no uhf signal

[handaspencer]

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d82303d950c5bda

I am only receiving VHF stations and no UHF stations. I believe I have the winegard 7084p antenna, but I am not positive I just bought it used. I am receiving fox and cbs which are vhf but not getting nbc and abc which are uhf. I am positive I am scanning for tv instead of cable first thing I checked. I have bypassed the amp and hooked directly into the coupler board and still no uhf channels. I believe my problem is the coupler board and I am ready to order a new one. Before I do this is there anything else I need to check?

[rabbit73]

Welcome to the forum, handaspencer:


reception problems after installation
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=13276

video
How To Troubleshoot a Winegard Antenna Cartridge Housing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQke5QYbng

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=cb-8269

http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-CB-8269-Coupler-Platinum-Antennas/dp/B003H2G5ZM

http://www.winegard.com/kbase/uploads/WS-112_LR.pdf
page 10

[ADTech]

Check the UHF phasing lines. Make sure that the are not touching the boom or the metal brackets and that they're properly installed in the cartridge.

[handaspencer]

thanks for all the tips I have reviewed them. I checked the uhf phasing line and it was correctly installed in box and was not touching metal to metal.

[ADTech]

At least two of your UHF stations *should* be strong enough to be picked up with a paper clip.

Make absolutely certain that the tuner is set to the proper mode and try that and see if you get anything on UHF 41 and 42. If the mode is set correctly and you do get those two stations, then you know you have a cabling or antenna issue. If you still get nothing, the results are inconclusive and further testing is recommended before assuming that there is a specific defective part.

[handaspencer]

I do receive those stations when the amp is being used. If I unhook the amp and hook the coax direct to the cartridge board I don't get those stations. That is a good point I am getting uhf 41 and 42 but not uhf 15, 17, 43 and 50. Is this telling me anything? thanks for your help.

[ADTech]

Yes, it's telling us your first post was incomplete as to your actual symptoms. It would be helpful also if you identified your amplifier and also provided a description of how the *complete* antenna system is installed. Include the antenna aiming direction as well as a description of what, if anything, is in the antenna's line of sight.

[handaspencer]

I looked on the amp for a model number and was not able to find that. All I know is the amp is an old winegard amp. My setup is using the old dish network setup on the satellite mount on the peak of my roof with the height around 20ft off the ground. I have no trees or obstruction it's wide open soy bean fields around me. I am using RG6 cable that I am screwing into the amp block on the antenna, that cable runs down the side of my house into a splitter. I then have a 25ft RG6 cable running from the other side of the splitter into the pre-amp side of my power supply for the amp inside the house. I then have a 2ft coax from my amp power supply to the back of the tv. I also have a 2ft coax that goes from the amp on antenna to the cartridge board. I have a rotor on the antenna in which I have rotated in all directions to re-scan and see if I could pick up additional channels. If you need any additional details just let me know, thanks for the help.

[ADTech]

setup is using the old dish network
Did you remove ALL Dish-specific "splitters" or other accessories from the coax?

the amp block on the antenna
????? That doesn't make any sense..

into a splitter
Unless you're careful about what you use, splitters tend to block the operating power from getting to the amp which usually turns them into 30 dB attenuators (which means you won't get weak signals).

[handaspencer]

the amp block is the actual amp my apologies. I have not removed any dish network specific splitters or accessories. But I did put a 50' coax through my window as a direct run from tv to antenna with no splitters as a test for wiring issues, I received the same channels with no changes.

[ADTech]

But I did put a 50' coax through my window as a direct run from tv to antenna with no splitters as a test for wiring issues, I received the same channels with no changes.

You probably need to do that with the preamp at the antenna and its power inserter. Your UHF signals are calculated to be quite weak and a preamp is going to be mandatory. It's going to be a balancing act to select an amp that improves your system noise figure without causing compression or IMD from the strong, local signals.

[handaspencer]

Since I was able to receive the channel 42 which is uhf does this mean my cartridge board is good and I am just having problems pulling in uhf channels at greater distances? If the cartridge board is good, then why was I not able to even get the strong local 42 when I bypassed the amp and went direct to the cartridge board? If I was to buy another amp do you have a recommendation for one that will pull those far uhf channels and not be impacted by the strong local stations?

[ADTech]

I don't know. The data you've presented has been confusing. We still do not know positively which antenna you have or what amplifier is in use.

