Odd thing has happened twice . . . [Archive]

Dagwood

9-Sep-2017, 6:19 AM

Hi. About a half hour ago (it is now 2:00 AM) all my channels went dead on both my TVs. I normally get about a dozen channels or so.

This same thing happened around a year ago, and I assumed something went haywire with the antenna/cable -- there's no way all those channels could suddenly stop transmitting at the same time. But the next day everything was working fine, and has ever since. And I've forgotten about it, til tonight when it happened again.

I did a search here before posting and found this thread about a preamp going dead. (https://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=15148&highlight=channels+dead)

I put a whole new system on the roof in 2009, including a new preamp and cable going to two TVs (I don't remember for sure the brand of the antenna and preamp, but I'm thinking Wineguard). One of the TVs was replaced two years ago, the second one was replaced a year ago.

Everything has worked flawlessly since it all went black the last time, then came back on by itself. Any idea how it "fixed" itself overnight, and has been fine for a year or more?

If it doesn't come back on by itself miraculously tomorrow, before I go fooling around on the roof, is there anything I should do first? What do I check besides obvious connections to see if they're tight?

I'm not young, and am not crazy any more about getting up on the roof, but do it when I have to.

Thanks in advance!

Dagwood

10-Sep-2017, 12:07 AM

FWIW: Both TVs worked as normal this morning.

Anybody got any answers or suggestions as to why, or how, this happened? :confused:

rabbit73

10-Sep-2017, 5:12 PM

If it doesn't come back on by itself miraculously tomorrow, before I go fooling around on the roof, is there anything I should do first? What do I check besides obvious connections to see if they're tight?You could check the voltage going up to the preamp.

What model is the power inserter that is down below?

Your previous thread has some background information that might help others to help you.
TV signal slowly degrading . . .
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=13158

At that time, your signal problem was caused by electrical interference.

rabbit73

10-Sep-2017, 8:41 PM

It could be a solar flare. Where do you live?

It's a big one

This mornings solar flare is the biggest one for many years,:eek: there have been reports in some areas of OTA TV and CATV signal loss, cell phone traffic has also been affected.

This flare has also affected HF radio signals and satellite signals.

http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/products/goes-proton-flux

http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/

It's the green line (I would have used the red one) you have to watch, as it is now above the dotted line, if it goes above the next line up then it may be time to get the lead underwear on.:eyecrazy

If it goes above the second line above the dotted line then we could see the AC power grid affected, it could cause (and in the past has) overloads and cause line circuit protection devices to trip.

This could cause wide spread power outages.:helpme

So if your missing out on the game, don't blame the station, there is nothing that can be done.

P. S. If it goes off scale then we will be back in the 17th century as far as technology.

P. P. S. It might be some good Northern Light viewing in some areas over the next few nights.

https://www.highdefforum.com/local-hdtv-info-reception/150551-its-big-one.html

Google

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&q=solar+flare&oq=solar+flare&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i131k1l3j0i3k1.26010.30993.0.31535.11.11.0.0.0.0.356.2170.0j9j1j1.11.0... .0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.11.2168...0.qu8N5pVBc3I

Dagwood

10-Sep-2017, 10:39 PM

You could check the voltage going up to the preamp.

What model is the power inserter that is down below? What is a "power inserter"? :confused:

Your previous thread has some background information that might help others to help you.
TV signal slowly degrading . . .
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=13158

At that time, your signal problem was caused by electrical interference.Ha, I had totally forgotten about that. I can't believe it was 4 1/2 years ago. :( I couldn't even remember the name of this site the other night, but I Googled around and recognized it when it came up.

It could be a solar flare. Where do you live?

I checked both those links; none of it meant much to me. I live in upstate NY, south of Rochester 30 or so miles, as the crow flies. Could a solar flare have been the problem?

rabbit73

11-Sep-2017, 12:14 AM

What is a "power inserter"?You said you had a preamp. A preamp needs power to operate, and a power inserter sends the power up to the preamp.

A preamp system comes in two parts: the preamp itself up by the antenna, and a power inserter down below. The power inserter makes it possible to send the DC power up to the preamp on the SAME coax that sends the signals down to the TV.

http://i.imgur.com/uVHwqcw.jpg

If something goes wrong with the power inserter, then it might not be able to send the power up to the preamp to make it amplify the signals.

It is possible to measure the voltage at the power inserter to see if the voltage is there without going up to the roof. Of course, that is only he first step in trouble shooting a preamp. The results of that test will determine what you need to do next.

Do you have a voltmeter, or do you have a buddy that can make electrical measurements?

http://dennysantennaservice.com/1136577.html

I checked both those links; none of it meant much to me. I live in upstate NY, south of Rochester 30 or so miles, as the crow flies. Could a solar flare have been the problem?

Solar flares can knock out radio and TV signals. They can also knock out the power grid. You must remember the widespread blackout in the Northeast that started in Canada.

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/sun_darkness.html

https://www.inverse.com/article/34137-solar-storm-blackout-nyc-earth

There has been loss of signals this week.

https://www.google.com/search?q=solar+flare+knocks+radio+and+tv+recent&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwici4HR8pvWAhVX42MKHWgpCmIQvwUIIygA&biw=911&bih=345

So, it is possible, but it is more likely a problem with your preamp.

Dagwood

11-Sep-2017, 2:12 AM

You said you had a preamp. A preamp needs power to operate, and a power inserter sends the power up to the preamp.

It is possible to measure the voltage at the power inserter to see if the voltage is there without going up to the roof. Of course, that is only he first step in trouble shooting a preamp. The results of that test will determine what you need to do next.

Do you have a voltmeter, or do you have a buddy that can make electrical measurements?

Aha, yes. Mine is a Wineguard PS-1503.

I have a meter, and know basic electricity, but know nothing about how this system works. What/where should I check? Can this thing go haywire, correct itself overnight, be fine for a year or so, then go through the exact same cycle again?

If it's working fine, like it is now, should I expect a voltage reading to be off or would I have to wait til it goes out again?

rabbit73

11-Sep-2017, 6:44 PM

Aha, yes. Mine is a Wineguard PS-1503.Here is the Winegard troubleshooting video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNPb1XNBQSI

If it's working fine, like it is now, should I expect a voltage reading to be off or would I have to wait til it goes out again?Check the voltage now while it is working. If it goes out again, see if the red LED is ON or OFF.

You have an intermittent problem. I think you know how difficult that is------you have to catch it when it is acting up.

At this point, you don't know what is causing the problem. It could be the antenna, the balun between the antenna and the preamp, the preamp, the coax between the preamp and the power inserter (injector), the power inserter, or the power transformer. It could even be the signals.

Your job is to isolate the problem to one part of the system by substitution of known good components, even if it means a completely separate test antenna and coax.

I can't be any more specific because I don't know what your antenna looks like and I don't know what kind of signals you have because you haven't given us a tvfool signal report for your location. You can do a report here:

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

I live in upstate NY, south of Rochester 30 or so miles, as the crow flies.That might be somewhere near Geneso, Leicester, or Mt Morris.

Here is a report for Mt Morris. The Rochester signals aren't very strong, but WPXJ ION from Pavilion is strong enough to use as a test signal with a simple test antenna, if that is your location.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a4f831e85205

Dagwood

16-Sep-2017, 2:52 AM

Here is the Winegard troubleshooting video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNPb1XNBQSI

Check the voltage now while it is working. If it goes out again, see if the red LED is ON or OFF.

Okay, transformer measures 29 V. and the "Ant" connection on the power inverter measures 16 V., both okay according to the video.

Everything has been working fine since last weekend, so I guess all I can do now is wait until it doesn't. :(

Thanks for the help! :D

EDIT: I can't be any more specific because I don't know what your antenna looks like and I don't know what kind of signals you have because you haven't given us a tvfool signal report for your location. You can do a report here:

Actually, I did that but it didn't "stick" for whatever reason. I will do it again.

Here is the link (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a4c5db6f4ec6) they said to post.

FWIW: Here is what I really have:

I live in a hole, with a hill between me and the transmitters. If these signals only go in a straight line (as I've read) then I am only getting them because they are bouncing off one of the other hills.

NBC, ABC, PBS always come in fine. CBS is normally fine, but if the antenna isn't aimed exactly it can be dicey, depending on the weather.

I only get FOX from around September/October until April/May. It is like this every year, and was the same even before 2009 when it was analog. I assume it has something to do with the atmospheric changes as the seasons change. It does not correspond with the leaves being on or off the trees.

Tower Guy

16-Sep-2017, 4:15 PM

In addition to an intermittent electronics failure ithe problem could also be caused by interference. Is there anything electronic that you added lately?

