OTA in rural KY... again

[dustyz]

I posted several years ago and got some great advice. I'm moving, and the new location is a little more rural, if that is possible, and I think the reception will be worse. ADVICE NEEDED! :-)

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d513485fc4f0993

I'm building a 38-40ft tilt-down mast for my antenna (http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Tilt-Over_Mast), and have about 100ft of new underground rated RG6 cable running to it. I'd like to pick up these channels, if possible:

WDRB
WAVE
WLKY
WHAS or WBKO

I don't get WHAS or WBKO now (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d51349476637146), with my DB4e & pre-amp on the roof, but that was expected being in the VHF range. If I'm buying new, I'd like to pick it up. I'll need a new pre-amp too, and have the Winegard LNA-200 Boost XT in my amazon cart as we speak.

Most of those channels are at 43 degrees, so they are aligned. I know I have stronger signals in other directions, but these are the most used/needed.

Thanks in advance.

[rabbit73]

Hi, dustyz:

Yeah, the signals will be weaker at your new location. Your new mast will come in handy because you will need to do a lot of testing.

Try the DB4e and a preamp at the new location. You can add a VHF-High antenna using a UVSJ, and aim it at WBKO. An alternative would be to use a VHF-High/UHF combo antenna aimed at WHAS.

If the DB4e doesn't have enough gain for your new location, consider the DB8e with both panels aimed in the same direction.

The separate VHF-High antennas currently available are the MCM 30-2475 and 30-2476. They are inexpensive, have poor instructions, but seem to do OK.
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/STELLAR-LABS-30-2475-/30-2475
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/STELLAR-LABS-30-2476-/30-2476

The LNA 200 has been redesigned to meet the price point of the big box stores. My impression is that it isn't as good as when it first came out. My major concern is that it is powered by 5 volts, and there might be too much voltage dtop in a 100 ft run of coax. RG6 with a solid copper center conductor would have less voltage drop than RG6 with a copper coated steel center conductor.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/2325961-reducing-coax-cable-length-better-reception.html#post41430993

What preamp are you using now?

[dustyz]

I'm currently using this preamp:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003P92D9Y?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

It works well enough at the current location, but I plan to leave it with the house.

Do you think the DB8e would work at the new location? I don't plan to take the DB4e with me, so I will be buying new regardless.

Thanks for the advice.

[rabbit73]

The DB8e should be OK. It has more gain if both panels are aimed in the same direction. It has a more narrow horizontal beamwidth, but that shouldn't matter if all UHF channels are in the same direction.

[dustyz]

Hey rabbit. A quick update. I went with the db8e and pointed in the correct direction to get the channels we want. Strangely, and like you predicted, the Winegard Boost preamp has some issues with the 100ft run, maybe.

I ended up putting the antenna on a tilt pole that's about 23ft tall. Thats about 7 or so feet above my metal garage. I have another 20ft ready to add if needed. When lowered on the ground with the db8e sideways and completely off focus, the signal is ok on about 5 channels. When I stand it up, all signal disappears. I mean gone too... Not just weak. The signal is only a few points stronger with the antenna connected to the HDHomerun than without it.

I plan to test without the preamp tomorrow, hoping things are just over saturated... And not a metal building interference issue. You'd think the latter would be an issue with it lowered as well tho.

Ideas?

[Billiam]

If you are going to run 100 feet of cable you might want to invest in a good RG11 cable. Will have lower loss. Even a half db to a db on some channels will make all the difference between reliable reception on most days vs. an unwatchable signal on most days. I found that out a few years ago when I replaced a 75 foot run of RG6 with RG11. Made the difference on one UHF signal.

[dustyz]

Thanks Bill. That's a good idea. It turned out to be a longer run than I originally thought, so I'm probably closer to 150ft, unfortunately.