Details are very important...

[Tim]

Is there any way you could get pictures of each part of your system and a diagram as to how you have everything connected. I can't quite follow your description.

[handaspencer]

If you need any additional pics let me know.

[handaspencer]

I figured out my amp its a winegard HDP269, still not sure model of the antenna.

[handaspencer]

update on my post, I put a new cb-8269 cartridge on and same problem. I am picking up hi-v vhf channels 75 miles away from Detroit but still can't get any uhf channels from the Cleveland area. I just realized they make vhf only pre-amps. The winegard 3700 looks a lot like mine, I understand it's vhf only. I am wondering if this is my problem. I bought all this off craigslist so not exactly sure what i got. What amp should I get for uhf? Can I use 2 amps? If not which uhf/vhf all in one amp should I use?

[rabbit73]

What happens if you try the test suggested by Hans in the Winegard video? Clip the leads of a 4:1 balun transformer directly to the UHF wires of the antenna, and connect the balun to your coax downlead, avoiding the 8269 cartridge (removed) and the preamp. Do you get UHF signals?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQke5QYbng

If you still don't get any UHF channels add a known good preamp.

If you still don't get any UHF try another antenna.

[handaspencer]

I did not originally do this test I just bought a new cartridge box. After putting on new box still did not work so I tried the test according to the video you suggested this evening. I JUST GOT ALL THE UHF CHANNELS!!!!!!! I really need help now, what does this mean? I bought a new box already. I have lost the vhf channels of course but I am pulling over 50 channels from this test without using a rotor. I am getting somewhere but I need more advise, any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[rabbit73]

It sounds like the CB-8269 was not making good contact with the UHF wires when it was in the housing, the board is defective, or it's the wrong board. I've never been impressed with their arrangement for combining VHF and UHF. Why don't you call their customer service tech.

Customer Service – RV, Truck, Marine and Home Antennas

Phone: 800-288-8094

Fax: 800-247-8221

Hours: M-F, 7:30am – 5:30pm CST

http://www.winegard.com/consumer-contacts

[handaspencer]

I put the box back on and bypassed the amp and I am getting 49 channels. When I put the amp back on I lose all my channels except vhf channels. It appears I had a bad cartridge box because I bypassed the amp earlier with the old box and got zero channels. I believe I have a second problem of overpowering my UHF channels with the amps. I have tried the winegard 8275 and the RCA pream1r and same result lose all uhf. Any suggestion on a amp I can use? I have a weak signal on cbs 19.1 which is my favorite so I really need an amp to hold that signal.

[rabbit73]

I don't see virtual channel 19.1 on your TVFOOL report. Is it WOIO on real channel 24?
http://www.rabbitears.info/search.php?request=zip_search&zipcode=44903&miles=60&address=&lat=&lon=&dbtype=dBm&height=

That's a very weak 2Edge signal with a Noise Margin of -15.1 dB with co-channel interference from WSFJ with a NM of -24.6 dB; only 9.5 dB weaker. At least they are not in the same direction.:)

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1315&stc=1&d=1436572414

Interpreting Noise Margin in the TV Fool Report
http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Reception/tvfool_nm.html

-20 to -10dB
These stations are extremely weak to receive and even the best antenna system cannot guarantee reception but they're not quite as hopeless as the Impossibly Weak category. TV Fool usually shows these stations as "2 edge" which means the signal has to refract over 2 hills or mountains. These paths are easily affected by temperature inversions that make for large swings in signal strength. TV Fool is most inaccurate with weak signals and it may be possible to receive these stations. Reception is not likely to be 100% of the time and in general you should not count on these stations for recording. A low noise preamp is required for any chance of reception. A distribution amp should be used if more than 1 TV will be connected to the antenna.A signal must have a NM of 0 or more to be received. You can add the antenna gain to increase the -15.1 NM, that probably doesn't quite give you a positive NM. You can also add the gain of a preamp, but must subtract the Noise Figure of the amp because it adds its own noise that degrades the SNR of your weak signal. But, as you found out, a preamp will be overloaded by your strong signals. The overload creates spurious signals within the preamp itself that harm the weakest signals.

The problem is too much difference between the strength of your strongest signals and your weak desired signal, which is called the Dynamic Range.