Dagwood

16-Sep-2017, 7:34 PM

In addition to an intermittent electronics failure ithe problem could also be caused by interference. Is there anything electronic that you added lately?

Not since this problem as outlined in my last thread (http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=13158) from 4½ years ago. :(

rabbit73

16-Sep-2017, 11:23 PM

Thanks for checking the voltage to the preamp. If you have a problem again, check to see if the LED on the power inserter is still ON. as it should be, or OFF.

Thanks for the tvfool signal report.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a4c5db6f4ec6
NBC, ABC, PBS always come in fine. CBS is normally fine, but if the antenna isn't aimed exactly it can be dicey, depending on the weather.

I only get FOX from around September/October until April/May.That description exactly matches your signal report. NBC, ABC, and PBS are your strongest signals, and CBS is listed just a little weaker than PBS. Fox is a lot weaker than CBS.

CBS sends 992 kW out of 1000 kW ERP in your direction. If you click on the CBS callsign in your report, this is what you will see:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a4c5db6f4ec6%26t%3dALLTV%26n%3d4

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2893&stc=1&d=1505609634

Fox is much weaker because it has a very directional transmitting antenna that sends only 11 kW out of 320 kW ERP.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a4c5db6f4ec6%26t%3dALLTV%26n%3d5

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2894&stc=1&d=1505610948
I only get FOX from around September/October until April/May. It is like this every year, and was the same even before 2009 when it was analog. I assume it has something to do with the atmospheric changes as the seasons change. It does not correspond with the leaves being on or off the trees.What you assume is correct; the seasonal change does make a difference. In the warmer weather, the Fox signal is not able to bend down to your location by refraction because the density of the air changes in warm weather.

Forum member tripelo says it much better than I can:Daytime Signal Fade (Independent of Multipath)

Gradual bending allows radio signals to somewhat follow the earth’s curvature for some distance beyond normal line-of-sight. This gradual bending is somewhat independent of phenomenon like ‘tropo scatter’. As you know, long distance TV signals can fade (reduce in strength) in daylight hours. This can be due to smaller temperature gradients that result when the sun uniformly heats the air in the lower atmosphere during much of daytime hours. Smaller temperature gradients result in less bending of the signals back towards the surface, thus the daytime fade.

Note: Temperature is not the end cause of the bending of RF signals. Temperature is a measure of one particular driving factor (thermal energy) that can decrease atmospheric density, thus affecting the density of everything contained in the atmosphere (water vapor, etc).

rabbit73

17-Sep-2017, 12:28 AM

Are there any trees in the signal path from Rochester?

Does the problem get worse when it rains?

Dagwood

17-Sep-2017, 1:07 AM

Thanks for checking the voltage to the preamp. If you have a problem again, check to see if the LED on the power inserter is still ON. as it should be, or OFF.

Will do.

Thanks for the tvfool signal report.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a4c5db6f4ec6
That description exactly matches your signal report. NBC, ABC, and PBS are your strongest signals, and CBS is listed just a little weaker than PBS. Fox is a lot weaker than CBS.

CBS sends 992 kW out of 1000 kW ERP in your direction. If you click on the CBS callsign in your report, this is what you will see:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a4c5db6f4ec6%26t%3dALLTV%26n%3d4

Fox is much weaker because it has a very directional transmitting antenna that sends only 11 kW out of 320 kW ERP.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a4c5db6f4ec6%26t%3dALLTV%26n%3d5
What you assume is correct; the seasonal change does make a difference. In the warmer weather, the Fox signal is not able to bend down to your location by refraction because the density of the air changes in warm weather.

I hadn't seen those pages, interesting -- I assume my house is way over on the right behind that big hill, heh.

I had no idea what all those numbers meant.

Forum member tripelo says it much better than I can:

Also interesting. When I hung around with my high school buddy in the mid-late '60s (he was a CB radio bug) he was always talking about "when the skip comes down" at night, and the signal would travel much farther. Sounds similar. And I know AM radio signals can travel tremendous distances at night, all related to what Tripelo is describing -- I'm assuming.

Are there any trees in the signal path from Rochester?

Does the problem get worse when it rains?

My house is surrounded by thousands of acres of mature hardwoods, and there are tens of thousands of trees between me and the transmitters, although I'm guessing the hill between us, which is probably 500' higher in elevation than my house is, and 3-ish miles to the north, is more of a factor.

Yes, rain tends to make an edgy signal go out. But, and I bet there's a scientific reason for this, when I was on analog the signal came in better when it was raining.

=======================================================

EDIT: I see you added that image after I started this post. Yes, it all makes sense. This is the first time I've ever seen any hard science for all this. Before, all I ever heard was opinions and guesses from people who didn't necessarily know any more about it than I did.

Thanks! Gotta love the internet!

rabbit73

17-Sep-2017, 1:31 AM

My house is surrounded by thousands of acres of mature hardwoods, and there are tens of thousands of trees between me and the transmittersTrees block TV signals.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html
scroll down to Trees and UHF
Yes, rain tends to make an edgy signal go out. But, and I bet there's a scientific reason for this, when I was on analog the signal came in better when it was raining.Wet trees block TV signals even worse than dry trees.

With analog TV, the signals just got a little more snowy as they got weaker.

With digital TV, they suddenly drop out at a certain point as they get weaker. This point is called the "Digital Cliff."

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2037&d=1465958114

The sudden dropout is caused by the FEC (Forward Error Correction system). The FEC is designed to correct the digital signal errors to maintain a good quality picture. As the digital signal gets weaker, there are more and more digital errors. The FEC has a limit to how many errors it can correct. Once that limit is exceeded, the FEC gives up, and the signal drops out.

Dagwood

19-Sep-2017, 12:35 AM

Trees block TV signals.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html
scroll down to Trees and UHF
Wet trees block TV signals even worse than dry trees.

With analog TV, the signals just got a little more snowy as they got weaker.

With digital TV, they suddenly drop out at a certain point as they get weaker. This point is called the "Digital Cliff."

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2037&d=1465958114

The sudden dropout is caused by the FEC (Forward Error Correction system). The FEC is designed to correct the digital signal errors to maintain a good quality picture. As the digital signal gets weaker, there are more and more digital errors. The FEC has a limit to how many errors it can correct. Once that limit is exceeded, the FEC gives up, and the signal drops out.

Yes, I found out the different ways the signals act in 2008 when some of the local channels started with digital. And I learned that antenna aiming is more important with digital.

Aside from that (and the problem of everything going dead for hours, twice in the past year) digital has been a huge plus for me. Instead of 3-4 channels I get 12-14.

Dagwood

25-Nov-2017, 3:07 AM

Back again. :(

I haven't had any more incidents of everything going completely out, but I am having reception problems.

As previously noted in this thread, I do not get FOX in the summertime but it always starts coming in around the end of September and lasts until maybe early May. This fall it didn't come in. So I've been on the roof numerous times rotating the antenna slightly either way. I have trees and a phone pole for reference points.

As time went on it started coming in, probably because the weather got colder, not from me adjusting the antenna.

So here we are in late November and I'm still having problems, not only with FOX but with CBS (my two weakest channels). I can't tell you how many times I've been on the roof (twice just today) and I'm getting tired of it. When winter sets in and there is snow on the roof, I will not go up there (too old for that stuff).

There has to be something wrong because I've never had problems like this, this late in the fall, since I installed everything new in 2011.

So tonight I re-checked the pre-amp, per the Wineguard clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNPb1XNBQSI) that rabbit posted above.

Power supply, 27.6 V - good
"ANT" connection on injector, 15.1 V - good

So the next step I guess is to check the coax that feeds the preamp on the roof. If that checks out good, what is my next step? I would assume the pre-amp itself is maybe weak, but is there a way of checking that? TIA. :D

EDITED TO ADD: The reception problems I am having now are just slight -- enough to be annoying like the audio cutting in and out, or occasional pixelation -- but sometimes more than I want to put up with so I have to switch to something other than CBS or FOX.

JoeAZ

25-Nov-2017, 1:01 PM

Dagwood

25-Nov-2017, 1:33 PM

If you have a Winegard antenna, you likely have the CB-8269
cartridge housing. That is the black box where you attach your
cable to the antenna. Those parts tend to get wet, deteriorate
with time and weather. Before your weather turns really bad,
you may want to replace that part or test it at the very least.

Yes, that's what I was thinking, as everything indoors seems to be good. I will test that end of the coax also, but how does one test the box itself?

rabbit73

25-Nov-2017, 5:29 PM

Hello again, Dagwood

Sorry you are having more trouble. Those two channels are very weak; it doesn't take much to knock them out.

You told us about your power inserter, but you didn't tell us what model of preamp you have.

You also didn't tell us what antenna you have. If you don't know the make and model, can you show us a photo of your antenna?

