help with antenna selection

[corson6]

Great to be on this very cool forum! I am in the middle of 8 acres of woods and tired of paying Dish Network $$$! What would be my best choice for an outdoor antenna in my spot? Indoors I can get about 6 channels but many of them freeze up and drop out. One tower is about a mile away and others are back SW. Is a rotor the best way to go? Or multiple antennas? Lots of trees, but I'm kind of on a ridge. Thanks in advance! Here is my report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a4da002f235f

[jrgagne99]

Welcome to the forum Corson!

What would be my best choice for an outdoor antenna in my spot?

Difficult to answer "best choice" without more details on how you define that.

Are you targeting specific stations in the lower part of the yellow and red regions in your report? Or are you only after reliable reception of the major networks? Do you care about antenna size, cost, aesthetics, etc?

You have a nice report with pretty strong signals on the major networks. What are you using for an indoor antenna? I would expect an indoor antenna like the Mohu Leaf would pull in all the major networks if you hung it on a west-facing wall. Mine reliably pulls in a UHF station on real-Ch-25 with a Noise Margin of 27 dB. Others will no doubt chime in with additional ideas.

[corson6]

Thanks for the reply. I currently have a RCA 360 flat square white antenna that claims a 40 mile radius. I'm looking to get as many channels as I can. With the exception of the tower that I can see out my window, all the other stations freeze intermittently.

[jrgagne99]

I'm looking to get as many channels as I can.

In that case, I suggest the Winegard 7689P. Available at Walmart.com for $101, including shipping. Get a high quality mast-mounted preamp such as the KT-200 (kitztech.com) and a rotor. Use new RG-6 coax.

If you're not happy with that, a two-antenna solution may pull in a few more channels, such as combining the MCM 30-2476 VHF-Hi yagi and Antennas direct 91XG. Combine with the Antennas Direct UVSJ diplexer, then feed to preamp.

Avoid antennas with VHF-lo elements (e.g. Channel Master 5020), as these are not useful in your situation (no VHF-lo channels in range).

[rickbb]

You have very close towers, so close that a pre-amp will do more harm than good. It will over power those close stations so much that you tuner will overload and you won't get any channels.

Start with a small roof/eave mounted antenna aimed north west, short cable run to just one TV, and go from there.

[ADTech]

rickbb is correct, do NOT use a preamp (especially the KT200 which will overload very easily) with a tower less than 2 miles away. Our Juice could be used as it won't overload, but it will likely increase the odds that your tuner will overload instead.

Start without any amp at all and evaluate reception barefoot.

[jrgagne99]

You have very close towers, so close that a pre-amp will do more harm than good. It will over power those close stations so much that you tuner will overload and you won't get any channels.

rickbb is correct, do NOT use a preamp (especially the KT200 which will overload very easily) with a tower less than 2 miles away.

Quite correct. I was blinded by the OP's desire to pull in "as many channels as [he could]", plus my own (limited) personal OTA experience with no strong signals nearby.

[Tower Guy]

In that case, I suggest the Winegard 7689P.

If you're not happy with that, a two-antenna solution may pull in a few more channels, such as combining the MCM 30-2476 VHF-Hi yagi and Antennas direct 91XG. Combine with the Antennas Direct UVSJ diplexer, then feed to preamp.



In my opinion all of those UHF antennas are too directional. I'd consider a 4 bay UHF (or C2) and a ANT 751 (used as a VHF only antenna) coupled together with a UVSJ.

[jrgagne99]

OP said he wanted as many channels as possible. That's why I suggested those directional antennas and a rotor.

Would a 4-bay or an ANT-751 pull in the channels in red on his report (WEIU, WTHI, WTWO, WAMV)?

[JoeAZ]

Because of your signals are primarily UHF and coming from a number of directions all basically Northwest of you, I would suggest either a 4 bay UHF antenna from MCM Electronics
with one of their VHF HI antennas or Antennas Direct 4max. Avoid amplification at all costs..... it will only cause you
problems because of your proximity to your station a mile
away. Use good RG6 cable, keeping it as short
as possible and be sure to properly ground your system.
The only other stations within reasonable range are those
of Terre Haute. They would likely offer a repeat of what
you already get so any benefit would be limited......

[corson6]

Thanks for all the replies! JoeAZ - do you couple these two antennas you suggest? What directions am I pointing them? Once I'm in the house with the RG6 what's the best way to distribute the signal to multiple TVs?

