Request for antenna mounting advice [Archive]

rabbit73

7-May-2016, 10:55 PM

bobsgarage has been waiting for over two months to be able to post on this forum. I have been able to answer some reception questions for him by PM, but I don't have the experience to give him good answers about his antenna mounting problem. He asked me to post his question in the open forum to receive advice from members with the proper experience.

Bob lives in Zion, IL midway between Milwaukee and Chicago and wants to receive signals from both cities but doesn't want to use his rotator except for fine adjustments. He realizes that combining the two antennas doesn't always work and for now is considering separate coax lines. He also understands that it is possible to remove the reflector from a UHF bowtie antenna to make it bi-directional for both cities with some limitations.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d51346a60b4196b

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1996&d=1462659360

His main concern now is safe mounting of his antennas in the land of the "Windy City."

He presently has a HDB91X UHF antenna at the top of the mast aimed at Milwaukee, and a Radio Shack VU-210XR VHF/UHF antenna below it aimed at Chicago, depending on rotator aim.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1997&d=1462659983

He is surrounded by tall trees and is trying to raise his antennas high enough to clear them. He made a video with the camera creatively mounted on a 20 ft pole to take photos at antenna height. I made two stills from the video. The first is the UHF antenna aimed at Milwaukee:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1998&d=1462660449

the second is the RS antenna aimed at Chicago, which has the stronger signals:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1999&d=1462660662

Bob's PM:

Be sure to look at video #3; there is a LOT of antenna movement in the wind. The music is wind chimes.
Good Morning,

Funny, Still not approved for posting on TVFool.

I have some concerns.

This morning we are having high winds. The weather says 22 MPH winds, 53 MPH gusts and since I don't anemometer, I have to believe it.

I feel that before I add any more antennas or raise the mast, I will have to go heavier on the antenna mast pipe or sleeve it.

Here's some more award winning Video. The wind noise is a little irritating, especially the ones from standing on my rooftop. At one time, it felt unsafe, even just with a small video camera. "Now, that was a gust":

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fj1n50vsa800uqp/2016-05-07%20Windy%20day%20antenna%20twist%20002.MTS?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/aemgkbyza19owom/2016-05-07%20Windy%20day%20antenna%20twist%20006.MTS?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8j8ou64hijw2k6q/2016-05-07%20Windy%20day%20antenna%20twist%20007.MTS?dl=0

Also, I could go closer to the top with my guyed thrust bearing and/or add another guyed bearing under.

Is there any effect on reception with guy wires? Mine are 3/16".

I am going to revamp the whole antenna arrangement and make it more wind worthy.

How wind worthy is the CM-4228HD compared to the longer yagi types like the HD7698P ?

All suggestions treated seriously.

Bob

rabbit73

7-May-2016, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by bobsgarage

If you would post that on the forum for me, great, I'd appreciate it.

The question about the two antennas CM4228HD vs HD7698P was more about wind worthiness. Since the CM4228 can receive VHF Hi (either intentionally or not, some say it does), I thought I could choose between the two.

Also, I will raise the guyed bearing ASAP, but want to have my antenna choices by then. I will order Tuesday. Not procrastinating, just collecting info.

Thanks, Bob

The original CM4228 could pick up some VHF signals because it used a VHF/UHF ferrite core balun, but the new 4228HD doesn't do well with VHF-High channels because it uses a printed circuit board balun.

Stereocraig

11-May-2016, 9:43 AM

Hi Bob,
By any chance, do you own that funny car?:)
Your TVF looks to be about 8 miles south of me and w/in 1 or 2 degrees in both directions.

3/16" cable may be a bit overkill, but if you have it readily available, why not?
I always recommend trying to hit a rafter w/ at least one of the tripod feet and drill a pilot because those lag bolts can snap.
Underneath the remaining feet, you could also run lengths of 2X4 to act as load spreaders. Again, use pilot holes.

rabbit73

15-May-2016, 2:56 PM

I have been so busy, here's an update:

I had been looking at the Kitz pre-amps and the KT-200 looks good to me. It seems to be a pain though, at twice the price of a LNA -200 and the need to make a waterproof box. Just one question on amps though.

Budget being what it is, since I already have a Winegard LNA-200 which is fairly low in noise (1dB) would my LNA-200 be OK?

I know the noise not as low as the KT-200's .4 dB, but is it worth the $50 difference in my case?

I received a 91XG and two Stellar Labs 30-2476 VHF antennas. I liked the price on the 30-2476 and since there are no other VHF antennas out there I got 2.

Subnote--I thought one day I may combine the 2 VHF, for fun... What would be involved to make the 3 work (two VHF and one UHF) together? Maybe not worth the trouble?

IN any case, I will most likely stick with my latest plan, keep smaller sized antennas (outlined below) for reduced wind load and rotate them. This is really critical. If I see that the "south" system looks stable up on the mast, I could add to it.

1) I will have another tripod "north array" for Milwaukee and I have the HDB91X that I will join with the 2nd 30-2476 using a UVSJ.

2a) Sleeve my 1 3/8" antenna mast with 1" SCH 40 galvanized water pipe, through bolt it on a few places, raise the guyed thrust bearing to just under the VHF antenna. This should eliminate the twist seen in the videos.

2b) I also have a guy wire collar to support the lower mast if needed.

3) Install the XG91 at the top with the 30-2476 under by just a couple of feet so the unsupported mast is only a few feet over the guyed bearing. ("south array")
BTW, I designed a heavier duty thrust bearing for joining both masts. It is over kill, but I plan to leave it up a long time, I'll send pics later, it is done, just waiting for the cold galvanizing to set up.

For now, I bought a UVSJ and will join the VHF and UHF.

3) I want to join the "north" and "south" antenna at the Winegard CC-7870 combiner. Here's my dilemma. I will have a fairly long run of RG-6 down the "south" "tall mast" probably 40+ feet.

If I join the "north" (probably 20 feet up) array with the "south" will the difference in cable runs mess things up? Will it even work?

My alternative is just to use input 1 & 2 on the TV.

Let me know what you think as time permits. Can't do anything this weekend, high winds and no time.

Thanks, Bob
Hi, Bob:

I thought more people would comment on your problem if I posted it.

Your project is getting so complicated it is making my head spin. I prefer a simple system; more reliable and easier for a non-tech person to use.

I don't think you need a preamp for the stronger signals from the south, but you can try the preamp with the north signals.

Using a combiner doesn't always work; you just have to try it.

rabbit73

15-May-2016, 3:19 PM

I agree, simple is better, and complication has set in.

Most it came about due to:

a) Windload. I didn't know what the windload would be on two 165" Winegards, and the profile on the UHF & VHF appears much smaller to me.

b) Not trusting the HDB91x, side by side, the 91 XG is much sturdier. Putting that HDB high on a mast and having the Balun break again or having a bird bend a director would be aggravating to service.

c) Availability of another tripod and mast system in excellent condition.

Short of contacting a wind load engineer I have come up on a dead-end of mast suggestions, so I will wing it, conservative to a point. I feel the two smaller antennas can be observed on a high wind day and make decisions based on that.

One member, "Stereocraig" did respond to your Antenna mounting advice question, I think more so because he has seen my racecar in front of the shop and is familiar with our locality. He thought 3/16 guy wires were overkill but good and had good suggestions on tripod and predrilling.

I did good by him with predrilling and although I could not hit the rafters, I put 2x12" planks between them and through bolted the 1/2" eye bolts, and 4 guy wires instead of the usual 3.

I did send him a private message with some supplemental info a week ago. No reply yet.

At any rate, my project has evolved and some might think unmanageable (sometimes I do).

Experimenting is cool, but making it all work above the trees does make it unmanageable to an extent, which is why I want to take my time, spend money to make it safe first. I haven't achieved even that yet (videos).

Thus all the questions.

Thanks for taking the questioning load on this one, as you know the forum is broken with no one administrating. I have thought about joining the AVS forums, I think I saw you there also, but just didn't join yet.

I could draft up a plan, for others to understand but I'm not efficient with the drawing programs I have.

If you want to submit a post about what I want to do, and add it to what you did already, feel free. That's probably a good idea, because I am looking at it from the inside and overthinking it, one of my quirks.

Thanks, Bob
I will post it on the forum. Maybe you will receive some more helpful advice from other members.

Posting your problem on AVS would be a good idea; they don't have a shortage of moderators.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/

One problem with AVS is that they loaded the site with so many ads, it takes a long time for a post to show because the script for the ads takes priority over the posts. And it doesn't help that they switched to a new forum software that is less user friendly.