There was a pinch in the coax, near the hinge of the tilt pole, that caused the signal loss. I fixed that & picked up a good 19 channels at about 75ft on the coax run. The signal is fairly strong on those that were picked up, at around 70-75% on the HDHomerun. But, by the time I run the remaining 75ft, the signal is gone, or too weak to pick up.

So, I'm trying to figure out a way to maximize signal strength. I have one splice in the first 75ft section that I could remove. I could replace the first 75ft with RG11, as you recommended too. I could push the antenna up another 17ft too. My pre-amp is fine, I think.

I'm running numbers now. It looks like RG6 has a 5.60db loss over 75ft (using a 600Mhz base frequency), while the RG11 would be somewhere around 3.55db. Is that correct? That's a substantial 2db gain over 75ft. I can't replace the full 150ft... the last 75 of RG6 was installed below grade in conduit. Correction. I could probably replace that other 75 too, since it is in conduit. I could probably pull it through easier. (That's an idea. 200ft of RG11 is $100 on Amazon. I'll check on connectors too, because I'll need those)

Now, I only put my mast @ 23ft now, but have enough area/material to add another 17ft if needed. So, here is my report for 23ft: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d51344e0b85d224

As of now, I'm clearly picking up the following channels @ the 75ft coax mark:

WTVW - 7.1 - 9.4db
WBKO - 13.1 - 4.7db
WDRB - 41.1 - 1.5db
WMYO - 58.1 - 1.3db
WLKY - 32.1 - -1.5db
WHAS - 11.1 - -2.1db
WKZT - 23.1 - -7.5db
WBKI - 34.1 - -15.2db (How the hell?)

Here is the report for 40ft: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d513497ea72eb52

WTVW - 7.1 - 11.1db (+1.7db)
WBKO - 13.1 - 7.3db (+2.9db)
WDRB - 41.1 - 6.8db (+5.3db)
WMYO - 58.1 - 6.6db (+5.3db)
WLKY - 32.1 - 3.6db (+5.1db)
WHAS - 11.1 - 1.8db (+3.9db)
WKZT - 23.1 - -1.7db (+5.8db)
WBKI - 34.1 - -15.2db (+1.5db)

Major gains with the increased elevation. Those gains alone could potential offset any coax loss, right? If I replace the first 75ft of coax with RG11, gaining 2db across the board, then bump the antenna up 15-17ft, I'll see 3-8db gains on all the important channels.

Is that the direction I should head first? Thanks for the advice!

[dustyz]

Yep, that's the plan. I'm replacing the last 75ft with RG11, through the conduit. The rest is above grade, so I can replace it any time easily. That should give me a few db's. Then, I'm raising the antenna another 10ft on the pole. I could go higher, but aesthetically, I'd rather not unless I absolutely need to. I'll go ahead and add the full 17ft pole, but move the antenna up 10. I can remove the 7ft at any time if the signal quality is good, or move the antenna up if forced.

So, based on my calculations & this link (http://www.net-comber.com/cable-loss.html), I should see these gains(lack of loss?) with the RG11:

200Mhz? band RG11 increases = 0.79db
WHAS - 11 - -2.1db
WBKO - 13 - 4.7db
WBKI - 19 - -15.2db

500Mhz band RG11 increases = 1.24db
WTVW - 28 - 9.4db
WLKY - 26 - -1.5db

600Mhz band RG11 increases = 1.37db
WKZT - 43 - -7.5db
WDRB - 49 - 1.5db
WMYO - 51 - 1.3db

Bumping the antenna up another 10ft should show gains of:

WHAS - 11 - -2.1db +3.2db
WBKO - 13 - 4.7db +1.5db
WBKI - 19 - -15.2db +1.0db
WTVW - 28 - 9.4db +0.8db
WLKY - 26 - -1.5db +0.4db
WKZT - 43 - -7.5db +3.2db
WDRB - 49 - 1.5db +3.5db
WMYO - 51 - 1.3db +3.4db

I have one unnecessary splice in the RG6 up the antenna, due to the crimping issue, that I could remove. That should pick up between 0.2db-1.0db from what I've read.