[rabbit73]

You have a problem location with channels in different directions, trees in the signal paths, and a very strong local signal that is already in the overload category. The ideal solution would require multiple antennas and filters, but a simple solution might work with a little experimentation.

I suggest an Antennas Direct C2V, aimed at about 270 degrees magnetic to favor NBC and CBS. Fox is in a different direction, but it might come in. The VHF dipole for the C2V should be able to pick up PBS.

My biggest concern is with WICD that is so strong it will prevent the reception of the weaker channels, as you have already experienced with your indoor antenna. It is, unfortunately in the same general direction as your other channels, so a directional antenna probably will not help, unless you are willing to experiment further, to place WICD in a null in the antenna pattern to make it weaker.

If you are not willing to do that type of experiment, then you will probably need a custom filter from Tin Lee Electronics to make WICD on real channel 41 weaker. WICD will be moving to channel 32 in a few years, so you would have to order another custom filter.
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wicd

WICD has a Noise Margin of 77.3 dB, even before adding antenna gain.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2236&d=1471824123

Interpreting Noise Margin in the TV Fool Report
http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Reception/tvfool_nm.html

This might work:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2809&stc=1&d=1500054625

The narrow beamwidth of the 91XG will make WICD a lot weaker, but it has more gain than necessary. Insert an attenuator in the coax of about 10 or 15 dB to keep WICD weak without making NBC too weak.

If you need WILL PBS, add an MCM 30-2475 VHF antenna aimed at 272 degrees magnetic. Combine the two antennas with a UVSJ.

[JoeAZ]

Thanks for all the replies! JoeAZ - do you couple these two antennas you suggest? What directions am I pointing them? Once I'm in the house with the RG6 what's the best way to distribute the signal to multiple TVs?

I would start simple. Order either the 4 bay UHF antenna from MCM which
are currently on clearance for about $19.00 or the antennas direct c2v
or antennas direct 4 max. Connect the antenna of your choice to one
television on a temporary basis, through a door or window. One person
watches the tv, hopefully with a signal meter, and the other positions
the antenna on the roof. I'd start your aim at about 250 degrees which
will help reduce the overload from WICD. Continue to rotate clockwise,
260,270,280 degrees, scanning for your channels in each position.
You might just be able to receive PBS from WEIU and not need any VHF
antenna at all. It's not an easy prospect but if you can position the
antenna where it cannot be seen line of sight by WICD, you have a
decent chance of success.

[rabbit73]

It's not an easy prospect but if you can position the
antenna where it cannot be seen line of sight by WICD, you have a
decent chance of success.That's an interesting idea; it might work. It would be necessary to ground the coax with a grounding block to make WICD weaker.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2811&stc=1&d=1500059185

If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge which will tend to discourage a strike, but the system will not survive a direct strike.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1559&d=1441917363

[JoeAZ]

In this case, you may NOT WANT to mount a roof antenna.
It will be better to use your home as a block to WICD.
A "J" mounted antenna, properly grounded, gives you, by
far, the best chance for success..... You can mount on
the eaves, on the side of your home or even from a ground
mast. Be certain to keep the antenna away from trees so
it has a good view of your weakest signals...

[corson6]

Wow! You guys are awesome! I will get busy on this and report back. You can see what I man about the trees....

[corson6]

OK many months later we are getting good results with an antenna in the back yard (temp. mounted on a tripod stand) but sometimes having problems pulling in WCCU-DT 27.1 360 north about 17.8 miles away. It's there but video "freezes" intermittently. Some nights it's great, other nights audio comes through but video freezes. Could this be from interference of WICD 41 being so close? or is it another issue? I did discover a antenna in the attic a very long (6 feet?) antenna that works great but still can't reliably pull in WCCU. I aimed it 360 degrees in the attic, but getting the same results and the back yard bay-style antenna. I'm real close to pulling the plug on dish, would be great to get these channels. Thanks in advance!

[rabbit73]

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3099&d=1519074225

Thank you for the report and the interesting photo of your attic antenna. I edited the photo to make it easier to see the antenna.

Is the antenna aimed at WCCU?
Could this be from interference of WICD 41 being so close?
Yes

Have you tried a shield to block the antenna from receiving the very strong WICD signal, as JoeAZ suggested? Aluminum foil on cardboard might work, since it's in the attic.

