loss of stations on Master bedroom set

[olnick]

My Living room " Visio" tv gets 24 channels with my antenna pointed to Boston from Milford NH. I just finished running the cable (wire approx 35 feet) up to the master bedroom. This has a " Magnavox" I only get 4 channels?? I do have a mast mounted amplifier, this helped in getting the 24 channels downstairs. With the splitter installed -3.5 DB /port (2) I still get the 24 channels on the "Vizio"?
I do have a Winegard DA-1036 distribution amp. Would this help or hinder my attempt at the additional channels for the bedroom??
Are there other better options to help me gain the additional channels I have lost in 35 feet of wire??


Thanks


olnick

[Jake V]

It is quite possible that the splitter gives your bedroom television sufficient power on only 4 channels. Please post your TV Fool report so that we can see if you have enough signal to drive two televisions without an amplifier.

First, I'd check all your connections to the bedroom television.

Then I'd probably try your Winegard DA-1036 distribution amp since you already have it.

Or, I'd probably cry the bedroom television down to the living room and connect it there. If it gets 24 channels then you know that there is signal loss getting to the bedroom television.

[rickbb]

What did the living room get without the pre-amp?

If you are barely getting enough signal with the pre-amp it is possible that 35 feet of cable could be losing enough, or introducing enough noise to drop channels. Check the cable you added, make sure isn't damaged or have a bad connection.

If you switch the TV's does the problem stay in the bedroom or move with that TV? Could be that it just has a crappy tuner.

If it is the bedroom run and the line and connections check out ok maybe the distribution amp would be better than the splitter.

[ADTech]

The Winegard DA-1036 is an old, long discontinued 37 dB gain distribution amp. Using it behind an already amplified antenna system is probably ill-advised, especially when the current system and the reception environment are all completely not disclosed.

35' of coax and a 2-port splitter should amount to about 6 dB of insertion loss. If that is causing your loss of performance in the bedroom, there are other issues involved. :eek:

[olnick]

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8e0319e929e9cc
Thanks guys for all the input...The above link is my radar listing
I have the antenna pointed 162 deg (south to Boston) this is a list of the channels I get downstairs.
5-1,2
7-1,2
9-1,2
11-1,2,3,4
21-1,2,3,4,5,6
27-1,2
60-1,2
66-1,2,3,4

The upstairs list (short)
9-1,2
60-1,2

Question on ADTech's comment? What other issues should I be looking for??

I plan to remove the splitter and connect upstairs directly to the amp output to see what I get.
I'll post results after the test!

Thanks for the help and direction...

Olnick

[olnick]

Test results!
With the direct connect to upstairs I now get 16 channels!
7-1,2
9-1,2
11-1,2,3,4
27-1,2
60-1,2
66-1,2,3,4

Any recommendations after the test?? Is there a better amp than the DA-1036 I have that would do a better job? or is there another simple solution that I have not come across??

The antenna amp I am using is an RCA TVPRAMP1R It is mounted at the antenna.


Thanks

Olnick

[rabbit73]

I have the antenna pointed 142 deg (south to Boston)Boston is 162 degrees magnetic.

What antenna are you using?

Do either of your TVs have a signal strength indicator to find out how weak a signal can be and still be received? Do you still have the Sadelco meter?
http://www.nitehawk.com/k6jey/MiniMaxManual.pdf

I agree with ADTech; something isn't right if you need both amps.
Where do you have the gain control set on the Winegard DA-1036 distribution amp?
http://starkelectronic.com/win1036.htm

WHDH NBC, virtual channel 7.1, real channel 42 is your weakest channel in the series. If you are getting it on the upstairs set, you should be getting the same channels as on the downstairs set.

[olnick]

Thanks for the typo correction of 162 deg.!
Ant is an RCA3036W? (from memory)
No indicators on either tv/ However I do still have the Sadelco meter.
The DA-1036 is NOT currently being used.
7.1 comes and goes upstairs is steady on downstairs.


Thanks

Olnick

[rabbit73]

7.1 comes and goes upstairs is steady on downstairs. Sounds like that difference is caused by the coax loss for upstairs. Try replacing the splitter with a Channel Master 3412 distribution amp, and rescan for channels on the upstairs TV.

However I do still have the Sadelco meter.
Try to make some signal level measurements with it. I have a Sadelco DisplayMax 800 that doesn't measure below -20 dBmV, so I put a preamp before it when measuring weak signals. Sometimes I use a CM3410 which gives me 15 dB gain and sometimes I use a CM7777 (old model) that gives me 25 dB gain. I subtract the gain from the meter reading to get the signal strength.