If you don't have enough gain for 19.1 without a preamp, but too much with a preamp, it is sometimes possible to find a happy medium by inserting an attenuator between the antenna and the preamp input. The preamp used should have a high resistance to overload.

If that doesn't work, you have to resort to exotic measures (expensive) to even have a chance. An example would be a separate antenna, preamp, and custom bandpass filter for real channel 24. How badly do you want it?

Do you have your antenna aimed at 80 degrees magnetic when trying for 19.1?

You have some strong local FM signals that might interfere with TV reception. You should insert an FM filter in the coax when not using a preamp. If you use a preamp, it might have an internal FM filter. See attachment 2.

[handaspencer]

It is WOIO but I thought it was a positive noise margin because I was picking it up without amp. I can watch it about 20 minutes and then I will lose signal for about 5 minutes then it comes back. I rotate antenna in small increments but don't make a difference. I want it really bad, that's my station for the Cleveland browns.

[rabbit73]

I can watch it about 20 minutes and then I will lose signal for about 5 minutes then it comes back.OTA signals constantly vary in strength, especially 2Edge signals. Does your TV have a signal strength indicator?
I rotate antenna in small increments but don't make a difference.Sometimes the aim for the best signal strength is not the same azimuth for best signal quality. I first learned about that when using an Apex DT502 converter box, which has dual signal bars, one for signal strength and one for signal quality (the inverse of errors). I first aimed my antenna for max signal strength, and then rotated the antenna slightly to the right. The signal strength went down slightly, but the signal quality went way up.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1317&stc=1&d=1436639570

Signal strength is certainly important, but signal quality as defined by SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio) and uncorrected errors is equally, if not more so, important. My Sony KDL22L5000 has a Diagnostics Screen that shows relative signal strength, SNR, and uncorrected errors.

bad signal with picture freeze, SNR below 15 dB, and many errors:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1318&stc=1&d=1436639878

good signal:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1319&stc=1&d=1436639878

FM filters to try:
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/DISTRIBUTED-BY-MCM-FM-88-/33-341
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/FM_band_rejection_filter.html
http://comingsoon.radioshack.com/radioshack-fm-trap/1500024.html#.VaFk5DjbJLM very slow link

[handaspencer]

My TV don't have a signal bar, I do have the RCA amp that has fm trap, vhf input and UHF/vhf input. Could I hook up the amp to vhf only so it would not impact uhf? This would trap my fm also, correct?

[rabbit73]

That might work; try it. The combined/separate switch of the RCA PRAMP1R sometimes doesn't make good contact with the VHF antenna in the separate position.

Also try it in the combined position.

[handaspencer]

I tried it both ways and I am losing everything. I put it back to no amp and all my channels are back. I am thinking I need to put the standalone trap in. That might be enough to clean up woio cbs and me TV. It works 90% of the time but goes in and out some.

[rabbit73]

I tried it both ways and I am losing everything. I put it back to no amp and all my channels are back.Sounds like overload.
I am thinking I need to put the standalone trap in.Yes, try an FM trap.

[handaspencer]

Everything is working great with my antenna, people are amazed with everything I get. I am getting around 50 channels from Cleveland. I would like to expand a little deeper and pick up the following virtual channel numbers below. I know I can pick these channels up because I already have using my amp playing around. My problem is I cant use a amp because I lose all the uhf channels from Cleveland when I hook it up. I need an amp that won't drown out Cleveland channels but will pull in long distance channels listed below. I want this so I can get different football games by regional location on Saturdays and Sundays. My tv fool report is attached at the beginning of the thread, thanks for all your help.

11.1- Detroit
13.1- Detroit
10.1- Columbus

[rabbit73]

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1721&d=1445539611

11.1- Detroit
13.1- Detroit
10.1- Columbus
I don't see an 11.1 from Detroit; I see WTOL CBS from Toledo.
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wtvs
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wtol

WTOL has adjacent channel interference from WMFD on real channel 12 that is 65 dB stronger. Reliable reception is not likely without special equipment like a separate antenna, custom filter, and preamp.

I don't see 13.1 from Detroit; I see WTVG ABC from Toledo.
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wtvs
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wtvg
Same problem as with WTOL.

For 10.1 I see WBNS CBS
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wbns
WBNS is a very weak Tropo signal; not possible except under very unusual weather conditions with a special separate antenna, filter, and preamp