OK many months later we are getting good results with an antenna in the back yard (temp. mounted on a tripod stand) but sometimes having problems pulling in WCCU-DT 27.1 360 north about 17.8 miles away.What antenna are you using in the back yard?

Is the antenna coax grounded with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground? It is not required with an indoor antenna, but it might help to reject interference.

[corson6]

Thanks for all the replies, just getting back to this. Rabbit73 how big a shield of aluminum foil and cardboard? Where in relation to the attic antenna do I put it to block out WICD 41? I will try to post pics of the outdoor antenna tonight. Thanks!!

[corson6]

Here is a pic of my outside antenna. The WICD 41 tower is BEHIND the tree. So far it's just been a either/or experiment. I don't really know what kind of antenna that is in the attic (or exactly how to shield it with foil and cardboard from WAND 41) Again I would really like to be able to get WCCU DT 27.1 When the interference happens, I see little color squares popping up over the top of the old B&W re-runs I like, so does this mean WICD 41 is trying to come in over the top of WCCU? Thanks again for all the help!

[rabbit73]

Thanks for all the replies, just getting back to this. Rabbit73 how big a shield of aluminum foil and cardboard? Where in relation to the attic antenna do I put it to block out WICD 41? I will try to post pics of the outdoor antenna tonight. Thanks!!

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3099&d=1519074225

For best reception of WCCU, the antenna should be aimed at WCCU. The cardboard covered with aluminum foil should be at least as large as the antenna and fairly close to the antenna to block WICD. The cardboard should be on the WICD side of the antenna.

[rabbit73]

Here is a pic of my outside antenna. The WICD 41 tower is BEHIND the tree. So far it's just been a either/or experiment. I don't really know what kind of antenna that is in the attic (or exactly how to shield it with foil and cardboard from WAND 41) Again I would really like to be able to get WCCU DT 27.1 When the interference happens, I see little color squares popping up over the top of the old B&W re-runs I like, so does this mean WICD 41 is trying to come in over the top of WCCU? Thanks again for all the help!
http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3134&d=1521745379

Thank you for the photo of your outside antenna; it looks like a Winegard HD-1080.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3133&d=1521744903

For best reception of WCCU, the antenna should be aimed at WCCU. The tree is not big enough to block the WICD signal.
When the interference happens, I see little color squares popping up over the top of the old B&W re-runs I like, so does this mean WICD 41 is trying to come in over the top of WCCU?Yes, WICD is so strong it is damaging the WCCU signal which increases the errors in the WCCU signal and results in pixelation.

The Winegard HD-1080 antenna isn't very directionaj. For best reception of WCCU the antenna needs to be more directional so that it will reject the WICD signal. If that isn't enough, a shield would need to be placed between the antenna and the WICD signal. For an outside antenna, the shield can be a wire mesh screen or a building that blocks the WICD signal, but doesn't block the WCCU signal.

The coax must be grounded with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground to reject interference from WICD.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2811&d=1500059263

If even that isn't enough, you will need a custom channel 41 bandstop filter to make the WICD signal weaker. If that works, you will need another custom filter when WICD moves to channel 32:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wicd

Just having one antenna isn't going to get all the channels you want.

[corson6]

OK Thanks for the reply. The antenna is pointed approx 356 degrees magnetic (according to my phone compass) for WCCU, I'm hoping that's correct. I have plenty of guitar boxes approx 6'x5' I could tack this up on the rafters and let it hang down, cover with foil. I will also ground this antenna's coax splitter to the house panel. Will report back with my results, as soon as I get up in the attic!

[corson6]

Update: Without going into the attic yet, I put a new 4-way splitter with a built in ground block on the main coax coming off the attic antenna. Currently I only have the bedroom hooked up to this antenna, but eventually would want to add 3 more locations (all very close) Living room, dining room and another bedroom. I hooked up the ground screw to a #12 ground wire going to the main panel of the house. I saw NO issues on WCCU after doing this. HOWEVER I lost all channels on WAND 17 and WBUI 22. I took off the 4-way splitter and put on a 2-way with same ground and everything came back solid, no issues on any channels. I'm guessing I had a bad splitter OR is splitting 4-ways degrading the signal so much I'm loosing everything towards Decatur?

