Yep...yet another request for antenna assistance

[richnerd]

Hello,

I'm looking for the best possible antenna for my location (East of Pgh.). I would first like to start off with the antenna in my attic (my attic would be approx. 30ft above street level) then mounted outdoors if needed. I own a home front facing approx. east with a crest of a hill / trees (it starts to open up East-North-East to North. Approx. South and West more hill / trees.

I plan to eliminate my FIOS TV ASAP so obviously I'd like to get as many stations as possible. I was thinking of the DB8 with additional VHS antenna but I don't want to take the wrong path. Please, if I could provide any further details I'd be happy to do so.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9e74c76e907408

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

[John Candle]

A Winegard HD7698P with a Antennas direct CPA-19 preamp will be mounted on the roof and aimed at 271 degree magnetic compass , West. Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html. Here are places to buy antennas and etc. , http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www.starkelectronic.com , http://www.3starinc.com , http://www.amazon.com

[richnerd]

Thanks for the response and the helpful links John. The antenna you mentioned is a beast. I'm not so sure I pull that one off with my wife on the outside and it's also too large to think about an attic installation (cape cod style home; could not face in the direction you provided.

Do you feel I provided enough detail of my location...is there any optional antenna setups you can recommend? ...or from my description would I likely have issues. I was hoping that I would not have to add a pre-amp; do you feel this is 100% necessary? ...I'm also trying be aware of energy savings.

thank again.

[GroundUrMast]

The DB-8 is actually a good option. It won't do as well with real channel 11 and 13 but I think you should be hopeful. A high-band VHF in the attic could be added later, if needed.

Without the preamp, you'll miss out on the weaker signals.

[richnerd]

GroundUrMast, thanks for your response and info. If a DB-8 was chosen would could be expected (loss) if installed in the attic? Is it possible to pick up VHS with this unit?

Ok, so far the mentioned antennas are the Winegard HD7698P and the AD DB-8.

Let me ask a few more questions as I learn more:
Do you recommend a pre-amp no matter what antenna is chosen for my location? If so, is there a best "bang for the buck" pre-amp or will the pre-amp need to match the antenna chosen (as say John recommended-Antennas direct CPA-19)?
Are there any pros/cons to having a solo or dual antenna setup?
How much more could the HD7698P get me for my area? ...I only ask in the sense that I'm not sure I'm reading the TV fool antenna info correctly. i.e. the "C" means duplicate station???

More info: I expect to have three to maybe four tv's hooked up to the OTA. I'm also looking into the best setup to utilize OTA, Netflix, etc. I'm looking into the HDhomerun, Roku and using Windows MP. Any recommendation in this area is also appreciated.

Thanks again.

[GroundUrMast]

All attics will attenuate RF signals... how much depends on the construction materials used and in my experience, wet or snow covered roofs change rapidly... in a negative way.

I think the DB-8 will work for 11 & 13 in your situation, because both are relatively strong signals. However, putting the antenna in the attic would not help. All antennas will do better if mounted free of obstructions.

I would think the DB-8 would be more acceptable (to an antenna hater) on the roof than the long Winegard... but I like antennas, so I would go with the Winegard and be proud of it, it's a beautiful thing!

The CPA-19 is an excellent amplifier... low noise and resistant to overload, both are desirable traits. You can try without a preamp, but with either antenna you'll miss out on several of the weaker signals, especially when you start to split to multiple tuners. I would expect to need an amplifier.

I run several HDHR's... they like clean, strong signals. If the HDHR's are happy with a signal, all the other tuners in the house are going to have no trouble with the same signal.

The red "C" on the left side of your TVFR is a warning that another station is using the same frequency. In some cases, the interference can be dealt with through antenna choice. In a few cases, the interference may to strong or come from the same direction, making it impossible to receive the station. "C" stands for co-channel interference.

