Do I need to go to the roof or is there a fix?

[lspecski]

I went the cheap route with an Antenna,

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00M5RXL5M?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

I installed it in my attic 80% of the time the picture is crystal clear and perfect and the rest of the time it is either slightly or heavily pixelated.

Here is the signal report, I am about 29 miles from the towers in Philadelphia and I am mainly concerned about ABC, CBS, NBC Fox, and PBS. I get the NJ PBS so I do not need the Philly PBS. My main problems seem to come from ABC and CBS. My antenna is in the attic estimated at about 25 feet. We have some heavy trees and the antenna is at or slightly below the tree-line.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3df1f0d475eb3aeb

I tried adding an RCA amplifier but my signal cuts out completely when I add it. One TV run is about 25 feet and the other is about 75 feet. The picture is similar on both TVs.

Based on the signal report, I was expecting no issues. Do you think I have to go to the rooftop or should I try to find better spots in the attc? Should an amplifier help, I can't understand why my picture cuts out when I add an amplifier unless it is defective. Any help would be appreciated.

[Jake V]

What direction is your antenna aimed at? Your strongest stations are all at 222 degrees on a compass (roughly southwest). CBS and ABC and some of your weaker stations are at 316 degrees (roughly northwest) and are 1 and 2 edge. If you have not already tried, try pointing your antenna northwest, towards the weaker stations. And try several locations in your attic, "looking" not through the roofing materials but "looking" through the siding if possible.

Attics on average lose roughly half the signal. Attics in houses with a metal wrap or in a stucco house can loose much more of the signal.

[lspecski]

I get the stations on 222 fine unfortunately the major networks are at 316. I am currently pointed at 304, I don't fully understand True north versus magnetic north. if I point the antenna at around 340/350, I can avoid the stucco which is only on the front of the house. Also, I put the antenna as high as possible in the attic which means it is near the peak of the roof, is it better for it to be 5 feet lower. I believe the house is wrapped with Tyvec wrap.

What direction is your antenna aimed at? Your strongest stations are all at 222 degrees on a compass (roughly southwest). CBS and ABC and some of your weaker stations are at 316 degrees (roughly northwest) and are 1 and 2 edge. If you have not already tried, try pointing your antenna northwest, towards the weaker stations. And try several locations in your attic, "looking" not through the roofing materials but "looking" through the siding if possible.

Attics on average lose roughly half the signal. Attics in houses with a metal wrap or in a stucco house can loose much more of the signal.

[Jake V]

The "Magnetic" readings (last column in the TV Fool Report) correspond to what you will see on a compass. 304 is probably close enough, but you can try to better aim at 316.

You can also try different spots in the attic. If possible, stay as far away from anything metal (heating ducts, wiring, plumbing and exhaust pipe). You might just find a sweet spot. If that doesn't work, you may need to move it outside or get a better antenna.

[Tower Guy]

The antenna that you bought is not designed for channels 2-6. WPVI is on channel 6. You need a large conventional antenna. Once you have that you can try the attic with the amp that you have. If it doesn't work then you must go to the roof.

[lspecski]

I live in a Philadelphia suburb around 29 miles from the tower. Here is the signal report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d82309f356ad8c6

I get all of the stations I wan't except channel 5 and channel 12 (I don't need 12 because I also get NJ PBS fine). I understand both of those stations are VHF-Lo. They come in occasionally by almost always pixelated. I was informed previously on this site that my antenna really isn't the right antenna for VHF.

Is there a cheap solution. I don't want to buy and set up a second antenna and I prefer not to do a rooftop installation. As a simple fix could Rabbit Ears with a diplexer.

My cord cutting is almost complete. Channel 6 and the NFL network are the only things I am missing with Hulu, Sling TV, and Netflix.

[Billiam]

I live in a Philadelphia suburb around 29 miles from the tower. Here is the signal report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d82309f356ad8c6

I get all of the stations I wan't except channel 5 and channel 12 (I don't need 12 because I also get NJ PBS fine). I understand both of those stations are VHF-Lo. They come in occasionally by almost always pixelated. I was informed previously on this site that my antenna really isn't the right antenna for VHF.

Is there a cheap solution. I don't want to buy and set up a second antenna and I prefer not to do a rooftop installation. As a simple fix could Rabbit Ears with a diplexer.

My cord cutting is almost complete. Channel 6 and the NFL network are the only things I am missing with Hulu, Sling TV, and Netflix.

