Antenna recommendation

[Turkaloo]

Hello all,

Im new and have been shopping for an antenna. I have read tons of reviews and I am new to this and have no idea which antennea will work best in my location:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8387b619945797

Thanks in advance for assistance

[Turkaloo]

Hi, This is my first post and I am trying to learn as much as I can about antennas (I'm tired of paying cable bill). I have read quite a bit on the forum and have read lots of antenna reviews but I still don't know what antenna will be best for my location:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d838790e0e96862

[Tower Guy]

Hi, This is my first post and I am trying to learn as much as I can about antennas

Your choice is to concentrate on a single direction, use an antenna on a rotator, use two antennas aimed in different directions added together, use two antennas with A/B switches, or have multiple TVs with one TV set connected to an antenna aimed Southeast and the other TV set for Northern viewing.

If I lived there, I'd have two antennas with A/B switches at each TV set. The SE antenna would be a smaller/cheaper 7-69 antenna, the Northern antenna would be larger and more expensive, also rated for 7-69.

[Turkaloo]

Thanks for reply. What kind of antennas would I use? One larger than the other?

[Tower Guy]

Thanks for reply. What kind of antennas would I use? One larger than the other?

Smaller antenna
ANT-751
HBU-22
HD 7694P

Larger antenna
HBU-55
HD 7698P

[Turkaloo]

I would point the smaller antenna to the south east where the closer stations are 30-35 miles away?

[John Candle]

I recommend 1 Tv antenna , a Antennacraft U8000 aimed at 347 degree magnetic compass. This 1 antenna Will receive both groups of Tv stations to the north and south. No A/B switch needed. Just 1 antenna. Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html

[Turkaloo]

So I wouldn't need a rotator on it as it will be stationary or you always use one for convenience? And what about VHF channels? One more thing, wouldn't I point to 130 degrees where the closer stations are? Guess I'm confused.....

[GroundUrMast]

*** SPOILER ALERT *** Sept 29, 2011 ***SPOILER ALERT ***
This thread turns into an example of how easy it is to draw a conclusion and then develop 'tunnel vision'. When trouble shooting a perplexing problem and finding yourself 'stumped', it can be helpful to challenge any early conclusions. In this case, the early conclusion was that the new coax 'can't be bad'.

I've 'been there, done that' several times... In fact I met my wife working on a telco circuit that had several separate physical faults and multiple maladjustments. With each new trouble source proven, it was very easy to question, 'did we misdiagnose the previous bad part?' Lesson, there can be more than one fault, and it's easy to assume right past a problem.
*** END SPOILER ALERT ***

Original Sept 8 post follows:

Both recommendations are worth considering.

TG's plan offers the most channels but adds cost and a bit of complexity (the A/B switch).

JC's plan offers simplicity (no A/B switching) but you may not see a few channels. The suggested aim point is a good starting point, you'd want to adjust left and right to be sure you have the best overall aim (like most, a compromise).

If it were just me, I'd go with multiple antennas. My wife has trouble with 'more gadgets' so she would vote me down. My wife has more votes than I do.

So I wouldn't need a rotator on it as it will be stationary or you always use one for convenience? And what about VHF channels? One more thing, wouldn't I point to 130 degrees where the closer stations are? Guess I'm confused.....

A rotator is a valid option that works best when only one TV is connected. If that is your situation, use the larger 7-69 antenna (I lean toward the Winegard HD7968P). A few people choose to install one antenna for each TV when a rotator is required.

If you choose JC's plan, try the compromise aim suggested to begin with, but you may also explore aiming north. The signals are weaker from the north so the forward gain of the antenna may give you reception of the weaker northerly stations while still receiving the stronger signals through the back of the antenna. Again, aim point should be fine tuned in the field.

[John Candle]

With the U8000. ALL of the Tv stations and digital channels Will be received down to At Least WEDU-DT 13 PBS Will be received , that being the case you will not be missing out on anything. Here are places to by antennas and etc. , http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www.amazon.com , http://www.starkelectronic.com , http://www.3starinc.com. Here are antenna mounts , http://www.ronard.com/909911.html , http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html , http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html

[Turkaloo]

How would I pick up WINK (CBS) if its VHF with the U8000? Is CBS is always VHS?

