Western Pa antenna questions.

[blackstone]

Thank you for allowing me to be here and thank you in advance for any help or advice.
I am Approximately 45 miles north east of Pittsburgh Pa and cut the cord 3-1/2 years ago.
Due to my elevation, I get pretty good reception with my 25+ year old directional analog antenna with no rotor.
I get stations I shouldn't get and don't get some that I should.
We operate 3 TVs from that one antenna so a rotor would make one better but the others worse.

Here is my TVFool report link:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a41ff2c2dc4a

I'd like to upgrade but not sure which way to go.

The omni-directionals seem attractive to me but I've read that they may not be all they're cracked up to be.
The main TV is a lower end Element.
I run coax from the antenna into a Channel Master booster in the basement where it splits.
If I get a new antenna, I'd probably move the location so that it would be 10' higher.
If it would help, I can list the stations I get and ones that I think I should get but can't.

Thanks, again, in advance.

[jrgagne99]

You should steer clear of an omni in my opinion.

An antenna with VHF-hi + UHF elements such as the Winegard 7698P aimed at 228 magnetic should get you all the major networks from Pittsburgh, down through WPNT. The Winegard 7694P is smaller, and might work too, but WPNT might not come in.

What model is your "booster"? If it is a 7778, you should move it to the mast to amplifiy signal before the cable losses. You shouldn't need a powered splitter. Start with 1 tv to keep it simple at first. Then add a 3-way passive splitter and only go to powered if you need it. If you want Altoona stations too, you'll need a rotor too. But altoona signals are pretty weak (except WTAJ), so buyer beware.

[blackstone]

Thank you for your reply.

I have never been able to get WTAE and WPNT used to come in but doesn't now.
WPXI only comes in sometimes.

WWCP from Altoona is pretty reliable and my only source for ABC.
WJAC from Johnstown is clear but loses signal more often.

I shouldn't be getting Steubenville stations but they are some of my better ones

The amp is a Channel Master CM3414 4-Port Distribution Amplifier for Cable and Antenna Signal.

Although I agree that a rotor will definitely improve my performance, I am concerned about the second TV.

That is my wife's and we don't, usually, watch the same things.

Will the Winegard VHF-hi allow me to get WQED (13)?

[Tower Guy]

WQED will move from channel 13 to channel 2 in 2020. You will need a large all channel antenna such as the Winegard 8200u or Channel Master 3020.

[blackstone]

Thanks, Tower Guy.
A while back I saw they were moving but didn't remember if they were moving up or down

[jrgagne99]

Can you tell us more about your current "25+ year old" analog antenna, and where is it aimed? What model is it, mounting height, field of view (any trees?) etc.

BTW, there is no such thing as an "analog" or "digitial" or "HDTV-ready" antenna. That is all marketing mumbo-jumbo.

I think you will be surprised at what you pull in when you mount some real horsepower up there like the HD8200U or the CM-3020 or 5020.

[blackstone]

I'll see if I can get a picture of the present antenna.
I just assumed there was analog and digital antennas.

The height is about 20'.
There are no obstructions.
Trees, buildings or hills.
There is one tree @ 50' north that has no affect,.

I can't tell you what model it is.
I'm senile and I bought it 25 years ago, m/l.

I want to think it's a Channel Master and it was one with higher mileage ratings.
It was a VHF and the UHF was an add on.

My elevation is pretty high.
I'm on the second highest place in Armstrong County.

I couldn't find my compass which was unreliable.
North would move 45 degrees.
Just ordered anew, better one.
But, I'm somewhere between 210-235.

I realize that's a big window.

(I have a picture but don't know how to add it)

[blackstone]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kHBpQBfFRdwSmn283

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPy8UMeXz2PI-MeH2aV9yIukTaiYaWTykhaeYpj

[blackstone]

That didn't work for the pic

[blackstone]

This antenna always got a lot of stations.
Just not all the time.

For example, last night, with clear skies, I was losing signal to some of the stations.
I did a scan.
Didn't get those stations but picked up (briefly) Columbus, OH which has to be close to 200 air miles and a Youngstown station I only get infrequently.

[rabbit73]

That didn't work for the picI got the first one to work, but not the second one.

You can click on the photo in your album for a share link like this one:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNcQH5E3tffnZ9ywk9gXHyXtDiw-sP8W2zvNu_ZpQSNniYYlUJmAIjKwutZubKotw/photo/AF1QipMeABMhTkn7u_oncZB2AT43HfZDkmuz-ZdRnrZ7?key=dnk1RGRXRjdJY3M4Z2FlUTdzX2xKMTY3RlRkVl93

You can also upload the photo as an attachment for your post, using Go Advanced, but it has to be smaller than 1024 x 1024. Your image is 1836 x 3264 pixels, so I edited it, gave you a credit line, uploaded it as an attachment, and then added it as an image to my post.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2880&stc=1&d=1505256907

This smaller image shows more of the tree in front of the antenna;

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2881&stc=1&d=1505257968

[jrgagne99]

That looks like a metal roof in your picture. I wonder if that affects reception. More height, which will get your farther away from the roof, probably can't hurt. My concern has to do with the age of the antenna, but more importantly the coax. I've heard that the coax performance can degrade over time, especially at connections. I would try switching to a high-quality RG-6 (you prabably have RG-59), and use new connections, perhaps before even trying a new antenna. When you do this, take some signal readings at the bottom of the down-lead first, then change the coax and re-do the readings to see if there is an improvement.

I don't know if antenna performance itself degrades over time (e.g. 25 years). I'd be interested to hear what other folks have to say about that.

[blackstone]

Thanks, Rabbit73.
That tree is at least 200' (or more) away.

Hadn't thought about the metal roof.

Can't remember if we cut the cord before or after we put the roof on

[blackstone]

When we put the new mast up a couple years ago, I noticed some oxidation on the connections.
Tried to clean them some but, maybe, not as good as it could have been.

I think I put new coax up at that time.
It's probably only a couple years old.
Raising the antenna at it's present location may give me challenges supporting it.

I had considered moving it to the peal of the house which is 20' to the left in the picture.
.
I would be able to gain another 5' or more and better support the mast and be higher than any part of the house.

Also, how do I measure the signal?
I've seen others use their TIVO but I don't have one.

My TV channel feature only gives me strong, good or weak

[jrgagne99]

I think I put new coax up at that time.
It's probably only a couple years old.


Ok, maybe it's not the coax then.

I would be able to gain another 5' or more and better support the mast and be higher than any part of the house.


This seems like a good idea if you can manage it.

Also, how do I measure the signal? I've seen others use their TIVO but I don't have one. My TV channel feature only gives me strong, good or weak
Check your manual(s). Many TVs have a more quantitative indication. These are often numerical values (rather than words like "strong", "good", or "weak"), but unfortunately the numbers are usually given as unitless so you don't really know what they're actually measuring anyway. Also, these numerical metrics are not generally comparable between brands and sometimes not even between model numbers within a given brand. There are some good ones out there though. One of the best ones I've seen is on my Sony Bravia, which shows the signal-to-noise-ratio in dB. An SNR of 15 dB or greater is typically needed to get picture. If you're thinking of a new TV soon, and want a better indication of signal quality, I recommend this model. (It had one of the best pictures of the displays on the wall at Best Buy as well...)

[blackstone]

This TV is only a couple years old.
My wife is a bargain shopper so a really good TV is out of the question.

I'm, tentatively, getting the house sided in late fall.
That may be the time to move the antenna

Why is the Channel Master 3020 so much cheaper than the Winegard 8200u?

[jrgagne99]

Why is the Channel Master 3020 so much cheaper than the Winegard 8200u?