The software for this forum is much more user friendly.

Stereocraig

15-May-2016, 3:51 PM

I answered Bob and apologized for overlooking his PM.

rabbit73

21-May-2016, 12:56 AM

Project one 95% complete...

Well, This one is just about done.

I bought a 91XG and a Stellar Labs 30-2426 and stacked them. I used an RCA PREAMP1 to combine them. Signal strength was over 82% before I raised the mast over the trees.

I am using input one on my Toshiba TV.

I also added my super duty mast thrust bearing as far up as I could get it. My light duty design is there also for test purposes.

I moved the Guyed thrust bearing much higher and sleeved the 1 3/8" Pipe with the 1" SCH40 and thru bolted them to make them work together and cut down on twist. Those modifications should make it much more stout.

Although I went a little higher, I am satisfied with my tree clearance.

Here's the new video, much longer than the other:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0pa3udess4y3ujt/2016-05-19%20Antennas%20Finished%2091XG%20%26%2030%202476%20002.MP4?dl=0

Project # 2 will involve my HDB91X and another 30-2476. Basically all my leftover stuff. It will not be so ambitious. I will use another RCA PREAMP1R ($20 at Amazon) and combine those 2 on my old tripod.

I'll use the Input 2 on my TV. Later, I may try to combine project 1 & 2 signals (so I don't have to keep rotating). If it doesn't work I will just have to switch inputs.

I bought the 2 UVSJ's but didn't use them when I found about the RCA pre amps. I read some decent stuff on these pre-amps so I bought 2. I know they are not Kitz but probably good enough for my situation.

Thanks, Bob

Hi, Bob:

You are making a lot of progress.
I bought a 91XG and a Stellar Labs 30-2426 and stacked them.30-2426? You must mean 30-2476.

The mast sounds much more safe and secure.

Thanks for the new video. It's just like I'm up there with the antennas; very exciting.

I bought the 2 UVSJ's but didn't use them when I found about the RCA pre amps. I read some decent stuff on these pre-amps so I bought 2. I know they are not Kitz but probably good enough for my situation.
The RCA preamps are inexpensive and perform well, but there have been some quality control problems. In particular, there is a problem with the separate/combined switch. When in the separate position, sometimes the switch doesn't make good contact with the VHF antenna. The fix is to switch to the combined position and use the UVSJ.

rabbit73

21-May-2016, 8:07 PM

Thanks for posting that for me. It's a shame there is no one managing the forums.

Yes, Stellar Labs 30-2476 Hi VHF. To be honest, I stumbled upon it after searching for a VHF only antenna. Some reviews said it was well made and I have to agree. Just a foot note, I ran across some tech article, some guy was buying them and experimenting with making one antenna out of two.

Just an update, the signal increased to 88% to Chicago and 84% when rotated to Milwaukee after lifting the antenna mast 5 more feet. VHF was good also.

Truthfully though, I thought the signals would be higher, but it seems to be good enough for now.

Also, I see a lot said about signal strength, but others mention signal quality. My TV doesn't have a quality meter, how can I check that?

I wanted to set up the rotator with a compass, which I tried but I don't know how accurate I was. Although it had some sights on it, I couldn't be too sure, but it appears 355 degrees gets me Milwaukee and 166 degrees gets Chicago well. A few degrees either way seems to be just as good. Pretty happy about that.

Thanks, Bob
Thanks for posting that for me. It's a shame there is no one managing the forums.Yes, the forum is a valuable resource, and is getting harder to use; new members are not being approved.

I am also worried about the site. We really need tvfool reports to be able to help people with reception problems; there is no good substitute.

I wonder if anyone knows why new members are not being accepted?

What happened to GroundUrMast; is he still alive?

What happened to Andy Lee; is he still alive?

I find it hard to believe that Andy would let his "baby" die a slow death from neglect.

Just an update, the signal increased to 88% to Chicago and 84% when rotated to Milwaukee after lifting the antenna mast 5 more feet. VHF was good also.

Truthfully though, I thought the signals would be higher, but it seems to be good enough for now.As long as the reception doesn't have any problems, don't worry about it. It's pretty much either you get it or you don't because of the "Digital Cliff." OTA signals are constantly changing in strength; you need a Fade Margin of about 10 dB to allow for drops in signal strength. You can test to see how much margin to dropout you have by inserting a variable attenuator in the coax line to the tuner and increasing attenuation. The technique is described in the link in my signature.

If you don't have a variable attenuator, you can use a few splitters as attenuators. A 2-way for 3.5 dB, and a 4-way for 7 dB.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1428&d=1439497644

Also, I see a lot said about signal strength, but others mention signal quality. My TV doesn't have a quality meter, how can I check that?That's a good question.

Signal quality, as defined by SNR and uncorrected errors, is at least as important as signal strength, if not more so. It is possible to have a strong signal that is difficult to receive if it has poor quality. One example is when a strong VHF signal has a high noise level from electrical interference that reduces the SNR to below the 15 dB minimum required. This was so bad in Chicago that WBBM CBS had to move from real channel 2 to channel 12. The noise level on VHF-Low is worse than on VHF-High. If the current auction forces broadcasters to use VHF-Low, it will be necessary for them to increase their power for satisfactory reception.

When aiming an antenna, I first adjust for max signal strength. Then I monitor signal quality for final adjustment. Max signal quality isn't always at the same azimuth as max signal strength, usually because of multipath reflections that create a non-uniform field.

My Sony KDL22L5000 has a Diagnostics Screen that gives signal strength, SNR, and uncorrected errors.

Bad signal with picture freeze, SNR below 15 dB, and errors:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1159&d=1433425884

Good signal:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1387&d=1438807179

It is also possible to check signal quality with converter boxes or external tuners that have two signal bars, one for signal quality (the inverse of uncorrected errors), and one for signal strength, like the Apex DT502 or Centronics ZAT502HD:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1385&d=1438807104

You can also use the Diagnostics Screen of the TiVo Roamio that gives signal strength, SNR, and the inverse of uncorrected errors; see attachment 1.

or the SiliconDust HDHR that shows signal strength, signal quality (SNR), and symbol quality (inverse of uncorrected errors):

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=142&d=1299721670

That image is from a thread by GroundUrMast:

An Alternative to Rotators and Antenna Combiners
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=820

You said you had a Zenith converter box. I connected a Zenith and an Apex to a splitter and used both to aim an antenna. My tests seem to indicate that the Zenith signal bar is a combination of signal strength AND signal quality. The Apex, with a separate signal quality bar gives better resolution of changes in signal quality. See attachment 2.

rabbit73

22-May-2016, 6:31 PM

Latitude

As unimportant as this may seem, My neighbor who claims to know much about OTA TV looked at the aiming of my antennas.

He had his own theories about aiming and provided me with the compass. When I synched my CM9521A north and south, he thought it was off by several degrees. I stated it was square with the road, he said that that was a problem because my road Michigan Blvd is not square with longitude and latitude.

Is there a way to use google earth or other mapping program to show lines of latitude or longitude?

At any rate, it appears my best reception for Chicago is really 166 Degrees and Milwaukee 355, just as TV Fool predicts.

One thing I was trying was to focus south on WRME, but even though the WRME coverage map shows me in range, it won't come in at all. I found that interesting..

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80&q=call%3dWRME-LP%26type%3dD

My TV Fool Report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d51349748f48220

Thanks, Bob
Hi, Bob:

I think your neighbor might be a little jealous of your efforts. I hope he is taking into consideration the magnetic declination of 4 degrees. The Google map is oriented so that the top is True North. I added a grid to the satellite view and it looks square to me. The final authority would be a USGS topographic map of your area that might be at your local library.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2011&d=1463941798

I think the argument is unimportant because you are going to aim your antenna for best reception, no matter what azimuth it is. Signals are often skewed and can come in at the "wrong" azimuth.
As long as your rotator can repeat the same direction for you, that's all you need.
One thing I was trying was to focus south on WRME, but even though the WRME coverage map shows me in range, it won't come in at all. I found that interesting..WRME is on real channel 6, which is a VHF-Low channel. What antenna were you using, the MCM 30-2476 or the Radio Shack VU-210XR?

Also, if you are using an FM filter, it might be taking out part of channel 6.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2014&d=1463945009

Stereocraig

22-May-2016, 7:32 PM

I can't receive WRME via TV either, but I get 87.7 FM fairly well, w/ a double folded dipole.

rabbit73

22-May-2016, 10:06 PM

I can't receive WRME via TV either, but I get 87.7 FM fairly well, w/ a double folded dipole.I think that's all you are going to get because it is an FM station on a channel 6 TV frequency.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WRME-LP

http://metv.fm/

http://www.stationindex.com/tv/callsign/WRME-LP

http://www.robertfeder.com/2016/02/16/me-tv-fm-hits-record-high-ratings/

ADTech

23-May-2016, 1:22 PM

The final authority would be a USGS topographic map of your area that might be at your local library.