Every little bit will help.

[Billiam]

Dustyz. Calculations you provided are probably right. I used an online tool to calculate that stuff back when I was looking at using RG11. At my current home which is just south of Cincinnati, the signals are so strong that I don't need it. Even get four Dayton stations with a little 4 bay (U4000 from Antennacraft) and the RCA pre amp.

BTW. Replacing the RCA with a higher gain pre amp may also help. The RCA is a good amp and ideally suited in areas with some stronger signals nearby. But there are other pre amps which offer better gain and a lower noise floor that should help if you are in a real fringe or deep fringe area.

Replacing the entire run of RG6 with RF11 is the best move. You will lose some signal if you have to do a splice or use a connector of some type.

[dustyz]

Replacing the RCA with a higher gain pre amp may also help. The RCA is a good amp and ideally suited in areas with some stronger signals nearby. But there are other pre amps which offer better gain and a lower noise floor that should help if you are in a real fringe or deep fringe area.


I think you are correct, the pre-amp is underpowered. (I'm using a Winegard Boost XT (http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-LNA-200-Boost-Digital-Preamplifier/dp/B00DQN3R9O) at the moment, however.)

Over the weekend I raised the antenna to 33ft & replaced 100ft of RG6 with RG11. So, now I have 100ft of RG11, with 3/4 of it underground + 50ft of RG6, down the antenna pole & over to the RG11... and an inline surge connector in the middle, working as a splice. No other splitters or junctions in the line, and 150ft total coax.

I can pick up a few channels on the Tivo, but they are in and out... nothing reliable. That's more than I've been able to get up to this point, so that's a good thing.

It just bothers me because I can put the HDHomerun inline between the two cables, and the signal strength is ok @ 70-75 on several channels. Decent quality too.

But, like you (and rabbit) said above, I think the pre-amp might be the problem now. It's one of those USB powered pre-amps, so I might need to spend a little more on a higher gain/voltage setup.

Recommendations? Or, do you think that's the problem? (I will likely start with the pre-amp, then swap out the remaining RG6 if that doesn't help.)

EDIT:
Here's a thought too. The underground portion of the RG11 is in a 2" conduit with 4 other wires. Two of those wires are for my PoE network, while the other two are for my alarm system. Do you think the coax is picking up a lot of noise from those?

[dustyz]

I found this link, and it's very educational for those who don't understand the basics, like me. :-)
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/basics.html

That page basically says I need a low noise pre-amp with enough gain to cover the signal loss over the coax, and another 10db to keep the Tivo receiver out of the picture. It goes on to say I could boost it another 10db without causing problems @ the receiver.

So, I could in theory, use a pre-amp with a 25+ gain. Wow.

What about one of the Channel Master 7777 pre-amps (http://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Antenna_Preamplifier_p/cm-7777.htm)? Recommended? They have a higher 15V voltage that could transcend the coax without too much drop, and enough gain to compensate for signal loss. Low noise too, at under 2db.

[Billiam]

Kitztech makes a low noise, high gain pre amp. I tried one and it works but I had too many strong signals nearby to make it effective. That is why I use the RCA unit. If I end up moving to a rural area again I would buy the Kitztech.

[dustyz]

Interesting. I've never heard of that company.

Which model did you have? It looks like the KT-200 would work well for me. I don't like the lack of weather protection on the amp.

Thanks for the help.

EDIT:
I emailed Kitztech, and he recommended the KT-500 because of the distance from stations & cable run. $110... that's an expensive investment. :-|

[Billiam]

Yeah, I tried the KT-500. I agree with that assessment. You can return it for a refund if it doesn't work for you. I returned mine since I had too much signal overload where I as using it.

[rabbit73]

I favor the Channel Master 7777 for you. It is easily overloaded, but I don't see any very strong signals in your report that would do that.