Not sure why the 3020 is ~$70 and the Winegard is $120 (amazon prices). The Winegard looks beefier, maybe that's part of it. BTW, It looks like your old antenna IS the CM-3020 though, no?

[blackstone]

It's been so long that I just can't be sure.
I know I tried to get a good one because it was for my mom who didn't get out much due to age.

I'm guessing weather is a factor, too.
For example, if it's rainy, I lose a lot of stations.

And I get WJAC from Johnstown and WWCP from Altoona pretty well, usually.
But not the last couple days.

Sometimes, I can get 31 stations after a scan and sometimes only 19.
Average is 23-25.
They don't all always display, though.

[rabbit73]

I'm guessing weather is a factor, too.
For example, if it's rainy, I lose a lot of stations.That is a classic symptom of trees in the signal path.

What direction is the antenna aimed in the photo?

[blackstone]

Guessing without a compass.
215-240.
New compass coming tomorrow or Friday that may be able to find north.
The last one varied by 30- degrees.

There are trees.
But, at least 100 yards away in that direction.
Or more.
I am slightly below the crest of a wooded hill, maybe 1/8th mile in the direction the antenna is pointing

Except for one tree across my driveway 50' almost north of the antenna, I am pretty clear for a ways around my house.
There are trees within 100" south and east.

Hope this is helpful info.

Thanks, again

[rabbit73]

I have never been able to get WTAE and WPNT used to come in but doesn't now.
WPXI only comes in sometimes.

WWCP from Altoona is pretty reliable and my only source for ABC.
WJAC from Johnstown is clear but loses signal more often.

I shouldn't be getting Steubenville stations but they are some of my better onesWWCP and WJAC are coming from the SE, but you say your antenna is aimed SW.

I don't mean to be insulting, but which end of the antenna in the photo above do you think is the front of the antenna that you aim at the transmitters, the end at the left or the end at the right?

Please look at the photo in the PM (Private Message) I sent to you and tell me if I have the right house.

[blackstone]

No insult taken.
I'm not the sharpest knife in this drawer.

I have always pointed the narrow end towards the signal.

In the picture posted above, the right side is W or wSW

[blackstone]

Also, if you look at the green lines in the picture you PMed, starting at the left.

The top left line is a faint green, then there are 2 solid green lines.

The second solid line is a close approximation to the direction my antenna is pointing

[rabbit73]

No insult taken.
I'm not the sharpest knife in this drawer.

I have always pointed the narrow end towards the signal.

In the picture posted above, the right side is W or wSW

Good. Thank you for the clarification.

[rabbit73]

Also, if you look at the green lines in the picture you PMed, starting at the left.

The top left line is a faint green, then there are 2 solid green lines.

The second solid line is a close approximation to the direction my antenna is pointingThat looks good to me. What confused me was there were no leaves on the trees across the road in the satellite view.

[blackstone]

Hard to say when that image was taken

[rabbit73]

This is the image you said I could post, which shows the green signal lines:

https://i.imgur.com/a7xFuz1.jpg

[blackstone]

For anyone who may be interested, there are 3 green lines on the left of the picture.
One faint at the top and 2 heavier.
Including the faint line, the 3rd line down is a close approximation to where my antenna is pointing.

Whatever direction that is

[rabbit73]

I tried different antenna heights, and it helps with some channels because of the rough terrain:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2882&stc=1&d=1505350619

[blackstone]

Thank you.
Not sure what it's telling me unless the hills block or diffuse the signal?

[rabbit73]

Not sure what it's telling me unless the hills block or diffuse the signal?Yes, that is exactly what happens.

The tvfool software for a report doesn't know about the trees or other ground clutter; it uses changes in elevation along the signal path to predict what will happen to the signal on its way to your antenna.

[blackstone]

Is there a solution or something I live with?

In years past, WPXI came in reliably.
Now, maybe 50% of the time.

Also, up until a week or so ago, WJAC (Johnstown) and WWCP (Altoona) were also pretty reliable.

I can move the antenna slightly southward a few degrees and pick them up.
However, I lose some other stations.

I want my cake and eat it, too.

Last night I did a scan and got 31 stations.
Not all of them displayed well due to pixilation, specifically, WJAC.
WWCP came in well

[jrgagne99]

I think you need to move the antenna around a bit (left, right, higher, whatever) to try and find better spots for reception. As rabbit will tell you, the best spot for reception is not necessarily the most convenient or aesthetically pleasing. It's easier with two people. One to hold the antenna and one at the TV checking signal strength.

[blackstone]

Thanks, jrgagne99.

The antenna has been in that exact spot for 60 years.
If it was good enough for my dad, it should be good enough for me.

Just kidding.

When I replaced the mast a year or so ago, I increased the height a few feet

[rabbit73]

Is there a solution or something I (can) live with?Yes, but you will not like it.
In years past, WPXI came in reliably.
Now, maybe 50% of the time.The trees are growing.
Also, up until a week or so ago, WJAC (Johnstown) and WWCP (Altoona) were also pretty reliable.

I can move the antenna slightly southward a few degrees and pick them up.
However, I lose some other stations.Your antenna is very directional. If you aim it for the SW channels, the SE channels will be too weak. If you aim it for the SE channels, the SW channels will be too weak.
I want my cake and eat it, too.Of course, we all do.

You need a rotator (which you don't want) or two antennas, one for each direction.

But before you do that, you should try a preamp at the antenna, as suggested by jrgagne99 in post #2. A preamp at the antenna is much more effective than a booster down below.

How long is the coax from the antenna to the CM3414 in the basement?
Although I agree that a rotor will definitely improve my performance, I am concerned about the second TV.

That is my wife's and we don't, usually, watch the same things.If your wife's favorite channels are all in the same direction, just make sure her TV is connected to the antenna for that direction. If your wife's channels are in two directions, it gets complicated. You will then need two coax lines to her TV and an A/B switch. An alternative would be to connect the second antenna to a separate tuner, with its output connected to the aux input of the TV.

If there is only one channel from the second antenna, then it could be combined into one coax with a custom (expensive) single channel inserter.
Last night I did a scan and got 31 stations.
Not all of them displayed well due to pixilation, specifically, WJAC.
WWCP came in wellFor best results, the antenna must be aimed at the transmitter; splitting the difference will not work for you.

[blackstone]

Not arguing the point because I don't know but recent past results are different.
Just stating my personal experience.

I apologize and not trying to be obstinate.

Your antenna is very directional. If you aim it for the SW channels, the SE channels will be too weak. If you aim it for the SE channel, the SW channels will be too weak.

That is one of the many things that confuse me.
Until a week or two ago, these channels came in adequately 80+% of the time.
I have not adjusted the direction in several months.

I know a rotor will improve reception.
But, how do I get performance from the 2 separate TVs that want to watch different stations?

For example one wants to watch WJAC and the other WPGH?

Another point is where the heck is north?
Apparently it moves around here on Peach Hill.

Just got my new better compass and anxiously went outside to get a true bearing of which way my antenna is pointed.

North moves 30-45 degrees while I'm holding the compass.

My best guess is I'm pointing 230 or so but who knows?

[rabbit73]

Not arguing the point because I don't know but recent past results are different.
Just stating my personal experience.I understand.

The change in reception could be for more than one reason. The antenna might not be doing as well as when it was new and the trees are growing higher.
I apologize and not trying to be obstinate.There is no need for you to apologize. We understand that you want good reception on all TVs, but there is no easy fix for reception from two different directions at your location.

