Antenna (s) recommendation [Archive]

Insaneoctane

3-Jul-2019, 11:35 PM

First time poster and love what I'm reading on this site! I'm looking to possibly cut the cord, but I'm fairly far with mountains in the way. I'm really only looking to get the major networks to supplement my Netflix and Amazon content. I'm not sure if I can get away with just UHF or VHF or both. I am really hoping to find an antenna solution that I can mount in my attic. My home is 2 story, so the attic mount will be 25 to 30 feet up. I've been looking at just trying a clearstream 4max and seeing what that offers. Antenna direct recommended both a DB8-e Ultra Range UHF and Clearstream 5 Ultra Range VHF. I'm hoping to not go crazy. I have access in my attic to stand and I should be able to point the antenna East....
Appreciate all suggestions!

My tvfool report (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038abb0fed5c2)

Tower Guy

4-Jul-2019, 12:15 AM

I’m thinking that a Winegard HD 7694P or HD7698P with a preamp.

RMinNJ

4-Jul-2019, 12:18 AM

I dont know... I just went through this and the antennas I tried did not do well at all in the attic. Maybe your attic is different than mine. Its a shame because attic is a convenient and accessible place...

GroundUrMast

4-Jul-2019, 2:57 AM

You are not wrong to want to mount in the attic... The antenna life expectancy will be nearly unlimited. However, you need to be prepared for the possibility of disappointing results as most attics are subject to a variety of signal impairments. Roofing and insulating materials commonly attenuate or block signals significantly. The bottom line is, try it and see.

I agree with Tower Guy's suggestions, and would add the Winegard HD8200U and Channel Master Advantage 100 to the list for you to consider. Both of those antennas give you some possibility of seeing real channels 2 through 6 (something the 769XP types are not intended for). You would want to take the size of these antennas into consideration, they're large and may not fit in an attic, even a relatively large one.

I use an Antennas Direct DB8e and consider it to be among the best high-gain UHF antennas available. The CS5 is also an excellent antenna for real channels 7-13 (no intentional CH 2-6 capability though).

OTAFAN

4-Jul-2019, 7:38 AM

Here's your report from, https://www.rabbitears.info/

https://www.rabbitears.info/search.php?request=zip_search&zipcode=93021&miles=60&address=&lat=34.2942772&lon=-118.8829816&sorting=signal&dbtype=dBm&height=30

(It takes just under 30 seconds to load, a bit slow for some reason.....)

It looks much better than your TV Fool report. I think it might be more accurate since there seems to have been a lag in updated information for the TV Fool reports, as posted by some of the Techs on this forum.

If that is the case, probably all of the above recommendations would be acceptable, depending on what you actually are looking to receive. The gentlemen posters above are all very experienced in their fields and I would take their advice with gratitude.

Also, while you're on Rabbitears.Info website, check out the TV market listings for Los Angeles, and look specifically at the channels you want to receive in detail, especially the Longley-Rice maps. Those maps will really tell you how good you can expect your reception to be.

But in the final analysis, getting up either in your attic or roof (better choice), and hooking up an antenna to your television will certainly reveal your actual reception. It takes some time and effort to find out what works at your location.

Hope this helps and please report back with your findings when you can. I know it would be of interest to me and others.

All the best.....

P.S. Just looking at a few of the major LA stations on the Longley-Rice maps for your area, I think you will need a roof top antenna as high as practical and probably a preamp etc., for optimal reception in Moorpark, CA.

JoeAZ

4-Jul-2019, 12:17 PM

Having been to Moorpark to visit Carrera's Deli, I am fairly
familiar with the terrain. There is no way to have LOS to
Mt Wilson from the vast majority of Moorpark. Only the
extreme West and possibly South might have LOS.
Forget about the attic, it's not likely to provide consistent,
reliable reception. The Winegards mentioned previously
are the best way to go. Keep your RG6 cable as short as
possible to ONE tv to start. Walk your roof to find the best
spot using the TV signal meter, if you have one, for strongest
signals. Be sure to ground the antenna properly. It's lots
of work but you'll be happy with the results.......