Most tuners will drop out around -85 dBm which is equal to -36.2 dBmV. Your tvfool report gives signal power in dBm, but your meter reads in dBmV. The conversion factor is 48.8 to convert from one to the other. To make a quick mental conversion I use 50.

My latest Sony KDL32R400A has a diagnostics screen that gives signal strength, SNR, and errors. I made a calibration chart using my Sadelco meter with a variable attenuator and a splitter feeding the TV and the meter at the same time using OTA signals. What's really neat is that the signal strength scale had one dB steps.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1479&d=1440872234

My first Sony KDL22L5000 also gives readings, but over a smaller range.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1480&d=1440872275

The meter on the left is a Sadelco 719E that I bought when I retired in 1988. It is designed to measure analog signals, but is entirely satisfactory to make relative measurements of digital signals. The meter on the right is a DisplayMax 800 that I bought after the conversion from analog to digital.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1481&d=1440873529

[olnick]

Thanks rabbit73!
I just ordered an amp from Amazon.
My Min/Max gave me two readings: ch 9 -2 DB and ch 60 -18 DB I got no other readings at all! I'll re post after I get my amp installed/ up and running

[olnick]

Finally got the Amp today!!
I have lost some channels down stairs now at 18 vs. 24.
However I now have the same 18 up stairs.
About 1/2 of them are so pixilated that they are not watchable!

up and down channels:

7.1,2
9.1,2
21.1,2,3,4,5,6
27.1,2
60.1,2
66.1,2,3,4

DB readings:

CH. reading

6 -17
9 +9.3
11 -8.3
18 -19
19 -19
20 -17
34 -1
42 -14
60 -8.5
61 -12

Any ideas where the other channels went??? Why are they now pixelated???

Thanks

Olnick

[rabbit73]

Finally got the Amp today!!
What amp did you order, a 3412 to replace the splitter, or an amp to put before your Sadelco meter because it doesn't read below -20 dBmV?

Are you still using the RCA TVPRAMP1R at the antenna?

I think you need to tell us what is connected to what for those readings.

[olnick]

I did get a 3412 amp to replace the splitter, this did allow me to get the additional readings on my Min/Max meter.
I still have the TVpramp1R in place at the antenna
The readings are at the upstairs wall plate F connector

I also located my Sadelco 600B digital meter!!! this has a low signal setting that goes to -35 DB. I hope the batteries take a charge? Its been years since I've used it?

Olnick

[olnick]

I got the 600B up and running! (new batteries!)
Now at the entry into the house with only the RCA TVPRAMP1R feeding the Sadelco meter these are the latest results:

Ch Db

2 -31
3 -29
4 -32
5 -30
6 -27
7 -15 to >-35 db
9 +1
11 -18
18 -30
19 -30
20 -28
27 -28
33 -30
34 -14
42 -27
57 -30
58 -30
59 -30
60 -18
61 -22


Is there anything else I should be checking?? The DB readings were NOT steady and changed 2,3,4 DB per reading?
Would it be worth my effort to get up on the roof and check the readings without the TVPRAMP1R in place to see what the antenna is doing on its own? I did manage to get additional ch's after I installed the TVPRAMP1R.

I do appreciate all the help in pointing me in the correct direction....

Thanks

Olnick

[rabbit73]

Those readings are lower than they should be with a preamp; too many in the very weak category. How do the readings compare with the two meters using signals that are strong enough for the Minimax-M?

Those readings do match the ones in post #11 allowing for the gain of the 3412.

Is this the test setup?

Ant > preamp > coax > grounding block > power inserter > meter

Those readings are dBmV, right?

A reading of -32 dBmV is equal to -81 dBm. Tuners drop out about -85 dBm. That's too close to dropout.

The DB readings were NOT steady and changed 2,3,4 DB per reading?
That's normal; OTA signals are constantly changing in strength.

After looking at your tvfool report, something is still wrong. Unless something is blocking the signals on the way to the antenna, you have a problem with the antenna, preamp, coax downlead, or grounding block.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8e0319e929e9cc

unless the report is wrong.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1479&d=1440872234

[olnick]

You are correct in all your statements! As to the test set up.

On Wednesday I plan to pull the antenna down, check all the connections for water entry Etc. I will do a sig strength reading from the antenna down as I replace the pieces back into the circuit.