Many of your signals are weak, which requires an antenna with a lot of gain. But, a high gain antenna is VERY directional.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2883&stc=1&d=1505428537
That is one of the many things that confuse me.
Until a week or two ago, these channels came in adequately 80+% of the time.
I have not adjusted the direction in several months.Trees like to grow taller in the summer. If the reception gets better after the leaves fall, it was the trees. If it doesn't get better, then it might be the antenna.
I know a rotor will improve reception.
But, how do I get performance from the 2 separate TVs that want to watch different stations?By making sure that each TV is connected to the right antenna for that TV.
For example one wants to watch WJAC and the other WPGH?WJAC NBC is SE; WPGH Fox is SW.
Another point is where the heck is north?
Apparently it moves around here on Peach Hill.Just use the green signal lines on the satellite photo. They are oriented to true north, which is at the top of the photo.
Just got my new better compass and anxiously went outside to get a true bearing of which way my antenna is pointed.

North moves 30-45 degrees while I'm holding the compass.Something is affecting your compass, like metal or another magnet. It should be more steady than that. Keep in mind that the compass points to magnetic north. There is a difference of 9 or 10 degrees between true north and magnetic north at your location.
My best guess is I'm pointing 230 or so but who knows?The green signal lines know, use them as a reference with a landmark.

[rabbit73]

Can you give us a list of channels that are important to your wife so that we can see what direction they are in?

Here is a satellite image of your location with a 360 degree protractor to show azimuth directions of your signals:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2884&stc=1&d=1505436014

Does that help?

[blackstone]

My wife wants the 4 major networks.
We have several choices for 3 of them.

ABC is kind of skinny.

Me, I watch the "sub" stations.
I like to watch Comet which is only available on 6-3 and Cozi, Movies and Retro which is only available on 60-1, 60-2 and 60-3.

Just use the green signal lines on the satellite photo. They are oriented to true north, which is at the top of the photo.


That's where I always thought North was but neither of 2 compasses point near there with any regularity.

I guess my magnetic personality affects the compasses.

[blackstone]

Just an update, of sorts.

I, now, have a helper and hope to move the antenna higher.
I have 2 more sections of mast.


The leaves are gone but reception has diminished and I am receiving fewer and fewer stations on my main TV.

There are 3 TVs in the house connected to the antenna and all get different stations.
The main TV is an Element and it is @ 2-3 years old.

Do you think some of the issues are related to the TV?
The other TVs are Dynex.

None are top of the line.

Thank you for any inputs

[jrgagne99]

Do you think some of the issues are related to the TV?
The other TVs are Dynex.
Possibly. My buddy had a situation in which adding the second TV killed reception on the the first one. Simply unplugging the coax from the back of the second TV restored reception to the first one. He ended up replacing the second TV and that fixed it.


It sounds like you should simplify your setup until you get the reception figured out. Reduce to just one TV, and use short run of new RG-6 (50 feet or less) between the TV and the antenna. Use a buddy to find the best location and aim for the antenna. You might want to use a mast-mounted pre-amp during this exercise, but with a short run of coax and no splitters, the benefit will be small (less than 3dB of SNR is lost over 50-ft of RG-6). Simplicity probably outweighs amplification at this stage. Once you have single-TV reception optimized, then it is time to add in the complexities back in to your setup. Split to your three TVs, ad coax, etc. This is where the pre-amp will likely be needed, however you should confirm the pre-amp isn't going to hurt you, by using it on the single-TV setup before adding the splitters, additional coax runs, TVs, etc.

[blackstone]

Update and new issues that I hope you will continue to offer your advice.

Thank you in advance and I apologize that this is so long.
Just want to give as much detail as I can that may help.

I bought a DB8e antenna from Antenna Direct.(25% off Black Friday sale)
I learned after buying that this is not a good antenna for VHF so was advised to keep my old antenna for VHF and use the new antenna for UHF.

Added 2 sections of mast and attempted to install at the peak of my house but there was too much weight and bent the mast.
Re-installed at original location with the VHF antenna at the top with the DB8e below on the same mast.
The VHF is @20-21'' and the UHF is 15-17' and about 4-5' above my steel roof.

The old VHF works perfectly and I get all the channels I could expect to get or hope for.

The UHF is another matter and I have talked to Antenna Direct support quite a few times.
I have pointed and scanned quite a few times (20-30?. Or more)
I have had the panels parallel and also pointed in different directions.
I am doing better with the panels in different directions.

I don't think I have gained any stations that I didn't previously get.
As of now, I have one panel at approx. 194 and the other at approx. 215.

I don't get stations that I would have hoped or expected to get with a new antenna.

Here's what I don't get:
RF---->Virtual---> Call letters
51 4 WTAE
48 11 WPXI
42 22 WPNT
38 16 ION

Weak to half decent
43 53 WPGH

Good with the present setting
?? 6 WJAC
Best:
25 2 KDKA

New coax from the new antenna (50')
I have tried going directly from the antenna combiner box into my amp without using splitters/combiners...

If the metal roof is the issue, I could (possibly) move the DB8e about 20' from the house to a wooden light pole.

Today I'm going to try an experiment.
I have one of those cheap, motorized 150 mile antennas with a rotor.
I plan to try it on the side of the house and eliminate the DB8e just to see if it works or improves anything.
It won't be as high as the DB8e.

Once again, thank you for any suggestions and patience
It is a Polaroid AMA-1850P

[blackstone]

My mini experiment with the motorized cheapy.
It's standing about 6'

Manually adjusting without the rotor I got RF 51, RF 38, RF 43 and RF 25 as well as 32? Virtual 6 from Johnstown
Those weren't very fine adjustments that I could make with the rotor.

Not sure what this is telling me.

[blackstone]

And yet another of my brilliant (ahem) thoughts.

What if I used the motorized antenna solely to get WJAC (Virtual 6) from Johnstown and then focused the DB8e on getting the Pittsburgh stations?

Direct suggested I aim it at 205 (both panels).

I would need to know how to connect all these to my amp that only has 1 in and 4 out.
Would a 4 way splitter work or is there a 3 way or 4 way combiner?

Thank you

[rabbit73]

My mini experiment with the motorized cheapy.
It's standing about 6'

Manually adjusting without the rotor I got RF 51, RF 38, RF 43 and RF 25 as well as 32? Virtual 6 from Johnstown
Those weren't very fine adjustments that I could make with the rotor.

Not sure what this is telling me.Your Polaroid antenna has a built-in preamp. It is telling you that your Channel Master antenna needs a preamp up near the antenna.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2986&d=1512180723

The photo of the Polaroid antenna shows the front director folded forward, which is odd. And the reflector at the rear is unusual; I can't tell what it is made out of.

The similar QFX antenna has the front director folded back like the rest of the directors.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2987&d=1512182545

I would need to know how to connect all these to my amp that only has 1 in and 4 out.
Would a 4 way splitter work or is there a 3 way or 4 way combiner?Combining antennas with a splitter in reverse doesn't always work. You just have to try it.

[blackstone]

Thanks for your feedback, Rabbit73.

My Channel Master is performing pretty flawlessly because I am only using it, now, for VHF and I'm getting real good reception for all the VHF channels available to me.

The new DB8e isn't working real well for UH, at all.
I don't think I've gained much of anything that I didn't have before.

Might that Polaroid work without the rotor attached?
My thought was to aim it to get one specific station.

[rabbit73]

If you are using the Polaroid antenna for UHF only, and the Channel Master for VHF only, you can combine the two antennas with a UVSJ after the Polaroid power supply, but before the splitter.
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/UHF-VHF-Antenna-Combiners.html

But I think you should still try a preamp near the CM antenna for all channels.
The new DB8e isn't working real well for UHF, at all.
I don't think I've gained much of anything that I didn't have before.Did you try a preamp at the DB8e antenna?

[blackstone]

May I ask why you suggest the pre amp with the CM?