Insaneoctane

6-Jul-2019, 4:45 PM

Thanks for the replies. I re-ran my address through rabbit ears and it's not nearly as good as the center of my zip code. See attached screenshot....
By the way, does it look like I need VHF if I only wanted major networks?

OTAFAN

6-Jul-2019, 8:00 PM

Zip codes usually cover larger areas than an exact address. You did the right thing to narrow down your reception quality.

JoeAZ knows your area and he's another experienced Tech on this forum. I would go with his recommendations too.

If rabbit73 will chime in on this thread, he could give you some visual aids that might help you achieve your goals. You could even PM him to keep your address secure, and he would be able to specify exactly what you need.

I'm not a Tech, but have learned so much on TV Fool from all these good chaps, that I try to pass on what I know works at my location here in SOCAL LA/OC. But to answer your question, I would say if you don't need low VHF real channels 2-6 and just want high VHF channels 7-13, then yes, you could get by with VHF high. But you do have a few major LA stations that broadcast on UHF, but show virtual VHF channels. So, it all depends on what you really want or need.

Let us know how it all works out for you. Take care, Insaneoctane…..

GroundUrMast

7-Jul-2019, 4:48 PM

If you opted for VHF only, you would likely get the ABC, FOX and MY affiliates. KNBC and KCBS would be unavailable though.

Insaneoctane

8-Jul-2019, 7:18 AM

Walk your roof to find the best
spot using the TV signal meter, if you have one, for strongest
signals.

Anyone care to suggest a good and affordable meter? Thinking $30 or under?

OTAFAN

8-Jul-2019, 7:41 AM

I think JoeAZ meant your TV signal meter on the television set in your house. Either that, or a small hand held TV you could use up on the roof to see where your best signal(s) strength location is.

If you use the first method, you would need to have a family member or friend down inside watching your TV signal meter, while you moved the roof top antenna around to figure out the optimal reception on the channels you're interested in. (You could do this solo, but given your location you'll be up and down your ladder A LOT).

He might have another idea about this, but I know from a few of his previous postings regarding this issue, he mentioned the above two methods.

GroundUrMast

8-Jul-2019, 4:13 PM

I have several SiliconDust HDHR tuners. The current model, https://www.silicondust.com/product/hdhomerun-duo/ is selling on Amazon for about $80. Older models should be available via ebay if you need to save $.

The signal metering function is quite useful for signal survey and antenna alignment. See http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=820

Toward the end of the thread I also share scripting code for recording on a Linux system. (No need to pay for DVR service)

Insaneoctane

8-Jul-2019, 4:55 PM

Thanks, I'll look on ebay for some used SiliconDust tuners....

Another question..... I'm struggling on the various retail websites (Amazon, WalMart, etc) to accurately understand the fully assembled dimensions of some of the recommended antennae. Anyone able to provide the fully assembled dimensions of some of the recommended antennae (ie Winegard HD8200U, Channel Master Advantage 100, etc). I'm confused because I'm hoping to just understand Height (without any added 'pole'), Width (probably the biggest dim?), and depth of the offerings....

JoeAZ

8-Jul-2019, 6:31 PM

i think joeaz meant your tv signal meter on the television set in your house. Either that, or a small hand held tv you could use up on the roof to see where your best signal(s) strength location is.

If you use the first method, you would need to have a family member or friend down inside watching your tv signal meter, while you moved the roof top antenna around to figure out the optimal reception on the channels you're interested in. (you could do this solo, but given your location you'll be up and down your ladder a lot).

He might have another idea about this, but i know from a few of his previous postings regarding this issue, he mentioned the above two methods.

Exactly!!!!!!!

rickbb

8-Jul-2019, 7:19 PM

I use a small USB tuner in a laptop with a 6 foot coax cable.