One thing might be different now: The trees might be thicker and taller now, so even if the leaves have fallen, the signals might be having a harder time now getting through.

If your antenna is made by Winegard, this video will show you how to check the CB8269 balun /combiner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQke5QYbng&list=UUJ958Wlnsule1MX8jCAfvPQ

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2792&stc=1&d=1499537712

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2793&stc=1&d=1499537896

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2794&stc=1&d=1499538211

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2795&stc=1&d=1499538454

You have checked the voltage coming out of the power inserter, but you haven't checked the voltage to the preamp at the upper end of the coax that connects to the preamp.

And you haven't checked the voltage to the preamp at the upper end of the coax when it is connected to the preamp. This is harder, because when you check the voltage to the preamp near the preamp when it is connected, you need access to the center conductor. I use a T-adapter for that:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2968&d=1511635684

This is for an RCA preamp, but the method is the same:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2969&d=1511636090

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2970&d=1511639045

Dagwood

25-Nov-2017, 6:59 PM

Hello again, Dagwood

Sorry you are having more trouble. Those two channels are very weak; it doesn't take much to knock them out.

You told us about your power inserter, but you didn't tell us what model of preamp you have.

You also didn't tell us what antenna you have. If you don't know the make and model, can you show us a photo of your antenna?

One thing might be different now: The trees might be thicker and taller now, so even if the leaves have fallen, the signals might be having a harder time now getting through.

If your antenna is made by Winegard, this video will show you how to check the CB8269 balun /combiner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQke5QYbng&list=UUJ958Wlnsule1MX8jCAfvPQ

You have checked the voltage coming out of the power inserter, but you haven't checked the voltage to the preamp at the upper end of the coax that connects to the preamp.

And you haven't checked the voltage to the preamp at the upper end of the coax when it is connected to the preamp. This is harder, because when you check the voltage to the preamp near the preamp when it is connected, you need access to the center conductor. I use a T-adapter for that:

This is for an RCA preamp, but the method is the same:

Thanks for the reply, Rabbit. I think everything I have from the power supply to the antenna is Wineguard.

I checked the voltage at the upper end of the coax, it shows 15.1 -- the same as it is on the lower end, indoors.

What it looks like around here . . .

Here is a view from the south, looking north towards Rochester where all the transmitters are (pik is about due north, Rochester is a bit to the west). Red arrow shows antenna which if you look carefully, you can see it is rotated a bit west:

https://i.imgur.com/YTzra0Q.jpg

Looking north from the roof:

https://i.imgur.com/Ayv7pmH.jpg

Looking south:

https://i.imgur.com/mVEVr2C.jpg

Looking north again. As you can see, not much changes from year to year. The hill shown in the FCC diagram (that you posted in September in this thread) is about 2-3 miles north of me, nothing but woods between me and the hill.

https://i.imgur.com/0o9cuHv.jpg

This all looks like a Wineguard, and makes sense as everything else is too:

https://i.imgur.com/kVRurcq.jpg

That checking stuff is a bit over my head. Wouldn't I be better off just buying a new preamp and taking my chances -- especially considering the two complete blackouts I've had in the past year or so? :confused:

rabbit73

25-Nov-2017, 8:20 PM

Thanks for the excellent photos. That looks like the Winegard HD7697P or 7698P.
That checking stuff is a bit over my head. Wouldn't I be better off just buying a new preamp and taking my chances -- especially considering the two complete blackouts I've had in the past year or so?That might be a good idea, as long as you understand that it could be something else like a bad connection in the CB-8269
cartridge housing (balun/combiner). The CB-8269 is an odd design. The forks make contact with the wires from the UHF and VHF sections in a way that doesn't look 100% reliable to me. There is a replacement available:
https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-CB-8269-Coupler-Platinum-Antennas/dp/B003H2G5ZM

https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=cb-8269

http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=cb-8269&d=Winegard-Replacement-Terminal-Board-for-CA-HD-Antennas-(CB8269)&post=

The trees and the hill certainly could be the major problems.

Dagwood

25-Nov-2017, 8:33 PM

Thanks for the excellent photos. That looks like the Winegard HD7697P or 7698P.
That might be a good idea, as long as you understand that it could be something else like a bad connection in the balun/combiner.

The trees certainly could be the major problem.

Trees: I've been here for 35 years, nothing has changed. Big trees get old and die, young trees replace them -- although a photo taken 35 years ago wouldn't look much different than these photos.

Last fall was no different than the previous 34 falls, but this fall is different. Just taking the knowns and thinking logically, I would conclude that it isn't the terrain/flora (which probably hasn't changed much since the ice age) there is something not quite right with the man-made antenna system.

As for a bad connector, would that have caused the two total blackouts I've had in the past year?

If I go this way, what preamp would you recommend?

rabbit73

25-Nov-2017, 8:45 PM

As for a bad connector, would that have caused the two total blackouts I've had in the past year?A bad connection ANYWHERE between the antenna and the TV could do that.

Possible preamps:

Antennas Direct Juice
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/JUICE.html

Channel Master 7777HD/Amplify (has high and low gain settings)
https://www.channelmaster.com/Amplify_TV_Antenna_Preamplifier_p/cm-7777hd.htm
on sale

JoeAZ

26-Nov-2017, 12:50 PM

Growing up in Cheektowaga and Orchard Park, NY we were able to
receive locals plus Toronto, Hamilton, Barrie, Peterborough, London
& Kitchener in Ontario plus Erie, PA. We rarely received Rochester
even though it was much closer than many of the others. After seeing
your photos, with the trees that tall and the hill, it is surprising that
you receive anything at all. None of that explains why you are having
the recent issues and the outages. Your Winegard antenna is a very
good one but the weakest link in the design is that CB-8269 housing.
I have replaced many of those over the years that fail due to the heat
we experience here in Arizona. They usually cost around $25.00
As Rabbit indicated, Every connection is a potential source for problems.
In my head, I'm thinking that those total blackouts were caused by
shorting at one of those connections. If your cables are fairly old, like
over 10 years, you may want to replace them with new, RG6. If you
are up to it, you could replace each of the connectors yourself but be
sure to weatherproof those outdoors with good silicone sealant.

Dagwood

26-Nov-2017, 7:37 PM

JoeAZ

26-Nov-2017, 9:39 PM

OTAFAN

26-Nov-2017, 10:17 PM

You could use this to seal all your connections:

https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Electronics-Original-104-Moldable/dp/B0002ZPINC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1511737594&sr=8-2&keywords=coax+seal

I have found coax seal to be easy to apply, will last as long as you need it and is easy to remove if necessary. Also keeps moisture out and very UV resistant.

Just a suggestion. Best holiday wishes.....

Dagwood

4-Dec-2017, 9:41 PM

Dagwood, here is what I would do.
Check each outdoor connection. Is there any corrosion? Any rust?
If so, that could be all or part of your problem.
I would run a temporary new and VERIFIED RG6 cable directly
from the antenna to a tv. See what you get. If reception remains
poor, I'd replace the CB-8269 Winegard housing. If reception is
improved, the next thing I would do would be to replace the
cable between the antenna and the preamp. I would then run the
temporary cable from the output of the preamp to a tv. See what
happens. If reception remains about the same, you many want to
replace the preamp. It should be helping you, not keeping things
the same or worse. In essence, you will be isolating some of the
most likely OUTDOOR culprits that are likely affecting your reception.
You might try replacing each of the outdoor connectors with new ones
but you might be opening yourself up to other problems. In the last
photo, it looks like one of the lines that go into the CB-8269 connector
box might be grounding out on a rusty screw. Be sure those lines do not
touch anywhere!!!!!
Finally, please be careful on that roof.......

UPDATE: The good news is that I didn't break a leg, nor die of exposure. The bad news is (was) that my ladder blew down about 4 this afternoon. My neighbor came home from work around 4:30, and although I can't really see their house I can see his headlights this time of year, and when he shut his lights off I started screaming like the proverbial banshee. I had been yelling "HELP" up and down the valley for a good half hour (zero traffic) and was getting a little hoarse by that time. Oh well.

They came right over and put the ladder back up. Whew. There is almost never any wind down here in this hole unless it comes from the southeast, and there must have been a big gust that blew it over. Oh well, things could have turned out much, much worse.

At any rate, I was up there cleaning my chimney and checking the antenna. TV reception has been pretty good since I posted last, but CBS would still have a little problem once in a while. FOX has been fine, and that is usually my weakest channel.

So I took that plastic housing off the antenna (after unplugging the power supply inside) and there was quite a bit cobwebs and other bug "trash" in there. I cleaned it up, and after I got back down to earth again, I plugged in the power supply and turned the TV on. Everything is okay, but it may take a few days to see if what I did is helping any with CBS.