What antenna are you using right now? You have a number of VHF Lo stations on that list and you will definitely need an all channel antenna to get them.

Can't find Ch. 5 though. What are the call letters?

[lspecski]

What antenna are you using right now? You have a number of VHF Lo stations on that list and you will definitely need an all channel antenna to get them.

Can't find Ch. 5 though. What are the call letters?

Sorry, it was a typo it is channel 6, WPVI. This is the Antenna.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00M5RXL5M?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

All I really need/want is 3, 6, 10, 17, 29. All are great except 6.

Would good old-fashioned rabbit ears pointed in the right direction do the trick for channel 6?

[Billiam]

Is the Ch. 3 you mention KYW virtual Ch. 3 or a real Ch. 3?

Looks like you mean KYW. All of the channels you watch are UHF except for WPVI. Not sure about an indoor antenna that can pick that up. You may have to find an outdoor antenna for this.

[lspecski]

Is the Ch. 3 you mention KYW virtual Ch. 3 or a real Ch. 3?

Looks like you mean KYW. All of the channels you watch are UHF except for WPVI. Not sure about an indoor antenna that can pick that up. You may have to find an outdoor antenna for this.

Channel 3 is CBS, KYW. I do not have any reception issues. Would mind explaining to me how you read the report to know than an indoor antenna won't work. When I decided on the antenna the report showed green and yellow which by the TV guide suggested that an indoor attic antenna would work.

[Billiam]

Channel 3 is CBS, KYW. I do not have any reception issues. Would mind explaining to me how you read the report to know than an indoor antenna won't work. When I decided on the antenna the report showed green and yellow which by the TV guide suggested that an indoor attic antenna would work.

Yep. Indoor antennas and in fact most antennas being made right now either don't have the ability to pick up VHF Lo channels or if they can, don't have very much gain at all.

Perhaps one of those disc shape antennas (look like a flying saucer) from Winegard or Channel Master might work. I have one from Antennacraft that can be used inside or outside and it has a built in pre amp and that might pick it up. But finding one is going to be tough now that Antennacraft is out of business.

[Billiam]

I just took a look at both the Winegard and Channel Master websites. No indoor only antennas can pick up VHF Lo channels. Only VHF Hi and UHF.

See if you can find one of these somewhere. Even though Antennacraft is now out of business there still may be a few kicking around at some online retailers or perhaps in a store in Philly. Using something like this is your best bet.

http://antennacraft.net/Antennas/AntennasAmplified.html

Also, call any Radio Shack stores that might still be left and open in your area to see if they have any antennas left in stock. They may have something that will work and won't cost much. They carried Antennacraft which was their store brand of TV antennas.

[lspecski]

I just took a look at both the Winegard and Channel Master websites. No indoor only antennas can pick up VHF Lo channels. Only VHF Hi and UHF.

See if you can find one of these somewhere. Even though Antennacraft is now out of business there still may be a few kicking around at some online retailers or perhaps in a store in Philly. Using something like this is your best bet.

http://antennacraft.net/Antennas/AntennasAmplified.html

Also, call any Radio Shack stores that might still be left and open in your area to see if they have any antennas left in stock. They may have something that will work and won't cost much. They carried Antennacraft which was their store brand of TV antennas.

Thanks for your help.

[Billiam]

Thanks for your help.

You're welcome. It's getting tougher and tougher to find a antenna to receive VHF lo signals.

[mikelessard]

The Terk LOGTVA and HDTVA will get VHF-Lo -- http://www.terk.com/indoor-antennas/

[ADTech]

The Terk LOGTVA and HDTVA will get VHF-Lo -- http://www.terk.com/indoor-antennas/

Warning!

Just because they say that, doesn't actually mean the antenna can deliver. Both models noted include a simple set of rabbit ears but the listings fail to say how long they actually are, information that would provide a clue as to how well the lengths can be adjusted to actually resonates at low-VHF frequencies.

I've tested several Terks in the last two years. One of their outdoor antenna performed reasonably well while the other was so poor it would have been an embarrassment to call it an antenna. Now, neither supported VHF-low so neither would be considered for that role, but I wanted to caution you about "specifications" that are so incomplete as to be useless.

[rabbit73]

It is the real channel number, not the virtual number, on your tvfool report that determines what antenna is needed.

