Does mileage stated matter?

[SusanS]

Good, now that you are reading this...

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8e031da8f4c41d

This is me. I have large oaks behind the home, beyond that fairly straight shot to the towers.

I am certain I need an outdoor antenna, attached to my roof. Given the trees, (of course they are right in line to the stations) do I go for longer distance antenna, ie 60 miles vs 50 miles (I am under 50 miles to the more desirable stations)? Or do I get a different kind?

I tried 50 mile indoor antenna, and got only the very local spanish channel. Wasn't really what I was looking for.

I am strapped for money, so I don't want to be sinking a lot into this endeavor. I have the Roku, and that has so far saved my sanity from the lack of cable.

I thank you all in advance.

[ADTech]

Trees and terrain make mileage estimates irrelevant.

[rabbit73]

Welcome Susan:

We don't pay much attention to antenna mileage figures; they are a creation of marketing departments. What counts is the signal strength and the terrain between the transmitter and your location as listed on your tvfool report. The antenna mileage figure doesn't matter if, for example, there is a big hill 5 miles away that blocks the signal.
I have large oaks behind the home, beyond that fairly straight shot to the towers.
What worries me about your location are the trees that block the signals. Your tvfool report doesn't take into consideration trees or other buildings in the signal path.
I tried 50 mile indoor antenna, and got only the very local spanish channel.Tell us about the antenna. What model is it? Is it amplified?

Did you try the indoor antenna outside?

With an outdoor antenna, your signals are very strong, especially WUNI, which would overload an amp.

Your signals in green are all UHF, real channels 14-51, so you only need a UHF antenna.
I am strapped for money, so I don't want to be sinking a lot into this endeavor.We understand, and will keep that in mind, but the trees make it necessary to experiment with the antenna and its location to find a good spot. Maybe you could start with an attic if you have one, but I suspect you are right that it will need to be outside and high up to avoid the trees as much as possible.

Some UHF antennas to consider:
Antennas Direct C2
Antennas Direct DB2e
Antennas Direct DB4e for more gain

less expensive, quality not as good
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/30-2425
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HDB4X&d=Solid-Signal-Xtreme-Signal-HDB4X-4-Bay-Outdoor-TV-Antenna-(HDB4X)&c=TV Antennas&sku=700112818400

If your antenna is outdoors the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1559&d=1441917363

[SusanS]

Hi,

Thank you so much for answering and helping me out.

Tell us about the antenna. What model is it? Is it amplified?

RCA ANT1150F ULTRATHIN INDOOR HDTV ANTENNA (AMPLIFIED UP TO 60-MILE RANGE)

When I hooked it up to the television, I got nothing. The cable was really short, so I didn't have a lot of wiggle room. When I put it closest to window, I got WUNI station (spanish one)

I returned that to the store.

I experimented with making my own antenna. With that outside, slightly above ground level, I was able to get WUNI and very fuzzily another station. But the connections I had were amateurish and not sturdy. I didn't have the necessary cables and had reversed one of the output cables to use to connect to antenna. But that is just to give you an idea of what I have done.

An attic setup probably will be an act in futility. It has blown in insulation in the area I would need to set it up in.

I intend to use the former cable companies connection to inside of the house. They were kind enough to show me where it is. That goes to a splitter in the basement. That is grounded.


I have since bought the 1byone digital outdoor HDTV antenna, with the intent of putting it on the roof. However, when trying to set it up, the metal connector on the cable came off in my hand. So I can't really try that out. I am deciding if I want to return it, as my confidence in them has been shaken.

The oak trees in back yard are on a hill...so they get higher. I really can't go too high above the roof. Maybe attach to chimney, but that isn't too much higher than roof.

Do you think an amplifier would also be necessary?

Thank you so much,
Susan

[rabbit73]

Sounds like you have been busy already making tests.
The cable was really short, so I didn't have a lot of wiggle room.
You can extend a cable with an F-81 adapter.
1byone digital outdoor HDTV antennaWhat model? Do you have a link?
.....when trying to set it up, the metal connector on the cable came off in my hand.....my confidence in them has been shaken.
I would feel the same way.
The oak trees in back yard are on a hill...so they get higher.Uh-Oh, it's sounding worse.
I intend to use the former cable companies connection to inside of the house. They were kind enough to show me where it is. That goes to a splitter in the basement. That is grounded.That should be adequate for a start, but the code requires the coax shield be grounded AND the mast be grounded with separate wire. You might be able to do what the dish guys do, which is called "piggyback," which isn't strictly by code. Run a 10 gauge wire from the mast to the coax grounding block.

Satellite System Grounding
Part 2 - NEC Overview
Presented by Todd Humphrey

http://www.dbsinstall.com/diy/Grounding-2.asp

Todd Humphrey doesn't speak for the NFPA that publishes the NEC code, but he has some ideas that are helpful. The local electrical inspector has the final say if you are willing to get him involved. Some inspectors are more friendly than others; a local electrician could tell you.

