Antenna Selection

[Ryan Van]

I'm requesting help in selecting an antenna for the following location...

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d3e47216faa5bed

When using the interactive map I adjusted the height as high as 35 feet without overcoming the hill interference in the 104 degree direction. However, I'm in a rental and I have to reuse a satellite dish mount which is approximately 10 to 15 feet above the ground (or place the antenna in the attic at about 20 to 25 feet above ground).

In addition to the hill there are several large pine trees approximately 75 yards from my antenna site in the 104 degree direction.

I initially ordered and installed a RCA-ANT751. With limited success (my goal is to obtain all major networks, I received FOX and NBC for major networks), I added a Winegard AP-8700, which helped my existing channels some but didn't add channels. I ended up returning the antenna but I kept the pre-amp.

I have one TV and the coax cable run is approximately 50 feet.

I have two questions...
1) What antenna would you recommend?
2) Is my pre-amp adequate or should I replace it with a different pre-amp.

I'm hoping to use one antenna (instead of one for UHF and one for VHF) to keep costs down.

Thank you for your time!
Ryan

[GroundUrMast]

The AP8700 has above average signal handling capacity, together with the built-in FM trap, I think it's fine. As you have already demonstrated though, an amplifier can't do the antennas job.

You are going to need quite a bit more antenna than the ANT-751. A Winegard HD7694P would be the smallest single antenna to cover the UHF and high-VHF from Queen Anne and Capitol Hills in Seattle. If you mount in the attic, I'd strongly suggest going larger. An HD7698P if it would fit.

If you can live without KCTS-PBS and KSTW-CW, An 8-bay panel such as the Antennas direct DB-8 or one of the similar competitors would mount on a satellite J-pole easier than the long boom 769X series. With KCPQ-Fox coming at you from the south, you may need a high-VHF like the Antennacraft Y-5713 which would work in the attic if the roof construction does not shield the RF. I would expect any antenna with the needed gain to see the Seattle stations would be too directional to see KCPQ reliably from 90° of axis.

[John Candle]

The Tv stations are at a very wide angle to the south and south east. This very wide angle of direction is not good for one single antenna reception. However I recommend a Channel Master CM4228HD 8 bay panel antenna with a Winegard HDP269 preamp aimed at about 154 degree magnetic compass. And YES KCTS and KSTW will be received. The antenna can be mounted outside or in the attic. Here are places to buy Tv antennas and etc. , http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www,starkelectronic.com , http://www.amazon.com , http://www.3starinc.com , Read and understand about , REAL Digital Broadcast Tv Channels , Virtual Digital Broadcast Tv Channels , Analog Broadcast Tv Channels , http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=695

[Ryan Van]

Thank you for the information!

I like the recommendation on the 8-bay, but I'm not sure which 8-bay antenna to go with. I like John's option because it requires one antenna but I'm concerned with this review of the CM4228HD (http://www.amazon.com/review/R2IJ1TD6DI2TZH/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R2IJ1TD6DI2TZH).

Has anyone had similar complaints in the past years? I see the review is from 2009 so it might not still be valid.

My kid would really like to watch Sesame Street again, so I want to ensure I order the correct antenna this time to prevent a further delay.

Thank you!
Ryan

[John Candle]

I have read this (review?) before. And the reviews and information that the review referrers to. This (review?) is a rambling hodgepodge of incomplete claims and misinformation and the author even goes so far as to state that he is not sure about his own claims and even goes further and states that he may not understand what he is reading and claiming. This (review?) is a big pile of hype that has a lot words and does not say anything.

[GroundUrMast]

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html indicates the older version of the CM4228 had some gain in the high-VHF band. If the data is accurate, there will be a 4 dB slope in the gain over the bandwidth of channel 9... that may pose a problem for some tuners and you're already facing the fading that comes with a 2-edge path. The author at HDTVPrimer also refers to knowledge of a new design coming to market which is consistent with the review you cite. The review you cite is almost impossible to verify as good bad or indifferent.

If KCTS-PBS is a must have, I would recommend using an antenna that would offer some certainty of reliable reception over the 2-edge path you're facing. So, back to the Winegard HD769X series.

Or, a combination of 8-bay panel plus a high-VHF auxiliary antenna if you are unable to get KCTS reliably using the UHF panel antenna. My previous high-VHF recommendation aimed at KCPQ-FOX. If you choose the panel antenna option and it fails to provide KCTS-PBS, I would suggest using either a Winegard YA-1713 or Antennacraft Y10713 aimed at Capitol Hill.

I'm wondering what your 10' or 15' prediction looks like... I suspect it will be slightly less optimistic than the 25'. Let's use a TVFR with the elevation or the installed antenna.