USGS topo maps are available online at http://viewer.nationalmap.gov/viewer/

The site is slooooowwwwww and some of the tools are a bit obtuse, but what to you expect from a government agency.

rabbit73

23-May-2016, 10:59 PM

Thanks for the research. I feel ignorant, I had forgotten that Ch 6 is VHF low. Until recently, I didn't distinguish between bands, as my RS VU210 XR was for all... Oops!

I was referring to my new set-up the 91XG & 30-2476. No wonder!

Yesterday, I erected array #2. Since I am too meticulous to do anything fast, I didn't finish it. Also, I ran out of guy wire. The new array is 15 feet or so above the roof peak. So, about 32 feet above ground level. My old tripod, masts, RG-6 & HDB91X & 30-2476, joined by an RCA PREAMP1, to be aimed at Milwaukee. Or wherever.. ;)

Lots of pics to come (like a proud papa). I also plan to do a video above the antennas.

I have perfected the thrust bearing systems, I feel. No binding, my engineering seems good.

Just to let you know, I am still unable to see the pics you posted in TV Fool. I forgot to mention that. I get a message:

"bobsgarage, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation."

I know it's a pain, but is it possible to e-mail the attachments from most recent posts?? Funny how I could see them in the PM system, but not the forums

I can follow links as long as they are not part of the attachment system in TV Fool.

Thanks, Bob

Sorry you are having trouble with the attachments in your thread.

Post #1 shows 4 images, can you see all 4?
Post #1 has 4 attachments that are duplicates of the 4 images. I assume you can not see the attachments.

Post #2 has no images or attachments
Post #3 has no images or attachments
Post #4 has no images or attachments

Post #5 has no images showing, but it has 3 attachments of your race car for Stereocraig which I assume you can't see.

Post #6 has no images or attachments

Post #7 has no images showing. It has 2 attachments of stills I made from your long project 1 video. I assume you can't see them.

Post #8 has 5 images showing
1. Noise Margin Diagram
2. Bad Sony signal
3. Good Sony signal
4. Dual signal bars
5. SiliconDust signal monitor
Can you see all 5 images in the post?
Post #8 has 2 attachments; I assume you can't see them.
1. TiVo Diagnostics Screen
2. Zenith signal bar

Post #9 had 2 images showing:
1. Aerial view of your street with grid
2. Spectrum Analyzer screen showing CH6 and FM signals
can you see them?
Post #9 has 4 attachments
1. dupe of image 1
2. another street aerial with grid
3. and another street aerial with grid; one was really enough
4. dupe of image 2

What images do you want that you aren't able to see?

I know it's a pain, but is it possible to e-mail the attachments from most recent posts?? Funny how I could see them in the PM system, but not the forums
You could see them in the PM because I sent them to you a different way, from my image host.

eggman531916

25-May-2016, 3:22 AM

I've read through most of this thread, and I gotta say, nice job bobsgarage. I thought about ordering one of those VHF-Hi antennas also for my mother's house. I'm sorry no one has approved you to post in the forums. I remember it took a long time for me to be able to do so. I hope your set up works well for you.

Tower Guy

25-May-2016, 9:16 PM

In order to see latitude and longitude as well as draw directional lines on a google map I use the web site heywhatsthat.com. Click on new panorama and enter your address. The Lat and long will be displayed below the map.

rabbit73

26-May-2016, 2:52 PM

Posts #1,5,7,8,9 I can't see any attachments. So, if you can e-mail or Dropbox a folder with the attachments, that would be great.

BTW, Array #2 is functional, but some technical issues have to be solved. I combined array 1 & 2 and got real CH 8 (10.1) 12.1, 18.1, are clear, anything higher, no lock or UHF was spotty, quite Pixelated.

I split the signals and attached array#2 to RF Input #2. Horrible. Not getting anything from Milwaukee going into Input 2 on my TV.

Plugged array#1 into Input#2, No stations, looks like a problem with Input 2, Hmmm, when I had Cable TV on that input, it was fine. I'll revisit that later. Maybe I'll try my Zenith or Tivax tuners.

Also, I'm using my old Radio Shack rotator on array#2. I don't have the instructions any more, so I set it up how I remembered. Full sweep both ways, then go to 180 degrees South with controller and then aim antennas due south. I hope that makes sense.

However, the rotator is not making a full sweep, it appears to stop at 345 degrees instead of 360 and the other way stops at about 25 degrees instead of 1 degree. I may have to sight in the antenna to Milwaukee and tighten it down and rotate from there.

Tomorrow.

I see we have some other members joining this thread. That's great! This is how I imagined it working.
Thanks, Bob
You didn't answer my question about what images you can see in the posts. Some of the attachments are duplicates of the images in the posts because I upload them as attachments first and then add a BB code to show them in the post.

I will have to show ALL of the attachments. I wanted to avoid doing that if you can ALREADY see the image in the post.

rabbit73

26-May-2016, 3:24 PM

Post #1 attachments

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/bobsgarageTVFmap_zpsodakjzqt.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/bobsgarageTVFmap_zpsodakjzqt.jpg.html)

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/BobTVF2Ants_1_zps3qdsnyxm.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/BobTVF2Ants_1_zps3qdsnyxm.jpg.html)

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/bobsgarageTVF91atMil_1_zpscv2o1oin.jpg

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/bobsgarageTVFRSatChicago_1_zpsgmr62rr0.jpg

to be continued as time permits.

Stereocraig

26-May-2016, 4:24 PM

Bob,
However you orient it, you may want to set it so you can access that 355 heading from the eastern half, VS going CW all the way around. There are just more signals on the eastern side, than you could expect to receive from the western side.

You should rotate the control full CCW until it stops and then full CW, until it stops.If nothing is broken, it should now be in sync.
Don't expect a full 360 from any rotor, because there is a steel limiting pin on the main shaft.

rabbit73

26-May-2016, 5:15 PM

Post #5 attachments

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/Bobs%20Garage%20car3%20_zpsxcnzdvws.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/Bobs%20Garage%20car3%20_zpsxcnzdvws.jpg.html)

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/Bobs%20Garage%20car4_zpsuxfqafxp.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/Bobs%20Garage%20car4_zpsuxfqafxp.jpg.html)

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/Bobs%20Garage%20car5_zpsisjyprh4.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/Bobs%20Garage%20car5_zpsisjyprh4.jpg.html)

to be continued as time permits

rabbit73

26-May-2016, 5:32 PM

Post #7 attachments

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/bobsgarageTVFant1_1_zpsyhkm3prx.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/bobsgarageTVFant1_1_zpsyhkm3prx.jpg.html)

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/bobsgarageTVFant2_1_zps941fdxnm.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/bobsgarageTVFant2_1_zps941fdxnm.jpg.html)

to be continued as time permits

rabbit73

26-May-2016, 6:47 PM

Post #8 attachments

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/TiVoDiagA-B_zpswk8paz3s.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/TiVoDiagA-B_zpswk8paz3s.jpg.html)

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/Zenith%20SigMon_2_zpshfo2aw9a.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/Zenith%20SigMon_2_zpshfo2aw9a.jpg.html)

to be continued as time permits

rabbit73

26-May-2016, 7:14 PM

Post #9 attachments

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/bobsgarageMichAveGrid_zpsoidljhtd.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/bobsgarageMichAveGrid_zpsoidljhtd.jpg.html)

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/bobsgarageMichAveGrid2_zpsbto66jlq.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/bobsgarageMichAveGrid2_zpsbto66jlq.jpg.html)

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/bobsgarageMichAveGrid3_zpsgv5htpcl.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/bobsgarageMichAveGrid3_zpsgv5htpcl.jpg.html)

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/TV%20CH6_zps6et6ds90.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/TV%20CH6_zps6et6ds90.jpg.html)

Is that it?

rabbit73

26-May-2016, 7:31 PM

BTW, Array #2 is functional, but some technical issues have to be solved. I combined array 1 & 2 and got real CH 8 (10.1) 12.1, 18.1, are clear, anything higher, no lock or UHF was spotty, quite Pixelated.

I split the signals and attached array#2 to RF Input #2. Horrible. Not getting anything from Milwaukee going into Input 2 on my TV.