[John Candle]

The U8000 Will receive stations to the north and south , no rotor will be needed and two antennas will not be needed. The reception at the back side of the U8000 can be easy increased by turning the metal reflector bars from the horizontal position to a vertical position , this allows more reception to the V shaped metal receptors through the back side of the antenna.

[Turkaloo]

Anyone know much about the CM 4228HD? It looks similar to the U8000.

[John Candle]

The CM4228HD is a 8 bay panel antenna that receives VHF channels 7 thru 13 and UHF 14 thru 69. The CM4228HD's reflector rods are fixed in place , and has more reflector rods that Block more of the signal at the back of the antenna. The U8000 is also a 8 bay panel antenna , the U8000 has fewer reflector rods and this allows more signal through the back of the antenna and the U8000 has the advantage of the reflector rods can be turned from the horizontal to a up and down vertical position that line up with the metal rod they are mounted on , this gets them out of the way so more signal will be received through the back of the antenna. The V shaped metal receptor are what receives the tv transmissions (signals).

[Turkaloo]

My neighbor just gave me a Philips SDV4401. I mounted it on the roof and pointed it to 125 degrees (trying to pick up the strongest Ft Myers stations first). I can only get 1 channel which is WBBH. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I moved the antenna a couple degrees in both directions and I still get the same results.

[John Candle]

Use a known to be good matching transformer to connect the RG-6 coax to the antenna , matching transformers can be bad even though it looks good from the outside. Run good RG-6 coax from the matching transformer DIRECT to the Tv. No splitters , no antenna amps , No antenna amp power supplies , no cable tv hardware , No satellite tv hardware . The hook up will be , antenna , matching transformer , coax , tv. Also the tv must scan for , Broadcast Digital Tv Channels , NOT broadcast tv analog channels , NOT cable tv analog channels , NOT cable tv digital channels.

[John Candle]

If the tv does not have a tuner that receives , Broadcast Digital Tv Channels , then connect a tv that does have a tuner that receives , Broadcast Digital Tv Channels , or use a converter box , http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=380

[Turkaloo]

The TV definitely has a tuner in it as I was getting a channel very clear(WBBH). Would a bad transformer allow me to pick up some channels but not all? Can I get a new transformer at radio shack?

[ADTech]

Matching transformer: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103912

[John Candle]

That was nice of your neighbor. That antenna is a Excellent Huge UHF VHF All Channel Antenna that will receive all of the channels to the south east that are in the , green , yellow .

[Turkaloo]

yes, the antenna is about 12 feet long!
This is a very novice question, but I am pretty sure the transformer is where I have the coax connected to. My question is , what do the other little ends connect to on the transformer? They look like little 'C' s. Are those supposed to be connected to the antenna somewhere because right now they are just dangling in the air.

[John Candle]

More then one question asker has been here at tvfool wondering why the tv picks up this or that digital channel but not the other digital channels. When the question askers paid closer attention to what we are telling the question asker to do , then many times the question asker found that the tv was scanning for cable digital channels. Do not read over quickly and fly past the information that is being given here. The information is being given for cold hard reasons.

[Turkaloo]

John,
I scanned using the 'Air' option in the TV menu. The only other choice is 'Cable' which I didn't use.

[John Candle]

The end of the matching transformer with the 2 wires with the 'little c's' connects to the antenna. The 'little c's' go to the threaded studs that have the wing nuts or nuts that are part of metal loop of the antenna.

[John Candle]

Electrical and electronic devices tend not to work when not connected.

[Turkaloo]

I cant figure out where the c connectors connect. I do not see threaded studs on the antenna. Would it help if I post a picture?

[Turkaloo]

Sorry, I found where they connect. The threads are broken off so I will have to find a way to reconnect them.