[John Candle]

GUM and I are in the same camp , antennas are , Beautiful , Handsome , Pretty , Wonderful , I swell up with Pride when I see the Antenna on the roof of my house. I can not print here what I think about people that dislike and hate Tv antennas. However thats not why I am recommending a large antenna , I am recommending a large antenna because that is what it will take for reliable reception in all weather conditions of the weak stations like WNEO-DT 45 PBS. . Well Ok if the HD7698P is too big then go with a HD7696P or a Channel Master CM4228 HD. Are you living off the electric grid and generating your own power?? If you are on the electric grid , the CPA-19 does not use much power. Now that I know that 3 or 4 Tv's will be connected , Yes a amplifier is needed.

[John Candle]

Here are antenna mounts , http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html , http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html , http://www.ronard.com/909911.html

[richnerd]

You know I'm laughing here because I too feel an attraction as I learn more.

Ok, so I now know that I will be getting/needing a pre-amp; thanks for the insight. John-no I'm not living off the grid or anything but It's something I'd like to work to at some point.

Also, I do plan to mount outside to start off with due to both of you common sense suggestions.

One thing I'd like to ask is John mentioned the getting weak stations like WNEO-DT 45 PBS...how does the repeat stations work? If I am able to get WQED-PBS is WNEO-DT PBS a duplicate station and just repeat?

Also, if I did go with a HD7696P or a Channel Master CM4228 HD what would I likely lose i.e. channels, quality, etc.?
Is it safe to assume that no matter what antenna is chosen it is agreed to point at 271 degrees?

[John Candle]

WQED is WQED and WNEO is WNEO. One is not a repeater for the other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WQED_(TV) , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Reserve_Public_Media. It is a good idea to go a size bigger with Tv antenna when dealing with weak signals , the single digit NM (dB) numbers in red of the radar report. The bigger antenna helps make up for negative reception variables like , trees , buildings , weather (rain snow) and etc. that can degrade or block tv transmission and reception. I helped some people that lived on the other side of a land fill , from the tv transmitters , the land fill/mountain was very high , they did not get much in the way of Tv reception. . It looks like the HD7696P has been discontinued , it is now recommend to use the HD7697P antenna. The HD7697P antenna will work in place of the HD7698P. The CM4228HD will likely not receive any thing below WNEO , but you can give it a try. . You will be receiving the 2 groups of Tv stations to the west that have channel 48 in the middle.

[GroundUrMast]

Here in Seattle, KCTS has been a PBS affiliate since I can remember watching TV as a kid back in the 1960's. KBTC is a more recent addition to the PBS affiliate family. I receive both and rarely see the program line-up match. They both carry entirely different programing on their sub-channels. The infomation John has posted and information at www.rabbitears.info would be a starting point in your research into the similarities and differences between WQED and WNEO.

[John Candle]

Typing Tv stations call sings in the Google search box like this , kdka tv , will get a lot of information about the Tv stations and the programing.

[richnerd]

Ok. I'm looking into the the receive mapping of the specific antennas.

Since I have a cluster of only three VHF stations WQED 13@8miles, WPCW 11@10miles and WTOV 9@43miles all approx West (assuming I would not get WWCP 8@41miles approx. East).

With that said, would I be better off with a two antenna (separate VHF / UHF) and direct the VHF more East and a UHF antenna to possible receive a broader surrounding area of my location? ...if I'm understanding some of this stuff correctly :)

PS - thanks for the channel info / link.

[John Candle]

The cost of reception will go UP. I showed you how to find out what programing is on the few other UHF stations so you can decide if it's worth the Higher cost of reception. I strongly recommend installing and using what I have recommended.

[John Candle]

WWCP is way in to the gray zone of extreme measures to receive , you Will Not Receive It. There Are No Tv stations to the east to receive. You are getting your self all twisted up and you are not even receiving any thing yet. What is better , twisting or receiving??

[Billiam]

Richnerd. I'm familiar with the terrain in your area because I may be moving to the Pittsburgh area next year.