Plugged array#1 into Input#2, No stations, looks like a problem with Input 2, Hmmm, when I had Cable TV on that input, it was fine. I'll revisit that later. Maybe I'll try my Zenith or Tivax tuners.Something is not right. What model is your (Toshiba?) TV?

Is input #2 only for cable and not antenna?

rabbit73

26-May-2016, 8:56 PM

I'm sorry I did not specify but I cannot look at any photos whatsoever.

The pics you put up we're very good thank you.

I appreciate what you've done so far, and to update you from my last private message, I am making a list of what channels I can get and how strong the signal appears. I spent quite a lot of time checking signal station by station as I tweaked the rotator on the signal meter on my Toshiba projection TV.

The Chicago stations were consistently above 88% and some stations are at 90%. Interestingly, the station that were strongest were the Spanish speaking stations like Telemundo and Univision.

Milwaukee stations work mostly there above 75% and as high as 86%. There were some stations of lower power and I couldn't get a lock on them even to find out what they were. My TV doesn't give you an actual Channel count when it's done scanning. It's simply just goes back to the previous menu item. I didn't bother counting them.

Also, I was able to hook up my Zenith tuner. I first used it last night comma and I scanned with both antennas combined and I believe I got somewhere upwards of 90 channels or sub channels. It was raining at the time. Milwaukee VHF real Channel 8 (10.1 virtual) was coming and going also. In the morning it was probably the strongest channel I had from Milwaukee.

Yesterday morning the skies were clear and it seemed that I had more TV stations at a stronger strength than I did last night as the rain clouds came in. I know atmospheric conditions can cause issues so I don't feel like it was a fair comparison. Tonight I will rescan the TV without the tuner and then I will install the tuner and re-scan like that. I was wondering if I could put a splitter at the antenna signal and have one signal go directly to the TV and one signal go directly to the tuner. I feel like the quality of picture with the Zenith tuner is not as good as when I'm looking at the TV with the antenna plugged in directly. I also have my Tivax tuner I have not used on this TV.

Alternatively, I have a Radio Shack distribution amp with 4 outputs I will probably end up using once I feel everything is working good with one TV. What I was contemplating was running the antenna leads directly into the distribution amp.When everything is working well I will spread the signal around the house and begin the process of "cutting the cable".

Also I want to thank you and the others who have begun to contribute in this thread. It's a good feeling.

Thanks, Bob
Oh, OK. Does that mean you can't see any photos at all in posts 1-9?

Can you see the photos in posts 17-22?

This is turning out to be harder than I thought it would be. It looks like you are not allowed to see any attachments or any images derived from attachments.

rabbit73

27-May-2016, 12:11 AM

Okay I can see everything I mean all pictures since post number 17, so whatever you have done keep doing it.I'm only using my image host and not using any images from my list of attachments for this forum.

more post #8 images

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/NoiseMargin.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/NoiseMargin.jpg.html)

Bad signal:

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/IMG_0226_1.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/IMG_0226_1.jpg.html)

Good signal:

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/IMG_0222_1.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/IMG_0222_1.jpg.html)

Dual signal bars:

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/DualSigBars_zpsoiijdipf.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/DualSigBars_zpsoiijdipf.jpg.html)

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/HDHRSigMonitor_zpsac8tl29l.png (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/HDHRSigMonitor_zpsac8tl29l.png.html)

rabbit73

27-May-2016, 12:26 AM

I will try to get the Toshiba model number for you when I get home. It is a projection TV bought in around 2001 or two I think.

I can tell you antenna input 1 and input 2 both have an option to go with antenna or cable. Unfortunately the Zenith tuner box that has only RF output and RCA red white and yellow.

Thanks Bob

Also, I was able to hook up my Zenith tuner. I first used it last night comma and I scanned with both antennas combined and I believe I got somewhere upwards of 90 channels or sub channels. It was raining at the time. Milwaukee VHF real Channel 8 (10.1 virtual) was coming and going also. In the morning it was probably the strongest channel I had from Milwaukee.Very good, Bob.

How did you connect the Zenith to the TV?

rabbit73

27-May-2016, 8:03 PM

The Toshiba TV is a Theater Wide HD Model # 57H93 Chassis# TAC0361 manufactured August 2003.

I had thought I bought it earlier.

Oh yeah, Using Coax for all connections, either Zenith of rooftop antennas.

Anyhow, I split the combined North/South signal so I can switch back and forth between both between input 1 & 2 on the TV. One splitter output goes to the Zenith tuner and one goes directly to the TV.

It appears that after rescanning the Zenith and the TV, both inputs are working with the Zenith. I put the Zenith on Input2 and the TV antenna on Input 1.

Here is what I found. The definition is noticeably better with the TV tuner. The Zenith DTT-901 doesn't have the quality picture of the TV. Details appear more fuzzy using the Zenith tuner. I see a difference as I switch between inputs.

I was hoping the Zenith would work better as it is a more recent device, but I guess I don't have to have it. I decided to switch the Zenith over to input 1 on the TV and the picture quality appeared the same as on input 2.

Here's the funny part. Just like I mentioned before, input 2 did not respond to the combined (N-S) antenna signals, just a whitish static on the screen.
Input configuration shows both inputs as "antenna". The other choice is, of course "cable".

So, I have no idea why input 2 works great with the Zenith tuner and doesn't work with the antenna directly.

At any rate, I may be ready to distribute the signal to different rooms in the house.

I have a distribution amp, a Radio Shack "Bi-Directional Cable Amplifier" #15-1197. It has four outputs. Should I just use it now?, or use a one in-four out splitter and risk the higher loss factor?

The longest cable to the master bedroom will be approx. 35 feet. To the kids room about the same. Another to the Toshiba Projection screen maybe ten feet, the same for the kitchen TV. .

G'night, Bob
Thanks for the report.
Here is what I found. The definition is noticeably better with the TV tuner. The Zenith DTT-901 doesn't have the quality picture of the TV. Details appear more fuzzy using the Zenith tuner. I see a difference as I switch between inputs.That is normal. The output of the Zenith is SD not HD. The difference is easy to see with a large screen. The Zenith also has composite output, but it doesn't have component output for better quality. Your TV will accept either. You would need a set top box with HD output via component cables.
I have a distribution amp, a Radio Shack "Bi-Directional Cable Amplifier" #15-1197. Should I just use it now?, or use a one in-four out splitter and risk the higher loss factor? Try it with a passive (non-amplified) splitter first and let your signal strength readings be your guide. With digital, you either get it or you don't. You will soon find out how weak the signal can be and still have satisfactory reception.

If you need a newer distribution amp, try the Channel Master 3414.

I was wondering if I could put a splitter at the antenna signal and have one signal go directly to the TV and one signal go directly to the (Zenith) tuner.You could do that, but why would you want to? The only reason to use a separate tuner is if combining the two antenna systems doesn't work and you lose channels.

rabbit73

27-May-2016, 10:34 PM

Here's those pics I promised:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9lgs2wkd8pu723x/AABq-TEImhG8QmhgqPGBJwWia?dl=0

Bob
Thanks for the pics Bob.

The TB-105 bearing is no longer available, so Bob has spent a lot of time perfecting his bearings.

His photo #7 of 19 edited to show close up of both antenna systems. Very impressive, Bob:

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/bobsgarageTVFant3cu_zpsdkgpzqfu.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/bobsgarageTVFant3cu_zpsdkgpzqfu.jpg.html)

rabbit73

3-Jun-2016, 1:49 PM

An update for you. Well, I will claim success. Depending on which TV I check, most Full power signals from Milwaukee and Chicago are over 95%. MY Bedroom 36" Toshiba Regza seems to have the best picture and the highest signal %. I have seen many Chicago stations peak at 99% With SNR in the 30's. Milwaukee is close on most channels.

I have Dropbox attachments for you from my Kitchen Toshiba 19" (not a Regza as I previously thought). Later I will take pics from my 36" as it seems to have a more accurate channel ID in the signal meter.

As seen in my pics, the signal meter doesn't always get the virtual channel right.

A good example is real channel 44. After a scan, if the TV tuner is on 7.1 the signal meter correct displays virtual channel 7.1 on real channel 44.

Change the TV tuner to any other channel. For example, using the remote to check real channel 45, it correctly displays virtual channel 44.1. Switching back to real channel 44, the signal meter now displays virtual channel 44.1 also.

I re-checked it this morning, If the TV is already on 7.1 at the time the signal meter is checked, it will show displays virtual channel 7.1 on real channel 44. If TV is not on 7.1 on real channel 44, the signal meter now displays virtual channel 44.1.