The splitter causes a 3.5 dB loss of signal when it is divided in two. If you use a preamp, the splitter would keep the indoor power supply from sending power up to the preamp at the antenna, unless you use a special power-passing splitter. You can avoid that problem if you split to more than one TV after the indoor power supply/power inserter.
Do you think an amplifier would also be necessary?It's beginning to sound like you will need one because of the trees and the hill that weaken the signals. If the antenna was in the clear, the preamp would be overloaded by WUNI with a Noise Margin of 73.4 dB.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1522&d=1441462888

Interpreting Noise Margin in the TV Fool Report

http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Reception/tvfool_nm.html

[SusanS]

You can extend a cable with an F-81 adapter

I have found that out, thanks. I wasn't going to go to the trouble with the RCA, as it was an indoor model, and I knew it then it wasn't going to work.

What model? Do you have a link?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00WW7H4XK?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

the model is: 1byone® Amplified Outdoor Antenna - 50 Miles Range Outdoor Antenna for VHF&UHF with SMD Circuit Technology, Detachable Amplifier USB Power Supply

I think perhaps my wording was wrong. The outside juncture is grounded to the electrical box. Once the cable enters the home, it then goes to a splitter for the two televisions. Does that change what you wrote??

Does this change your thoughts on which antenna I should be looking at? Is it better to buy one built in, or on its own?

[rabbit73]

It would have been nice if the 1byone® Amplified Outdoor Antenna had worked for a test. It might have given you a clue about reception.
Once the cable enters the home, it then goes to a splitter for the two televisions.Good
Does this change your thoughts on which antenna I should be looking at? Is it better to buy one built in, or on its own?The type of antenna that you bought is a low gain antenna with poor performance coupled with an amplifier that tries to make up for its shortcomings. The problems is, if a good signal isn't coming out of the antenna proper, an amp can't create one: GIGO.

I prefer to use an antenna that has more gain, and add an amplifier if needed.

[SusanS]

Some UHF antennas to consider:
Antennas Direct C2
Antennas Direct DB2e
Antennas Direct DB4e for more gain

less expensive, quality not as good
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/30-2425
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=700112818400

Would these still be your recommendations for antennas?

Would attaching it to the chimney be okay, or free standing on a mount?

Thanks :)

[rabbit73]

Would these still be your recommendations for antennas?Yes, but I would like ADTech to double check my analysis in case I overlooked something. There are many factors involved, so you will need to continue with the experimental approach. I don't want to waste your money, so you need to go step-by-step.

Would attaching it to the chimney be okay, or free standing on a mount?A chimney sounds OK if it is in good condition. An eave mount might be easier. I can't see what the building and the trees look like. You could try a temporary test outside before deciding.

[SusanS]

Yes, but I would like ADTech to double check my analysis in case I overlooked something. There are many factors involved, so you will need to continue with the experimental approach. I don't want to waste your money, so you need to go step-by-step.

Okay :)

Chimney is in okay condition, but I think the eave would be better.

I hadn't returned the other antenna and was able to get some cable (recycling center) and rigged up the antenna using a ten foot electrical pole. I was able to approximate the location the antenna would sit. I got only the very local station. Although I didn't have the booster on.

I returned the antenna, as customer service failed to assist, and who needs that headache.

Would you like me to take a picture and attach here? Would that help?

Thank you so much.

[ADTech]

Would you like me to take a picture and attach here? Would that help?

Absolutely, especially if you can take the photo from either the antenna's intended location or from directly beneath it (and tell use what the perspective is).

[SusanS]

Google Earth view. House is marked at WHITE ARROW. The picture has NORTH on the LEFT, EAST at top. The Red X is where the antenna would be. According to google earth, the yard sits at 575' above sea level. The WHITE X marks the highest point, per google earth at 645'. Mind you there are oak trees which are taller. Beyond this highest point, it drops off...straight shot to Boston.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l314/SarahSusan/Antenna%20Help/1105151533a.jpg

I am about 10 feet below where the antenna would be. There is a maple tree to the left. The camera is about 18' off the ground.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l314/SarahSusan/Antenna%20Help/1105151533.jpg

The view to the roof. Taken from same place as above picture.

I hope these pictures help.

[ADTech]

I would recommend a DB4e mounted to the chimney aimed directly across the swimming pool.

I will also recommend trimming the tree limbs to the left and also turning the trees directly beyond the pool into firewood (if you own them) so as to create a gap for the signals to get to the antenna. If you do not or cannot do this, your reception WILL be at the mercy of the trees and all bets are off.

[SusanS]

I will also recommend trimming the tree limbs to the left and also turning the trees directly beyond the pool into firewood

I own the whole hill. :rolleyes: Sadly can't afford to get the trees cut down. Oh how I wish.

I very much appreciate your help!

[rabbit73]

Thanks for the photos.

Sadly can't afford to get the trees cut down. Oh how I wish.Wouldn't harvesting pay for the cutting?

I agree with ADTech on the DB4e.

If you can't cut trees, can you go higher with the antenna?