[rabbit73]

Update: Without going into the attic yet, I put a new 4-way splitter with a built in ground block on the main coax coming off the attic antenna. Currently I only have the bedroom hooked up to this antenna, but eventually would want to add 3 more locations (all very close) Living room, dining room and another bedroom. I hooked up the ground screw to a #12 ground wire going to the main panel of the house. I saw NO issues on WCCU after doing this. HOWEVER I lost all channels on WAND 17 and WBUI 22.Thank you for making the test with the ground connection for the attic antenna. An indoor antenna is not required by the NEC code to be grounded, but in your case it helped because the very strong WICD signal was getting directly into the TV when the coax wasn't grounded.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3135&d=1521845190

is splitting 4-ways degrading the signal so much I'm loosing everything towards Decatur?yes

Your antenna is very directional. When it is aimed at WCCU, it doesn't pick up WAND and WBUI very well because they are in a different direction. That is why it is difficult to pick up everything you want with just one antenna.

You should first work on your antenna system to get all the channels you want for just ONE TV, then you can add a distribution amp if necessary to compensate for the splitting loss.

[corson6]

Rabbit73 I REALLY appreciate all your help! So, looks like I need a second antenna to go with the attic one? Should it go in the attic also? I could use the Winegard that's out in my yard, or there's a open box deal on a C2V at Best Buy for $35. Can I use a splitter in reverse to combine them? Or does it need to be a "combiner"? The UVSJ has been mentioned, but when I google it I'm not finding one. I'm concerned once I start adding TVs I'm going to have trouble, and the consensus seems to be NO AMP because of WICD being so close. This has been challenging but I'm making good progress. Thanks again for all your help!

[rabbit73]

This signal report from rabbitears.info shows the channels you want:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3138&d=1521911408


So, looks like I need a second antenna to go with the attic one?It does look like you will need two antennas to get everything you want. The attic antenna is for UHF and VHF, but since it seems to be doing well for WCCU Fox, I would use it just for Fox.
Should it go in the attic also?Your second antenna, for the signals from the west, can be inside or outside; you will need to do some more experiments.
I could use the Winegard that's out in my yard, or there's a open box deal on a C2V at Best Buy for $35.Neither one of those antennas is suitable for the signals from the west, because they don't have enough gain for WILL PBS on VHF-High channel 9. You need a UHF/VHF combo antenna like the Winegard HD7694P for the channels from the west.
Can I use a splitter in reverse to combine them?A splitter in reverse CAN be used to combine two antennas aimed in different directions, but it doesn't always work; you just have to try it. You would be combining UHF signals from two antennas that would interfere with each other if they don't arrive at the combining point in phase (arrive at the same instant).

If you don't get all the channels after combining that you had when the antennas were separate, then combining with a splitter in reverse doesn't work for your location.
Or does it need to be a "combiner"? The UVSJ has been mentioned, but when I google it I'm not finding one.The UVSJ (UHF-VHF-Separator-Joiner) is a type of combiner; it combines a UHF antenna with a VHF antenna, but not two antennas that both receive UHF signals. In your case, for example, if you only wanted to receive just Fox 26 and PBS 9, you could use a UVSJ to combine a UHF and a VHF antenna that are aimed in different directions.

UVSJs (AKA UHF/VHF Diplexer) are getting hard to find. This is what they look like:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/UHF-VHF-Antenna-Combiners.html

https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/pdf/UHFVHFCombiner_AssemblyInstall.pdf

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2991&d=1512355354

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2735&stc=1&d=1497990764

https://www.radioshack.com/products/radioshack-vhf-uhf-gold-plated-splitter-combiner

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3139&d=1521912445

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2731&d=1497987173

I'm concerned once I start adding TVs I'm going to have trouble, and the consensus seems to be NO AMP because of WICD being so close. This has been challenging but I'm making good progress. Thanks again for all your help!Based on your signal report, the consensus is that a preamp should not be used because WICD is extremely strong. But, the actual WICD signal at your location might be a lot weaker because trees block TV signals (the report doesn't know about the trees), and since you are so close to the WICD tower, the strongest part of the signal beam might be well above your location. Also, since neither antenna will be aimed at WICD, that will make it weaker.

If you had a signal level meter, you could measure the strength of the signals, but you might have a TV with a relative signal strength indicator in the menu. With it, you could find out just how weak a signal can be and still be received.

With the proper antennas, aimed in the correct direction, WCCU and the signals from the west should be strong enough. Once you have each antenna able to pick up the channels you want, then we can talk about the combining options. If the signals are still too weak after splitting, then a distribution amp can be added before the splitter.