Might not be what you're looking for to use once, but I've found it very useful to locate the best location on a roof.

Insaneoctane

8-Jul-2019, 8:28 PM

The Winegard HD8220U on Amazon is $145
The Channel Master CM-3020 is $109

The CM-3020 is about 1 foot less wide (better for "fitting"). If the HD8220U is known to be better then I'll spend the extra $36 on it. But more money isn't always better.....Do you guys think it matters for my application?

JoeAZ

8-Jul-2019, 8:57 PM

Insaneoctane

9-Jul-2019, 12:55 AM

The Channel Master 3018, available at Lowe's and Home Depot should
be sufficient. They cost about $80.00 and cover lo/hi Vhf and UHF.
Is your roof made of concrete tile or metal??? If yes, your chances of
getting good attic reception are nearly ZERO. The biggest, best antenna
won't overcome the issues involved with attic reception. Attic reception
is limited to areas where signals are very strong.

Thank you for that feedback. I've accepted that it's about a 90% chance that the attic will NOT work for my application.

I also appreciate you letting me know that the CM 3018 will be sufficient as it will save my $20 over the 3020 (and $60 vs Winegard), but what is the difference? The dimensions between the 3020 and 3018 look identical, so I'm just curious. If I thought the 3020 would be better, I'd certainly choose that...but, not knowing the difference and having you recommend the 3018, I'm fine with that if there is no benefit. Thanks in advance!

OTAFAN

9-Jul-2019, 7:46 AM

Here's the link for Channel Master antennas:

https://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Antennas_s/35.htm

Here's the link for Winegard antennas:

www.winegard.com/hdtv-outdoor-antennas?q=offair

Here's a couple YouTube video links that discusses antennas, TVs and more from a gentleman who installs antennas in Pennsylvania. It's slated toward the consumer market, so it might be of interest to you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRsQDcehmB4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhZ7H-cwFCk

If you're going to buy the CM3018 to save some bucks as JoeAZ recommended, the technical specifications are just slightly less gain than the CM3020. (You can compare the two through the link above).

If you're still considering one of the largest antennas on the block, the Winegard HD8200U, GroundUrMast gives it his endorsement, along with the CM3020.

The Winegard antennas mentioned by Tower Guy above including preamps, I'm sure will serve you well for what you decide you want.

They all know their business and would not be recommending them if they did not think the antennas would work in your more difficult reception location in Moorpark, CA. You have those pesky 1 & 2 Edge signal path issues because of the Mountain range(s) in your way, unfortunately. That's why you'll have to get up on your roof and find the "sweet spot" for best signal strength. Like JoeAZ said, "It's lots of work, but you'll be happy with the results....."

Remember: When up on the roof, safety first, last and always! Get someone to help you if you can.

Looking forward to your final results. Please let us know how it all turns out.....

Best to you!

Insaneoctane

9-Jul-2019, 4:49 PM

jrgagne99

9-Jul-2019, 7:17 PM

Also struggling with the standard chimney mounting straps. My chimney is stucco and I'm worried that as I cinch the straps down they will crumble or break the stucco. Seems like they need to offer some slightly compliant padding for the corners for stucco?

Maybe use some vertically-oriented pieces of 2" aluminum angle-iron to distribute/carry the load at the corners.

JoeAZ

9-Jul-2019, 8:45 PM

Hopefully I will decide on the antenna soon. One thing that has me slowed down right now is that Im now considering rooftop vs attic (where I started this thread) and the grounding requirements are making the installation job much much more complicated. I'm starting to consider maybe just grounding the mast and coax and possibly skipping the 6 gauge to breaker as that is an entire new level of PIA....

Also struggling with the standard chimney mounting straps. My chimney is stucco and I'm worried that as I cinch the straps down they will crumble or break the stucco. Seems like they need to offer some slightly compliant padding for the corners for stucco?