That one is the hardest to get to due to height above roof without dropping the mast to the ground.
(Not easy)

[blackstone]

Also. the Polaroid would be for only 1 UHF station in a different direction from all the Pittsburgh stations.
There are 6 transmitters I'm trying to capture there.

[rabbit73]

May I ask why you suggest the pre amp with the CM?

That one is the hardest to get to due to height above roof without dropping the mast to the ground.
(Not easy)I suggest it because a preamp at the Polaroid antenna helps, so a preamp at the DB8e or the CM might help to make the signals stronger BEFORE they go down the coax.

The preamp can be mounted a little below the antenna at a spot you can reach as a test.

[rabbit73]

Also. the Polaroid would be for only 1 UHF station in a different direction from all the Pittsburgh stations.
There are 6 transmitters I'm trying to capture there.Oh, I though you said the CM antenna would be for VHF only.

What are the six channels you need, by call sign?

If 5 of the channels from the west are UHF and VHF, and the SE channel is UHF, then you would need a custom combiner to insert the SE UHF channel into the system because combining two UHF channels from different directions is difficult.

If the SE channel is only just for one TV, there is a way to do it that involves a separate coax to that TV and an inexpensive separate tuner.

[blackstone]

Right now I'm running separate lines for the CM and DB8e.
I would, probably, only put a pre amp on the DB8e because I can reach those connections.

Is the metal roof a factor in the poor performance of the DB8e?

Yes, the CM is for VHF only and working pretty well for that

[blackstone]

The 6 channels are:
WTAE
WPXI
WPGH
WPNT
ION

KDKA comes in almost with no antenna

[rabbit73]

The 6 channels:

WTAE ABC, real channel 51, NM @ 20 ft 9.0 dB, 196 deg
WPXI NBC, 48, NM 15.1 dB, 216 deg
WPGH Fox, 43, NM 17.3 dB 218 deg
WPNT MyN/Comet, 42, NM 7.4 dB, 218 deg
WINP ION, 38, NM 9.6 dB, 212 deg

KDKA CBS, 25, NM 21.9 dB, 219 deg

I don't see any VHF channels, real channels 2-13, in that list.
WQED PBS is on real channel 13.

[blackstone]

I didn't include them because my old Channel Master picks them up well.

I'm having troubles with UHF

[blackstone]

I pick up:
8 WWCP
WTOV 9
WQED 13
WPCW 11

That's most of the stations available to me on VHF.

WWCP is fairly important to me because 8.1 is the only ABC affiliate I get reliably due to my inability to get WTAE

[rabbit73]

I don't see WJAC on the UHF list.

Which channel would the Polaroid antenna be for?

[blackstone]

The Polaroid would be for WJAC only.
It doesn't seem the Polaroid works with VHF or I'd try for WWCP too.
The DB8e would be for all the Pittsburgh stations I can't get.

But, I'm not sure why I only get most of them as weak signals except for KDKA.
Regardless of where I point the antenna.

I have received WTAE once or twice since I got the new antenna but it's fickle. I am not getting it now
WPXI not at all now.
WPGH is fairly weak
WPNT not at all
ION only occasionally and weak.
KDKA comes in strong almost whether the antenna is on the ground or pointed almost anywhere.
It's my strongest station, by far

[blackstone]

If the SE channel is only just for one TV, there is a way to do it that involves a separate coax to that TV and an inexpensive separate tuner.

Unfortunately, it would be for multiple TVs.

It would be a nice bonus if the Polaroid would pick up both WJAC (UHF) and WWCP (VHF)
but it doesn't seem to work on VHF.

What pre amp would you recommend?
Will my CM amp in the basement affect this?

Thank you for continuing to talk to me, Rabbit73

[rabbit73]

Do you need Youngstown?

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2988&d=1512232193

Your report at 20 feet for reference:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a43501c0927d

at 30 feet:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a472ea681a52

Unfortunately, it would be for multiple TVs.If you want all channels in all directions, that will be very complicated. Your signals are weak, which requires high gain antennas. High gain antennas have a very narrow beamwidth; that is the tradeoff with gain vs beamwidth. You also need a preamp for each antenna. Your system will require four antennas with three coax downleads. Each TV will require three coax connections and two separate tuners.

If that is not acceptable to you, then you will need to settle for fewer channels. A CATV system does it with multiple antennas, single channel amplifiers, and a combiner for all channels. It costs thousands of dollars and looks like this:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1420&d=1439422441

It would be a nice bonus if the Polaroid would pick up both WJAC (UHF) and WWCP (VHF)
but it doesn't seem to work on VHF.The Polaroid will work on VHF, but only for very strong signals, because it has a single folded dipole for VHF. WJAC on UHF channel 34 is at 142 degrees, and WWCP on VHF channel 8 is at 158 degrees. You would need a UHF antenna and a VHF antenna combined with a UVSJ just for the SE.
What pre amp would you recommend?Your choices are:

Antennas Direct Juice
Channel Master 7777HD/Amplify, has HI/LO gain switch
Channel Master 7778
Will my CM amp in the basement affect this?What models it, 3414?
The primary amplification should come from the preamps at the antennas. The distribution amp down below should only be added if splitting makes the signals too weak.

[blackstone]

Thanks, rabbit73.

I do not need Youngstown.

I do need WWCP 8 because 8.1 is the only semi-reliable ABC affiliate.
If I could solve WTAE then WWCP doesn't matter.

WJAC would be nice to have because of 6.3 Comet but I could live without it.
I will try the Polaroid to see if I can capture it/them.

I'm not trying to get all stations; just the ones that I think I should get.

Before getting the new DB8e, I got all of those stations, sometimes, except for WTAE which I never got and WPNT which I used to get but can't get at all now
None were reliable 365 days reception except KDKA, though.

Just got off the phone with Antenna Direct (I call then almost every day :( )
This is the second time I have talked to this particular rep.

She insists that my metal roof could, possibly, be causing me problems.
I am going to move the DB8e tomorrow to a wooden light pole 25' away.
If that doesn't help, then add a preamp.

Also mount the Polaroid for WJAC.

[rabbit73]

Your report indicates you should be able to get WTAE 51 with your CM antenna and a preamp. It is listed a being much stronger than WWCP. RabbitEars.info lists it as being stronger than KDKA at 25 feet:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2989&d=1512243253

but the coverage is very spotty in your area because of the rough terrain:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2990&d=1512243498

Have you tried to get WWCP by aiming your CM antenna at 158 degrees with a preamp?

If you want to keep your CM antenna aimed at Pittsburgh for UHF and VHF with a preamp, you can try this inexpensive VHF antenna aimed at 158 with a preamp for WWCP:
http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2476/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/71Y5462

[blackstone]

I get WWCP with my CM antenna aimed at 215 m/l.
Sometimes pretty good and sometimes not at all.

WTAE is an anomaly for me.
I was never able to get it with my CM but have gotten it a couple times since fooling with the DB8e.

When you look at the terrain coverage map just above, I am right by the bottom of the the "LL" in Hill.

I picked up a cheap RCA preamp today for my testing tomorrow.
If it looks like it improves that signal, I can return it and get a good one.
Also some stuff to mount the Polaroid and move the DB8e to my light pole.

That antenna looks pretty good.
If the Polaroid doesn't work out I may get this one.
Be nice if it had UHF too because I'd try to get WJAC with it too.
They're not far apart.
Under 20 degrees.

I'll report back tomorrow after changes and testing

[rabbit73]

It is possible to buy a UHF/VHF combo antenna for the SE like your CM antenna, but it would be expensive.

[blackstone]

I've been looking.
I'll try my Polaroid tomorrow aimed as precise as I can get it and see if I may get WWCP too.
Tonight, am trying to watch Clemson/Miami on 8.1 ABC and it went bad a couple times but came back in after rescanning.