The best UHF antenna for this situation would be a Yagi. Most of your signals are 2 edge, not line of sight and the area is prone to severe multipath where the signal will be coming in from two or more directions as it bounces off trees, hills etc. I would not try to a 8 bay like the CM 4228 in that environment. I tried one at my current location which is similar to yours environmentally speaking and it did not fare that well even with the 1 edge signals. In contrast, after I mounted a Antennacraft MXU 59 and Antennas Direct 91XG I got great reception on every UHF channel that is receivable at my location.

I'd recommend the Antennacraft HBU 55 or the Winegard 7698p for your location if you want to use just one antenna for that location. The Winegard will probably give slightly better UHF gain while the Antennacraft should offer slightly better VHF gain for your VHF high signals.

[richnerd]

Thanks John and Billiam,

John - I don't mean to be a pain. It's easy to get twisted.

Billiam - Thanks for the added input. It's always good to here someone know the area.

I was only bring up two antennas vs. one due to the suggestions that came up on hdtv antenna labs i.e.

The Suggested Dual-Antenna Setup: Pulling the Most TV Networks

* AntennasDirect 91XG (Read 91XG reviews)
* AntennasDirect C5 (Read C5 reviews)
* Preamp: Required
* Rotator: Required


Expected performance (very rough estimation, LOS assumed)

* Displayed on the map: 41 stations delivering programming from 8 TV networks
* Stations in range: 28 (WLLS-LP, WNNB-LP, WJPW-CA, WFMJ-TV, WWBP-LP, WBOA-LP, WKHU-CA, WNPB-TV, WKBN-TV, WYTV, WEMW-LP, WJAC-TV, WQVC-CA, WBPA-LP, WBYD-CA, W61CC, WPTG-LP, WBGN-LP, W65CG, WTAE-TV, WQEX, WPCB-TV, KDKA-TV, WPGH-TV, WPMY, WPXI, WPCW, WQED)
* TV networks in range: 9 (AmericaOne, , NBC, CW, CBS, ABC, MyN, RTV, FOX)
* Unreachable stations: 13 (W52DS, WSSS-LP, WTOV-TV, WVTX-CA, WYFX-LP, W29CO, W45BT, WFXI-CA, WWCP-TV, WWKH-CA, W41AA, WTRF-TV, WWVW-LP)
* Unreachable networks: 0 ()

The Alternative Setup: Single Antenna Solution Pulling the Most TV Networks

* Winegard HD7698P (Read HD7698P reviews)
* Preamp: Required
* Rotator: Required


Expected performance (very rough estimation, LOS assumed)

* Displayed on the map: 41 stations delivering programming from 8 TV networks
* Stations in range: 25 (WFMJ-TV, WWBP-LP, WBOA-LP, WKHU-CA, WNPB-TV, WKBN-TV, WYTV, WEMW-LP, WJAC-TV, WQVC-CA, WBPA-LP, WBYD-CA, W61CC, WPTG-LP, WBGN-LP, W65CG, WTAE-TV, WQEX, WPCB-TV, KDKA-TV, WPGH-TV, WPMY, WPXI, WPCW, WQED)
* TV networks in range: 8 (NBC, CW, , CBS, ABC, MyN, RTV, FOX)
* Unreachable stations: 16 (W52DS, WSSS-LP, WTOV-TV, WVTX-CA, WYFX-LP, W29CO, W45BT, WFXI-CA, WLLS-LP, WNNB-LP, WWCP-TV, WWKH-CA, W41AA, WJPW-CA, WTRF-TV, WWVW-LP)
* Unreachable networks: 1 (AmericaOne)

BTW - I'm assuming I will not need motorize (rotate) the antenna once I install...correct?

thanks.

[John Candle]

The average gain figures of the HBU55 are VHF high 9.3 and UHF 9.0 . The average gain figures of the HD7698P are VHF high 11.5 and UHF 13.2 . The Winegard is a way better antenna.

[John Candle]

The best to do at this point in time is to select the antenna or antennas to direct at the west group of Tv stations install and watch Tv. Then you can decide if you will like to install a rotor or additional antenna or antennas. Or a rotor with additional antenna or antennas mounted on the rotor.