A big thanks to all you guys for the help, and I'm probably not done yet. If everything is ok I will let it run til spring, and replace that housing then. Winter is supposed to come in with a roar in a day or two, I may not be able to get back up there til spring.

https://s19.postimg.org/tr5divgyr/cheers.gif

Dagwood

20-Dec-2017, 12:58 AM

UPDATE: The weather has been pretty cold the past 2 weeks, so TV reception has been fine. But now it's been warm and cloudy, and CBS is not coming in at all tonight. (I'd noticed some slight pixelation the last day or two.)

I have never had a problem with CBS (or FOX) this time of year, even if we had a warm spell. In fact, although CBS is weak, I've never had a problem with it at any time of the year since I installed this system in 2011. So I know something is not right.

Unless someone has some quick suggestions, I'm thinking of hiring someone to fix it. Although the preamp voltages have checked out well, could there be something else wrong with it that doesn't show up with a voltage test? Should I just buy a new one? Or hire someone? TIA!

rickbb

20-Dec-2017, 1:52 PM

"pretty cold" = dry, low or no humidity = good reception.
"warm and cloudy" = wet, humid = bad reception.

Sounds more and more like a weak corroded connection or balun somewhere. The moisture builds up and starts to short out or increasing resistance creating signal loss.

JoeAZ

20-Dec-2017, 5:45 PM

"So I took that plastic housing off the antenna (after unplugging the power supply inside) and there was quite a bit cobwebs and other bug "trash" in there. I cleaned it up, and after I got back down to earth again, I plugged in the power supply and turned the TV on. Everything is okay, but it may take a few days to see if what I did is helping any with CBS."

I frequently run into a situation as you describe above. In addition to cleaning
out the plastic housing, I also gently run some very fine sand paper or cloth
on the contact points and antenna lines where "contact" is made. It often
makes a huge difference.
I'm inclined to agree with Rickbb. When safe to do so, check each and every
outdoor connection point.

Dagwood

20-Dec-2017, 10:51 PM

I tried aiming it a bit each way today, but it didn't make any difference, CBS is totally dead. FOX comes in fine.

Thanks for the excellent photos. That looks like the Winegard HD7697P or 7698P.
That might be a good idea, as long as you understand that it could be something else like a bad connection in the CB-8269
cartridge housing (balun/combiner). The CB-8269 is an odd design. The forks make contact with the wires from the UHF and VHF sections in a way that doesn't look 100% reliable to me. There is a replacement available:
https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-CB-8269-Coupler-Platinum-Antennas/dp/B003H2G5ZM

https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=cb-8269

http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=cb-8269&d=Winegard-Replacement-Terminal-Board-for-CA-HD-Antennas-(CB8269)&post=

The trees and the hill certainly could be the major problems.

Rabbit: Is that a direct replacement for my setup, as far as you can tell by my pictures?

Growing up in Cheektowaga and Orchard Park, NY we were able to
receive locals plus Toronto, Hamilton, Barrie, Peterborough, London
& Kitchener in Ontario plus Erie, PA. We rarely received Rochester
even though it was much closer than many of the others. After seeing
your photos, with the trees that tall and the hill, it is surprising that
you receive anything at all. None of that explains why you are having
the recent issues and the outages. Your Winegard antenna is a very
good one but the weakest link in the design is that CB-8269 housing.
I have replaced many of those over the years that fail due to the heat
we experience here in Arizona. They usually cost around $25.00
As Rabbit indicated, Every connection is a potential source for problems.
In my head, I'm thinking that those total blackouts were caused by
shorting at one of those connections. If your cables are fairly old, like
over 10 years, you may want to replace them with new, RG6. If you
are up to it, you could replace each of the connectors yourself but be
sure to weatherproof those outdoors with good silicone sealant.

"So I took that plastic housing off the antenna (after unplugging the power supply inside) and there was quite a bit cobwebs and other bug "trash" in there. I cleaned it up, and after I got back down to earth again, I plugged in the power supply and turned the TV on. Everything is okay, but it may take a few days to see if what I did is helping any with CBS."

I frequently run into a situation as you describe above. In addition to cleaning
out the plastic housing, I also gently run some very fine sand paper or cloth
on the contact points and antenna lines where "contact" is made. It often
makes a huge difference.
I'm inclined to agree with Rickbb. When safe to do so, check each and every
outdoor connection point.

I re-read this thread, and from the comments made, I think I'll just order a new housing thing. For $24 delivered from Wineguard, it isn't worth my time to go up there and try to clean/test/fix the old one, which, as Rabbit noted, doesn't appear to be the best design anyway.

JoeAZ

21-Dec-2017, 12:20 PM

Dagwood

21-Dec-2017, 2:44 PM

That sounds like a good plan. Those lines/rods that go into the permanently attached portion with still need to be sanded/cleaned
to maximize reception.

Finally, I'm able to stream WHEC and WHAM news from my Roku.
I'd hate to hear about someone injured or worse trying to fix an
antenna.

PLEASE LET SOMEONE KNOW YOU ARE GOING ON YOUR ROOF.
Make arrangements to call them back in a certain period of time,
otherwise, they come over to help.

Ha, thanks Joe. :D Keep your eye on the news!

Some friends of mine suggested exactly what you recommended when I told them the story a couple of weeks ago. I didn't do that yesterday, but I did take my wireless land-line phone with me (no cell signal here), I tied a rope to the ladder, and had a second ladder in place in another spot.

When I got down yesterday, no CBS as I noted above. But later in the evening it came in fine (weather got colder).

I ordered a new housing from Wineguard Direct.

A big "Thanks!" to all, I will update as needed. https://i.imgur.com/56QZEHI.gif

http://i64.tinypic.com/24pjjmh.gif

Dagwood

22-Jun-2018, 2:15 AM

UPDATE:

I ordered that new housing thingy last winter. My channels were coming in fine after my last post, so the housing sat in its shipping box.

So here it is in late June and channel 8 is still coming in fine (I always lose 31 in May). As it is now, everything is normal and as expected, yet I've done nothing to the antenna, preamp, and the new housing has not been installed.

All of my equipment is the same as it was last December when 8 was giving me huge problems. So what was actually causing the reception problems, something atmospheric? (sunspots or something?)

TIA for your comments! :D

JoeAZ

22-Jun-2018, 12:11 PM

Dagwood

22-Jun-2018, 3:00 PM

Greetings Dagwood,

In retrospect, the issue with channel 8, WROC may have been
at their end. Perhaps they were running at lower power than
normal or their antenna may have needed some "tuning" to
perform at 100%. Glad you are able to enjoy CBS once again.
Enjoy your fabulous summer!

Thanks for your help and comments, Joe! Hopefully the problems were just with channel 8's signal not being up to par, as you suggested.

I don't know what I would do without you knowledgeable guys here on this website. I probably would have gone up on the roof and jumped off on purpose, lol. There is no cable available here, and I don't think there is enough open area for satellite either, so OTA is all I have.

https://s19.postimg.cc/lp0ltgcgz/thankyou.gif

EDIT: Just for giggles, this is what it looks like around here today as contrasted to the December pictures that I posted earlier in the thread:

http://i64.tinypic.com/xekaqh.jpg

rabbit73

22-Jun-2018, 7:21 PM

Thanks for the report and the photo in the summer.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3156&d=1529695081

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3157&d=1529695119

Even if your antenna system is in perfect condition, I think you will continue to have problems with the trees.

Fox is your weakest signal, and their transmitting antenna has a directional pattern that doesn't send much power south; it favors east and west of Rochester.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3158&d=1529695181

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3159&d=1529695221

After the FCC Repack of UHF channels, WHEC will stay on 10:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WHEC

WHAM will move from 13 to channel 9, so you will need to rescan:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WHAM

WXXI will move from 16 to 22:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WXXI

WROC from 45 to 21:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WROC

WUHF will stay on 28.
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WUHF

Transition Phase 4: Testing Begins: 6/22/2019 Phase Ends: 8/2/2019

https://www.rabbitears.info/repackchannels.php?country=US&city=&state=&mktid=99&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=

The only things I can think of to improve your reception would be to move your antenna higher to a location that doesn't have trees directly in front of it, or mount a smaller UHF only antenna on a tower to improve the reception of your weaker channels and combine it with your present antenna for VHF using a UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner.

In retrospect, the issue with channel 8, WROC may have been
at their end. Perhaps they were running at lower power than
normal or their antenna may have needed some "tuning" to
perform at 100%.

Yes, it is possible that WROC CBS, real channel 45, virtual channel 8.1, is running at reduced power for the safety of the tower workers mounting the new channel 21 antenna.

Dagwood

22-Jun-2018, 8:10 PM

Thanks for the report and the photo in the summer.