Finally, because you are renting, would a non-penetrating roof mount (http://www.3starinc.com/non-penetrating_dbs_dss_pitched_roof_mount_that_also_fits_directv_slimline_dish.html ) be viable in your situation?

[John Candle]

Ask GUM why he says , if you can live with out KSTW-DT 11 CW in the yellow with a signal strength of 25.9 NM(dB) and KCST-DT 9 PBS in the yellow with a signal strength of 25.7 NM (dB). When KONG , KOMO , KZJO and etc. have less signal strength then KSTW and KCTS. And you will receive KONG , KOMO , KZJO and other Tv stations.

[GroundUrMast]

Ask GUM why he says , if you can live with out KSTW-DT 11 CW in the yellow with a signal strength of 25.9 NM(dB) and KCST-DT 9 PBS in the yellow with a signal strength of 25.7 NM (dB). When KONG , KOMO , KZJO and etc. have less signal strength then KSTW and KCTS. And you will receive KONG , KOMO , KZJO and other Tv stations.

Quite simple... If a UVSJ is used to join a high-VHF and a UHF antenna, any VHF response from the UHF antenna would be suppressed. And clearly, the alternate suggestion was specific to reception of KCPQ, and made before the OP stated the priority of KCTS-PBS.

A U/V combo antenna aimed at Queen Anne and Capitol Hills should be expected to provide 9, 11 and the UHF stations. But, I doubt that any lone 8-bay will provide reliable reception of high-VHF 9 or 11 in this situation. The CM4228 modeled by HDTVPrimer would be the best bet of all the 8-bays... but I have my doubts and it's not clear that the CM4228HD currently on the market has will offer the gain published by HDTVPrimer. Here in the Puget Sound area, Douglas Fir and other evergreen trees provide 40' to 80' of foliage attenuation year-round... the 2-edge path in this case is full of that type of vegetation, and is not factored into the TVFool report.

I would like to be surprised, proven wrong, but I understand that the OP would like to have some confidence that their next antenna purchase will provide reliable results.

[John Candle]

Here is a evaluator that is moving closer to the truth using real test equipment. http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparisons/N-Bay_VHF_Shootout.htm , http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparisons/CM4228_vs_DB8_vs_HD8800.htm

[GroundUrMast]

Thus, the overall observation is that the C5's gain is about 6 to 7 dB below the Y10-7-13's, and if we accept that the Y10-7-13's gain is close to the published 10 dB, that would imply the CM4228HD's Hi-VHF gain is about 3 to 4 dB across the Hi-VHF Band.The published specs (http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/HD7694P.pdf) for the HD7694P indicate 9.6 dB of gain and 38° 1/2 power beam-width @ CH-9. If an HD769X series antenna will fit in the space available, it's clearly a superior one-antenna solution compared to a lone UHF panel antenna.

Now, if KCPQ is not received well through the side, a Channel Master CM0538 Join-Tenna (http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Channel_13_Join_Tenna_Antenna_Combiner_CM0583_p/cm-0583.htm) and the previously mentioned Antennacraft Y-5713 could provide KCPQ-Fox, if it is desired.

[John Candle]

Antenna aiming , http://kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html

[Ryan Van]

After reading both of your responses to my initial question, I decided to go with the Channel Master CM4228HD mounted outside (15 ft high) and worse case I would buy an additional antenna to pick up KCPQ-Fox. My jaw dropped when the CM4228HD was no better than my initial RCA-ANT751. I initially aimed the CM4228HD at 154 degree magnetic compass and received 13 stations. I then rotated to 104 degree magnetic compass and received 18 stations (with the RCA-ANT751 I received 19 stations at 104 degrees). I do pick up KCTS-PBS and KCPQ-Fox at 104 degrees which is a good, however I don't pick up KOMO-ABC. KING-NBC and KIRO-CBS barely have a signal and cut in and out (they are both slightly better with the pre-amp but still cut in and out). So my question is, what do I need to do to get PBS, Fox, ABC, NBC and CBS consistently? Should I try my attic, which is lots of work and sweat or do I need a different antenna? The Douglas fur are likely causing difficulty. I am using RG-6 coax that DirecTV installed for the previous tenants (about 45 feet with no splitters). My digital converter box is an RCA STB7766G1. My preamp is the Winegard AP-8700, which provides a slight improvement on all stations (I initially installed the antenna without the preamp). My budget is tight and I've nearly exhausted my funds buying the CM4228HD and a mount and my wife's patients is running short with my experiments.

[GroundUrMast]

What can you safely do to increase the mounting height of the antenna?