I saw this one on Antennas Direct (https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/Element-Undirectional-Long-Range-DTV-Antenna.html)
And some on Amazon

[blackstone]

Well, here's what happened today.
First, I hooked the Polaroid up and pointed towards Johnstown; approx. 150 deg.
Picked up WJAC (UHF) but not WWCP (VHF).
Disconnected and moved to the DB8e.

And that's where the challenge continues.
I have no idea what precise direction that thing is aimed.
I don't know how to take a reading on it..
But, these are guesstimates.
Right now, I might be at@210 magnetic

Anyhow, I took it off the metal roof and put it on a wood light pole.

Right now, it's 10' up to the center bar.
I had some mixed results with just the antenna.
Then, I tried the RCA preamp.
I got nothing at all with it.

Disconnected it and did a little more adjusting.
The last location I got 29 UHF channels with the coax hooked directly from the antenna to my CM amp/splitter.

However, when I hooked UHF and VHF back up to a splitter, that dropped to 5.
I am waiting for a combiner to come Tuesday.

Some of those stations are weak, but ok to watch and others were terribly pixelated and not able to be watched..

For the first time, my TV attempted to get WPNT. It couldn't be watched but it showed up on the screen.

Seems like the splitter I'm trying to use as a combiner doesn't work for UHF.
It has no affect on my VHF stations.

This particular pre amp seemed to not work.
There were no instructions but I hooked the antenna to the UHF/Combined port.
There was a switch that I left on.
The other choices were FM Trap and Off.
I don't know what to make of that.

I think I'm going to leave it until my combiner comes on Tuesday

[rabbit73]

First, I hooked the Polaroid up and pointed towards Johnstown; approx. 150 deg.
Picked up WJAC (UHF) but not WWCP (VHF).That is to be expected. The Polaroid isn't very good for VHF.
Anyhow, I took it (DB8e) off the metal roof and put it on a wood light pole.
Right now, it's 10' up to the center bar.
I had some mixed results with just the antenna.
Then, I tried the RCA preamp.
I got nothing at all with it.You changed two things at once, so you can't be sure which one caused that result. You moved the antenna AND you added the preamp.

Is the preamp the RCA TVPRAMP1R?

I am using one with my indoor antenna and it works OK. It is inexpensive, but that model has a history of quality control problems. One of the problems is with the power supply. Amazon is selling it as a warehouse special, which is returns that they are reselling, but they are not testing them; the power supply is often dead.

Another problem is with the combined/separate switch. It usually works OK in the combined position, but if the switch is moved to the separate position for separate UHF and VHF antennas, it doesn't always make good contact with the VHF antenna.
This particular pre amp seemed to not work.
There were no instructions but I hooked the antenna to the UHF/Combined port.
There was a switch that I left on.
The other choices were FM Trap and Off.
I don't know what to make of that.You should have received instructions with it.
http://www.rcaantennas.net/docs/common/TVPRAMP1R/TVPRAMP1R_OM.pdf
Troubleshooting:
https://voxxintl.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/225345967-Troubleshooting-the-RCA-TVPRAMP1R-Outdoor-Pre-Amplifier
However, when I hooked UHF and VHF back up to a splitter, that dropped to 5.
I am waiting for a combiner to come Tuesday.
Seems like the splitter I'm trying to use as a combiner doesn't work for UHF.
It has no affect on my VHF stations.
I don't quite understand what you did. If you connected a UHF antenna and a VHF antenna to a splitter to combine them, that is the wrong device to combine a UHF antenna with a VHF antenna. Tell me about the splitter.
I am waiting for a combiner to come Tuesday.What combiner did you order?

[blackstone]

You changed two things at once, so you can't be sure which one caused that result. You moved the antenna AND you added the preamp.
I may have been unclear.

I added the preamp only after testing without it.
It was this one (https://www.amazon.com/RCA-TVPRAMP1Z-Preamplifier-Outdoor-Antenna/dp/B003P92D9Y/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1512349839&sr=1-1&keywords=rca+preamp)

It looks like the box may have been opened.
Perhaps, that is where the instructions went.
I'll check out the link.

it doesn't always make good contact with the VHF antenna.

I didn't connect to the VHF.
Just the UHF.

This is the one I have coming Tuesday (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006JPEA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

I have a real one sitting too high up to reach on my VHF antenna.
:(

The present splitter is similar to this (https://www.amazon.com/AmerTac-Zenith-VS3001SP2W-TwoWay-Splitter/dp/B00A9WR2QO/ref=sr_1_14?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1512350070&sr=1-14&keywords=tv+splitter+2+way)

I don't quite understand what you did. If you connected a UHF antenna and a VHF antenna to a splitter to combine them, that is the wrong device to combine a UHF antenna with a VHF antenna.
I needed a way to combine my VHF and UHF into my CM amp.
I had read that these splitters, sometimes, work.
They didn't for me.

It's all I could get in my small town.
Last Friday I, also, went to the next town 30 miles away looking for something.
Tried Lowes, Home Depot, Target, Walmart and some smaller places.
Too bad Radio Shack's not around anymore.

[rabbit73]

I needed a way to combine my VHF and UHF into my CM amp.
I had read that these splitters, sometimes, work.
They didn't for me.Both of those devices are wrong for combining a UHF antenna and a VHF antenna for the CM amp (which you didn't tell me the model). You need a UHF VHF Separator Joiner, UVSJ, AKA Diplexer.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2730&d=1497987111

https://www.radioshack.com/products/radioshack-vhf-uhf-gold-plated-splitter-combiner

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2991&d=1512355354

https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/UHF-VHF-Antenna-Combiners.html

[blackstone]

Way back in the beginning of this thread:
The amp is a Channel Master CM3414 4-Port Distribution Amplifier for Cable and Antenna Signal.

Both of those devices are wrong for combining a UHF antenna and a VHF antenna for the CM amp

I figured they probably were but it was the only shot I had
:(

[blackstone]

I have one of those combiners too high to reach on my VHF mast.

How would I combine 3 leads to one output?

[blackstone]

I'm guessing this won't work (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007D4TFW/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3SBDOAENTRT1F&psc=1)?

Would this work for 3 leads if I use a 3rd antenna? (https://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Bi-Directional-NAC-Wire-Cables/dp/B01AQ3NJJO/ref=sr_1_11?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1512355364&sr=1-11&keywords=uhf+vhf+combiner)

[rabbit73]

The 3414 is a good distribution amp.

I'm guessing this won't work (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007D4TFW/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3SBDOAENTRT1F&psc=1)?

Would this work for 3 leads if I use a 3rd antenna? (https://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Bi-Directional-NAC-Wire-Cables/dp/B01AQ3NJJO/ref=sr_1_11?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1512355364&sr=1-11&keywords=uhf+vhf+combiner)Probably not.

How would I combine 3 leads to one output? Which 3 leads; please be more specific.

Combining two antennas with a splitter in reverse if iffy; combining 3 is even more iffy.

Combining a UHF antenna with a VHF antenna with a UVSJ works OK.

Combining two UHF antennas aimed in different directions with a splitter in reverse doesn't always work.

Combining a UHF/VHF antenna like your CM aimed in one direction with a UHF antenna aimed in a different direction with a splitter in reverse doesn't always work.

[blackstone]

The CM VHF, my DB8e UHF and a possible UHF/VHF for the south east.
WJAC and WWCP

BTW, thank you for your continued patient help

[rabbit73]

BTW, thank you for your continued patient helpThank you for understanding. I'm trying to give you accurate advice.

Your CM antenna is for UHF and VHF. It should be OK for UHF and VHF from the SW with a preamp; isn't t?