I noticed also, that the signal strength changes. I have some pics of that in the Dropbox folders. This is repeatable.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/avqb5kwiz8ri8db/2016-05-28%20Toshiba%2019%20Signal%20Meter.zip?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gjv0tkxyqwz9kin/2016-05-31%20Toshiba%2019%20Signal%20Meter.zip?dl=0

I did do a double re-scan more than once.

For the record my 36" Regza does not do that, at least with real channels 44 & 45. I am still researching the other channels, but it appears to be an issue with the TV.

Also the 36" TV pulls in 93 channels compared with the 19" which pulls in 77-80 channels. I think both TVs get more channels at night.

All in all, whether a TV issue or not, the problem seems to be with the signal meter as the tuner seems to pull the right channels when selected.

My older big projection TV has a primitive signal meter and does not show SNR, only % of strength.

Since the antennas are up, I feel that they are good, including the RCA PREAMP1's in both arrays. I only say that because I get strong VHF and UHF from Chicago and Milwaukee.

I'll keep you updated. So far I still excited about what I have and what it does and owe part of it to you.

Thanks, Bob
Thanks for the update..

It looks like you have reached your goal, Bob; well done!

Glad that we were able to help you.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d51346a60b4196b

Stereocraig

3-Jun-2016, 3:35 PM

Good job, Bob.
And you haven't even sniffed for Michigan, or Indiana, yet.:)

rabbit73

6-Jun-2016, 12:38 AM

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=9234

In the link above I see that somebody is at least correcting some of the database stuff, so that means somebody must still be working there at TV fool. Do you know who to contact there.

I can't believe I went through a whole antenna question and answer session got it installed and working without even being a member. Is it possible to contact somebody through the database update heart to find out why members aren't getting approved?

Thanks, Bob
Do you know who to contact there.No, I'm just another member.
I can't believe I went through a whole antenna question and answer session got it installed and working without even being a member.As far as I'm concerned, you are a member because you have made a useful contribution to the forum.
Is it possible to contact somebody through the database update heart to find out why members aren't getting approved?I wouldn't know how to do that. I already posted a thread asking that question; it didn't work.

What's going on at tvfool?
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=15920

rabbit73

7-Jun-2016, 2:26 PM

Wind affects on antenna array & mast

It was windy yesterday, but hardly as strong as the wind in the videos sent to you a month ago. Still, the amount of movement was negligible:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pphuw3nlyainf4c/00091%20one%20gust.MTS?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4jxi2khfytnxurp/00095%20Chimes%20active.MTS?dl=0

Next time we get heavier winds, I'll get some video again. For now, this was one of the reasons for the thread you made for me.

About the database forum. Could you please post a question there about membership approval? At least someone will read it. Maybe different administrators can contact the ones who are responsible for approval?

Thanks, Bob

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/bobsgarageTVFant5_zps25jpfugr.jpg (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/rabbit73_photos/media/bobsgarageTVFant5_zps25jpfugr.jpg.html)

Thanks for the report, Bob.

The masts look much more stable now in a strong wind.
Could you please post a question there about membership approval?I'll try, but I doubt that it will do much good.

bobsgarage

13-Oct-2016, 5:00 PM

Good job, Bob.
And you haven't even sniffed for Michigan, or Indiana, yet.:)

Hi Craig, now that I'm a member after a few months of waiting, I wanted to respond to your "sniffing" suggestion.

I have sniffed to across the lake to Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, etc, no good. I rotated the tallest antenna (91XG & 30-2476) East and slowly rotated from SE to NE and had no such luck. I even rotated the the lower mast east (HDB91X & 30-2476) with no luck. Finally I combined both masts, which I didn't expect any results from, but hey, it didn't hurt anything. NO luck.

I have an Oak tree of my own and others in the near proximity exactly in the whole 3 to 160 degree ie. almost due north to due south range, so it will have to wait until after autumn, in the ice cold of winter.

Even then, in winter most Oaks retain some browned off leaf clumps on selected branches through out the winter and finally drop them in spring when the buds break. Still it should be a chance to "Sniff" :)

Of Indiana stations I get WYIN 56.1 76 miles out but it is in that narrow 164 degree direction as my Chicago stations. The antennas are shooting the gap between two trees. I am happy to get WYIN though, I like PBS and programming is a little different than the other PBS stations.

How about you? What luck have you had?

Stereocraig

13-Oct-2016, 7:23 PM

Well Bob, not much has changed w/ my antennas.
Spent most of the summer preparing for my daughter's wedding and maintenance on my parent's farm.

I occasionally receive Kalamazoo and Grand Rapids, w/ an an occasional Green Bay. WYIN and WNDU, not so much.
I'll probably give up on Madison and Rockford for the time being.

The 91XG is probably the best I'll be able to DX with, until I can complete my mesh dish project and trim back some Maple branches.
I've made the driven element and shield for it and now need to fab a mounting bracket w/ swivel and maybe tilt.

bobsgarage

25-Feb-2019, 3:58 AM

Well, Lets try this again, took too long and got logged off!

Here's the update since 2016, I have been using both antenna arrays.

Reception has been good. Rotators are seized, with little hope of any help from Channel Master.

The "Milwaukee array" is not so tall about 15 feet from the roof peak.

The Chicago array is 35 Feet above the roof peak with a 10' tripod for stability at the base and guy wires with eyelet hooks into roof rafters reinforcements. Very sturdy.

The Chicago array is heavy. The mast is 1 3/8" SS 20 with waterpipe slid inside. Double wall if you will. On top are a Antenna Direct XG 91 and a Stellar Labs 30-2476.

Because of the height, I used 3/16 guy wires and a special custom bearing I designed. Today the wind was brutal. The leeward side 1/4" galvanized guy wires went slack, and the windward side held up well. Maybe I need to get all 4 guy wires tightened up.

Here is the Dropbox link for the videos I shot today during the 50+MPH winds. We had a gale warning today, 60MPH winds at the max.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xaxcunsq6zxlhdd/AACxsF0IsWBclaW-QWGtkrsYa?dl=0

My biggest complaint is that I want to combine both arrays easily. Using two boxes sucks and since I already use two boxes in my home theater, it's fine for me but a pain for all the other TV's in the house. I would like to have some kind of box that blocks unwanted weak signals from each direction. Maybe like a Jointenna. I have been told that there are companies that make them.

Any suggestions to any of the concerns I have?
Especially the two antennas into one input solution.

Finding a economical HD rotator would be nice too.

Thanks, Bob

P.S. Thanks to Rabbit73 for getting this post rolling. IN fact his help got mer through the whole project before I was approved to join TV Fool.

rabbit73

25-Feb-2019, 3:27 PM

Well, Lets try this again, took too long and got logged off!

Here's the update since 2016, I have been using both antenna arrays.Hello again, Bob; good to hear from you.

A lot of my images aren't showing in this thread because my former image host, photobucket, refused to show them in posts unless I started paying them; I switched to another image host, imgur. Here are two photos of your antenna system that others might like to see:

https://i.imgur.com/iUAzjxe.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/J28IV3Y.jpg

Reception has been good. Rotators are seized, with little hope of any help from Channel Master.The CM rotators don't hold up very long; you would have to go to a ham rotator like the Yaesu G-450A Medium-Duty Rotator Systems G-450A, which would be more reliable but more expensive.
https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/ysu-g-450a

Here is the Dropbox link for the videos I shot today during the 50+MPH winds. We had a gale warning today, 60MPH winds at the max.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xaxcunsq6zxlhdd/AACxsF0IsWBclaW-QWGtkrsYa?dl=0I see some still images, but I don't see a video.

My biggest complaint is that I want to combine both arrays easily. Using two boxes sucks and since I already use two boxes in my home theater, it's fine for me but a pain for all the other TV's in the house. I would like to have some kind of box that blocks unwanted weak signals from each direction. Maybe like a Jointenna. I have been told that there are companies that make them.Right from the start I tried to encourage you to stick with just one direction like Chicago to keep it simple, but when I saw that you were determined to have reception from two directions, I tried to help you with that.

There are other ways of combining from two directions, but none of them are easy. I can list them if you want to see them.
P.S. Thanks to Rabbit73 for getting this post rolling. IN fact his help got mer through the whole project before I was approved to join TV Fool.Thank you for your kind words; I was glad to be of some help

bobsgarage

26-Feb-2019, 1:01 AM

Hey Rabbit,

Yes. You warned me! And you are right, and IMHO the system is overcomplicated.

But that's what I wanted!