[corson6]

Thank you Rabbit73 for all your help. Odd occurrence this morning is all channels were coming in great EXCEPT WCCU from which we had no reception at all. Very strange. Lots of bad weather today, so that could be a factor. Thanks for all the combiner info! I will look at a winegard HD7694P

[rabbit73]

Odd occurrence this morning is all channels were coming in great EXCEPT WCCU from which we had no reception at all. Very strange. Lots of bad weather today, so that could be a factor.Trees block TV signals, especially when they are wet.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html
Scroll down to Trees and UHF if the hdtvprimer.com site is up.

extract from that page:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2636&stc=1&d=1493487319

Because the WCCU antenna is in the attic, you could try the suggestion by ADTech to add the Antennas Direct Juice preamp. That preamp resists overload as he said, but it might overload the TV tuner, in which case you could insert an inexpensive attenuator to prevent that.

You also have a very strong local FM transmitter, WGNJ, also to the north, that might cause overload:

http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/a0c386d76a/Radar-FM.png

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3140&d=1521922105

Since the attic antenna also covers VHF, it will make the WGNJ FM signal even stronger. You could try inserting an FM filter in the coax between the antenna and the preamp input, but for some strange reason Antennas Direct has discontinued their FM filter and they were the only regular source left:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/FM_band_rejection_filter.html

As a substitute, you can insert a UVSJ, UHF and common ports, which will pass only UHF signals and block VHF and FM.

WCCU attic antenna > UVSJ > Juice preamp > coax > power inserter > TV

This is an experiment; I can not offer a guarantee.

[corson6]

Thanks for the link! And there aren't even any leaves on them yet!! :eek:

[rabbit73]

I wish I could give you some easy answers for your reception problem, but you have a difficult location. You will just have to continue with your antenna experiments to see what works, and in so doing you will learn a lot about OTA reception.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3141&d=1521929155

Even if you had your antennas on a tower that was above the trees, you would still have a very strong WICD, channels in different directions, and FM interference to deal with.

A custom channel 41 bandstop filter to make WICD weaker from Tin Lee Electronics would probably cost over $100.
http://www.tinlee.com/MATV-Bandstops.php?active=3

You would have to call them and talk with one of their filter engineers and send your TVFool signal report.

PAR Electronics might be able to make one for less:
http://www.parelectronics.com/single-channel-tv.php

The least expensive filter would be from Jan Jenca in Slovakia. They sell on eBay.
http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/english/main/product/filtre.html

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2402&stc=1&d=1477099490

They also sell combiners, and could make one for Fox on real channel 26 that would allow you to add it to the other channels before splitting.

http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/english/main/product/zlucovace.html

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2517&stc=1&d=1482191285

[corson6]

UPDATE: I purchased the Winegard 7694p as suggested by Rabbit73 (thank you) and put it on the tripod in the back yard. Pointed towards WCCU 360 magnetic I was still getting intermittent pixel distortion. Nothing on WAND or WBUI to the West from Decatur. I went out and swung the antenna towards the West about 260 magnetic and now I've got EVERYTHING...21 channels, and WCCU is so far coming in flawlessly. I know the leaves are not on the trees yet, but somehow all channels were very clear last night and this morning. I'm just hooked up to my bedroom TV with quite a bit more RG6 than I need (it's running to the living room then back, prob about 100' or so) so I assume the next step would be just leave the attic antenna out of it and start splitting to my 3 other TVs? :confused:

[rabbit73]

Thanks for the report; your test results are encouraging. Keep experimenting to see what works.
I assume the next step would be just leave the attic antenna out of it and start splitting to my 3 other TVs?I know you want just one antenna to get everything from the west and north, but it might not be that easy. It's worth a try, though.

[corson6]

Here's my latest update. I turned my attic antenna back towards the south west like I did the new 7694 antenna in the back yard, and bingo! All the channels came in perfect. So now I am splitting the attic antenna for my son's bedroom and the dining room. Then I'm splitting the backyard antenna for my master bedroom and living room. Right now, it's all working perfect. Some nights I'm pulling in other channels Charleston when I do a new scan. Don't know what will happen when the trees leaf out, but right now it's working great. Thanks for all the help here. I just started a new thread on my commercial building in Downtown Champaign.