I also did an FM signal report using your short coordinates. I don't see any FM signals strong enough to interfere with TV reception, and the 7777 has an FM filter.
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/06326445be/Radar-FM.png

The Kitztech and Research Comm preamps are in a special class with ultra low Noise Figures to receive weaker signals, but they are more sensitive to static damage; that's the trade-off. Both manufacturers have added protective devices to reduce possible static damage.

If you go with Kitztech, the reports say go with the 200 for a low NF. Calaveras at AVS has done extensive testing of preamps for NF and SFDR. Spurious Free Dynamic Range defines the ability to receive weak signals when you also have strong signals that might interfere.

PREAMP COMPARISON CHART IN ATTACHMENT.

[ADTech]

I would skip the KT500 completely. I can't, for the life of me, justify its existence based on my testing of it.

The KT200, when I tested it for gain and noise figure five years ago, tested well. I didn't have overload testing ability at that time, so I've not investigated that aspect of it.

If in doubt, stick with one of the medium gain pre-amps, they will, at least, keep4you out of overload trouble. You can always add a distribution amp down the line if necessary.

[dustyz]

I favor the Channel Master 7777 for you.

Thanks. The reviews I read for the Kitztech series were usually compared to the 7777... which is encouraging. It's $50 cheaper too.

[rabbit73]

ADTech's conservative advice is also valid. The lower gain preamps, like the CM7778 and the AD Juice, have sufficient gain to cover distribution losses. Once the signals are amplified by the preamp, they are better protected from distribution losses. A 3 dB loss between the antenna and the preamp input can be 10x worse than a 3 dB loss after the preamp. So, keep the coax between the antenna and the preamp input short, because that loss directly subtracts from the antenna gain and increases the System Noise Figure. Here is an example of how much difference the placement of a 3 dB loss can make:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1976&d=1461612830

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1977&d=1461612839

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1978&d=1461612848

The preamp Noise Figure is important because it primarily determines the System Noise figure because of its location at the head end, according to the Friis Noise Figure equation; the lower the figure, the better able you are to receive weak signals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friis_formulas_for_noise

You can do your own calculations for your system using the Systm Noise Figure Calculator by holl_ands and majortom:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota

http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota;jsessionid=mgmdv1e6n2.dog_s?p=6&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=1&s=0&z=4

[Billiam]

The Kitztech has a lower noise floor than the CM. I also own the 7777 and it is a good pre amp. But it does have a higher noise floor.

[dustyz]

Thanks for the help everyone, and useful charts, rabbit. I ended up going with the 7777, and will take the chance of overload. There are just too many good reviews out there for the 7777.

I spoke with Winegard, and they said the LNA-200 wasn't recommended for cable lengths over 100ft, and "it will result in signal loss." I'm really hoping that's the issue. I know the signals come in clearly halfway down the line, then fall off too much after the full 150ft. It does make sense.

We'll see. TBD

[rabbit73]

Your tests confirm the voltage drop problem in a long coax run. The RG11 not only has less signal attenuation, but it also should have less voltage drop for a preamp.

I found this link, and it's very educational for those who don't understand the basics, like me. :-)
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/basics.html
There is a lot of good basic information on hdtvprimer.com, but some of the preamp and antenna models are no longer available.

Keep in mind that every reception location is unique and requires a custom solution.

Calaveras also did a page on noise and preamp gain:
http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Noise/noise.html

[rabbit73]

This diagram shows how much difference a preamp can make in receiving weak signals:

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/NMdiagOutdoorRev_zpsvz5kpah4.png

This is for weak signal DX:

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/NMdiagDX_zpsngrbviyw.png

[dustyz]

***UPDATE***

I installed the 7777 last night, and WOW did it make a difference. I went from having a few unwatchable channels on the Tivo to 10-15 good channels! Massive boost! The most important channels come in clearly.