[Billiam]

The average gain figures of the HBU55 are VHF high 9.3 and UHF 9.0 . The average gain figures of the HD7698P are VHF high 11.5 and UHF 13.2 . The Winegard is a way better antenna.

I've seen at least two different studies on a Canadian HDTV Forum where people actually modeled several different antennas including Winegard antennas and essentially bench tested them to see if their spec's were in line with what they reported. Antennacraft's figures are accurate while the Winegard spec's are inflated.

Bear in mind that 9.0 is just an average and certain channels are going to offer greater gain than that figure. What I do is email Tech Support and ask them to give me a specific gain figure for the channels that I need and then I can compare them to other antennas.

The following is a must read for anyone shopping for a new antenna. After you compare the antennas that were tested in a scientific manner you will be able to determine which antenna is best.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

[No static at all]

The following is a must read for anyone shopping for a new antenna. After you compare the antennas that were tested in a scientific manner you will be able to determine which antenna is best.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.htmlYes, but that scientific testing can be misleading as well. The sharp falloff on channel 13 of the Winegard YA-1713 is a modeling error that is still not mentioned on the site. The 1713 works just as well on 13 as it does on 7 through 12.

[Billiam]

I tested the Y7-10-13 head to head against the YA1713 and the Antennacraft antenna rejected unwanted signals better, provided a little more gain and stability on channels 7, 8 and 13. I saw two separate models from people on the Canadian board that provided similar results. It does appear as though the weak spot on the Y7-10-13 is Ch. 13 but from channels 7 through 12 the Antennacraft was the better antenna in their tests and my own.

[John Candle]

Yes I have been aware of hdtvprimer for a long time and I am also aware of a lot more. Like beam width and antenna reception lobes and how the construction of the antenna effects reception. I know about lobe structure and multi path rejection angles. I know about computer modeling and real world reception. I know about heavy duty construction and light duty construction. I know about element diameter size and how that effects reception. And on and on and on. I do my best to keep it simple for the question askers , they need reception not controversy.

[John Candle]

I can pick out and understand misleading wording like , It does appear as though the weak spot on Y7-10-13 is Ch.13 but from channels 7 thru 12 the Antennacraft is the better antenna in there tests and my own.

[Billiam]

I can pick out and understand misleading wording like , It does appear as though the weak spot on Y7-10-13 is Ch.13 but from channels 7 thru 12 the Antennacraft is the better antenna in there tests and my own.

What's misleading about it? What is misleading is the published gain figures by Winegard for its antennas. In a nutshell, they are not accurate.

[ve2dc]

Superb link Billiam. I'll take modelling data over advertising copy any day ;-) Thanks...

[Billiam]

Superb link Billiam. I'll take modelling data over advertising copy any day ;-) Thanks...

You got it. Net gain is the figure that you really want to look at.

[No static at all]

Not for the Winegard YA-1713. The net gain shown for 13 is 100% wrong compared to real world usage.

I have both the Y10-7-13 & YA-1713 & they are close performers from 7-13. No big drop-off on 13 with either model, although the Winegard is slightly better on 8, 11, 12 & 13 at this particular location.

[Billiam]

Not for the Winegard YA-1713. The net gain shown for 13 is 100% wrong compared to real world usage.

I have both the Y10-7-13 & YA-1713 & they are close performers from 7-13. No big drop-off on 13 with either model, although the Winegard is slightly better on 8, 11, 12 & 13 at this particular location.

Interesting. The two studies on the Canadian forum done by different people showed that the Y1713 had an edge on overall gain on Ch. 13.

It may be possible that they each had a defective antenna from the same lot. Last year I bought two Winegard HD 9032's about two weeks apart and both were from the same lot and contained the same defect. At least I was able to get a refund in each case.

At my location the Antennacraft YA 7-10-13 works quite a bit better than both of the Winegard Y1713's that I owned. Wish I had an explanation for this...

[John Candle]

As stated by another information provider on this same post the less gain at Ch 13 with the Winegard is a uncorrected 'modeling' error.

[Billiam]

As stated by another information provider on this same post the less gain at Ch 13 with the Winegard is a uncorrected 'modeling' error.