[Turkaloo]

Connecting electronic components has made a significant difference. I have never see such clear TV, wow

[John Candle]

Many people have memories of the old analog tv channels of fuzzy pictures and single channel sound. Digital Broadcast Tv is about Crystal Clear Pictures on the main digital channel and multipul digital sub channels. Also multichannel sound and some programing has surround sound. Broadcast Digital Tv can use the full digital stream with little compression. Cable tv and satellite tv use very high digital compression rates to cram as many channels in to what they have to offer. The higher the digital compression rates , the more digital bits of information are kicked out. The Less the digital compression the more digital bits of information stay in the picture and sound. Broadcast Digital Tv use less digital compression , A Lot Less.

[Turkaloo]

Just ordered the U8000 as suggested. I will post the results. Thanks for everyones help and comments.

[Turkaloo]

Which are the metal reflector bars? The skinnier rods on the U8000?

[John Candle]

The reflector bars/rods can be un clipped and turned. The reflector bars/rods are behind the V shaped receptors.

[Turkaloo]

I get 6 channels with the U8000 and I was getting 8 with the big Phillips. Is it possible I need an amplifier?

[Turkaloo]

Is it possible to connect the Phillips antenna and the U8000 antenna and run them though the same cable? Would I just connect them with a flat cable and then run the coax from just one of them?

[GroundUrMast]

It's possible... but generally the result is a reduction of performance to less than that of either antenna for most channels, with unpredictable improvement on one or a few channels.

Combining two dissimilar antennas successfully is quite rare.

[John Candle]

The reflector rods at backside of the antenna can be turned or removed , this will increase reception , http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=2203. The reflector rods have clips that can be lifted and the rod will turn.

[GroundUrMast]

Several questions (answers to all would really help us understand your situation)...

Are you re-using old coax?

How many feet of coax are there between the antenna and TV?

Are there any splitters in the line? If so, how many, and how many splitter ports total, not counting the input port on any splitter?

How many TVs are connected?

Which way does the U8000 face when receiving 6 channels?

What are the 6 channels received? (Please use the all sign & real channel number.)

Did you re-scan after connecting the U8000?

[Turkaloo]

Answers to your questions.....

Are you re-using old coax?
I am using brand new cable. I bought a 500 FT roll and cut what I needed.

How many feet of coax are there between the antenna and TV
Its about a 70 FT run to the TV from the Antenna on the roof

Are there any splitters in the line? If so, how many, and how many splitter ports total, not counting the input port on any splitter?
There are no spitters but there is a barrel connector that connects the coax cable that goes down to the TV from the outside antenna cable (this was counted in the total coax length above)
How many TVs are connected?
Just one TV now but was planning on adding at least one more.

Which way does the U8000 face when receiving 6 channels?
The 4 channels are received when pointed at 130 degrees

What are the 6 channels received? (Please use the all sign & real channel number.)
Sorry, I was only receiving 4 Channels with the U8000:
WRXY 33
WZVN 41
WXCW 45
WFTX 35
I will have to double check this for accuracy.


Did you re-scan after connecting the U8000?
I rescanned everytime I moved the Antenna.
I also tried to aim the antenna to the North between 347 and 360 degrees and received 0 channels with the U8000.

An additional note, I connected the Phillips back up and now receive 8 channels pointing at 130 degrees. The Real channel numbers range from 9 to 45

[Turkaloo]

Well, its obvious why I dont get channel 9 with the U8000 if its 60+ Mi. UHF Band (Ch. 14-69) antenna, but I would think all of the other channels that are only 30-35 miles away would come in. Perhaps the antenna isnt high enough. Its about 25 feet up.
Just seems odd that the Phillips gets channels at that same height.

