I never understood what my compass is in (real or virt) and which degrees should I use per the tv signal results from tvfool.com? You would think with the nice antenna I bought, you wouldnt have to be that precise...

But I am able to add in a 4 way splitter and all other stations come in great. So overall I am happy with what I did. Although I have to say, the MANT940 is a great antenna for anyone looking to go the cheap route.

Are you able to provide any input on my main concerns?

Thanks

Rob

[Tower Guy]

Are you able to provide any input on my main concerns?

Rob

Coupling two antennas with a splitter allows reflections to enter and at the same time adds 3.5 db loss.

You are better off with an A/B switch.

[Dave Loudin]

Coupling two antennas with a splitter allows reflections to enter and at the same time adds 3.5 db loss.

You are better off with an A/B switch.

Generally a true statement. However, in this case, the two markets we're looking at are virtually 90 degress apart, so very little signal from one should be getting into the other. Rwilson, you have the right idea about the 90 degree business - looks like the 4221 aimed towards Youngstown is picking up some of Cleveland. You're having issues with RF channels 26 and 28, so the next best thing to try is aiming the 4221 90 degrees from them, which would be 74 degrees by the compass, only 2 degrees from pointing directly at WYTV. If that doesn't work, then change the spacing between the two antennas. Antenna combining issues are, in part, a function of frequency. Your problem channels are pretty close in frequency.

[Tower Guy]

However, in this case, the two markets we're looking at are virtually 90 degress apart, so very little signal from one should be getting into the other.

The 90 degree separation does prevent interaction of the antenna patterns. All that means is that the line lengths to the combiner can be random. However, any structure located 90 degrees away will cause multipath. Most adaptive equalizers need a bit more signal to decode the 8 VSB signal when there is multipath.

The suggestion of an A/B switch is intended to reduce multipath and eliminate the loss of the combiner

[rwilson1206]

Well, I suppose first I'll try lowering the CM 4221 and rotating to around 74 degrees, if that doesnt work. Then I will consider an A/B switch, although I know there were conditions you mentioned on using it correctly, my HDTV is samsung, Ive tried saving channels, and then rescanning again, and the saved channels I dont believe are there anymore. I know you said something about making sure your digital converter can save channels, so when I scan each antenna, I can save the channels from it, then switch to the other antenna and rescan again? Am I correct in that?

I have a Samsung series 6 640 HDTV. My digital converter for my standard tv is an apex, the ones you can get from best buy, pretty crappy, got it for free. I am considering buying the Zenith DTT901 converter for my other standard TV.

Not to disregard your advise Dave, youve all been a big help, I just want to get this right. I dont know anything about A/B switch, can you suggest one and tell me where to install it in my setup (just replace my coupler with it?). And how to operate it.

Also, right now from the coupler I have the main lead going into (1) hdp 269. Should I get another HDP and put one of them on each antenna lead, then go into the coupler or A/B switch after that? I dont know if I'd see any improvements or not, as all channels come in now except the ones I mentioned recently. I know you suggested before Tower Guy to get (2) HDP 269's, one for each antenna.

One last thing, channel CBS (10 real) came in good at first, but the last two days it hasnt come in good. Someone else I talked to who lives in Akron, says CBS is crappy, and he has cable. But still, is there any reason this isnt coming in good from the way I'm set up now?

[rwilson1206]

UPDATE* I know some said it couldnt be done, but I added my 18db phillips indoor amplifier right after the splitter type unit from the HDP 269 comes into the basement, and I rescanned and picked up 25 (WVIZ) and 43.1 comes in perfect now. However, I get the slightest bit of breakup from 25, and CBS (10 real) still gets breakup, Fox 8 gives me a little bit of breakup as well. I know CBS 10 and Fox 8 are VHF.

My antennas are pointed in about the right direction... are the issues above still just a matter of tinkering with the antenna orientation and maybe getting an A/B switch, or something different since I've just added in an 18db indoor amplifier right after the HDP 269, and I picked up channels 25 and 43.1 and cbs 19 (10 real) and Fox 8 come in better than when I didnt have the 18db indoor amplifier in the system?

[Dave Loudin]

Looks like Tower Guy's concern about RF reflections at each antenna getting picked up by the other are correct. If you've got at least 7 feet between antennas, then the next step is the A/B switch.

BTW, this also confirms that you could not have combined the MANT with anything.