???. The two head to head models of these antennas showed the Antennacraft antenna took a steep drop in gain on Ch. 13, not the Winegard.

[John Candle]

Well there you go. And I will not debate these issues any more.

[richnerd]

OK, back from a business trip. Not trying to beat a dead horse but would like your input.

I spent a short time experimenting with a small outdoor antenna (borrowed-looks like an RCA ANT751R) while placed in the attic facing West. I picked up 16 very clear channels without no pre-amp and with >100 cable.

I have full intentions of installing an antenna mounted on a 5ft mast above roof-line.

Question - could someone please provide their best guess of what channels I'd receive if I go with one of the single recommended large antenna(s) like the HD7698P, HD7697P, HBU55...also interested in the CM2020 (60+ UFH/VHS, curious because of the wide beam the state it has).

Thanks

[Billiam]

If you use the HD7698 or HBU55 you'd get everything from the top on down to WTAE TV in the red. Everything below that is hit or miss. I used the Pending Digital signals to get an idea of what you might expect to see in the near future for channels.

Will you be using a rotor? If so, either of the antennas above will do just fine.

[John Candle]

Not Counting the digital sub channels , how many channels are received with the ANT751R. Try and identify buy station call sign. And virtual channel number.

[richnerd]

No, don't plan to use a rotor. That's part of my problem...understanding the beam spectrum if I install the antenna (currently assuming I would direct to 271 degrees).

I get (connected to one tv):

* red
uhf WPGH-DT 53.1 FOX PITTSBURGH, PA 284° 9.2 43
* red
uhf WPMY-DT 22.1 MNT PITTSBURGH, PA 284° 9.2 42
* red
vhf WPCW-DT 19.1 CW JEANNETTE, PA 283° 10.0 11
* red
uhf KDKA-DT 2.1 CBS PITTSBURGH, PA 283° 10.0 25
* red
vhf WQED-DT 13.1 PBS PITTSBURGH, PA 259° 7.5 13
* blue
uhf WPXI-DT 11.1 NBC PITTSBURGH, PA 270° 9.3 48

[richnerd]

Is it possible to get WTAE and all the others with one antenna?

[richnerd]

Ok, here's the latest question.

I still haven't purchased my final antenna and I'm still experimenting with the placement of the RCA ANT751R.

Here's the question: I moved the RCA antenna outside on a newly mounted 5' gable mast (clear shot generally fact West just in my valley) from inside the attic and I get a worst signal on the existing channels. I have now returned the antenna back inside.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

[John Candle]

This can go on forever. My origonal recommendation is the HD7698P with a CPA-19 preamp aimed at 271 degree magnetic compass. I have no more information.

[GroundUrMast]

I'm not sure I understand how or why the ANT-751 got into this situation. I would not expect the ANT-751 to be able to provide reception of WTAE. That you see lower signal quality with the ANT-751 outside is interesting... but irrelevant, because it's not enough antenna for your situation.

If you want to see WTAE, you need a high gain (therefor quite directional) antenna. The big Winegard HD7698P qualifies... as do the DB-8 / YA1713 combination.

I doubt you will have as much success in the attic... certainly not in the wet and snowy month of the year.

[richnerd]

The ANT-751 is only to test. I plan to purchase a larger antenna but I haven't gotten that far yet. I was working on the mounting location and relocating my home-run wiring. It's just when I moved the temp. ANT-751 to test (outside and about 7ft higher) I was surprised to get an over all signal loss across the board. After trying a number of things I finally installed the antenna in its original location (inside the attic) I got a much better signal inside the attic. BTW - I don't get WTAE with this antenna.

Currently have approx. 60-70ft of RG6 coax split to two tv's (additional 10-20ft). Hoping for a third tv down the road.

I understand I need a larger antenna I just had to purchase 4 tires for my vehicle so the larger antenna and pre-amp has been delayed a bit. It just concerned me of the signal loss when testing with my test antenna. I really don't have another good location outside.

Thanks for the replies.