Thanks

Olnick

[olnick]

Today I did a "baseline" scan of the channels:I now have 30 watchable channels with NO pixelation on any of them!!?????

What is going on?????
Other than taking the signal strength in the last couple of days I have done NOTHING to the system!

2-1,2
4-1,2
5-1,2
7-1,2
9-1,2
11-1,2,3,4
21-1,2,3,4,5,6
60-1,2
62-1,2,3
66-1,2,3,4

With another 90 Deg day I'm not going to do anything with the ant today, I will check the signal strength later on.

Thanks


Olnick

[rabbit73]

What is going on?????
Sounds like an intermittent connection; they are difficult to find.

What are the readings when the reception is that good; are they now higher?

[ADTech]

The -2, -3, etc sub-channels are irrelevant, both for channel counts and for diagnostic purposes. Skip them, focus ONLY on the STATIONS, preferably by call letters.

How about taking a photo of the antenna from behind which will show what it's facing into? A forest, a big tree, point-blank into a building, an open field, etc...

[rabbit73]

The -2, -3, etc sub-channels are irrelevant, both for channel counts and for diagnostic purposes. Skip them, focus ONLY on the STATIONS, preferably by call letters.
Yeah, that would make it easier. He has been using virtual numbers as near as I can tell by guessing, but he has to enter the real RF channel number into his SLMs. Good chance for a mix up there.

Anyway, the dBmV readings in post #14 are way too low for after the preamp, and they agree with the readings in post #11 w/3412 amp added and the other SLM.

[olnick]

I need to agree with the intermittent connection! When I went to check the sig level I had lost 18 channels! The temp had gone from 65 deg this AM to 90 deg when I noticed the missing channels. My first thought was an amp that is temperature sensitive?? However, The expansion/contraction with the temp change I now lean toward an intermittent connection.

I'll just include the call letters now and I do plan to get a picture of the antenna from the rear.

Thanks for hanging in here with me..... I do appreciate it!

Olnick

[olnick]

pix42 from ground
pix43 from N.E looking S.W.
pix44 holding camera as high as possible, yes the antenna is level.
pix45 from roof line showing distance to trees. paces off to approx 75 feet to tree vertical line.

Thanks again

Olnick

[olnick]

Temp down to 85 deg.! I went out and removed the TVPRAMP from the mast I used a M/M connector to connect the wires together. The antenna is still pointing 162 deg.
With a direct connect to downstairs tv I now get one channel

WMUR

Olnick

[rabbit73]

Thanks for the photos and another test without the preamp, giving you just WMUR.

It's the TREES!:eek: The signals can't get through the trees. See attachment 1.

And most of them look like evergreens, so they are in the way all year, unlike deciduous that lose their leaves in the fall.

Heed ADTech's advice about trees:
http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=50790&postcount=3

http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=49326&postcount=2

I see a lot of trees in your area. See attachment 2.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1555&d=1441845071

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1556&d=1441845100

I think your tree problem is worse than Kevin's:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1557&d=1441845492

[ADTech]

I see a trifecta of problems. The antenna is aimed point-blank at:

Trees
Power lines
Power transformer

I do not see a viable solution.

[olnick]

I should have re-read reply #4 from ADTech a few more times!!

35' of coax and a 2-port splitter should amount to about 6 dB of insertion loss. If that is causing your loss of performance in the bedroom, there are other issues involved. :eek:[/QUOTE]

After removing the TVPRAMP1R from the system, I decided to look closer at it! The first hint that it might be the problem was the black mold on the unused "F" connector. When I opened it up I had more surprises! The ground plane where the tab rest also showed corrosion EG bad connections. Then I looked at the foil side of the board, the corrosion at a number of places was unbelievable! The coating was lifted and the traces were green with the white fuzz between contact areas on the components. I soda blasted both sides of the board (sorry no pix) The board came out like brand new. The soda just removed the loose coating along with the corrosion and did not damage or remove the good portion. I then sprayed the board with "HILL" lubricant (a professional equivalent to WD-40) it never dries and displaces water as well.

So the bottom line "There are other issues as well" was right on track!!! Thanks ADTech
I now have 24 viewable stations that I originally had downstairs on both sets with zero drop outs!

Thanks to all in helping resolve this problem.

Olnick

[rabbit73]

Thanks for the report and the photos.

Good detective work!

You used your skills as a mechanic on this problem.

So, the intermittent connection was in the preamp, which is why you got the signals one day and not the next.