[phone man]

Something just isn't right here. With the U8000 pointed north or even NNW, you should be getting all the stations, eleven by my count with the possible exception of the VHF stations, on your TVfool report clear down to WTAM. Broadcast towers only 50 miles away, line of sight and a signal of 15 (NM)dB or higher shouldn't be a problem at all if all the hardware is working the way it should.
J.C's suggested method of picking up the distant statons from the front side of an 8 bay antenna, and the closer stations thru the back side of the same antenna worked very well for me since the stations in question were nearly 180 degrees apart. You also have the advantage of LOS in both directions.
I read you have a 70' coax run with one barrel connector going to one TV. Correct? Can you try another TV? If the results are still poor and the Phillips works fine on the same TV and coax run, I'd suspect there's a problem with that particular U8000. There's no reason a healthy 8 bay antenna should get zero channels pointed north at your location.

[Turkaloo]

Phone man,

Thats correct, a 70 foot coax running to one TV. Are you suggesting it may be the tuner in the TV? I can certainly try a different TV no problem.
You dont think the height of the antenna is a factor?

[phone man]

You said the antenna is on the roof, correct? Is there a clear view to the north, and to the SSE, 136 degrees? Unless you need more height to clear the neighbors house or some other obstacle, you should be OK.
Yes, I would try another TV just to eliminate the possibility of a tuner issue.
Just curious, is there more than one coax connection point on your TV?

Any chance you over torqued the antenna balun when you attached the coax? I assume you're using the balun that came with the U8000. Maybe double check the spade tip connections and coax connection at the antenna. And a stupid question but here goes... The front side of the antenna is the one with the bowties and that's the side you're aiming to the north, correct?

[Turkaloo]

Phone man,

Yes the antenna is on the roof. There is a clear view to the North and there are trees to the SSE. The lot next door is vacant and there are some tall pine trees there.
There is only one coax connection on the TV (its a newer Samsung 42'' LCD)

I dont think I torqued the balun as I took my time with it and was quite careful. Yes, Im using the one that came with the U8000.
And yes, I was pointing the bowties in the direction I was trying to pull signal from.

[GroundUrMast]

Thank you for the detailed reply to my questions.

Because the connectors were installed in the field, I have to ask, is there any chance that there could be a poor shield connection in one or more of the connectors?

What type connector are you using? And, what tools were used to strip and crimp/compress?

phone man is asking a potentially relevant question about the balun. Some baluns can be damaged easily. If the female F connector turns in the shell of the balun when tightening the coax connector, wires can be broken inside the balun.

[Turkaloo]

GroundUrMast,

This is the crimper:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202102678/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

These are the connectors:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202825156/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

This is the stripper (that I broke yesterday)
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202752197/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
I used to work for a local cable provider and have done tons of connections. All of the connection looked pretty good. Also, I used my cable tester to confirm there was no 'open'.

Another reason I dont think its the cable is with the Phillips antenna connected, I get 8 channels that come in crystal clear.
Someone earlier mentioned trees near the house. I have tall pine trees to the SSE of the house thats the U8000 aims directly at. Maybe I need to find / make a clearing?
Also, I used to install cable TV and cable modems

[GroundUrMast]

Thanks for letting me challenge the coax connections.

If you can find a 'test' location that gives the antenna a clear shot past the trees, yes, try it.

If you have a different ATSC tuner available, try that also. The signal levels shown on your TVFR would suggest that an unfolded paper clip should receive more than what you are presently seeing.

[Turkaloo]

OK, I will remove some branches to make a clearing and connect a different TV when I get home tonight! Thanks for the suggestions.

[Turkaloo]

Connected the Visio TV in the other room and received the same channels. I will attempt to cut tree branches tomorrow I guess (if that will really make a difference)

[GroundUrMast]

I took the liberty to reverse engineer the location of your neighborhood. (The mileage numbers in your report are enough to get within a few blocks.)

Based on Google Earth imagery, it looks like 40' to 60' trees cover much of the terrain in the 30 miles between you and the transmitters north of you.

I'm starting to wonder if you are experiencing more than the average vegetation attenuation. Shooting through a few trees will result in noticeable attenuation. Trying to see through more than 10 miles of dense vegetation could explain the tough reception conditions your facing.

Can you consider mast or tower options that would put the antenna near, at or above tree top level?

[phone man]

What was antenna height on the TVfool report?