VHF-Low: Real channels 2-6
VHF-High: Real channels 7-13
UHF: Real channels 14-51

The frequency of Real channel 6 is 82 to 88 MHz; center frequency 85 MHz.

A simple folded dipole antenna for channel 6 can be made from 300 ohm twin lead. Its length can be determined by formula:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1184&stc=1&d=1433804210

5540/85 = 65.2 inches (rabbit ears would need to be the same length, and horizontal)

If you have trouble finding 300 ohm twin lead, you can use heavy gauge solid copper wire, bare or insulated. Support it at the center; the ends are sensitive to being touched by other objects. See attachment 2.

The noise level on VHF-Low is high. It might interfere with the reception of channel 6.

You can combine it with a UVSJ, UHF/VHF Separator Joiner.
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/Filters-Diplexers.pdf
http://www.3starinc.com/uvsj_uhf_vhf_tv_channel_separator_joiner.html
http://mjsales.net/products/tru-spec-uvsj-uhf-vhf-band-separator-combiner?variant=1198505857
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=zuvsj

UHF antenna > coax > control box >
\
UVSJ > TV
/
CH6 folded dipole antenna > coax >

If it doesn't work, come back and let us know. The only other ABC I see is WABC on real channel 7. The curvature of the earth starts to interfere with TV signals at 70 miles.

[lspecski]

Can I get suggestions on 2-3 antenna options to get WPVI in Philadelphia. It is VHF-Low.

Here is my report.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8230d475eb3aeb

[Billiam]

For VHF you can use something like the Antennacraft CS600 which can still be found in a couple of places even though Antennacraft is now out of business. An all channel option would be something like the Channel Master 5016, Channel Master Advantage 45 or maybe the 60 for more gain.

Unfortunately there are few VHF lo options left and no antennas that cater only to Ch.2 through 6. Unless you can find a CS600 you will likely need an all channel antenna.

[rabbit73]

Summit Source still has some. Combine with your present antenna with a UVSJ like the code diagram in post #17.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AntennaCraft-CS600-Terrestrial-Digital-HDTV-VHF-FM-TV-Antenna-Suburban-10-ELMTS-/221387209204
http://www.summitsource.com/antennacraft-cs600-terrestrial-digital-hdtv-vhffm-antenna-suburban-hdtv-electronic-elements-directional-urban-aerial-series-local-digital-signal-reception-zone-part-cs600-p-6310.html

Spec sheet for Antennacraft CS600:
http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/CS600.pdf

Disclaimer: I can't guarantee this will work, but it's worth a try. Antennas don't always survive shipping; about half of the antennas that I have ordered arrived damaged. Some sellers charge way too much for shipping. I wouldn't mind paying extra for shipping if they packed it carefully, but don't count on it.

If you can't get one from them, you are left with a custom made (expensive) antenna for channel 6, a DIY like the folded dipole I suggested, or an Hourglass Loop antenna designed by holl_ands, who is an RF engineer that does computer design of antennas.

The CS600 has 2.3 dB gain on 6. You could get that much gain from a DIY folded dipole antenna with an added reflector element, which is 5% longer than the dipole.
http://users.wfu.edu/matthews/misc/dipole.html

DIY Hourglass Loop for CH 6:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/lovhfhourglassloopnorefl
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/ch2ch3hourglassloopreflrods

Custom antenna:
http://www.abilityhdtv.com/product-list.php?pg1-cid49.html

[lspecski]

Thanks for your help so far. I hope this makes sense to the people on the forum because it makes no sense to me. First, here is my report again:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d82309f356ad8c6

So I took the advice of Rabbit73 and built a dipole antenna which immediately brought me my most problematic channels, 6 and 12. Running only that antenna channel 6 and 12 were picked up on both of my TVs, one is a 15 foot run and is an old model Olevia now defunct. The second TV, about a 75-100 ft cable run is a Samsung Plasma. I am getting contradictory things happening on both TVs. On the Olevia, I get everything except Virtual channel 10 and 29 (Real Channels 34 and 42) including the VHF-Low channels. The TV provides me the signal strength and they are coming in at between 40 and 50%. On the Samsung. I am receiving everything. The only issue is that Channel 6 which was fine without combining the UHF/VHF signals is now very distorted, but 10 and 29 are perfect but I cant pick them up on my Olevia TV. I can only assume that this has to do with the diplexer I am using. It is a satellite diplexer. The part that has me confused is that if it was the diplexer wouldn't it cause the same issues with both TV's.

