On the edge in Colorado

[RockyMtnRuss]

My neighbor and I are researching cutting the cord with Dish. We live next to each other in the foothills north of Denver. I'd like some advice on which antenna/pre-amps we should try. I've included a link to my TV Fool report.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3df1f013decdd4fc

The report is for my house. My neighbor's house is about 200 feet away and 30 feet higher than my house. We live on the south side of a slope, way up high, but there are some ridges to our south where the broadcast antennas are located, 40 miles away.

We're really only interested in getting NBC, ABC, and PBS. CBS would be nice, but it's weaker, and we can stream that one if needed.

We've already been experimenting a bit... He bought a Winegard HD-7694P antenna (no amp) and we hooked it up on a 4 foot pole above the ground at his house. Without more than a general pointing, he got 11 stations, all very clear without any tiling. He got KCDO, GRIT, KMRA, V-Me, Create (PBS), KUSA, Justice, KSBS, KBDI, KBDI+, KBDI WB. Everything he's looking for except the ABC station KMGH.

We then moved the antenna to my house and again we had the antenna about 4 feet above the ground. Used his phone to point it to 170 degrees true. I was able to pick up 18 channnels, but most were tiling. I didn't get KUSA (NBC) but did get KMGH (ABC) and some weaker stations like KWGN.

We're basically looking for advice on antenna selection (he can return the one he bought) and if we should use a specific pre-amp. I'd estimate running about 150 feet of cable. We get a lot of wind up here, so anything we mount needs to be very sturdy.

I'm hoping you guys can give me some expert advice soon. It has taken 9 days after my activation before I got authorization to post messages. Thanks.

Russ

[rabbit73]

Welcome to the forum, Russ:

You don't have many channels available because of the terrain, but based on your test results, your chances are good for the 3 you want.

The 3 channels that you want are all on VHF-High. There aren't many antennas left for that band. The most suitable would be the Antennacraft Y10-7-13, which is in short supply.
http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/Y10-7-13.pdf

Summit source had some, but they are gone.

If you also want some UHF channels (real channels 14-51), then you would need a VHF/UHF combo antenna, instead of the Y10-7-13.

There are some VHF/UHF combo antennas available with about the same VHF gain as the Y10-7-13, but they are bigger and more expensive, like the Winegard HD7698P.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd7698p
http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HD7698P-HDTV-High-Antenna/dp/B001DFTGRY
specs
http://www.starkelectronic.com/hd7698p.pdf

The report is for my house. My neighbor's house is about 200 feet away and 30 feet higher than my house.That extra 30 feet seems to make a difference. Maybe you can mount your antenna higher.

Using the short coordinates on your tvfool report, I don't see any strong FM signals that might cause interference to your TV signals. See the attachment.

Yes, you will need a preamp mounted at the antenna, especially with that long coax run. The 150 feet would cause a loss at UHF of about 9 dB, but much less for VHF. I suggest an Antennas Direct Juice or a Channel Master 7777.
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/JUICE.html
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=cm-7777

He bought a Winegard HD-7694P antenna.....We're basically looking for advice on antenna selection (he can return the one he bought)If possible, it might be interesting to try the 7694 with a preamp before returning it.
http://www.skywalker.com/catalog/Manuals/WIN1051.pdf

RG6 coax comes with a solid copper or copper clad steel center conductor. The signal loss for both is about the same, but the DC voltage loss for the preamp is less with solid copper. I not sure how much difference it would make for 150 feet.

The coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike.

Please let us know the results of your tests on this same thread.

[RockyMtnRuss]

Rabbit:

Thanks for your detailed analysis. That 7698P is about 14 feet long... wow! Regarding the pre-amp, I can reduce the amount of cable to about 50 feet (pre-amp to DVR) and then try to go wireless for the other tvs. Would that make a difference in the pre-amp choice?

[rabbit73]

Would that make a difference in the pre-amp choice?

Probably not, because it not only compensate for the cable loss, it improves the system noise figure which helps the weakest signals. Some DVRs have tuners that aren't as good as in TVs. Testing will tell you. My advice is based on my experience and what you tell me. I can't give you a guarantee that it will work.

http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota

scroll down to, and click on file 10:
COMPARE System Noise Figures
With and Without Preamps

which should take you here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota?p=9&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=1&s=0&z=4

If you are just looking for a less expensive preamp, consider the RCA TVPRAMP1R.

That 7698P is about 14 feet long... wow!Yeah, that is why I suggested trying the 7694 with a preamp. Weak signals require antennas with a lot of gain. Antennas with a lot of gain are BIG. VHF antennas are bigger than UHF antennas. There is no substitute for antenna gain. A preamp will not make up for an antenna that doesn't have enough gain. If the signal coming out of the antenna terminals isn't good enough, the preamp can't create it. GIGO

There is an antenna between the two, the 7697:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd7697p

A small antenna mounted high can often outperform a big antenna mounted low. That is especially true in your case, because your house is lower.

You not only need an antenna with enough gain, you must also put it where the signals are.

Your tvfool report is only a computer simulation; I put more stock in your initial tests. You need to make some more tests.

The way I see it for your location: You have the choice of mounting a small antenna up high, or a big antenna down low.

Your desired signals are 2Edge, which means less reliable reception. You need all the help you can get, especially with a DVR. Dropouts and pixilation are petty irritating during a recording.

Look at the path the PBS KBDI CH 13 signal must travel. The transmitter is at the left, and your location is at the right:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1102&stc=1&d=1432303481

[Tower Guy]

In order to figure out the best advice I reverse engineered your location. Rabbit73 is right, you need the biggest VHF antenna possible which is the HD7698P. You have little hope receiving the UHF channels from Denver.

The real problem is that the angle up to the hill where the signal is refracted is 21.8 degrees. The best way to accommodate that is to mount the antenna close to the ground with nothing in the way nor in front of it. The exact height will depend on the channel and the amount of downslope in front of the antenna. I'd try heights from 2 feet up to 10 feet.

[rabbit73]

Tower Guy:

Thanks for checking my work. I tried to derive his location from his description and his report, but I didn't have much confidence in the results because of the terrain and the transmitter distances. I would need his exact coordinates by PM to do better.

I hadn't considered the possibility of ground bounce. It might work.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/tag/uhf/page/5/

[Tower Guy]

[B]

I hadn't considered the possibility of ground bounce. It might work.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/tag/uhf/page/5/

That brought back memories. I helped Pete with that project.

[Billiam]

Fracarro is marketing a couple of VHF only antennas in this country. They can be purchased here:

http://www.abilityhdtv.com/product-info.php?blv6f_vhf_hi_CH7_13_13db_high_gain_yagi_antenna-pid65.html

[RockyMtnRuss]

Ok everyone... thanks for all of the expert advice. Testing with the new antenna and pre-amp should begin on Monday. I'll post the results. Thanks again.