I understand that you want UHF and VHF from two directions, the SW and SE, but using a splitter in reverse probably will not work for you.

Forum member bobsgarage lives between Chicago and Milwaukee. He wanted both direction, but I told him to be happy with just one direction because combining doesn't always work. He tried it and lost some channels. He ended up with two separate systems.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2867&stc=1&d=1504224588

Bobsgarage lives north of Chicago, and has two antenna systems on two separate masts; one UHF/VHF system facing north to Milwaukee, and one facing south to Chicago. (In the photo, they are both aimed in about the same direction.) He wanted so many channels, he found it impossible to combine them without losing some. He is using separate tuners.

[blackstone]

My CM antenna works great for VHF from the southwest without preamplification.

I'm looking at improving reception from the south east.
WJAC and WWCP

If I could reliably pick up WTAE on my DB8e, I would have no need for WWCP 8.
I may then be able to use the Polaroid for WJAC if I could combine it with my CM and DB8e

[rabbit73]

The best solution I can think of for you if you want both directions for UHF and VHF to 3 TVs, is UHF and VHF antennas for both directions (or a UHF/VHF combo antenna for each direction) with a preamp for each direction, and two coax lines to each TV.

One coax line will go to the TV antenna input, and the other coax line for the other direction will go to a separate tuner with its output going to the aux input of the TV.

[rabbit73]

My CM antenna works great for VHF from the southwest without preamplification.That's nice, but can it do UHF and VHF with a preamp?
If I could reliably pick up WTAE on my DB8e, I would have no need for WWCP 8.If your report is correct, you shouldn't be having trouble getting WTAE, even with the CM antenna and a preamp.

One disadvantage of the DB8e is that it has a narrow beamwidth that might not be able to cover all your SW channels.

[blackstone]

I removed the UHF from my CM to add it to the DB8e.
That wasn't my original intention, though.

Antennas Direct recommended the DB8e when I called them. (Had a 25% off coupon which was my impetus.)

Only after ordering did I learn the DB8e didn't work with VHF.
They recommended I keep my CM for VHF.

The CM, usually, picks up WWCP 8 even though it's pointed SW.
Sometimes it doesn't.

The DB8e has picked up WJAC even though it's pointed SW, too.
Neither station comes in 100% reliably, though.

I've never tried a preamp on the CM because it seems to pick up VHF well.
Because of size, weight, etc. the CM will not get any further attention.
It's too high to reach and too cumbersome to get down and put back up.

I will give the preamp another try tomorrow.
I may not have had the switches set correctly.

The best solution I can think of for you if you want both directions for UHF and VHF to 3 TVs, is UHF and VHF antennas for both directions (or a UHF/VHF combo antenna for each direction) with a preamp for each direction, and two coax lines to each TV.

One coax line will go to the TV antenna input, and the other coax line for the other direction will go to a separate tuner with its output going to the aux input of the TV.


Would a separate tuner be needed for each TV?
Only 2 TVs would be interested in this setup

[blackstone]

Here is the status as of 8:30 am 12/4/17

The DB8e is hooked directly to the CM3414 amp.
No preamp.
Antenna is 10' off ground.

Best guess approximation of bearing is 218 Magnetic
VHF CM not connected
39 stations on scan.

If this holds I would be extremely happy

Here's what they are with virtual channels and signal strength:
2 KDKA Good
3 WPSU Weak (That's a weird one. Must be picking it off the back of the antenna)
4 WTAE Normal
6 WJAC Good
8 WWCP Weak (VHF)
11 WPXI Normal
16 ION Good
19 WPCW Normal
21 WFMJ Weak
22 WPNT Weak
27 WKBN Weak
40 WPCB Weak
53 WPGH Good

I will try the RCA preamp again with all other conditions the same

[blackstone]

The results from using a preamp are discouraging.
RCA TVPRAMP1R.

Tried various settings and connections and got -0- stations with any of them.
Here's what I tried:
FM Trap on
UHF separate (Yesterday this was set to combined with the same results)

Tried both UHF separate and the VHF post.
Have the DB8e connected to the power module which is connected to the CM 3414 amp.

Saw a YouTube video where a guy said he used just the outdoor box without power.
Tried that, too.

No results.
Was hoping this would help boost some of my weaker signals.

Is this a defective preamp?

Pretty sure I'm connected properly

[blackstone]

Since I'm trying to be greedy, I called Antennas Direct for their suggestions on optimizing my weaker signals.

They sell this preamp (https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/UHF_VHF_antenna_pre_amp_kit.html)

I may try it and order a combiner from them if the one I have coming from Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006JPEA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)doesn't work

It will only take a few minutes to find out later this afternoon when it gets here

[blackstone]

I may have gloated too soon.

I lost some stations completely and others went from normal to weak.
The only thing that changed was weather.
It got cloudier.

And, possibly, I attached the extra cable to two masts to get it up out of the way.

[jrgagne99]

Is this a defective preamp? Pretty sure I'm connected properly

If the preamp killed your reception, then yes, something about it is likely defective.

I may have gloated too soon.

It is easy to get excited by periods of good reception. Several days of good reception are generally needed to confirm the quality of your installation. Improved reception due to tropospheric ducting last for hours or sometimes days. See http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html for DX forecasts, as well as rear-view looks.

And, possibly, I attached the extra cable to two masts to get it up out of the way.

This is not likely to have any ill effects.

[blackstone]

Thanks for that input, jrgagne99.

The highs and lows of cutting the cord

My area is black on that map.
It says nil signal.

What does this mean?

[rabbit73]

The problem with the RCA preamp could be that it is hooked up wrong, or it could be a bad preamp, or both. This is the hookup for the DB8e and the RCA preamp; it should work better than without the preamp.

DB8e > preamp > long coax > grounding block > power inserter > TV

If the signals are too weak for splitting:

DB8e > preamp > long coax > grounding block > power inserter > 3414 > TVs

To combine the CM for VHF only and the DB8e for UHF with no amplification for the CM:


CM
\ VHF
UVSJ > coax > grounding > power > splitter or 3414 > TVs
/ UHF block inserter
DB8e > RCA
switch set to combined or separate, but preferably combined

The Radio Shack 15-2586 or the AD UVSJ will pass power to the RCA

To combine the CM for VHF only and the DB8e for UHF with amplification for the CM and the DB8e, using the RCA preamp as a combiner:


CM
\ VHF
RCA amp > coax > grounding > power > splitter or 3414 > TVs
/ UHF block inserter
DB8e
RCA switch separate

If the combined/separate switch in the RCA preamp goes bad in the separate position, use the UVSJ as a combiner:


CM
\ VHF
UVSJ > RCA > coax > grounding > power > splitter or 3414 > TVs
/ UHF block inserter
DB8e
RCA switch set to combined

[jrgagne99]

My area is black on that map.
It says nil signal.

What does this mean?

It means conditions supposedly were not especially favorable for improved reception due to tropospheric ducting. That being said, as i understand things, weather fluctuations can change reception, outside of tropo ducting effects. In my case, I tend to get stronger signal when it is cloudy/overcast, vs. clear nights when the reception is typically not as strong (though still more than adequate for uninterrupted TV watching).

[rabbit73]

There are some voltage tests you can make on the RCA preamp:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2996&d=1512417272

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2997&d=1512417300

When the preamp is connected, the voltage will drop. It is necessary to use a T-adapter to have access to the center conductor to measure the voltage when the preamp is connected:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2969&d=1511636090

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2968&d=1511635684

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000AS7DI4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[blackstone]

Thanks for that info, rabbit and jrgagne.

I've never used a grounding block.

Yesterday, I had the DB8e with the combined switch on.
Today, I had it set to separate.
In both cases, it completely killed the signal.