A while back, some one offered to build me a "box" , he was out of Poland I think. He said it could allow only the channels I wanted from either direction, but I got busy and blew it off.

What ways do you know to combine and get the signals in good from both directions?

Also, for some reason the videos did not attach to the Dropbox link, I re-added them check it again when you can. Either link works, this is for your convenience:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xaxcunsq6zxlhdd/AACxsF0IsWBclaW-QWGtkrsYa?dl=0

Here's the infamous "Above the antennas" video with the old RS VU210XR:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qhrya79180okacu/2016-4-24%20above%20the%20antennas.mp4?dl=0

Better Video (2016) of the new array with the 91XG and the 30-2476:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4jvdkuw1wra13id/2016-05-19%20Antennas%20Finished%2091XG%20%26%2030%202476%20002.MP4?dl=0

Tower Guy

26-Feb-2019, 2:36 PM

The European filter is a good choice. Yet be aware that many stations in Chicago and Milwaukee will be changing channels in October. I’d wait to do a custom filter.

bobsgarage

26-Feb-2019, 5:05 PM

The European filter is a good choice. Yet be aware that many stations in Chicago and Milwaukee will be changing channels in October. I’d wait to do a custom filter.
Thanks Tower guy!

Yeah, heard that too. That's one of the reasons I didn't take it any further.

Any info on those European filters?

rabbit73

26-Feb-2019, 6:02 PM

The European filters come from Jan Jenca in Slovakia.
http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/english/main/product/filtre.html

rabbit73

26-Feb-2019, 6:58 PM

What ways do you know to combine and get the signals in good from both directions?

The best method for you would depend upon how many TVs you have and how many channels you want from both directions (and how much money you are willing to spend). If you want a lot of channels from both directions all combined in one coax, you would have the equivalent of a CATV or cable system. This would involve single channel amplifiers, modulators, and a combiner; very expensive.

Using the custom filters approach has limitations. If you want a lot of channels, you would need many custom filters, and they would have an insertion loss that would affect the weaker channels. Also, there are limitations with adjacent channels. A notch filter for a channel will affect the adjacent channels. Don't forget, many TVs can edit out a channel you don't want by going into the channel menu.

If you want just a few channels from one direction to add to the coax from the main direction, you could add some tuners and modulators to insert them in unused UHF channels. They would be analog and not HD digital, but analog can look better than compressed 480i digital.

https://i.imgur.com/ly36iue.jpg

Analog can look better than this compressed 480i digital:

http://i.imgur.com/MMKlm90.jpg

The method I favor for your situation would be to run two coax lines to each TV, one for each antenna system. At each TV there would be an A/B switch to select which antenna is desired. If the TVs are not able to add a channel after scan, it would be necessary to rescan after changing direction. To avoid that, you can connect the main antenna to the TV antenna input and connect the other antenna to a separate tuner with its output connected to the TV aux input. With HDMI it could be HD.

Nascarken

26-Feb-2019, 11:09 PM

Well thank you rabbit and the channel master rotors are junk!!
And so I experienced the same problem with the RCA.Rotor
That is why yes $300dollars for a Rotor is crazy to spend.
But you do not have that problem when installing a good quality rotor.
And with the 91xg,you need a Rotor to get IT'S full use.
And the best ANTENNA for the uhf.Well good luck and be safe on the roof and look out for power lines when installing an Tv ANTENNA.

Nascarken

26-Feb-2019, 11:28 PM

Yes u might want too see if the low power vhf channels
Or maybe like the fcc suggests use a combination ANTENNA
That does Low&hi,vhf/uhf,with a good quality rotor
That will last year after year after year.
And if you use a channel master amp it does the same thing
And you are not loosing db,insert loss,and it's fm filter.

bobsgarage

11-Mar-2019, 12:56 AM

The best method for you would depend upon how many TVs you have and how many channels you want from both directions (and how much money you are willing to spend). If you want a lot of channels from both directions all combined in one coax, you would have the equivalent of a CATV or cable system. This would involve single channel amplifiers, modulators, and a combiner; very expensive.

Using the custom filters approach has limitations. If you want a lot of channels, you would need many custom filters, and they would have an insertion loss that would affect the weaker channels. Also, there are limitations with adjacent channels. A notch filter for a channel will affect the adjacent channels. Don't forget, many TVs can edit out a channel you don't want by going into the channel menu.

If you want just a few channels from one direction to add to the coax from the main direction, you could add some tuners and modulators to insert them in unused UHF channels. They would be analog and not HD digital, but analog can look better than compressed 480i digital.

Analog can look better than this compressed 480i digital:

The method I favor for your situation would be to run two coax lines to each TV, one for each antenna system. At each TV there would be an A/B switch to select which antenna is desired. If the TVs are not able to add a channel after scan, it would be necessary to rescan after changing direction. To avoid that, you can connect the main antenna to the TV antenna input and connect the other antenna to a separate tuner with its output connected to the TV aux input. With HDMI it could be HD.

Rabbit,

Thanks for the advice. It looks like my XG91 got damaged this winter. The lower rear reflector is just hanging by what looks like the coax, surprisingly, the reception is still good. Now, I have to get back up the mast some how and service the XG-91.

I have to say, that I'm not impressed with the XG91 durability. My HDB91X seems more solid, at least in the reflector area. The XG91 reflector is like garden fence. And not very well fastened either.

I like your idea of the two coax cable to each TV, not that hard to do.

But, as always, I have rethought the situation. Buying an expensive "box" to block certain signals would be a great idea, but you say expensive. How expensive?

The other idea I have is …

Is there still such a thing as a "omni directional" antenna?

I drive around different towns doing business and I always look up at the rooftops. I still see those antennas.

But, I also see a lot of 8 bays these days. Some masts have two 8 Bays usually one pointing north and one south.

But what's the deal with removing the reflectors?

The reason I ask is that I don't see a lot of co-channels on my TV Fool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d90382eb6d5dbe3

Well, there are a few.

Just rethinking the whole plan since I have to get up and fix the array.

Would it just be easier to use something that is more omni directional?

Thanks, Bob

rabbit73

11-Mar-2019, 1:52 AM

I like your idea of the two coax cable to each TV, not that hard to do.It's my favorite; inexpensive, simple, and reliable.
But, as always, I have rethought the situation. Buying an expensive "box" to block certain signals would be a great idea, but you say expensive. How expensive?Thousands of $$$$$ for single channel amplifiers, modulators, balancing attenuators, and a combiner.

If there was an easy inexpensive way to do it, CATV systems wouldn't have to do this:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1420&d=1439422441
Is there still such a thing as a "omni directional" antenna?Yes, an Omni receives poorly in all directions. It works OK at some locations.
I drive around different towns doing business and I always look up at the rooftops. I still see those antennas.Yeah, I'm thinking of the UFO type.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=omnidirectional+TV+antenna

But, I also see a lot of 8 bays these days. Some masts have two 8 Bays usually one pointing north and one south.

But what's the deal with removing the reflectors?Removing the reflector from an 8-bay or 4-bay, makes it bi-directional to receive from the front and rear; just what you might need.

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3284&d=1552311565

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1996&d=1462659360

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3292&d=1552476413

Would it just be easier to use something that is more omni directional?Easier? Yes. Effective? Probably not.

Why don't you put up an Omni to satisfy your curiosity.

Nascarken

11-Mar-2019, 8:04 PM

Well you should not have too remove any thing off an ANTENNA when you spend that much money on it $100dollars you should probably tack a look at the new master antenna
With its vhf/uhf and go with the channel master 7778amp check it out RABBIT!!

ADTech

11-Mar-2019, 10:52 PM

The XG91 reflector is like garden fence. And not very well fastened either.
I can tell you that, in my more than ten years with Antennas Direct, I've had to replace the reflectors on exactly on 91XG. Ironically, it was my own antenna installed on a home that I sold a couple of years ago. A tall, spindly oak tree about 30' from the house came over and slapped the tail end of the antenna during a windstorm.

BTW, your location per the chart, is ideal for one of our C4MAX antennas. Bi-directional right out of the box. I've been recommended reflector-less C2V and C4V antennas for your area along the state line for a long time with very good results.

But, I also see a lot of 8 bays these days. Some masts have two 8 Bays usually one pointing north and one south.