Fox is your weakest signal, and their transmitting antenna has a directional pattern that doesn't send much power south; it favors east and west of Rochester.

Yup, it never comes in during the summer, even 20-30 years ago when it was analog. Digital actually helped it; it stays on longer in the spring and comes back sooner in the fall. I gain maybe a month or more on each end.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3158&d=1529695181

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3159&d=1529695221

Not quite getting that last image. Where is Rochester and/or the transmitter? :confused:

After the FCC Repack of UHF channels, WHEC will stay on 10:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WHEC

WHAM will move from 13 to channel 9, so you will need to rescan:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WHAM

WXXI will move from 16 to 22:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WXXI

WROC from 45 to 21:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WROC

WUHF will stay on 28.
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WUHF

This is all news to me, when is it supposed to happen?

The only things I can think of to improve your reception would be to move your antenna higher to a location that doesn't have trees directly in front of it, or mount a smaller UHF only antenna on a tower to improve the reception of your weaker channels and combine it with your present antenna for VHF using a UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner.

I'm okay with what I have, and I can live without FOX for 4 months or so every year which is the only channel I lose -- if everything is working properly. Plus I have a ROKU stick so I can get way, way more than I even want to watch.

Thanks for your comments and help! :D

rabbit73

22-Jun-2018, 8:44 PM

This is all news to me, when is it supposed to happen?The FCC took away UHF channels 38 to 51 from TV broadcasters and gave them to the cellular companies. The TV stations had the choice of moving to a different UHF channel (14 to 36), a VHF-High channel (7 to 13), a VHF-Low channel (2-6), or going off the air. They did get paid to do it, but they weren't happy that the cellular companies had taken their channels.

The Rochester channels will change during the period of 6/22/2019 to 8/2/2019

rabbit73

22-Jun-2018, 10:19 PM

Not quite getting that last image. Where is Rochester and/or the transmitter? :confused:The transmitter is at the center of the pattern:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3161&d=1529706414

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3162&d=1529707158

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3163&d=1529709326

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3164&d=1529709349

Dagwood

22-Jun-2018, 10:22 PM

The FCC took away UHF channels 38 to 51 from TV broadcasters and gave them to the cellular companies. The TV stations had the choice of moving to a different UHF channel (14 to 36), a VHF-High channel (7 to 13), a VHF-Low channel (2-6), or going off the air. They did get paid to do it, but they weren't happy that the cellular companies had taken their channels.

The Rochester channels will change during the period of 6/22/2019 to 8/2/2019

Wow, no kidding. This is the first I've heard of it.

I do see that it is a year away, so that's probably why I've heard nothing on TV about it yet.

Will any of this make any of my channels better or worse?

rabbit73

22-Jun-2018, 11:31 PM

Wow, no kidding. This is the first I've heard of it.

I do see that it is a year away, so that's probably why I've heard nothing on TV about it yet.You can read about Repack here:
https://www.nab.org/repacking/

https://www.antennaweb.org/Info/FccRepackInfo

https://www.fcc.gov/about-fcc/fcc-initiatives/incentive-auctions

Will any of this make any of my channels better or worse?

Too soon to know; time will tell.

I don't see any proposed changes for WUHF Fox:
https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=413

It looks like WROC CBS will be sending less power in your direction on channel 21:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WROC
click on Technical Data

https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=73964

If you send me the exact coordinates of your antenna in a PM (Private Message), I can draw a terrain profile for the signal paths.

Dagwood

23-Jun-2018, 1:24 AM

You can read about Repack here:
https://www.nab.org/repacking/

https://www.antennaweb.org/Info/FccRepackInfo

https://www.fcc.gov/about-fcc/fcc-initiatives/incentive-auctions

Too soon to know; time will tell.

I don't see any proposed changes for WUHF Fox:
https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=413

It looks like WROC CBS will be sending less power in your direction on channel 21:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WROC
click on Technical Data

https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=73964

If you send me the exact coordinates of your antenna in a PM (Private Message), I can draw a terrain profile for the signal paths.

How do I do that? :confused:

Nascarken

23-Jun-2018, 4:33 PM

Hello there Rabbit sounds like someone is maybe turning off a light switch that is
Powering up the amp??funny thing just like that can happen to maybe his wife
Wonted him too go to bed.lol!!

rabbit73

24-Jun-2018, 2:51 AM

How do I do that? :confused:Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume you know how to send the coordinates to me in a PM (a forum Private Message) to me, so you must mean how to determine the coordinates of your antenna.

If you don't have a GPS, you can use the TVFool Interactive map browser.

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3171&d=1529810208

Once you have found your home, you can move the teardrop indicator to the location of the antenna by drag-and-drop. As you move the teardrop, the coordinates below the map will follow.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3168&d=1529808647

Move the white fist to the base of the teardrop until the index finger points to the base of the teardrop.
Left click the mouse and hold it down.
Move the indicator to the antenna location and release the left click.
The coordinates of the antenna will be below the map; copy and paste them.

Dagwood

24-Jun-2018, 3:04 AM

Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume you know how to send a PM (a forum Private Message) to me, so you must mean how to determine the coordinates of your antenna.

If you don't have a GPS, you can use the TVFool Interactive map browser.

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3167&d=1529808611

Once you have found your home, you can move the teardrop indicator to the location of the antenna by drag-and-drop. As you move the teardrop, the coordinates below the map will follow.

I just ran through it and now that I see it, I know I've done it before -- maybe last winter. At any rate, I will PM you the link.

rabbit73

24-Jun-2018, 3:22 AM

I edited the image, so there is a blank in your quote.

Thank you. I will work on it tomorrow.

rabbit73

24-Jun-2018, 3:30 AM

I do not see the coordinates in the PM, just a TVFool report.

The coordinates would look something like this:

42.759854, -77.443830

They would be below the map after the indicator is at the antenna location.

What you did was create a Radar plot using the button at the upper right corner of the map.

Dagwood

24-Jun-2018, 4:33 PM

Rabbit, I'm totally lost. I went to the link in post #47, (http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=59947&postcount=47) used the alternate method there because I don't have a very high speed connection, and sent you the results.

Everything you've written after that leaves me clueless, including the rest of post 47 below the link. :(

rabbit73

24-Jun-2018, 8:25 PM

Locations on a map are given using longitude and latitude coordinates.

If you are not able to give me the coordinates for your antenna location, an address, or an X on a map showing where you are in a PM, I will not be able to do an accurate terrain profile. Sorry.

rabbit73

27-Jun-2018, 7:15 PM

Nascarken

27-Jun-2018, 11:38 PM

Thank you for the additional information by PM. This profile shows that the WUHF and other Rochester signals have a hard time getting to your antenna because of the hill that blocks a direct signal path.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3172&d=1530126927

Looks like It's up with the ANTENNA maybe 40ft
Put it into the tv Fool report and see what you
Wined up with and set the ANTENNA on a 45/90AGL/DgAGL?
For that one channel i have looked into the tv Fool have
Playing with it by antennas higth by adding ft and pled
With the AGO frum,0,,to a 45DG,AGL.,too,a90 DGAGL?
What a BIG!! Improvement like a 1000+% so know!!
RAIBBIT.what does AGL,stand for does it stand for?DG,AGL?
On the tv Fool report? And you should move the ANTENNA too the
Left about 3.1/2 ft over TOO the left look at the picture of the tree's over the roof and
Where the ANTENNA is sitting know it's pointing right into the tree.?look ??

JoeAZ

28-Jun-2018, 1:21 PM

Looks like It's up with the ANTENNA maybe 40ft
Put it into the tv Fool report and see what you
Wined up with and set the ANTENNA on a 45/90AGL/DgAGL?
For that one channel i have looked into the tv Fool have
Playing with it by antennas higth by adding ft and pled
With the AGO frum,0,,to a 45DG,AGL.,too,a90 DGAGL?
What a BIG!! Improvement like a 1000+% so know!!
RAIBBIT.what does AGL,stand for does it stand for?DG,AGL?
On the tv Fool report? And you should move the ANTENNA too the
Left about 3.1/2 ft over TOO the left look at the picture of the tree's over the roof and
Where the ANTENNA is sitting know it's pointing right into the tree.?look ??

Thank goodness we have NASCARKEN to provide such insightfull
and knowledgeable content!