Here's how I tried it.
DB8e---.RCA--->LONG COAX--->POWER--->3414--->TV.

The DB8e is now 40' from the CM

[rabbit73]

That should have worked if the DB8e was connected to the UHF input of the RCA.

Try it without the 3414.

Time to make some voltage measurements.

[blackstone]

I'll be returning the RCA and trying a different one.
That was the only one in my town.

I don't have a lot of choices here.
I have Ace Hardware, Busy Beaver lumber, and Walmart.

Next town, which is a lot bigger and 30 miles away, doesn't have much more.
That includes Lowes, Home Depot, bigger Walmart, Target.
Too bad Radio Shack doesn't exist anymore.
I looked for some kind of electronics store but none around.
There is a Best Buy 45 miles away in another direction.

How could the signal degrade that much in such a short time?
Only 4-5 hours.

[jrgagne99]

I'll be returning the RCA and trying a different one... I have Ace Hardware, Busy Beaver lumber, and Walmart.

I recommend getting one from Walmart or Walmart.com. My recollection is that they were generally of good quality with way fewer issues than the Amazon.com ones. Anecdotally, mine came from Walmart.com and works well.


How could the signal degrade that much in such a short time?
Only 4-5 hours.

I'm not at all surprised by this. It is not uncommon to see signal strength change by 5-6 dB (factor of 4) as weather patterns change. Especially for deep fringe situations. As a peronal example, last year on Superbowl Sunday, I was getting the FOX affiliate for 18 hours with 3 dB to spare, leading up to Sunday afternoon. Then at 2pm, signal strength began to decline and by 4pm it was gone completely... Murphy's Law.

[blackstone]

I'll check out Walmart.com.
Usually, it takes a long time

I was looking at the PA18 UHF/VHF Antenna Pre-Amplifier Kit from Antennas Direct.
I can get a 10% discount which makes it $2 more than Wally.
WM has a pretty big selection which includes Channel Master and Winegard.

Which do you guys recommend?

Some have a 30 db gain, some 16, some variable.
It doesn't sound like a high gain always gives a better signal

[blackstone]

Just got this delivered and hooked up.
Linear 2512 ChannelPlus DC & IR Passing 2-Way Splitter/Combiner
Got 13 channels VHF and 20 UHF.

(I almost always get 13 VHF stations).

It seems to work better than the previous splitter I was using.
Try another preamp and I expect to be as good as I can get.

I may try and raise the antenna a little to see if that helps.

[jrgagne99]

I may try and raise the antenna a little to see if that helps.

Antennas are like real estate--- the three most important things are Location, Location, and Location. In my experience, moving the antenna around can often result in many dB increase in the SNR, vs. picking the right cable (sometimes even choosing RG-11), using low-loss preamp, (e.g. Kitztech KT-200), and other tricks can only result in a few dB at best.

As an example, I spent well over 40 hours mapping out all of the available rooftop area on my house for reception quality/quantity over a period of about 16 months. I found one particular location and mast height where I was able to get 80% of the channels I wanted, but was still missing one key channel. I was just about ready to call it "good enough" when I was able to borrow a big man-lift and fish around for reception up in some nearby trees using my antennas and a handheld portable TV. I was finally able to find a nice sweet-spot up in a big pine tree, where I get all 6 signals (19 channels) with 100% reliability. I used good-quality infrastructure (pre-amps, cables, etc.) to pipe the signal to my house, but the key to success for me was the location.


Some have a 30 db gain, some 16, some variable.
It doesn't sound like a high gain always gives a better signal

A 30 dB probably won't do any better than a 16 dB, unless your downstream losses really are that high. Here is a nice web-based utility to estimate your downstream losses, and by extension, the amount of amplification recommended at the mast. http://otadtv.com/cables/index.html

Remember, if there's no water in the well, a bigger bucket (more amplification) won't help. You need to dig deeper (get a bigger antenna) or dig the well in a different spot (move the antenna). Or something like that.

[blackstone]

Good analogies, jrgagne99.
Checking the link.
Is my CM 3414 4 port amplifier considered a splitter?
And a question on connectors.

Do I count as a connector each connection to the antenna and combiner box as well as the connection inside to the splitter/combiner and the connection to the CM amp/splitter.
Or does this mean only if I connect 2 pieces of coax?

Thank you

PS: How do you check signal strength in various locations?

[jrgagne99]

Is my CM 3414 4 port amplifier considered a splitter?

No. In this case, I think its positive gain should be counted to the positive side of your ledger. Rabbit may correct me on this.


And a question on connectors.

Do I count as a connector each connection to the antenna and combiner box as well as the connection inside to the splitter/combiner and the connection to the CM amp/splitter.
Or does this mean only if I connect 2 pieces of coax?


In this case, I think "connectors" means barrel connectors that join two pieces of coax.



PS: How do you check signal strength in various locations?


There are expensive (several hundred dollars) signal meters out there, but the poor-man's method is to use the signal quality indicator on your TV. Some use words like strong, good, and weak, others have numbers, some (like my Sony Bravia) give really useful information like the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR).

An intermediate approach is a little homemade widget using a Winegard camper/RV signal strength meter (Winegard RFL-332 SensarPro Black TV Signal Strength Meter), which requires 12V power (eight AA batteries) and a DC-blocker because it is designed for use with amplified Winegard RV antennas. Read R. Ross's review of the SensarPro on Amazon for instructions on the build. I built one and it works pretty well.

[rabbit73]

Is my CM 3414 4 port amplifier considered a splitter?The 3414 is a distribution amplifier. It consists of an amplifier and a splitter in one case.

The amplifier has a gain of 15 dB, but the splitter section has a loss of 7 dB per outlet, so the net gain for each outlet is 8 dB.
https://www.channelmaster.com/Antenna_Cable_TV_Amplifier_p/cm-3414.htm

PS: How do you check signal strength in various locations?
The answer by jrgagne99 is correct. Use the TV that has the best signal strength meter; all you need is a relative indication.....more is better.

This is from my 19" Samsung TV:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2999&d=1512499825

I also like the Diagnostics Screen in my Sony TV. It gives relative signal strength and SNR. Screen shots from my Sony KDL22L5000:

Bad signal with picture freeze, SNR below 15 dB, and uncorrected errors:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1386&d=1438807158

Good Signal

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1387&d=1438807179

Signal level meters are expensive.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1481&d=1440873529

I like to make antenna measurements, so I'm willing to spend the money. I bought the Sadelco 719E meter on the left when I retired from the government in 1988; it was $600. My wife gave me the Sadelco DisplayMax 800 meter on the right as a present; it was $1000.

Since that time, I have bought several meters on eBay, but I don't bid any more than I am willing to lose if a return isn't possible.

This one was $75 including shipping:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2998&d=1512491679

[blackstone]

Thanks for that info, Rabbit73.

Always good and I learn.
(Slowly)

Just ordered the PA18 UHF/VHF Antenna Pre-Amplifier Kit from Antennas Direct.
Should get here late Thursday so I'm status quo until then.

Reception is poor today; possibly due to rain.

[rabbit73]

Reception is poor today; possibly due to rain.Reception will always be variable with your weakest signals and with the channels that are off-aim for your antenna.

Your goal should be for reliable reception of your strongest channels in all kinds of weather.

[blackstone]

I have 11 VHF channels that fit that criteria but only 1 on UHF.
KDKA is my only 100% reliable UHF

[jrgagne99]

This thread has me so confused. Maybe it's upthread somewhere, but can you restate which stations (call signs) you are shooting for, and maybe rate each one with a "must have", "would be nice", and "stretch goal". Also, is the TVFool report on Post #1 accurate, or has it been superseded somewhere downthread? (if so, in what Post number). Thanks :)

[blackstone]

I understand, jrgagne99.
I have several 100+ page threads on a coal furnace forum.