[John Candle]

I suggest point the CM4228 at 177 degree magnetic compass to the south and point the ANT751 at 104 degree magnetic compass to the south east. Separate coax from each antenna will go to the location of the Tv and a AB27RS remote control A/B antenna switch or a radio shack 15-1968 remote control A/B antenna switch will switch between the antennas. Mounting on the roof top will help.

[Ryan Van]

What can you safely do to increase the mounting height of the antenna?

I can mount the antenna in the attic. The rental company won't let me do anything else. As a side note, I adjusted my antenna height to 30 feet on the interactive map and the results were the same as I posted earlier.

[Ryan Van]

I suggest point the CM4228 at 177 degree magnetic compass to the south and point the ANT751 at 104 degree magnetic compass to the south east. Separate coax from each antenna will go to the location of the Tv and a AB27RS remote control A/B antenna switch or a radio shack 15-1968 remote control A/B antenna switch will switch between the antennas. Mounting on the roof top will help.

I returned the ANT751 so I could afford the CM4228. The antenna is currently mounted on the lower of two roof tops (it's mounted on the garage roof), my rental company will not allow me to drill in the roof at any locations. I currently modified the DirecTV mount to accommodate the CM4228.

[GroundUrMast]

As crazy at it may sound... try the antenna near ground level, in more than one location if possible. Also, try the attic.

[John Candle]

Here are mounts that have no drilling in the roof. http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html , http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html

[Ryan Van]

Success! Sort of... I have a couple more questions below.

First, on the success. I ended up moving the CM4228HD to the bottom of the mast on my roof and 4 of the 5 major networks had acceptable reception (compared to 2 at the top of the mast). I then tied the balun to the mast moving it behind the dipoles as described at HDTVPrimer (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html) and now I get 5 of the 5 major networks! I am getting some pixelation on 2 of the networks. What can I do to squeeze a little more signal out of my system? In an early post John mentioned using a Winegard HDP269 preamp instead of the Winegard AP-8700 preamp I'm currently using. Would exchanging preamps improve my signal (about 45 feet of coax and no splitters)? Would replacing the coax previously used by DirecTV improve my signal? If so, what coax would you recommend?

[GroundUrMast]

What happens when you remove the preamp and it's power inserter completely?

[Ryan Van]

What happens when you remove the preamp and it's power inserter completely?

When I completely remove the preamp from the system I get a slightly higher signal on my vhf channels and slightly lower signal on the uhf channels, based on my converter box signal strength "Bad to Good Signal" scale.

At the start of my test (with the preamp in the system) I was no longer getting ABC which was disappointing, but for the most part I was getting the other major networks with a little pixelation. Without the preamp in the system I was getting slightly more pixelation.

One other thought, does it matter than I'm using galvanized EMT conduit (i.e. magnetic) as a mast? I saw that Channel Master and a few other manufactures make galvanized steel masts so I figured it wouldn't interfere with reception, but that was just an assumption.

[GroundUrMast]

If your current preamp is returnable, the Antennas Direct CPA-19 will have better overload resistance and a bit less noise.

You're not describing an overloaded amplifier, so I would hope for slight improvement based on the subtle improvement in amplifier noise figure. Don't expect a big change, I'm simply looking for ways to get the most from what you have to work with.

EMT is fine... it won't affect the performance of the antenna. EMT is not likely to be as strong, but the antenna is not too big, don't sweat it. Antenna mast will also be ferrous and have similar magnetic properties.

[Ryan Van]

Yep, my current preamp is returnable. I just ordered an Antennas Direct CPA-19. Thanks for the advice, like you said I'm not expecting a big difference, I'm hoping for a little less pixelation.

One more question, how does wind effect reception (e.g. no impact, poor reception due to antenna movement, poor reception due to douglas fur movement)? When it was calm last evening and this morning I could pick up ABC, but during the day yesterday and today with the wind I get "no signal" for ABC.

[GroundUrMast]

Yep, my current preamp is returnable. I just ordered an Antennas Direct CPA-19. Thanks for the advice, like you said I'm not expecting a big difference, I'm hoping for a little less pixelation.

One more question, how does wind effect reception (e.g. no impact, poor reception due to antenna movement, poor reception due to douglas fur movement)? When it was calm last evening and this morning I could pick up ABC, but during the day yesterday and today with the wind I get "no signal" for ABC.

Wind in the trees can produce changing signal levels and reflection effects. Neither is going to help the tuner do it's job.

I see that KCPQ-13 has a construction permit for a 15 KW translator on Capitol Hill, next to KZJO, KSTW & KCTS . No idea of when to expect it to come online... And at that power level, I don't expect it to be usable for you behind the hill you're facing. I still think a high-VHF antenna in the attic would easily see the primary KCPQ transmitter on Gold Mountain south of you.

I'll be quite interested to hear how the CPA-19 performs for you. A lot is going to be asked of it.;)