Tower Guy

29-Jun-2018, 6:07 PM

AGL=Above Ground Level

Nascarken

29-Jun-2018, 6:30 PM

AGL=Above Ground Level

Ok tower Gug!! AGL stands for Above ground level?
I think you are wrong becuse iT's after antennas higth of ft And then
ANTENNAs AGL of ANTENNA becuse on some ANTENNAs you can adjust the Agl
Frum 0,too a 35AGL,I know that the ANTENNA Direct 91xg,you can
Do that ? And their is an ANTENNA manufactures that sells stuff too
Put your antennas on a AGL.?

rabbit73

29-Jun-2018, 11:34 PM

RAIBBIT.what does AGL,stand for does it stand for?DG,AGL?
This is for AGL:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3173&d=1530315082

This is for DG,AGL = Degrees Angle:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3174&d=1530315237

Nascarken

30-Jun-2018, 12:21 PM

This is for AGL:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3173&d=1530315082

This is for DG,AGL = Degrees Angle:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3174&d=1530315237

Ok thank you Ribbit for the good information
happy,4of July to you and your family.
And everyone else on tv fool form.

Tower Guy

30-Jun-2018, 5:51 PM

Ok tower Gug!! AGL stands for Above ground level?
I think you are wrong becuse?

The FCC uses AGL to describe the height of the transmit antenna on a TV tower.

rabbit73

30-Jun-2018, 8:34 PM

The FCC uses AGL to describe the height of the transmit antenna on a TV tower.That is true.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3175&d=1530390833

Dagwood

1-Aug-2018, 2:34 AM

Thanks Rabbit. :)

UPDATE:

For several days now PBS (21) has been edgy -- audio breaking up, slight pixelation. It has been probably my strongest signal; have never had a problem with it since 2011 when I installed my present system.

So I put the new box thingy in that goes under the antenna (that the coax screws into) that I bought last winter. Didn't help at all.

So I started rotating the antenna. One way, no good. Went the other way and it's coming in fine, along with the other channels.

I'm thinking I should probably put a rotor on it, so I can compensate for what I assume are slight changes in the atmosphere, weather, seasons, etc. that are causing my occasional problems. Tweaking it from the living room seems a lot better than crawling up on the roof and having the ladder blow down like it did last December. :(

Thirty-some years ago I had a rotor, but after a while it would mess up and not work right. It ended up being a big PITA so I didn't use it anymore and eventually took it down.

I'm assuming today's rotors are much better . . . ?

Nascarken

1-Aug-2018, 12:33 PM

Hello there yes by hi gane

RF Steve

2-Aug-2018, 1:50 AM

Dagwood

4-Aug-2018, 9:06 PM

Wow, that's some pricey stuff. FWIW, I would probably only use it 5-10 times a year, and only tweaking it a short distance either way when I do use it.

I'll be 68 in a couple of weeks and will probably be either dead or severely demented in 10 years -- do you think a cheaper one will hold up that long?

JoeAZ

4-Aug-2018, 10:15 PM

Nascarken

4-Aug-2018, 11:05 PM

While the low cost rotors sold for TV antennas have probably not improved much. If you wish to spend the money you can purchase an amateur radio antenna rotor which will likely be much more reliable. Hy-Gain, or Yaesu.
http://www.hy-gain.com/Categories.php?sub=0&ref=64
https://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamrot/ysurot.html

By-,gain yes it's $300dollars shiped to your door
You call that cheep lol I Don T think so just buy another HDB91
For $40dollars with the free shipping and put them in a v pattern
And for get the rotor it can be a problem some time,s :eek:

Nascarken

4-Aug-2018, 11:16 PM

Greetings Dagwood,

Happy, Happy Birthday to you!
Having lived in W.N.Y. for my first twenty years and seen
the fun weather, I'd say yes. Given the infrequent use and
minimal rotation, you should be good to go. I would avoid
using the rotor when there is icing, whenever possible. That
would cause problems long term. Be safe on that roof and
be sure to alert someone where and when you'll be up there!

Joe in Prescott, AZ

I dont think you will find a rotor for less than $145dollars
Trust and believe me IT'S cheaper to get an OTHER HDB91
And put it on the same pole position it in a v pattern set them and
For get them and sit back and relax and enjoy the football game and have a cold one lol

Dagwood

5-Aug-2018, 12:22 AM

Greetings Dagwood,

Happy, Happy Birthday to you!
Having lived in W.N.Y. for my first twenty years and seen
the fun weather, I'd say yes. Given the infrequent use and
minimal rotation, you should be good to go. I would avoid
using the rotor when there is icing, whenever possible. That
would cause problems long term. Be safe on that roof and
be sure to alert someone where and when you'll be up there!

Joe in Prescott, AZ

Thanks Joe! http://i53.tinypic.com/103ip84.gif

Heh, yeah I learned my lesson last winter about getting up on the roof out here and nobody knowing about it. :(

Any particular rotor you'd recommend that's less than an arm and a leg?

Nascarken

5-Aug-2018, 1:25 AM

Thanks Joe! http://i53.tinypic.com/103ip84.gif

Heh, yeah I learned my lesson last winter about getting up on the roof out here and nobody knowing about it. :(

Any particular rotor you'd recommend that's less than an arm and a leg?

Those day's are gone for ever the channel master rotor is not that good
The rca is junk and they get a lot of money for the junk the hi gane rotors
Are pricy but work well but it's a lot of money and no one else is making
Rotors no more for the tv antenna so either you point the ANTENNA just
Right or buy 2of the same antennas installed in a v pattern will work well
no b.s. antenna installers use it for a lot of applications becuse iT's better
Then using a rotor and one less thing to worry about its the way too GO
And you will never look back of get back on the roof like I said set it and forget it I am sure that you will not have a problem with setting it up if you use
2HDB91 2ft apart in a v pattern you will receive BROADCASTING station that you are looking too get in the different direction of the tower's good luck p.s.I
Suggests that you use the channel master 7777AMP with the one in and the one out.good luck and ask rabbit about this set up I guarantee it will work well for you and you will be happy than a pig in sht.lol and if you need some help with it I am a few hours away pay for my gas and I will help you set it up I am in mass well good luck and be safe on the roof!

rabbit73

5-Aug-2018, 1:37 PM

.....no one else is making Rotors no more for the tv antenna so either you point the ANTENNA just Right or buy 2of the same antennas installed in a v pattern will work well.....no b.s. antenna installers use it for a lot of applications becuse iT's better Then using a rotor and one less thing to worry about its the way too GO.....you use 2HDB91 2ft apart in a v pattern you will receive BROADCASTING station that you are looking too get in the different direction of the tower's good luck..... ask rabbit about this set up I guarantee it will work well for you and you will be happy than a pig in sht.lolInteresting idea.....I don't know how to do the v pattern. Are the antennas separate and you use a switch to change from one to the other, or are they combined together? If they are combined, what do you use to combine them?

Nascarken

5-Aug-2018, 2:20 PM

rabbit73

5-Aug-2018, 10:28 PM

Hello there Rabbit 73, you can use a T connector and yes the ANTENNA's are combined into one I
Suggest you use a channel master 7777amp the ANTENNA's are separated 2,feet apart
And the feed line frum the ANTENNA to the T should be 2ft long.And out of the T should be as short as you can get it to the amp in put. Use RG,11, and this set up is for 2,HDB91,
That are only a UHF,outdoor tv antenna,good luck..And ha rabbit 73 hamer what else
Do you think you will receive with this antenna set-up tack a close look at the feed??Thank you for the details.

I don't need to set up two UHF antennas now aimed in different directions but I wanted to know how you did it. Calaveras has two 91XG antennas aimed in the same direction and he connects the two feedlines in parallel which is like using a T adapter. This gives an impedance of 37.5 ohms, which is converted back to 75 ohms using a 1/4 transformer section of 50 ohm coax going to the input of the preamp.

https://i.imgur.com/BQ6FLNV.jpg

Nascarken

5-Aug-2018, 10:59 PM

I Don T mean to be a problem with recving but I am old school and Rf will
Never change if you have the right ANTENNAs to receive it and the right ANTENNA
Set up,he'll and for that guarantee Don T for get about the channel master 7777AMP??
Look rabbit for some reason yes some one hoo is good for the ANTENNA installed it
Will cost you ha rabbit WHERE Did you find that bs fru m lol and with the channel master 7777amp and the way I explained it to everyone on here I should probably get a 10% charge for my experience the feed line frum the ANTENNA to the T is a diepole
For hi vh F with the channel master amp it will receive the vhf hi pleas do your
Homework and stop snowballing me becuse I know what it takes to get the job done?
So rabbit not to bust your bubble I think you are why in over your head ,lol

Dagwood

7-Aug-2018, 12:32 AM

Thanks Rabbit. :)

UPDATE:

For several days now PBS (21) has been edgy -- audio breaking up, slight pixelation. It has been probably my strongest signal; have never had a problem with it since 2011 when I installed my present system.

So I put the new box thingy in that goes under the antenna (that the coax screws into) that I bought last winter. Didn't help at all.

So I started rotating the antenna. One way, no good. Went the other way and it's coming in fine, along with the other channels.