[GroundUrMast]

Default, 10'

[Turkaloo]

These pine trees are very tall. What would I need, a 40-50 tower? When I ran the report I quoted 25 feet if I remember correctly.
Right now the antenna is close to 25 feet and the some of the tallest trees are probably 65 feet but skinny.

[GroundUrMast]

Are any of the trees safe options for mounting the U8000?

Regardless of whether Your TV Fool report is run at 10' or 500', the prediction does not account for vegetation.

[Turkaloo]

If I was to mount the antenna on a tree, my coax run to the house would increase by 100 feet. Does that mean I would need an amplifier?
Also, any good ideas how I would mount an antenna up high on a tree? Has anyone done that before?

[GroundUrMast]

A high input preamp such as a Winegard HDP-269 or Antennas Direct CPA-19 would be needed.

Each tree is unique and would require some fabrication. Satellite J-poles come to mind when thinking of panel antenna mounting. Stainless lag screws are less likely to injure a live tree than Zinc coated.

The most important question you'd need to consider is 'can this be done safely?'

Spotting an active TV antenna is a bit too rare in my opinion, but yes, I occasionally see tree mounted systems. Before you go to the trouble, do you have a neighbor with a successful OTA system, too 'compare notes' with?

[Turkaloo]

Unfortunately, none of my neighbors in the close vicinity are using antennas. I have seen some around town that look like they have been professionaly installed probably before cable TV was offered in the area.
The guy I got the Phillips antenna from, had the antenna on a 20 foot mast and said he never even used it. I think most of the people that have these antennas moved into the houses that already had the antennas installed and never bothered to take them down.
Perhaps I could pick the mast I like and ask the property owner if they are using it; and if they arent, offer to dismantle it for them if I can have it.

I think at this point my best option is to make a clearing in the trees to the SSW and do a rescan to see if there are additional channels coming in.
Its only the trees are close by that I would need to worry about, right? I looked at a illustration of what a tree can do to UHF and VHF signals and it looks like the reception is vulnerable to change when the wind blows. That may explain pixelation I have seen on a couple of channels lately when strong storms with gusty winds have blown through the area.

[Turkaloo]

I cleared some branches and 2 trees but still get the same amount of channels theough the clearing to the SSW. The next step I guess is height unless there are other suggestions.

[GroundUrMast]

My 'gut' keeps telling me that we have overlooked a basic connection or component.

I wish I could walk next door and hand you a known good coax and matching transformer just to test one more time.

[Turkaloo]

OK, here is the latest. I am very persistent trying to get things to work almost to the point of being obsessed with projects I do.
I couldnt give up on the U8000 so I yanked it back out of the box and stared at it for 5 minutes or so. I grabbed a 10 foot coax from the garage and connected it to the same TV I have been using. I put the antenna out on the porch and connected the cable. I rescanned for channels.......I got 14 digital and one 'Air' channel (whatever that is) with the antenna sitting at gound level in a chair at what I guessed to be about 130 degrees.
I will pull the outdoor cable run I was using from the attic and do the same test where the antenna is and rescan again. Im thinking I will most likely get between 4 and 6 channels.
With all of that said, I will probably do what John C recommended to do in the first place and point the U8000 to the North (347 degrees) and be able to pull channels from the back as well (after I replace the cable and test it FIRST)

[phone man]

Glad to hear there's been a breakthrough. Please report back once the coax is sorted out and you've had a chance to aim that thing north.

[Turkaloo]

Update - I have the U8000 up on the mast pointed right around 350 degrees. I am pulling in stations from the North (Tampa) and stations from the south (Ft Myers).
I scanned and the total was 25 digital and 3 air (not sure what the air ones are and deleted them after looking to see what was on them).
Thanks everyone for your suggestions and help!!

[phone man]

So the problem was with an old piece of coax between the TV and the barrel connector? Not to rub it in but that was the first question GUM asked back on page 2. Glad to hear you got it sorted out and that you're getting good reception in both directions. Enjoy your FREE TV!!