The TV Fool report at the beginning should be accurate, still

2 KDKA Must have ***
4 WTAE Almost a must have
6 WJAC Would be nice
8 WWCP If I don't get WTAE then must have This is VHF
11 WPXI Would be nice but not major
16 ION Doesn't matter to me but wife would watch
19 WPCW Must have ***
22 WPNT Would be nice but a stretch
53 WPGH Must have

*** means I get those almost regardless of what I do.
I get other VHF stations reliably.
My challenge is with UHF stations with the exception of WWCP.

[blackstone]

Your goal should be for reliable reception of your strongest channels in all kinds of weather

With a couple exceptions, I mostly had that when I started.

My goal is to get the stations I should get.

The DB8e has given me a fleeting glimmer of hope that I may achieve that.
Otherwise I've wasted my time and money.
And your time, too.

In general, as far as reliability, the DB8e hasn't gained me anything yet.
It's not due to anything you all have done.

You have been generous and patient with giving me your help.

I'll see what the preamp does.
The signals seem to be here

[jrgagne99]

I think the DB8e aimed at 225-magnetic is your best chance for good reception of the UHF stations on your list. You may even be able to aim it at 206 magnetic to pull in WTAE on real ch-51, while still getting the 222/226/228 UHF stations. If not, your ABC will need to come from WWCP on VHF at 167-magnetic. Your can use your old CM UHF/VHF combo antenna for this, but I would buy a Stellar Labs 30-2476 for around $30. I think it will have more VHF gain than the old CM. In either case, combine the signals from the VHF antenna and the DB8e with a UVSJ at the mast, then amplify at the mast. I recommend the RCA TVPRAMP1 at the mast which serves as both a UVSJ and an amplifier because it has separate inputs for UHF and VHF. I don't think the Antennas Direct PA18 has separate inputs, so you'll need to use a functioning, good quality UVSJ upstream of it to combine the VHF and UHF signals before feeding into the preamp. Any UHF component being picked up by the old CM antenna should be stripped off by the UVSJ when you input the CM into the VHF side of said UVSJ.

If it is logistically too difficult for you to combine and amplify at the mast, you can do it at ground level, but be sure to minimize the coax length between the antennas and the amp.

You should do all of these things with only one TV in the signal chain and no CM-3414. Only after you have done your best to optimize reception should you worry about distributing signal to multiple TVs.

[blackstone]

Thanks for those suggestions.

Right now, the DB8e is @215-218 (best guess because it's hard to be sure)
The CM and DB8e are @ 40' apart now and have separate coax.
I moved it to eliminate the chance that my metal roof was interfering

If I used a common preamp, I'd have to do this inside near where I put them into the CM 3414 splitter/amp.

Except for WWCP, all my VHF are strong on the CM.
I get these strong:
(Virtual)
9 WTOV
13 WQED
19 WPCW

WWCP comes in decently 80% of the time.
That's aimed at 215-220.
Not much else out there.

Although I don't feel a need to amplify the VHF, I just ordered this
Winegard LNA-100 Boost TV Antenna Amplifier, HDTV Signal Booster, HD Digital VHF UHF Amplifier, Indoor HDTV Ultra Low Noise Amp (USB Power Supply) - USA (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BN5Z2UY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) to see if it may help with WWCP.

My main concern is seeing if I can amplify the UHF.
The only consistently strong UHF signal is KDKA.
Probably WPGH is my second best and it's nowhere as consistently strong.
Or WJAC from Johnstown which is, usually, pretty good.
Other than those 3, anything else is by pure chance.

Earlier today I ordered the PA 18 for my UHF.

The RCA that I am returning was the only preamp to be found within 30 miles of me.
Once I get these pieces, I'll try with only 1 TV as you suggest.

[blackstone]

Some new preliminary results.
If they hold, it's great.
I'm making this report with cautious optimism.

The first preamp to get here was the Winegard.
The Pa 18 may not arrive until tomorrow..

First, I hooked it to the DB8e and bypassed the CM 3414 and connected to only one TV.
Every station came in as either "Normal" or "Good"

Here's what I got: (Only UHF)
Virtual channel Call Letters
2 KDKA
3 WPSU
4 WTAE
6 WJAC
11 WPXI
22 WPNT
40 WPCB
53 WPGH

Subsequently, I hooked everything back up through the CM 3414 with 4 TVs.
No loss of signals or quality on any of the sets.

Weather was snowy and cloudy.
Next, I plan to hook the VHF only to see if I can get WWCP in addition to my usual reliable VHF stations.

After that, I'll try the preamp between the combiner and the CM 3414 with both VHF and UHF connected.

Wish me luck and I'll report back

[blackstone]

So far, all those channels are holding.

I need to tweak my VHF antenna direction.
Night before last, the wind turned it.
I must not have had it clamped firmly enough.

WWCP and WTOV aren't coming in real good.

Other than that, it seems good.
(So far)

Thanks, rabbit73, for all your patience and showing me what a preamp can do.
And jrgagne99 for your instructions, too.

And TV Fool for making this great resource available to me.

I have a second preamp coming.
I was thinking of using it on the DB8e mast for UHF and the second on the VHF line at ground level.

Does that make sense or overkill?

[jrgagne99]

I have a second preamp coming.
I was thinking of using it on the DB8e mast for UHF and the second on the VHF line at ground level.

Does that make sense or overkill?

I don't think that's a bad idea. It sounds like you're talking about amplifying the VHF at ground level, upstream of the UVSJ. If you put the wall-wart and power inserter outside, you would probably want to build some weather protection/enclosure for them since they are not designed for outdoors. I guess you could put the wall wart and power inserter inside, but you'd need another hole in the house, or need to make your current hole bigger.

[blackstone]

Thanks for your reply.

My thoughts are to keep the Wingeard on the inside for VHF and use the PA 18 outside near the DB8e for UHF.
The PA 18 has weather protection.

I am amazed at how much the preamp has helped.
I consistently get a decent signal from WTAE and WPNT; two stations I couldn't pick up at all before.


Thank you, again, and rabbit73!!!!

[jrgagne99]

The mast-mounted components of each pre-amp should both have weather protection, it is the wallwarts and power-inserter that you'll need to evaluate. Plus, I think only UHF side of your UVSJ passes power, hence the need to insert power for the VHF pre-amp upstream of the UVSJ.


I am amazed at how much the preamp has helped.

When done properly, a pre-amp makes moot all of the downstream losses, at the expense of a small hit to SNR at the beginning of the signal chain.

[blackstone]

The Winegard and it's power are completely inside.

I believe the power component of the PA 18 is inside and the connection and preamp are enclosed.
It just arrived a little bit ago but I haven't opened it yet.

[Nascarken]

That sounds like your AMP is no longer working how old is the amp
and the tree's I Suggest use a channel master telescoping mast of 40ft
And a channel master 7777AMP,and look at your Lowe's and home depot
and get free shipping too the store,we'll good luck and have a good day.

[blackstone]

Thanks, Nascarken.
I replaced the amp around a month ago.
The previous one was about 5 years old.

Until I replaced it I was getting almost no stations.
That brought back all the other stations but not the ones mentioned.

My thought is my Clear Stream is only getting one station.

I can't do any worse by switching

[Nascarken]

Thanks, Nascarken.
I replaced the amp around a month ago.
The previous one was about 5 years old.

Until I replaced it I was getting almost no stations.
That brought back all the other stations but not the ones mentioned.

My thought is my Clear Stream is only getting one station.

I can't do any worse by switching

Sounds like !!!

[blackstone]

Just realized this is a really old thread