I'm thinking I should probably put a rotor on it, so I can compensate for what I assume are slight changes in the atmosphere, weather, seasons, etc. that are causing my occasional problems. Tweaking it from the living room seems a lot better than crawling up on the roof and having the ladder blow down like it did last December. :(

Well I lost 21 again. I was on the roof today (took cordless phone with me!) moved the antenna back and forth but could not pick up 21 at all. This has never happened before.

So last week I replaced the junction box under the antenna, which didn't help at all. Is there another obvious weak spot in my system? It was all brand-new in 2011 and has worked flawlessly until last December.

JoeAZ

7-Aug-2018, 1:32 PM

Greetings Dagwood,
I have a couple thoughts you may consider. I'd test an 8 bay bow tie antenna
or similar on your roof, completely independent of your current system. That
means trying new wire directly to the tv along with the new antenna. You will
need another person at the antenna or tv to complete the test. If reception improves,
you will have to look at your entire current system for issues. My opinion is that
the test will yield about the same results as you currently experience. In my head
I believe that all those trees are the real culprit........

Nascarken

7-Aug-2018, 2:49 PM

Yes. They are the problem of the RECEIVE wate till the fall.lol

JoeAZ

7-Aug-2018, 6:36 PM

Nascarken

7-Aug-2018, 9:19 PM

Hello well that sucks but I am sure it will be back up and running as soon as possible
It does happen some times

Dagwood

7-Aug-2018, 11:19 PM

WXXI PBS Rochester, N.Y. suffered a major transmitter failure.
See story below.

http://www.wxxinews.org/post/update-wxxi-tv-reception

My guess is that they were operating at reduced power prior to
the failure which would explain your reception issues.

Ha! Joe I owe you another one! Yes, that explains everything. One doesn't normally expect a TV station to go down for days, so I assumed it was me.

And I had just composed a huge message, outlining everything I could think of, and came here to post it and saw your new post about WXXI (which is coming in fine now).

From everything that happened in the past several days, it finally all makes sense.

Thanks again. https://i.imgur.com/QqlHfuc.gif

Tower Guy

8-Aug-2018, 12:57 PM

Here is an article about the WXXI antenna.

https://www.fybush.com/site-of-the-week-1272012-deconstructing-pinnacle-hill-rochester/

Dagwood

8-Aug-2018, 1:04 PM

Here is an article about the WXXI antenna.

https://www.fybush.com/site-of-the-week-1272012-deconstructing-pinnacle-hill-rochester/

Thanks! :D

JoeAZ

8-Aug-2018, 11:43 PM

Here is an article about the WXXI antenna.

https://www.fybush.com/site-of-the-week-1272012-deconstructing-pinnacle-hill-rochester/

Really interesting reading....................
Thanks for the post.

Dagwood

22-Aug-2018, 12:26 AM

Another little incident to add:

The last few nights I had problems getting channel 13; the audio would cut in and out and the picture would distort, although never go away completely. Ch 13 has always been strong and I've never had any problems getting it.

When I do have reception problems I usually check my bedroom TV also, to confirm that the problem is upstream from the TVs -- which it always has been.

So last night the living room TV was not getting 13 very well, so I check the BR TV and it was okay. Wut??

I check the connection on the back of the bad TV. I wiggled it a bit and the signal came in good. I made sure the nut was snug and left it. So it's either the cable or the TV terminal, most likely the cable I would think.

I'm leaving it alone for now. However, a question for the gurus: Could this connection problem only affect ONE channel? Doesn't make sense to me, but I know nothing about the technicals of all this.

JoeAZ

22-Aug-2018, 12:53 PM

jrgagne99

24-Aug-2018, 5:21 PM

I have heard that it is also best to avoid mixing RG-59 and RG-6 into and out of of connectors because of the different diameters of the center conductors of each. The thicker RG-6 center conductor can "stretch" the female parts of connectors so that they don't work as well when you put RG-59 back into them, and negatively impact signal transmission. Also, if the ends of center conductors are snipped so they become flattened (non-factory cutting), it can cause problems. Best to cut them so they come to a nice spear-like point, if possible. Rabbit has some nice example pictures which he may post.

rabbit73

24-Aug-2018, 6:25 PM

The thicker RG-6 center conductor can "stretch" the female parts of connectors so that they don't work as well when you put RG-59 back into them, and negatively impact signal transmission.That is true.
Rabbit has some nice example pictures which he may post.Here they are:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2816&d=1501113567

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2817&d=1501113723

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2818&d=1501114115

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2819&d=1501114252

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2820&d=1501114379

Dagwood

25-Aug-2018, 12:22 AM

Greetings Dagwood,

Yes, yes, yes. I had a similar problem with one of my home
televisions. Rf 6, which is a translator for NBC, KNAZ Flagstaff,
would intermittently have issues. It is one of the stronger signals
here but even so, it was the only channel I had problems with.
I now tighten all connections by hand and then finish with a small
wrench......

Hey Joe! I hope all is well with you. :D

More problems, surprise surprise. Channel 8 (CBS) has been out for a couple of days now. I was on the roof a couple of hours ago (no wind, but I took cordless phone with me anyway, lol) and no matter where I turned the antenna I could not get anything at all from 8. (What I do is open my 8 foot glass door and crank the volume up on the TV before I climb he ladder. It is tuned to the channel I'm trying to tweak in. When the audio comes in, I can hear it from the roof.)

Channel 8 was always one of my weakest channels, but I never really had trouble getting it, so this was curious indeed especially considering the weather: clear and cool.

So I started this post, and after the first couple sentences I decided to see if 8 was having transmission problems -- as 21 was a while back, that YOU alerted me to. Thanks for that. :)

So here it is, (https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/local-news/news-8-still-working-to-correct-transmitter-issue/1390933806) right from their website.

"A specialist coming in Friday will examine and hopefully be able to solve the issue."

Well it's Friday night and it isn't fixed yet. But at least I know what the problem is, and that it is out of my control.

EDIT @ 8:54 PM: So a half-hour after making this post I turn the TV on, and there is channel 8! All is well in the world again -- I can watch That 70s Show, and Heidi (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/homeimprovement/images/8/86/440full-debbe-dunning.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160615063523) on Home Improvement.

JoeAZ

25-Aug-2018, 1:13 PM

Greetings Dagwood,

I suspect many, many stations have issues from time to time.
Some of those issues are made public but sometimes they are not.

Take Care, Joe
GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dagwood

26-Aug-2018, 2:32 PM

Greetings Dagwood,

I suspect many, many stations have issues from time to time.
Some of those issues are made public but sometimes they are not.

Take Care, Joe
GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey AZ bud!

Yes, I'm sure they have problems, as I've experienced with both PBS and CBS just within the past few weeks. Because my digital reception with some stations can be edgy from atmospheric conditions, or certain station signals are always weak because of my location, my first assumption is that the problem is always with MY antenna system.

I will have to stop thinking that way when I have additional problems and will check online first. This actually makes sense because those two stations above just went out completely and totally, were 100% dead. When I have reception problems that are on my end the audio starts cutting out, then the picture stalls, etc. it doesn't just go completely dead.

Here's something I've been wondering: When I was young (long time ago) stations would of course go haywire from time to time, but it only seemed like it would be for a short time -- an hour or two -- not days like now.

Just guessing: Digital broadcast systems are more complex (more potential things to go wrong) than analog, and:

In the old days, OTA was all there was, so when the signal went out it was a very high priority to get fixed, not so today with cable, etc.

Comments anyone?

Joe, you are a Bills fan? Did you tell me that some time ago? -- sounds familiar. Ha, we will see if this year is any different.

Tower Guy

26-Aug-2018, 6:23 PM

Digital equipment is harder to fix than analog, but it doesn’t fail as often. That makes it less likely that a failed part is kept around as a spare. It also means that the maintenance staff is smaller and tends to be more specialized.

In the case of WXXI the failure was on the tower. The station does not have a climber on staff. The climber they hired came from Syracuse. (Alpha Antenna Service) I don’t know what failure they found nor if the failed part happened to be available. I did learn that the WXXI tower suffers from a vortex problem, meaning that it oscillates in the wind. That causes mechanical stress on the antenna and transmission line.

I am a retired TV engineer who also did a bit of tower climbing and antenna troubleshooting. Like Joe, I grew up in WNY and still root for the Bills.

Dagwood

26-Aug-2018, 9:44 PM

Tower Guy

27-Aug-2018, 6:01 PM

Where in WNY did you grow up? I'm from Webster (outside of Rochester) originally, and have been "down in a holler" between Honeoye and Canandaigua Lakes for the past 36 years.

I grew up in the Town of Wheatfield in Niagara County. From there we received TV from Buffalo, Toronto, and Hamilton.