I tried and tried to attach photos of a stucco mounted antenna
I recently installed but I keep getting a message that I'm over
the 500 mb limit. In any event, I would suggest you go into your attic
and survey the inside of the stucco chimney. You probably have 2x4's
at the four corners. If you cut another 2x4 about 2-3 feet long and
put it on the inside of the chimney, you can use a "Y" style mount.
One side of the mount will go into the corner 2x4's and the other side
of the mount will screw into the 2x4 you placed behind the stucco
in the attic. Hope this makes sense. Grounding the mast and cable,
while not perfect is certainly better than nothing at all.

Insaneoctane

9-Jul-2019, 9:19 PM

I tried and tried to attach photos of a stucco mounted antenna
I recently installed but I keep getting a message that I'm over
the 500 mb limit. In any event, I would suggest you go into your attic
and survey the inside of the stucco chimney. You probably have 2x4's
at the four corners. If you cut another 2x4 about 2-3 feet long and
put it on the inside of the chimney, you can use a "Y" style mount.
One side of the mount will go into the corner 2x4's and the other side
of the mount will screw into the 2x4 you placed behind the stucco
in the attic. Hope this makes sense. Grounding the mast and cable,
while not perfect is certainly better than nothing at all.

Interesting. Did you fasten the 2x4 ahead of time, or let the bolts/screws from the Y bracket suspend it from the outside?

JoeAZ

9-Jul-2019, 11:48 PM

Interesting. Did you fasten the 2x4 ahead of time, or let the bolts/screws from the Y bracket suspend it from the outside?

Actually, I did the following:
I cut a 3 foot long 2x4 and drilled two large holes in it about
two feet apart for the two "Y" brackets.
I brought the 2x4 and a drill to the chimney and using the
two pre-drilled holes, placed the 2x4 against the stucco and drilled
through it. I purchased two 6 inch long lag bolts with washers and
screws. I put a washer and lag bolt through the 2x4 and taped the
heads securely to the 2x4. I brought the 2x4 into the attic and
aligned the lag bolts to the pre-drilled holes in the stucco. I then
pushed the lag bolts/2x4 through the holes. The lag bolts were
long enough to hold the 2x4 until I could get to the roof.
Once on the roof, I attached a large washer, "Y" bracket, another
washer and NUT. I attached the other side of both "Y" brackets
to the corner studs using wood lag screws with washers.
Because it can get windy here, I supplemented the install with
a U-bolt on the mast and two steel "arms" fastened to the top
of the chimney. Those arms are fastened into the studs inside
the attic.

Insaneoctane

10-Jul-2019, 3:52 AM

@JoeAZ, I think you meant:
"Once on the roof, I attached a large washer, "Y" bracket, another
washer and [NUT]."

I read it several times confused until I made that assumption...

Tim

11-Jul-2019, 1:28 AM

Also struggling with the standard chimney mounting straps. My chimney is stucco and I'm worried that as I cinch the straps down they will crumble or break the stucco. Seems like they need to offer some slightly compliant padding for the corners for stucco?

Many years ago I used some 6 inch lengths of 1/16" thick pieces of 1-1/2" aluminum angle on the corners of of a stucco chimney and it worked fine. You can find it in your local big box home improvement store. A four foot section will give you eight 6 inch pieces.

Insaneoctane

11-Jul-2019, 8:49 PM

A Couple Mast Questions....

Standard CM masts are 5' and 18-gauge 1.25" diameter tubing. Seems WAY too weak.
I was thinking of galvanized pipe available at my local Home Depot. They have 10' lengths of 1" and 1.25" which are much thicker than 18 gauge. They also have thicker and bigger fence posts. My calculations show that if I apply a 10 lbs load to the end of a 5 foot tube:

1-1/4" 18 ga. displaces 1.21"
1" galv pipe displaces 0.25"
1-1/4" galv pipe displaces 0.10"
1-7/8" 16ga displaces 0.17" (fence post)

I can't imagine using the 18 ga spaghetti noodle, do people use those? What do you guys recommend? Would anyone put the antenna on a 10' mast (1.25" galv pipe) attached to the chimney? Would I even need that? I mean if 5' mast on my roof doesn't work, will 10' really matter? Fence post comes as 8' might be a good option?