We also had a nice storm roll through last nite, with gusts up to 60mph in some nearby areas. It gave my antenna mast a good test, and it passed just fine. That's a plus. We did lose almost every channel during the heaviest part of the storm, but that's expected in our location & with the route of the weather. I can deal with that.

Thanks for the help guys. I'll probably try to tweak a few more things here and there, just to solidify what we already have, but I'm very happy with the setup.

[rabbit73]

Thanks for the update with the good news. I'm always glad to hear that our ideas work.

[Billiam]

Yup. Glad to hear it worked. Pre amps are funny just like antennas. One will work better than another or worse depending upon where and how it is uses. I used a CM 7777 for a while a few years ago in a rural town near KC. But on a whim I switched to a Winegard 8275 and got better results with the Winegard at that location. Signals that were pixelating with the 7777 were rock solid with the Winegard. All depends upon the antenna you use and other factors like cables I suspect.

[dustyz]

Another update...

Over the summer our channels started to disappear. I redirected to the 290° angle shown on the TVFool report and picked up several steady signals. That slowly seemed to drop off over summer, to under 6 reliable channels by October. I assumed it was largely because of foliage. When the antenna was installed, it was early spring after all.

So fast forward to last weekend. All signals went out. No channels at all. I lowered the antenna and checked connections, cables, etc. I rebooted the Tivo that the antenna was connected to, and the preamp. Nothing. I ended up moving a HDHomerun out to the antenna, effectively eliminating the cable run but still using the preamp, and tested signal strength.

What I found was interesting. The signal strength was 100% on most stations, but had no quality. BUT, I could completely remove one side of the DB8e, effectively making it a DB4e, and I picked up more channels than I've EVER had. Stations from different directions, solid signal qualities, it was nice. (That's actually how I'm using it at the moment.)

If I connect the UHF combiner back up, using both sides of the antenna, the signal is gone. Connect only one side to the combiner, making it unloaded, and it's still gone. Nothing works through the combiner, period. I threw in a 2 way splitter, to see if it worked, and got the same results.

I spoke with Antenna's Direct, and they said having both sides of the antenna pointing in the same direction makes it very directional. However, pivoting them 30° off one another really helps signal strength. I tried that... no luck. It didn't change anything.

Am I over-powering the tuner? It's most certainly sounding like it. Is there an easy way to test that? I put a splitter in the line, midway to the house, and connected both the Tivo and the HDHomerun, and it didn't change anything.

[rabbit73]

I threw in a 2 way splitter, to see if it worked, and got the same results.How were you using the splitter? Did you add the splitter after the combiner but before the preamp input as an attenuator, or did you replace the DB8e combiner with a splitter in reverse as a combiner?
I put a splitter in the line, midway to the houseWhy, to act as an attenuator? Did you insert it between the preamp and the power inserter? Is it a power passing splitter?
Am I over-powering the tuner? It's most certainly sounding like it. Is there an easy way to test that?Yes, insert an attenuator between the power inserter and the tuner.

How do I test my Titan 2 High Gain Preamplifier (CM7777) preamplifier to make sure it is working correctly?
http://support.channelmaster.com/hc/en-us/articles/200380525-How-do-I-test-my-Titan-2-High-Gain-Preamplifier-CM7777-preamplifier-to-make-sure-it-is-working-correctly-

[dustyz]

How were you using the splitter? Did you add the splitter after the combiner but before the preamp input as an attenuator, or did you replace the DB8e combiner with a splitter in reverse as a combiner?

I replaced the DB8e combiner with the splitter in reverse. (A recommendation from Antenna's Direct to test the combiner.) I also placed it mid-line as a attenuator, which since it doesn't pass power, I realize was a mistake. I'll move it between the power inserter and tuner tonite.

Thanks for the link.

While I'm getting into it, can you think of anything else I should try? Antenna's Direct also said a local cell tower could be interfering with the CM-7777.