Last thing, I added an amplifier to the Dipole antenna, but that only made matters worse. My priority right now is to get Channel 6 on the Samsung. The second TV is less used and we stream more from there.

Any help is appreciated.

[rabbit73]

So I took the advice of Rabbit73 and built a dipole antenna which immediately brought me my most problematic channels, 6 and 12. Running only that antenna channel 6 and 12 were picked up on both of my TVsGlad to hear that the dipole worked. I didn't expect 12 also.
The only issue is that Channel 6 which was fine without combining the UHF/VHF signals is now very distorted, but 10 and 29 are perfect but I cant pick them up on my Olevia TV.The problem does seem to be in the combining.
I can only assume that this has to do with the diplexer I am using. It is a satellite diplexer.Tell us more about the diplexer. What does it say on it? Can you show us a photo?

[rabbit73]

Is this your setup now?



AmzAnt > coax > ControlBox > 15 ft coax > Olevia
\ UHF /
UVSJ diplexer > splitter >
/ VHF \
CH 6 Dipole Antenna > coax > 75-100 ft coax > Samsung

Your new TVFOOL report shows stronger signals. You could be overloading the preamp in the Amazon antenna and the tuner in the Olevia TV. The extra length of coax for the Samsung acts like an attenuator at 6 dB per 100 ft for UHF.

I don't know the signal attenuation for the attic location, but outside your strongest signal has a Noise Margin of 69.9 dB even before adding Amazon antenna gain and its preamp gain of 36 dB.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HDTV-Outdoor-Amplified-Antenna-HD-TV-36dB-Rotor-Remote-360-UHF-VHF-FM-150-Miles-/310464020303
http://www.ebay.com/itm/150MILES-OUTDOOR-TV-ANTENNA-MOTORIZED-AMPLIFIED-HDTV-HIGH-GAIN-36dB-UHF-VHF-/110940583801?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d492f779

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1209&stc=1&d=1434814015

Interpreting Noise Margin in the TV Fool Report
http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Reception/tvfool_nm.html

[lspecski]

Yes that is the setup. The splitter though is a powered unit that came with the Amazon Antenna.

This was my comment on the diplexer question I posted it in the wrong spot.

It's actually a Dish Network triplexer, I have the dipole on the first spot and I've tried the other antenna on the 2nd and third spot.

http://pimages.solidsignal.com/ES175284_1_zoom.bmp

I also tries a Radio Shack Splitter combiner with less luck. Radio Shack also has a UHF/VHS diplexer that I was going to try. Good to see Radio Shack back in business.

http://comingsoon.radioshack.com/vhf...l#.VYV_AmRViko

[lspecski]

Sorry, I was incorrect, the set up that worked best so far was having the Amazon antenna go through through the powered splitter box that came with the Antenna, I added the diplexer after that and have made a straight run to the TV. I haven't introduced a splitter to the 2 TVs just yet.

[rabbit73]

It's actually a Dish Network triplexer, I have the dipole on the first spot and I've tried the other antenna on the 2nd and third spot.That's the wrong diplexer. You need the Radio Shack Model: 15-2586 Catalog #: 1502586
http://comingsoon.radioshack.com/vhf-uhf-gold-plated-splitter-combiner/1502586.html#.VYWIkjjbLrc
or this:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=zuvsj
http://www.3starinc.com/uvsj_uhf_vhf_tv_channel_separator_joiner.html
http://mjsales.net/products/tru-spec-uvsj-uhf-vhf-band-separator-combiner?variant=1198505857 passes power on VHF side

All UVSJs are diplexers, but not all diplexers are UVSJs. The term diplexer is broader.
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/Filters-Diplexers.pdf
Notice that the Holland MODEL DPD2 lumps together all TV signals from VHF/UHF, CATV 40 - 806 MHz.

A satellite diplexer combines VHF and UHF TV signals, instead of keeping them from interfering with each other as in a UVSJ.

[lspecski]

I am fortunate to still have a local Radio Shack, I'll let you know later to today. Does it matter if the diplexer goes before the Amazon powered box or after. If I go after, I would have only one Output from the Amazon Able antenna and then adda splitter after the diplexer to go out to both TVs. I am taking it one step at a time though, trying to get all channels on both TVs before adding a splitter to the mix.

