Antenna recommendation for East of Seattle wooded area

[hillhome4]

Greetings from east of Seattle in Bellevue (almost Issaquah)! Here is my TV Signal Analysis I would appreciate any recommendations on a rooftop antenna:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5134c465790c0a

It is my hope to use an eave mount with no larger than a 5 foot mast on either the north or south end of house which would give me maximum height. This would feed two TVs one with a TiVO OTA Roamio the other its internal tuner. I would run coax from the antenna to a wiring closet (new construction), then the wiring closet would have a splitter to the 2 TVs. Antenna to closet would be about 40 feet. Longest run from closet to TV would be ROUGHLY 100 feet.

The obstacle I see is that there are multiple large trees in the neighbor’s yard in the path of reception (closest tree about 50' away). On a whim to see if I could get ANY reception here I attached an older ClearStream™ 1 Convertible Indoor/Outdoor to a camera tripod on the back patio about 15 below roofline and was able to pick up local channels 4 (ABC), 5 (NBC), 7 (CBS), and 13 (FOX) on a moderate weather day. I would love to be able to pick up channels 9 (PBS) and 11 (CW) IF POSSIBLE.

I was looking at perhaps a Channel Master 8 bay or a Digital Advantage 100. Not sure if a yagi or combination of antenna styles are best given my site with trees.

Thank you for any help!
David

[rabbit73]

Welcome, David:

Your signals are strong and in the same direction. Trees are a problem, but your test with the C1 gives hope.

I would love to be able to pick up channels 9 (PBS) and 11 (CW) IF POSSIBLE.
9 and 11 are VHF-High channels; the C1 is for UHF. A VHF/UHF combo antenna should work, but no guarantee with the trees. Try a Winegaed HD7694P antenna aimed at 274 degrees magnetic on the eave mount that has the clearest path in that direction.

The CM 8-bay is primarily for UHF, real channels 14-51.

I doubt that you will need a preamp. Try one TV at the closet, then add the splitter, then see if there is enough signal at the 100 ft TV.

If there isn't enough signal for the 100 ft TV replace the splitter with a CM 3412.

Use the Roamio diagnostics screen signal strength and uncorrected errors or the TV signal strength indicator to help you.

If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1559&d=1441917363

[shoman94]

What an awesome TVFool. I think you have plenty antenna wise to choose from based on your test. For a smaller footprint its hard to choose against the Antennas Direct DB4e with a VHF Retrofit kit. Both can be had for at Amazon for under 100 combined.
For even a smaller antenna (about 1/2 the size of the DB4e) and close in performance, the Antennas Direct C2V is an excellent antenna for the same money at Amazon or even at big box stores such as Best Buy and Walmart.

What was the signal strength with the C1?
Good luck!

[rabbit73]

The C2V might do well. I picked the 7694 because it has more VHF-High gain for 9 and 11 than the C2V.

[shoman94]

Correct... I was just merely offering up another option. Dipoles do quite well with its large beam radius I have found. Your suggestions are solid as well. I hope you don't think I was discounting them.

[rabbit73]

No problem. The more information we give him, the better he is able to decide.

[hillhome4]

Hi Shoman94,
With the little Insignia crappy TV and its internal tuner I got between 2/3 to 1/2 signal strength. I did notice that I could move the tripod several feet one way or the other and lose all reception. With the tripod I have the ability to tilt so that the small C1 points more skyward and that diminished reception markedly. So guessing at whatever height a level to the horizon orientation of the antenna is best? Or maybe it is just this wooded area? Also am liking what I see when I read about the Winegard HD7694P. I have no problem spending a bit of money can this be improved on? Lastly, is higher always better? That is to say go to the highest possible point on the house? Thanks again to all.
Best,

[rickbb]

Generally speaking higher is better but there are plenty of exceptions. Your local terrain, trees, hills, buildings other houses, etc.

Anything between you and the transmitter will filter, break into multiple signals, totally block or reflect the signals.

It all makes finding that one sweet spot where you receive what you want pretty much a trial and error issue.

[shoman94]

Exactly well said.

With that antenna at 25ft, you should have no issues with it pointed at 274 degrees.

[ADTech]

When the signal has to pass through trees, reliable reception is NEVER a given, especially when the trees are wet and the wind is blowing.

Keep your expectations in check.

[shoman94]

We can also be positive a and have hope.

Any chance you could post a photo from the roof of the 25ft view at 274degrees?
The antenna might have to be pointed up slightly.... Trial and error.
I spent a month of trial and error on weekends getting mine right. I actually went through 3 antennas. It takes patients....

[ADTech]

We can also be positive a and have hope.

Not if you've been doing this as long as I have and have done the level of field research that I have.

It is my observation that one or more channels will usually fail to be reliable in such situations. Just wait until summer storms come along and see how the system turns out. Of course, in the Seattle area, it's wet much of the time and there are plenty of non-deciduous trees, so it's possible to have issues year-round. Or not. YMMV.

I've simply concluded that it's impossible to predict accurately thereby making it prudent to be cautious.

[shoman94]

I've simply concluded that it's impossible to predict accurately thereby making it prudent to be cautious.

Of course.... I don't believe anyone in this thread has predicted accurately. For me based on what I've been told in this situation I have high hopes.

We also can't be negative nancy about every situation. That in turn pushes people from even trying. The truth of the matter is that you never know until you try.

[hillhome4]

I will get up on the roof in the next few days and get a picture, one at north, the other at south location. More to come :)

[hillhome4]

Hi All,
Attached is a pdf of the roof. The arrow in the middle near top is 274 degrees magnetic north. To the right is the north eave and the south eave is not visible in this picture but is easier to work on.