Next.....

If I secure a mast solidly to the chimney, and find the "best" orientation and tighten the CM-3020 (arrives today) to the mast tightly, will wind or anything else change my "lock"? I'm assuming that I'm NOT going to have to continuously adjust things up on my roof, but I have zero experience with an antenna and wind!

Tim

12-Jul-2019, 3:14 AM

Would anyone put the antenna on a 10' mast (1.25" galv pipe) attached to the chimney? Would I even need that? I mean if 5' mast on my roof doesn't work, will 10' really matter?

A 5' difference in height can sometimes mean all the difference in the world between a poor signal and a good signal. Every installation is different.

My mast material of choice is 1-1/4" galvanized steel electrical conduit. It has an outside diameter of 1-1/2" and comes in 10' lengths.

It is possible for an antenna to shift in direction in a really bad storm, but if everything is securely tightened I have found them to be trouble free.

Insaneoctane

12-Jul-2019, 10:01 PM

Tim, thanks for your reply. I'm honestly surprised that EMT is acceptable since it's "bendable" by design and is only 0.065" thick! It's certainly affordable though....

Tim

12-Jul-2019, 10:20 PM

Tim, thanks for your reply. I'm honestly surprised that EMT is acceptable since it's "bendable" by design and is only 0.065" thick! It's certainly affordable though....

The conduit is about 33% thicker than the 18 gauge steel used in the TV masts...and the TV mast is certainly acceptable for most applications...I have a small VHF ham radio antenna mounted on top of two 10 ft sections of TV mast and have never had any issues with it. I have also seen many TV antennas mounted on a 21 ft length of 1-3/8" chain link fence top rail. Most of it is commonly 17 gauge steel.

Insaneoctane

13-Jul-2019, 4:56 AM

I suspect that your choice is the correct one....
Upon further analysis using this online deflection calculator:
https://www.engineering.com/calculators/beams.htm

Your recommended EMT bends 0.19" at 5 ft with 10 lbs. At home Depot a 10' length costs $18.50. Weight is 11 lbs.

1-1/4" galvanized pipe (0.14" thickness) bends 0.12" at 5 ft with 10 lbs. At home Depot a 10' length costs $38.87. Weight is 22 lbs.

The stiffer pipe isn't justified IMO confirming your choice. Thanks again for your information.

Insaneoctane

15-Jul-2019, 9:58 PM

Well, thanks for all the help on this thread folks!
Unfortunately, I didn't get very good news this weekend. I first assembled my CM-3020 (Advantage 100) in my second story bedroom and pointed out the window towards the Mt. Wilson towers that broadcast LA signals. I hooked it up to a small TV I've got and got ZERO channels. That was quite depressing. I then disassembled it and reassembled it outside, mounted it to a 10' mast and held it on to of an 8' ladder. That was a funny looking scene, I'm sure. I tried pointing it in various Eastward directions and was able to tune from 12 to 25 digital channel this way, but they were very very poor reception, and mostly black or solid pictures. I did get a soccer game and Telemundo or something else I wasn't interested in, after being on the ladder for about 45 minutes we called it. I know that things would improve with additional height, but I was aiming towards a fairly clear/unobstructed view of the mountain ranges between myself and the tower. But after seeing the size of this advantage 100 (I knew it was big, but WOW), knowing it was going to be another 5' to 10' above the chimney, the wife politely said "enough". So, I'm having to admit defeat here guys. Thanks for all the advice, I really appreciate your inputs. It's really a shame my location is so challenging, because I was ready to cut the cable...it just wasn't in the cards this time. Good luck to others who read this thread with similar aspirations, I sure hope you have better results than me!