[rabbit73]

Does it matter if the diplexer goes before the Amazon powered box or after.Yes, do it like my diagram in post 23. If the UVSJ diplexer went between the Amazon antenna and its power control box, you would need a special power passing UVSJ diplexer and you would still have only one output for a TV, so you would still need a splitter.

Some UVSJs pass DC power on the VHF side, and some pass DC power on the UHF side for a preamp. It so happens that the RS UVSJ passes power on the UHF side, but I still think you should put the UVSJ diplexer AFTER the Amazon power control box.If I go after, I would have only one Output from the Amazon Able antenna powered boxThat's all you need for the diplexer UHF input.
then add a splitter after the diplexer to go out to both TVs.That's the correct way to do it.

If your 150 mile Antenna control box looks like the one in the attachments, then it does have two outputs. I still suggest you do it like the diagram in post #23, but you can try it at you own risk like this:


Amazon Ant > coax > 15 ft coax > Olevia
\ UHF DC pass /
RS UVSJ diplexer > control box >
/ VHF (15-2586) \
CH6 Dipole > coax > 75-100 ft coax > Samsung

If you can't find a Radio Shack store that has one, there are some 15-2586s on ebay; check the model number and age. Antennas Direct also sells a UHF/VHF diplexer that passes DC power on the UHF side:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/UHF-VHF-Antenna-Combiners.html

[lspecski]

Rabbit73, your design in post 23 works for the Olevia without the splitter. The Olevia gives me signal strength of between 70-80% for Channel 6when I added the splitter, it dropped to 44%. On the Samsung which is the longer cable run, I am getting all of the channels perfectly except channel 6.

I don't know if it makes a difference, but we are having a lot of rain today and I assume that this can be affecting the signal.

I an only think that it is still an issue of the diplexer. I bought the Radio Shack that has power passing on the UHF side. I tried the diplexer before the control box to take away the issue of the splitter, but the signal for channel 6 dropped to 40% on the Olevia and couldn't be picked up at all on the Samsung.

On another post, I was given the following advice on the combining of signals "If you want to combine a 7-69 antenna with a 2-6 antenna, you need the ZHLSJ, not the ZUVSJ.

If you use the UVSJ, then you end up with a device that combines 2-13 on the VHF port with channels 14-up on the UHF port which is not what you said you needed."

[lspecski]

Update, all is good, Rabbit 73, your plan worked with the Radio Shack Diplexer and the splitter. With a bit of movement of the Antenna, I am getting a 78% signal. The problem with my Samsung was that I had a bad connection with my coaxial cable which was ok transmitting the UHF signal but wouldn't transmit the VHF signal.

My only remaining issue but a very small deal is that I am getting WHYY PBS on the Olevia with a 68% signal, but not getting anything on the Samsung. But I get an alternate PBS out of NJ. I am going to buy a better splitter and may take the advice on a different combiner, but as of now, all is good.

Your idea to build the diplexer saved everything and I can't believe how simple it was.

[rabbit73]

Update, all is good, Rabbit 73, your plan worked with the Radio Shack Diplexer and the splitter. With a bit of movement of the Antenna, I am getting a 78% signal.Thank you for the good news; you made my day.
The problem with my Samsung was that I had a bad connection with my coaxial cable which was ok transmitting the UHF signal but wouldn't transmit the VHF signal.I have seen that happen with cable signals. The low cable channels were very weak, but the high channels were OK. The coax shield was not making good contact at the connector. The low frequency signals could not jump the gap, but the high frequency signals could, because there was enough capacitance at the gap to pass them with little loss.
My only remaining issue but a very small deal is that I am getting WHYY PBS on the Olevia with a 68% signal, but not getting anything on the Samsung.If you want 12 a little better, you can make a folded dipole for 12 and combine it with the folded dipole for 6 using a HLSJ. Then use a UVSJ to combine them with the UHF signals.

Channel 12, 204 to 210 MHz, center frequency 207 MHz.
5540/207 = 26.8 inches


AmzAnt > coax > ControlBox > 15 ft coax > Olevia
\ UHF /
Channel 12 Antenna > UVSJ > splitter >
\ H / VHF \
HLSJ > 75-100 ft coax > Samsung
/ L
Channel 6 Antenna >

[mikelessard]

The Terk has the same exact rabbit ears our TVs had in the 60s/70s when we were watching analog VHF-Lo (and those worked). The instructions tell you to extend them halfway for VHF-Hi which I did at our location. So my best educated guess says is it does do VHF-Lo.