[SusanS]

I have, in the past, placed ads for free wood for removal of trees. No one wants the oaks.

I am not sure how I would achieve more height?

If I were to use a mounting bracket and a pole? How much more height are you suggesting.

BTWs little scary how you were able to find me so easily. :eek: Did I provide too much information and should I remove it after?

[rabbit73]

BTWs little scary how you were able to find me so easily. Did I provide too much information and should I remove it after?Sorry, Susan; I didn't mean to scare you. You didn't reveal any more than the average poster, except for the satellite photo with the white arrow and the red X.

Some posters will give me or ADTech their address or coordinates in a PM to help us help them.

The tvfool report is designed to protect your identity by not revealing your exact address and shortens coordinates to two places after the decimal point.

[ADTech]

It took me about 4 minutes. I'd delete the overhead photos, though, since they made it possible to be precise so quickly. The typical TVFool plot allows me to usually get to an area about the size of four football fields if there are stations in three directions I can use to triangulate from.

Once those trees loose their leaves for the winter, then reception will probably stabilize until spring. In the photo below, the red box indicates your incoming signal path. If, at a minimum, that clump of trees in the right side of the box could be topped or eliminated, it would create a notch in the treeline and would help tremendously to allow the signals to get to a roof-mounted antenna.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1745&stc=1&d=1446813478

A 10' mast on the chimney should get the antenna about 35' off the ground and I'd consider that the practical limit for an inexpensive install.

When it comes to removing the trees, if they can be safely dropped without hitting anything, it isn't too hard to find wood-burning home owner who would do it in return for the usable wood. Craigslist usually works for that, especially if you don't expect them to do the clean-up of limbs and such. If there's a risk of a falling tree hitting something, then the job is best left to a professional crew who can take the trees down in pieces.

I do feel your pain. I live on the back side of a hill which is about a 200' elevation drop over a half mile and stare into a 75' tree line at the edge of my property. Even with a "stretched" 91XG (11' long) and a pre-amp mounted at 45' above the ground, I still lose three stations every spring off the antenna. They're just starting to come back now as the leaves finish dropping. I've simply hit the limit of what is practical for my location. Only thing left is to call a Realtor and the stations aren't that important!

[rabbit73]

I'd delete the overhead photos, though, since they made it possible to be precise so quickly.I deleted mine.

I agree with ADTech; delete the first image in post #12 which is the Google Earth satellite image.

[SusanS]

Google Earth photos deleted. Thank you!!

I put an ad on craigslist for tree removal. But considering the trees are mighty close to my pool, I tend to doubt anyone is going to take a chance. Not only that, we are in the middle of the Asian Longhorn Beetle fiasco, people can't take the fire wood very far.

http://www.amazon.com/Element-Bowtie-Indoor-Outdoor-Antenna/dp/B0074H3IU6

Look like what you are suggesting?

Chimney or eave?

You guys are AWESOME!!!

[rabbit73]

Look like what you are suggesting?
That's it. I wonder how Jeff Bezos can cut the price and make a profit? Maybe it's because Walmart has it for the same price.

[SusanS]

That's it. I wonder how Jeff Bezos can cut the price and make a profit? Maybe it's because Walmart has it for the same price.

Sadly the small business has to suffer. If I were in a better position financially I would so support the little guy.

Chimney or eave?

[rabbit73]

Chimney or eave?Same answer as before: make a temporary test setup before deciding which location. TV signals can be contrary. The best signals aren't always in the most convenient antenna location. Many times during an antenna setup I have measured a difference of 10 dB between a hot spot and a cold spot on my hand-held signal level meter as I moved the antenna; a make-or-break difference.

I was having trouble receiving CH 42 because my antenna was facing the wrong direction. I went across the street and setup a 2-bay UHF antenna, my meter, and a preamp. I was able to get a nice scan and a stronger signal with the antenna aimed at the transmitter for CH42.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1599&d=1442620525

Interestingly, when I moved the antenna a few feet left or right, without changing the height or azimuth, there was a big difference in the signal strength and scan quality. This is most likely because of the tree line in front of the antenna about 200 ft away which created the non-uniform field.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1716&d=1445196601

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1717&d=1445196636

I had an 8" TV in my car running on an inverter which was able to get CH 42, after connecting the 2-bay UHF antenna and a Channel Master 7777 preamp.

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/CH42found.jpg

A good antenna installer will try different locations if possible. They call it "walking the roof." In your case I guess it would be called "walking the yard."

My point is that because of the trees you have a non-uniform signal field which might require some experimentation, and I'm trying to alert you to that possibility now.

[WIRELESS ENGINEER]

The Xtreme signal antenna HDB8X from Solid Signal at $49.95 is pretty hard to beat for high performance on a budget

The dual 4bay bowtie design allows high gain and wide beamwidth so you can usually get by without expensive rotators

Be sure and feed it with RG6 coax and keep the distance as short as possible

If you need a preamp you can always add one later

And no you can't trust the fabricated mileage and gain claims of most companies