East Central IN - Setup Help Needed

[dtjones1987]

Hi all,
I'm about to cut the cord in the next few weeks and need help on what kind of setup I should have.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8e03230d0425a8

Just for reference, the stations that are almost perfectly due north are mostly from Fort Wayne, Indiana. The stations in the southwest quadrant are a mix of a couple of nearby cities (in the green) and then Indianapolis in the yellow/red. In the southeastern quadrant, in the red, are stations from Dayton.

I have an Antenna's Direct DB8 antenna, that I test indoors and it seems to be pretty impressive. I get stations from Fort Wayne and Indy (excluding the VHF channels of course.) If I go over to an other side of the house and face the antenna at a Window I can get some Dayton stations at night too. My primary goal is to get the major stations from Indianapolis & Fort Wayne, as well as virtual channel 23 and 49. Those come in with relatively no effort.

The antenna will be going up approximately 50 feet up. Where I live, there is already a Yagi style VHF antenna up there but it is not hooked up. I'd like to be able to use it to pick up Virtual channels 8 & 13. People in this community are able to receive those channels from similar style VHF antennas that I have.

As far as the run, I live in a house that was converted to an apartment and I live upstairs. The coax cable will have probably around 100 feet to travel (down from the antenna, will ground it, and then will have it come backup half way so it can go around the structure to where it will connect with the TVs. We have Dish Network currently and two TVs hooked up (it's one receiver that goes to two TVs.) I can't tell but I think there is splitter from the Dish before it gets into our house (unless they are hooked directly from the dish, but then I can just put them into a splitter) so we plan to hook the antenna into that. The amount of cable from the splitters to the TV will vary. I'm estimating one to be about 30 feet to one TV and another about 15-20 feet to another.

So the questions are: A.) What kind of pre-amp or other equipment will I need considering the length of cable? B.) Since the antenna is multi-directional, and if I point the DB8 toward Indianapolis, will it be possible for me to receive Dayton stations as well? I'm thinking I should be able to pick up, at least, the Fort Wayne stations as well from the back of the antenna, since I already do indoors.

Just any general advice or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!

[rabbit73]

Welcome to the forum, dtjones1987:
I have an Antenna's Direct DB8 antennaWhich DB8 do you have, the older one with both panels fixed facing in the same direction, or the newer DB8E with two panels that can be aimed in different directions? The ads claim that the DB8E can be used for two different directions, but it doesn't always work.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1377&stc=1&d=1438366357
Where I live, there is already a Yagi style VHF antenna up there but it is not hooked up. I'd like to be able to use it to pick up Virtual channels 8 & 13.That should work. Combine it with your DB8 with a UVSJ and then to a preamp.
The coax cable will have probably around 100 feet to travel (down from the antenna, will ground it, and then will have it come backup half way so it can go around the structure to where it will connect with the TVs.That's a lot of coax. The signal loss for UHF is about 6 dB per 100 ft of RG6. And there is a voltage drop for the preamp power. Coax with a solid copper center conductor has less voltage drop than copper clad steel. You might need to move the grounding block so that the coax run is shorter, but the 10 gauge copper wire from the grounding block to the house electrical system ground is longer.
We have Dish Network currently and two TVs hooked up (it's one receiver that goes to two TVs.) I can't tell but I think there is splitter from the Dish before it gets into our house (unless they are hooked directly from the dish, but then I can just put them into a splitter) so we plan to hook the antenna into that.You need to be a little more certain about your distribution system than that. Power for the preamp can't go through an ordinary splitter.

I wanted to see if there were any strong FM signals that would interfere with TV reception. I did an FMFOOL report based on an estimated location that puts you SW of the center of Dunkirk near a school. I don't see any problem that couldn't be handled by an FM trap, that many preamps have. See attachment 2.
A.) What kind of pre-amp or other equipment will I need considering the length of cable?The preamps to consider are the Antennas Direct Juice, Channel Master 7778, and RCA TVPRAMP1R. The Juice has a low Noise Figure (good), is resistant to overload, has an LTE-4G filter to protect UHF TV from cellular interference, but doesn't have an FM trap so you should add one before the input if needed. The CM does has an FM trap; the switch default is IN. The RCA is OK but has some quality control problems. You could buy 3 for the price of one of the others. Sometimes the combined/separate switch doesn't make good contact with the VHF antenna in the separate position. The workaround is to use a UVSJ and the combined input.
B.) Since the antenna is multi-directional,I wouldn't call the DB8 multidirectional; it's very directional. For best results, a directional antenna should be aimed at the transmitter.
if I point the DB8 toward Indianapolis, will it be possible for me to receive Dayton stations as well? I'm thinking I should be able to pick up, at least, the Fort Wayne stations as well from the back of the antenna, since I already do indoors.Maybe, maybe not; you just have to try it in the roof location. I hope your tuners can add a channel after scan like my Sony, or you will need to rescan a lot.

[ADTech]

nd if I point the DB8 toward Indianapolis, will it be possible for me to receive Dayton stations as well?

No. At nearly a right angle to the antenna's boresight, it's almost as blind as a bat by design. In antenna-speak, it's called a "null". The opposite of a null,a peak, is called a "lobe" with the major lobe being straight ahead. On a standard DB8 (not 'e'), the front reception lobe is most sensitive straight ahead out to +/- 15 to 25° on either side. Reception then drops off rapidly as one goes further off towards the side left or right.

The DB8e has panels that allow it them to be aimed independently. It actually works better than I had initially expected to, but it's not always successful. My observation is that is seems to work best when the stations are separated by about 90° and the corresponding panel adjustment puts each panel's null into the other panel's main lobe. This minimizes destructive interference that can otherwise occur if the same signals were received by both panels then combined out of phase (phase cancellation). Having the panels aimed at different angles also reduces the peak sensitivity of each panel.

Most antennas have minor lobes and nulls off the back as well as the front. The DB8's front to back ratio is in the mid-20 dB range (depending on channel) so aiming the front at the weak signals and the back at the stronger ones often works okay if the relative signal powers and angles work out.

I wouldn't call the DB8 multidirectional; it's very directional.

Hmmm..... No comment..... The boss insists on calling it that so that's what it gets called.

FYI, the Juice is going to be tough to find for the next few months. We had a production delay and replenishment is going to be "later this year". Due to some long lead times for some of the components, I'll just say "sometime 4th quarter this year" for now. There are still a limited number in stock at online retailers who fulfill from one of our large distributors, but when that inventory is depleted, that will be it until the new ones come in.

[Jake V]

Has anyone actually measured the ability of the DB-8e at multiple directions?

My expectation is that since each panel is kind of blind from the side it would do best with one panel pointed exactly 90 degrees different than the other panel (arranged so that the antennas both point outward - like an outside corner - so that the signals do not cross).

[ADTech]

Has anyone actually measured the ability of the DB-8e at multiple directions?

Yes, I have. I did the field trials when the model was in development.

My expectation is that since each panel is kind of blind from the side it would do best with one panel pointed exactly 90 degrees different than the other panel

I think that's what I said in my previous post. ;)

[Jake V]

Yes, I have. I did the field trials when the model was in development.

I think that's what I said in my previous post. ;)

LOL. So you did. Second paragraph. Thanks! :D

[dtjones1987]

Thanks for the reply guys. To answer an earlier question the DB8 I have is the one with the fixed paneling. I plan to post more later today but wanted to give that quick update to the question before I go to work!