Oddly I got a "Your submission could not be processed because a security token was missing." when trying to upload a jpg or bmp but this should work.
Best,
David

[shoman94]

Hi All,
Attached is a pdf of the roof. The arrow in the middle near top is 274 degrees magnetic north. To the right is the north eave and the south eave is not visible in this picture but is easier to work on.

Oddly I got a "Your submission could not be processed because a security token was missing." when trying to upload a jpg or bmp but this should work.
Best,
David

I still stand by all my comments and from that view I'd work the north end of the peak. That tree to the left looks a lot closer and very tall.

Personally I'd get the Antennas Direct C2V and mount it 10ft above the peak. From there evaluate the need for a preamp or drop amplifier. I think that antenna could "possibly" also receive channels 33 and 42 on the backside.

How long in the cable run to the splitter from the north end peak?

[ADTech]

We also can't be negative nancy about every situation. That in turn pushes people from even trying. The truth of the matter is that you never know until you try.

i set expectations to be realistic. If I cannot accurately predict reception, I do not. I instead give the plus and minus factors and allow the customer to make the final decision AFTER they have been informed of the potential pitfalls. Anything else is pollyannaish [adj:, unreasonably or illogically optimistic.]

By all means, give it a try, but do it with open eyes.

[hillhome4]

Hey Shoman94,
Sorry for the delay in reply. From the north peak it is roughly 50 feet to the wiring closet IF I can get it through the attic; extremely difficult to traverse. I have an installer coming out to take a look this week as the wind and rain have finally died down here in Seattle, imagine that!
David

[shoman94]

Cool, let us know how you make out with the installer

[hillhome4]

Bit of a disappointment. Went with an eave mount on the south end of the house and mast rises 3 feet above the roof-line with a ClearStream 4V. Tried with an amplifier and without and ABC (4.1), NBC (5.1), and CBS (7.1) are spotty at best with major pixalization. PBS (9.1-9.3) are non existent, 13.1 occasional. 16.1 and 22.1 appear to be good though. Antenna is pointed at 274 magnetic north. The ClearStream was my personal choice although my install guy is wanting to try one of his antennas on Monday. This may be a lost cause but willing to try his recommendation then go satellite or cable if that fails. Could just be a rough area where I am at. Will report back after Monday. Thanks again to all for your help!

[shoman94]

Bit of a disappointment. Went with an eave mount on the south end of the house and mast rises 3 feet above the roof-line with a ClearStream 4V. Tried with an amplifier and without and ABC (4.1), NBC (5.1), and CBS (7.1) are spotty at best with major pixalization. PBS (9.1-9.3) are non existent, 13.1 occasional. 16.1 and 22.1 appear to be good though. Antenna is pointed at 274 magnetic north. The ClearStream was my personal choice although my install guy is wanting to try one of his antennas on Monday. This may be a lost cause but willing to try his recommendation then go satellite or cable if that fails. Could just be a rough area where I am at. Will report back after Monday. Thanks again to all for your help!

Can you take a photo of the antenna's view? From your previous photo the tree looks very large in front of that peak. Also you'll likely need to be higher than 3 ft above the peak. The C4v has a very narrow main beam lobe so grabbing signals around trees are more difficult also. What antenna does the installer want to try and also what is the opinion of the installer on the location?

[rabbit73]

With all this discussion about the best antenna and the trees, has anyone noticed that you have some strong local FM signals that might be causing interference to TV reception, especially for VHF-High?

This is your FM signal report, based on my estimate of your location, since I don't have your exact address:
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/426500ead2/Radar-FM.png

I think you should make a test with an FM filter after the antenna. In your case, I suggest using a HLSJ instead of an ordinary FM filter.

The HLSJ can be used as an effective FM filter. It will block signals below TV channel 7, including the FM band. Use the High and common ports and insert it in the coax line from the antenna.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=zhlsj

http://www.atvresearch.com/hlsjvhfbandhigh-lowseparator-combiner.aspx

http://www.nsccom.com/hlsj.aspx

As I mentioned in post #2, it is important to ground the coax shield with a grounding block to reject interference which can get directly into the TV cabinet if it isn't grounded.

You also should use the Roamio Diagnostics screen to monitor signal strength, SNR, and uncorrected errors when selecting a location for your antenna and aiming the antenna.

[hillhome4]

Shoman94 and Rabbit73 thanks for the input; bad pun intended! The coax shield and antnenna are both grounded with separate runs. Fascinating about FM interference and that looks like an inexpensive try which I will get going. Will report back again when I have more info...

[hillhome4]

Shoman94, the installer said of the site that it is a bit difficult, and that the ABC and NBC stations were in different directions. Believe one tower is in Bremerton across Puget Sound if memory serves me correctly. He seemed to think that it would be a choice to make, in that pick one and we would try to optimize reception and the other may not come in at all. He was encouraged by the model antenna he has in his shop, will be back Monday to try that one, and I'll let you know what it is and the results...

[shoman94]

Shoman94, the installer said of the site that it is a bit difficult, and that the ABC and NBC stations were in different directions. Believe one tower is in Bremerton across Puget Sound if memory serves me correctly. He seemed to think that it would be a choice to make, in that pick one and we would try to optimize reception and the other may not come in at all. He was encouraged by the model antenna he has in his shop, will be back Monday to try that one, and I'll let you know what it is and the results...

rabbit73 brings up a good point!

ABC and NBC are only 2 degrees apart according to your TVFOOL report. I also think elevation is a key player here and that tree I saw in the photo.