But what's the deal with removing the reflectors? Removing the reflectors eliminates about 3 dB of insertion loss from using a splitter as a combiner plus the problems with phase cancellation is eliminated. The potential drawback is an increased susceptibility to multipath.

rickbb

12-Mar-2019, 3:00 PM

Nascarken

12-Mar-2019, 3:07 PM

rabbit73

13-Mar-2019, 1:56 PM

Solid Signal's claim of a 60 degree beamwidth for the HDB91X is misleading. They are not using the conventional method of calculating beamwidth. Some people will fall for it.
Technical Specifications
Beam width approximately 60° wide (out of 360°)

https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hdb91x

https://www.xtremesignal.com/portfolio-item/hdb91x/

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3298&d=1552497565

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3294&d=1552486831

Note that Winegard also uses the -3 dB half-power points to calculate the beamwidths of the 8200U:

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3295&d=1552487120

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3297&d=1552496752

You can have an antenna with more gain and narrower beamwidth or an antenna with wider beamwidth and less gain, but you can't have an antenna with more gain and wider beamwidth; the two are mutually exclusive.

Additional gain comes from making the antenna more directional with a narrower beamwidth, which ignores other directions like a searchlight or spotlight. There is no free lunch.

bobsgarage

15-Mar-2019, 4:32 AM

I can tell you that, in my more than ten years with Antennas Direct, I've had to replace the reflectors on exactly on 91XG. Ironically, it was my own antenna installed on a home that I sold a couple of years ago. A tall, spindly oak tree about 30' from the house came over and slapped the tail end of the antenna during a windstorm.

BTW, your location per the chart, is ideal for one of our C4MAX antennas. Bi-directional right out of the box. I've been recommended reflector-less C2V and C4V antennas for your area along the state line for a long time with very good results.

Removing the reflectors eliminates about 3 dB of insertion loss from using a splitter as a combiner plus the problems with phase cancellation is eliminated. The potential drawback is an increased susceptibility to multipath.

AD Tech, thanks for the great advice.

I haven't had the chance to see how bad the damage is to my XG91, I just see the reflector hanging, I guess by the coax? So far good reception.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3299&stc=1&d=1552623615

I'll look into the C4MAX. They look like the windload is low.

Funny, I was driving through Kenosha WI, I saw this array:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3300&stc=1&d=1552625490

I know it's not the MAX, but someone got crafty. Actually, I've seen a few of these array near the state line as you say.

And, I thought I saw two C4MAX's combined, somewhere. Easily distinguished by no reflectors, correct?

I always thought they were novelty antennas and overlooked them.

bobsgarage

15-Mar-2019, 5:04 AM

It's my favorite; inexpensive, simple, and reliable.
Thousands of $$$$$ for single channel amplifiers, modulators, balancing attenuators, and a combiner.

If there was an easy inexpensive way to do it, CATV systems wouldn't have to do this:

Yes, an Omni receives poorly in all directions. It works OK at some locations.
Yeah, I'm thinking of the UFO type.

Removing the reflector from an 8-bay or 4-bay, makes it bi-directional to receive from the front and rear; just what you might need.

Easier? Yes. Effective? Probably not.

Why don't you put up an Omni to satisfy your curiosity.

Rabbit,

I have to admit, I did mean Bi-directional, not Omni. I don't know why IO asked about that, the only time I see them is on RV's actually. My bad.

I was thinking Bi-directional.

rabbit73

15-Mar-2019, 11:47 AM

Rabbit,

I have to admit, I did mean Bi-directional, not Omni. I don't know why IO asked about that, the only time I see them is on RV's actually. My bad.

I was thinking Bi-directional.Oh, OK; good. Thanks for the clarification, Bob.

Thanks for the new photos.

Please let us know if you make any improvements.

There is one thing I don't like about the Solid Signal Xtreme Signal HDB91X. The coax connector on the balun doesn't make good contact with the center conductor of the coax; it doesn't grasp the wire firmly. I noticed that when I was making resistance measurements of the driven element. I consider that a design defect. I inserted a short length of 18 gauge wire in the connector to make the measurement, which is the same gauge as the center conductor of RG6 coax.

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3305&d=1552676755

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3306&d=1552676901

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3307&d=1552677078

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3304&d=1552657281

Nascarken

15-Mar-2019, 5:49 PM

Well you see that is why I went with the HDB91 instead of the antenna Direct 91st
And the HDB91 has the same performance as the 91st and I like your set up
But know you need too tack it down and see what happen to it Don t for get IT'S
life time w tee.And if you get 2antennas together on top it will look a lot better than just
One antenna with your hi band vhf ANTENNA

rabbit73

15-Mar-2019, 6:37 PM

Well you see that is why I went with the HDB91 instead of the antenna Direct 91st
There is one thing I don't like about the HDB91 (Solid Signal Xtreme Signal HDB91X). The coax connector on the balun doesn't make good contact with the center conductor of the coax; it doesn't grasp the wire firmly.

ADTech

15-Mar-2019, 11:58 PM

bobsgarage

16-Mar-2019, 9:30 PM

Oh, OK; good. Thanks for the clarification, Bob.

Thanks for the new photos.

Please let us know if you make any improvements.

There is one thing I don't like about the Solid Signal Xtreme Signal HDB91X. The coax connector on the balun doesn't make good contact with the center conductor of the coax; it doesn't grasp the wire firmly. I noticed that when I was making resistance measurements of the driven element. I consider that a design defect. I inserted a short length of 18 gauge wire in the connector to make the measurement, which is the same gauge as the center conductor of RG6 coax.

Hi Rabbit,

Yes, I am listening to the whole thread here.

The 8 Bay idea has me very interested. Your pattern tells me that it could be the answer.

A while back, I saw a 4228 double stacked in this test, can't find it right now,.

AD Tech suggested the C4MAX. Have you done any testing with the C4MAX?

One advantage would be the lesser windload, at least that's what it appears to a layman like myself :)

Also, I guess my XG91 is a lifetime warranty, that's good. I may warranty it and save it for other uses.

The balun issue is interesting to me. in the automotive industry, that causes major issues. Also known as pin fit.

Nascarken

17-Mar-2019, 7:13 PM

Well the warranty is good On the antenna Direct 91xg.
I just dount like to return to some one that I have installed
An ANTENNA that has been up for a year later
And the public mad about an ANTENNA falling apart that I suggested to someone!!
That is why I have used both of these antennas Direct&the HDB91.
That has not let me down and it's been 5years on the first one I have
Installed and China yes just like the car's performance BETTER
than the USA grade.

bobsgarage

26-Mar-2019, 1:32 AM

Had a lengthy post underway earlier today but my my 2 month-old Dell desktop decided to crash on me with a BSOD and a memory error... so, you get the short answer this evening.

Anyway, the 91XG, like ALL of our antennas, has a lifetime warranty (try that with the Chinese-made stuff to which it has been compared). All customers need to do is contact us, the link is in my signature.

Have a great weekend!

AD Tech, what would you say the wind load is on these C4 / Max antennas?

So, the C4-V-CJM, I have been researching/reading. AD says it's re-engineered from the original C4. What did they do to improve it?

I imagine it has to be better, since its more expensive even without reflectors :)

Also, you mentioned that it is highly recommended along the WI-IL State line, that must be true since I see a lot of them. I should clarify. I see a lot of the the C4's with reflectors, usually aimed in opposing directions.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3324&stc=1&d=1553561360

Wouldn't they have been smarter to keep both and remove the reflectors? or even just one? Or, is the original C4 useless w/o the reflectors?

My experience has taught me that it's a bad idea to combine antennas pointing in two opposite directions.

I found a decent price for the C-MAX on Amazon, ($120.00) so I was thinking about purchasing one or two.
It also appears they still have some of the original CS4Vs with reflector for $109. Would that be a better deal?

Thanks, Bob

bobsgarage

26-Mar-2019, 3:31 AM

Above the antennas videos, through Dropbox:

Current set-up
https://db.tt/a5SDMFCqps

Earlier experiment:
https://db.tt/YASaxi2jMR

Nascarken

26-Mar-2019, 12:57 PM

AD Tech, what would you say the wind load is on these C4 / Max antennas?

So, the C4-V-CJM, I have been researching/reading. AD says it's re-engineered from the original C4. What did they do to improve it?

I imagine it has to be better, since its more expensive even without reflectors :)

Also, you mentioned that it is highly recommended along the WI-IL State line, that must be true since I see a lot of them. I should clarify. I see a lot of the the C4's with reflectors, usually aimed in opposing directions.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3324&stc=1&d=1553561360

Wouldn't they have been smarter to keep both and remove the reflectors? or even just one? Or, is the original C4 useless w/o the reflectors?

My experience has taught me that it's a bad idea to combine antennas pointing in two opposite directions.

I found a decent price on Amazon, ($120.00) so I was thinking about purchasing one or two.