[rabbit73]

anything else I should try?
and an inline surge connector in the middleWhich surge connector? Is it still there?
Antenna's Direct also said a local cell tower could be interfering with the CM-7777.That is possible if it is close enough and it is using frequencies just above TV CH 51.

[dustyz]

Which surge connector? Is it still there?
That is possible if it is close enough and it is using frequencies just above TV CH 51.

Yeah, it's still there. I did pull it out when testing, and just put a coupling in there, no difference.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0016AIYU6/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[rabbit73]

That is supposed to be a good one, but coax surge protectors have a device connected between the center conductor and the shield that is known to degrade weak signals. I only use a grounding block which just grounds the shield and meets the requirement of the NEC for an ADU (Antenna Discharge Unit), especially if it is a "Listed" device.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2451&stc=1&d=1478813131

Maybe ADTech will stop by and help you with the DB8e problem in post #26.

[ADTech]

I've been working with him directly via email.

[dustyz]

Ok, I've finally found time to work on this setup again. I've been talking with ADTech about it via email, but figured I'd get more eyes on the problem. I'm sure he appreciates that. ;-)

I'm going to clear up a few things first, then share some info I've collected.

Here is the accurate TVFool report, with the adjusted 32ft elevation for the DB8e:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a40f8dc0b42b

Here is the FMFool report:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByE8RolzoOUkcktwUVk5UnUzU00

My Antenna layout and setup:
http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2540&stc=1&d=1485363646

Notice the panels/elements are off broadside about 10 degrees each, and should probably be closer to 15-20 each, but...

The spread for the DB8e @ 0 degrees:
http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2546&stc=1&d=1485366428

The spread for the DB8e @ 15 degrees:
http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2541&stc=1&d=1485363697

I have 4 cell towers within 10 miles. Number one is only 1.2 miles away, but just north of us @ 6 degrees. Numbers 2, 3, and 4 are all in the 240-280 degree range.

As we've discussed before, I've always had trouble getting what I though I should with the DB8e. Last summer I disconnected one panel on the DB8e, bypassed the combiner, and effectively made a DB4e to test. I received more channels than I ever though I could. It worked great for a while, but when the leaves fell over the winter, I lost nearly all channels. (http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2545&stc=1&d=1485365895)

I recently connected the DB8e back up, as I thought it should be. The setup linked above is how it's currently configured, and Channel 7(28) will occasionally show up on the TV... nothing else. Assuming overpowering, and per the recommendation of this place & ADTech, I added a splitter between the pre-amp and the DB8e, knocking the input signal an additional 3db. Here is a 24-1000Mhz RTLSDR scan from that:
http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2544&stc=1&d=1485365553

So, I've effectively started over. I try to run two tests a night, lowering the tower to make tweaks. I've made scans prior to the surge protector, and although they show gains on a few channels, not enough to warrant the overall loss.

Based on the information above, what do you all think I should try next? Or, better yet, what tests would help identify the problem?

Thanks, I know there's a lot of information. I appreciate the help.

[dustyz]

Two more scans tonite. The antenna direction and elevation did not change from the scan in my previous post above.

One, I completely removed the attenuation, preamp & injector from the mix, and took my scan at the same TV location connected straight to the RG11:
http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2548&stc=1&d=1485394200

Two, I kept the attenuation, preamp & injector removed, but replaced the surge protector with a grounding block/coupling, scan completed at the TV:
http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2547&stc=1&d=1485394202

The results were very close. The grounding block/coupling actually decreased the signal slightly. I'd say that's because my ground wasn't cleanly connected to the block... I noticed that after the scan.

[dustyz]

Two things...

Antennas Direct Tech support is awesome, and have been extremely patient and helpful via email. ADTech helped me learn, research, identify, and fix our channel loss issue.

It ended up being the preamp. I think the 7777 is amplifying, but at a much lower level than it should be. The loss in the coax was negligible. I still need to run some tests to verify the preamp is getting the correct voltage from the injector & not just overpowering the tuner. To be continued...