The WXXI tower was built by Fred Nudd, located on Rt 104 in Ontario, NY. I met Fred in 1975. The owner of Alpha is Rodney Gifford. I hired Rodney many times. He does excellent work.

Dagwood

28-Aug-2018, 12:45 AM

I grew up in the Town of Wheatfield in Niagara County. From there we received TV from Buffalo, Toronto, and Hamilton.

The WXXI tower was built by Fred Nudd, located on Rt 104 in Ontario, NY. I met Fred in 1975. The owner of Alpha is Rodney Gifford. I hired Rodney many times. He does excellent work.

One of my sisters lives about a mile north of 104, in Ontario. We all graduated from Webster schools.

What company is "Alpha"? Is that who Fred worked for? :confused:

rabbit73

28-Aug-2018, 2:36 AM

One of my sisters lives about a mile north of 104, in Ontario. We all graduated from Webster schools.

What company is "Alpha"? Is that who Fred worked for? :confused:Tower Guy's background is a TV station engineer. He knows a lot about towers, antennas, and TV reception. See his post #91 above.

Alpha Antenna Service, Inc., located in Manlius, NY, was established in 1980. Its CEO is Rodney L. Gifford.
http://wirelessestimator.com/content/articles/?pagename=Tower-Design-Construction_News
scroll down to
Three workers hospitalized after rigging
accident near Utica, New York

https://www.google.com/search?ei=8bCEW8STEOaY0wL2pouIAQ&q=Alpha+Antenna+Service%2C+Inc.%2C+located+in+Manlius%2C+NY&oq=Alpha+Antenna+Service%2C+Inc.%2C+located+in+Manlius%2C+NY&gs_l=psy-ab.12...1142408.1142408.0.1145412.1.1.0.0.0.0.230.230.2-1.1.0....0...1..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.Nc87P1rbB8k

JoeAZ

28-Aug-2018, 1:22 PM

Hey AZ bud!

Yes, I'm sure they have problems, as I've experienced with both PBS and CBS just within the past few weeks. Because my digital reception with some stations can be edgy from atmospheric conditions, or certain station signals are always weak because of my location, my first assumption is that the problem is always with MY antenna system.

I will have to stop thinking that way when I have additional problems and will check online first. This actually makes sense because those two stations above just went out completely and totally, were 100% dead. When I have reception problems that are on my end the audio starts cutting out, then the picture stalls, etc. it doesn't just go completely dead.

Here's something I've been wondering: When I was young (long time ago) stations would of course go haywire from time to time, but it only seemed like it would be for a short time -- an hour or two -- not days like now.

Just guessing: Digital broadcast systems are more complex (more potential things to go wrong) than analog, and:

In the old days, OTA was all there was, so when the signal went out it was a very high priority to get fixed, not so today with cable, etc.

Comments anyone?

Joe, you are a Bills fan? Did you tell me that some time ago? -- sounds familiar. Ha, we will see if this year is any different.

Not too terribly long ago, our CBS affiliate suffered a major failure
at their South Mtn Tower in Phoenix, AZ. While satellite and cable
viewers were unaffected, broadcast viewers in the Northern 2/3 of
Arizona were without CBS for 5 days. You are correct in your assesment
that broadcast is not as important as it once was. You are also
correct with your assertion that stations have downsized staff and
maintenance has been reduced.
I regularly watch newscasts from WGRZ NBC and WKBW ABC Buffalo
and sometimes watch WHEC and WHAM from Rochester as well.
I miss the area and people in some ways but I sure don't miss the
weather...... You can take the boy out of Buffalo but you can't take
Buffalo out of the boy. i've lived 2/3 of my life in Arizona. In some
ways it is magical here. The sunrises and sunsets are often spectacular!

Nascarken

28-Aug-2018, 3:47 PM

A pice sand paper work'S well for that problem!!!

Dagwood

26-Sep-2018, 10:06 PM

@ Tower Guy, or anyone: How do you find out if a transmitter is down?

I lost channel 8 (WROC) from Rochester last night. Still completely dead 20 hours later on both TVs, all other channels are fine.

After checking WROC's website, I Googled every search term I could think of but cannot find any current info on them.

ADTech

26-Sep-2018, 10:15 PM

Check their Facebook page or website...

JoeAZ

27-Sep-2018, 1:08 PM

You can call the station and possibly talk to someone in their engineering
department. It is entirely possible they were operating at reduced power
while making some technical adjustments.......

rickbb

27-Sep-2018, 8:45 PM

Last year we lost the local CBS station, (WFMY Greensboro NC), their tower took a direct lighting strike. Cable, Sat and internet was still was online, but us OTA guys had to wait weeks for them to order parts, get them delivered and installed before they came back on the air.

Enough of us complained they let us log on to their internet feed for free until they got their tower rebuilt. :)

Dagwood

27-Sep-2018, 9:13 PM

I had a friend look, and somehow she found the info that I couldn't: Lightning hit them Tuesday night and PBS also, but PBS got their signal back up fairly quickly. Channel 8 just came back on sometime between noon and 5 pm tonight.

As mentioned in my previous post, I searched all over channel 8's website but never found any mention of it. That seems pretty dumb, I wonder why they wouldn't post it?

At any rate, thanks to all that replied. :D

JoeAZ

28-Sep-2018, 1:17 PM

Statmanmi

28-Sep-2018, 5:13 PM

Joe's advice about not assuming it's your end having the problem is sound.

But some stations are better than others regarding information. Yet the suggestion to check BOTH their website and their Facebook is solid.

In my state, a transmitter fire a month ago at the unoccupied building at the base of the tower for WWTV 9.x and WFQX 32.x still has them hindered:

https://www.rbr.com/northern-michigan-cbs-affiliate-crippled-by-transmitter-fire/

They've been doing good to have news article postings on their website and updating the "Reception Troubleshooting" instructions provided there.

But, they did put more information on their Facebook page than what was passed along on the main website. Luckily someone on a different TV forum pasted this up, since I myself am not a Facebook user:

~~~~~~~~~~

Channel 9: We are currently running about 75% of our normal power on a “loaned” broadcast transmitter. It is broadcasting CBS on 9.1, Local 32/Fox on 9.2, MeTV on 9.3, and the CW on 9.4.

Channel 10: Our broadcast channels on 10 (Goetzville) are currently running at full power with normal broadcast channels

Channel 45: Our broadcast channels on 45 (Vanderbilt) are currently running at full power with normal broadcast channels

Channel 32: Restoration on Local 32 proves to be a major undertaking – a key component to the 32 transmission line was lost in the fire, and new parts need to be manufactured.

New transmitters for channel 9 and channel 32 are also being manufactured. There is typically an 8-week lead time on completion.

We thank you for the patience during this trying time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

They have had other outages over the last few years due to ice and other situations where they post insight rather promptly. And because Heritage (WWTV) runs WFQX via Shared Services Agreement, they've also accomplished other temporary steps like this time for adding subchannels.

It could be that OTA is a higher priority to them, as there has also been a history of retransmission fee disputes. The most recent one was just settled (after the fire-caused outage)--so maybe ownership and management recognize that those situations have slightly upped the OTA viewer count.

Cheers!
Statmanmi

Dagwood

29-Sep-2018, 6:23 PM

This tells us several important lessons. Broadcast television stations
frequently have issues which affect reception. They are not in any big
hurry to get their OTA signal back for viewers. They often don't even
inform viewers of any issues they are having. Finally, when reception
is lost or problematic on one channel, don't always assume it is YOUR
system!!!!!!

Hi Joe. :D

Yes, it seems that they have more long-distance problems now than when they were still analog. As I found out, channel 8 here was still transmitting but on low power after the lightning strike, which didn't do me any good being so far away.

All the TV transmitters in Rochester are on Pinnacle Hill, so when there's a storm/lightning, etc. often more than one goes out, as was the case this week when PBS went out along with 8. But PBS got back on fairly quickly.

Dagwood

29-Sep-2018, 6:36 PM

Joe's advice about not assuming it's your end having the problem is sound . . .

Cheers!
Statmanmi

I never really thought that, because channel 8 suddenly went off, completely dead. I scanned through the other channels, which were fine, until I came to PBS which was also completely dead. My second TV was the same.

At that point I thought "Uh oh, something's going on at Pinnacle Hill." (see my previous post)

There was a cold front that was supposed to come through that evening, which it did but it didn't amount to much here, just a bit of rain. But Rochester, being 30-some miles away got a lot of lightning, and there was the problem.

FWIW: After an hour or two I checked 8's website, nothing, nor did a broad Google search bring up anything current. I don't Facebook so that was out, although a friend did check it for me and there was nothing on 8's FB page, but she did find the story on their competitor's page, channel 10.

Go figure.