Thanks, Bob

That set up I would say wins of 35too 50 say Goodbye to that wind sale.
And for that price, you should take a look AT the new channels master antenna
It will fly in the wind and receive them broadcasting station that you are looking for,and you won't need 2 to get the job done.

rabbit73

26-Mar-2019, 3:23 PM

Above the antennas videos, through Dropbox:

Current set-up
https://db.tt/a5SDMFCqps

Earlier experiment:
https://db.tt/YASaxi2jMR

Nice shot Bob; just like I was up there at the antenna!

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3325&d=1553613743

ADTech

26-Mar-2019, 4:52 PM

AD Tech, what would you say the wind load is on these C4 / Max antennas?No idea. We've never measured or calculated that.

So, the C4-V-CJM, I have been researching/reading. AD says it's re-engineered from the original C4. What did they do to improve it? Added the VHF module as far as I know. I don't know what you've seen or where it was found so I can't comment beyond that. Since the C4V and the rest of its generation of products have been superseded by the MAX series, I think only the MAX is shown on our website these days. Anyway, marketing copy isn't my department. ;)

Nascarken

26-Mar-2019, 10:45 PM

Ok but you're all most out of the hole of the tree's and the montin hill's up just ten ft more
And you will receive BROADCASTING station like no tomorrow and I suggest that for
The best results out of the 91x g is to put a channel master 7777amp to it the 91xg
Love's the channel master amp.And do not worry about over load becuse of your terane
With hill's and all the tree's good luck and be safe and look out for power lines when installing an outdoor tv antenna,73.

bobsgarage

28-Mar-2019, 1:37 PM

No idea. We've never measured or calculated that.

Added the VHF module as far as I know. I don't know what you've seen or where it was found so I can't comment beyond that. Since the C4V and the rest of its generation of products have been superseded by the MAX series, I think only the MAX is shown on our website these days. Anyway, marketing copy isn't my department. ;)

AD Tech,

Thanks for the quick reply, it's well appreciated.

No wind testing, surprising. They do appear to be very weather proof though and somewhat aero dynamic, especially with the reflectors removed (as designed).

So, here's where I saw they have been "re-engineered", according to Solid Signal's marketing Dept. of course:
http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3336&stc=1&d=1553863874
3336

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3337&stc=1&d=1553864120
3337

I've seriously entertained the idea of getting two. While reading reviews o Amazon, I did see where some complained about the VHF capabilities (over 35 miles).

If one was so inclined, could two of these be combined to one input?

bobsgarage

28-Mar-2019, 2:19 PM

Nice shot Bob; just like I was up there at the antenna!

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3325&d=1553613743

Hi Rabbit!

Hindsight being 20-20, I think I would have done a nicer job on the video. But then again, it kind of shows the perspective which is what I wanted. In the video the antennas are actually pointed opposite of the way I normally have them. In the video they're pointed at Milwaukee actually.

That's to say that Chicago is directly behind that tall fresh green maple tree opposite of the point of the antennas. That tree is gotten substantially larger by at least four or five feet I think. Still, reception has been good with the XG 91 even with the reflectors still hanging and the 30 - 2476 is kind of a waste because we only have one VHF High channel in Chicago.

But you're right, it does put you right up there with the antennas and even gives me that queasy feeling because I'm somewhat afraid of heights. I have a difficult time looking down when I'm up high, even the video gives me that feeling!

ADTech

28-Mar-2019, 2:34 PM

Solid Signal's write-up appears to be their in-house doing. I can see multiple errors.

Yes, multiple antennas of the same type may be connected following certain rules and with due consideration of the capabilities of the antenna as well as the desired result.

VHF reception via a simple dipole is always going to be a compromise and includes several factors outside the control of the device. The incorporation of a single dipole is a compromise driven by the need to have a very compact antenna that fits in a box smaller than a briefcase so that big-box retail stores will actually put it on their shelves. The alternative is a much larger antenna such as our C5 or conventional stick antennas. Outside of the home centers, you won't find either of those types of products available in-store at any of the national retailers, you'd have to special order them.

Nascarken

28-Mar-2019, 6:38 PM

rabbit73

28-Mar-2019, 7:37 PM

So, here's where I saw they have been "re-engineered", according to Solid Signal's marketing Dept. of course:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3333&stc=1&d=1553779189

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3334&stc=1&d=1553779189

Those attachments don't work for me, Bob.

bobsgarage

29-Mar-2019, 1:04 AM

Those attachments don't work for me, Bob.

That's funny, they were there this morning. I saw them on my phone and my computer but I don't see them anymore.

Could the administrators of this forum have edited those screenshots of the solid signal page out of my post? I'll send you them through the private messaging system.

I can't see any evidence of the attachments on my phone, but I see a lot of space in my original post.

I then re-added the to the original post. They are there as of this posting.

I will also add them here.
http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3336&d=1553863874
http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3337&d=1553864120

rabbit73

29-Mar-2019, 1:33 AM

That's funny, they were there this morning. I saw them on my phone and my computer but I don't see them anymore.

Could the administrators of this forum have and it did those screenshots of the solid signal page out of my post? I'll send you them through the private messaging system.I have found that on this forum an attachment doesn't "stick" unless it is first attached to a post as an attachment.

So, first I add it as an attachment to a post and Submit Reply. Then, I edit the post to add the image to the post text box so that it will show in the post.

If you just add an image to your list of attachments, it isn't linked to any particular post.

Once it is linked to the first post, you can the use it in another post like this:

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3325&d=1553613743

or even like this from another thread:

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3335&d=1553799935

bobsgarage

29-Mar-2019, 8:45 AM

Rabbit, Not sure what happened, the attachments must have been there when AD Tech reviewed them as he described that it was Solid Signal.

Here's the link:

https://www.solidsignal.com/m/product.aspx?p=C4MVJ

Tower Guy

29-Mar-2019, 12:02 PM

I put up one of those Winegard antennas at my parent’s house. It did very well at minimizing airplane flutter.

bobsgarage

29-Mar-2019, 12:16 PM

I have a 4 bay with no reflector and receive excellent reception from front and back. Back tower is appx 45 miles out and front towers are appx 60 miles out.

I even turned it slightly off line and receive some side towers, although not was well as the front and back towers.

Hi Rick , thanks for your input .

So you're using a 4-bay? My towers are approximately 10 miles closer each way.

Which 4-bay bay do you use?

bobsgarage

29-Mar-2019, 12:20 PM

I put up one of those Winegard antennas at my parent’s house. It did very well at minimizing airplane flutter.

You mean the HD 8100? I'll bet that was fun to put up! That's just a massive antenna. Is that one of the largest ever made?

What is airplane flutter?

Nascarken

29-Mar-2019, 12:25 PM

Hi Rick , thanks for your input .

So you're using a 4-bay? My towers are approximately 10 miles closer each way.

Which 4-bay bay do you use?

We'll below me down.
I use the antenna Direct 91xg!!!
And the best 8200u

bobsgarage

29-Mar-2019, 1:59 PM

Hello and Good Morning AD Tech.

If there's really no difference between the C4MAX and the CS4V, wouldn't the old CS4V be a better deal ? (At least at Amazon)

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3338&stc=1&d=1553867169

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3339&stc=1&d=1553867267

When I scroll through the pics, the main difference (I see) is there appears to be casing over the middle frame. Is that for weatherproofing?

The other difference (I see) is obvious. The reflectors are on the CS4V, should I ever need them.

The price difference is minimal, but when you add on the reflector kit to the C4MAX, it's greater. Your opinion (and other's as well) is appreciated.

Thanks, Bob

rabbit73

29-Mar-2019, 3:42 PM

You mean the HD 8100? I'll bet that was fun to put up! That's just a massive antenna. Is that one of the largest ever made?I think he means the CW-1001 wedge antenna.

What is airplane flutter?That is when an aircraft passes through the signal path. You get the direct signal from the transmitter, and a signal reflected from the aircraft. But, since the aircraft is moving, the reflection from the aircraft can add to or subtract from the direct signal, causing the received signal to go in and out.

The name "flutter" was coined in the analog TV days; you could see the signal get weaker or stronger as the aircraft moved by.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&ei=IpWeXP-HH8iX-gT385PYAQ&q=tv+signal+aircraft+flutter&oq=tv+signal+aircraft+flutter&gs_l=psy-ab.12...20462.28941..31527...0.0..0.190.1702.0j10......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i13j0i8i7i30j0i13i30j33i10.-3sQk9ISJ5M

https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/186-antenna-research-development/103432-airplane-flutter-interference.html#post962332