Catskill NY area

[Jimmcg]

I have a friend that has a vacation house in the area. They were told that the only way to get TV was to get Dish, Direct etc. Looking around I saw that while most houses had a DTH setup, but a few had OTA antennas. I brought up a POS indoor VHF/UHF with a built in amp (bought it on ebay for $20 or $25 dollars) and a low end field spectrum. Low and behold when I pointed it to the NW I had carriers pop up on the Spec An. I connected it to the TV and did a search. I was picking up a few of the channels but not all that I should. I opened the window and placed it between the window and screen. I was picking up more (Possible Low-E glass blocking it). I then went to the second floor and placed it in the window there and I was now getting more. All sounds good except that the coax is running across the floor and up the stairs, it was 5 deg outside so leaving the window cracked in the winter is not ideal, and it is after all an indoor antenna. I am looking for a bit more permanent outdoor install for them. Now here is the rub. They get a lot of snow, high winds, and occasional ice storms, plus my friend breaks out in a sweat on a 6 foot ladder. I would like to keep the antenna as small as possible, ground level would be nice in the event that I need to install a preamp and it fails, he can replace it fairly easily (see 6' ladder), but not a deal killer. It will be going to one TV now and possibly a second one in the future. I can get now channels 6 thru 34 (in the list) now and I was hoping to add ch 13 if possible, but again not a deal breaker

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3df1f0696f961e0c

Sorry to be so long winded

Thanks for you time

Jim

[rabbit73]

Welcome to the forum, Jim:

You sound like a tech type, so your friend is lucky to have your help. With signals that miserable he needs it.

The terrain between the transmitters and his location is causing interference to the signals, hence the 2Edge designation. Can you run a few more exact address (coordinates for greatest accuracy; maybe using the interactive map feature of tvfool that allows you to move the cursor to the antenna location) reports at different heights to see if it would make a difference?

Real channel 13 is the worst; here is its terrain profile. If you click on the callsign in the report, the profile comes up. The transmitter is at the left and his location is at the right:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=978&stc=1&d=1429231731

I brought up a POS indoor VHF/UHF with a built in amp (bought it on ebay for $20 or $25 dollars) and a low end field spectrum. Low and behold when I pointed it to the NW I had carriers pop up on the Spec An. I connected it to the TV and did a search. I was picking up a few of the channels but not all that I should.Using a SA is a good way to hunt for available channels, but the tuner isn't going to pick them up unless the signal is far enough above the noise floor to give a SNR above 15 dB.
I opened the window and placed it between the window and screen. I was picking up more (Possible Low-E glass blocking it).The transparent metallic coating on Low-E glass can definitely attenuate a signal, as can a metal screen.

If your friend has a 2nd floor window that faces the transmitters at 69 degrees magnetic, maybe an antenna inside that window would avoid the weather, ladder, and preamp replacement problems. Otherwise, it's attic or preferably outside.
I would like to keep the antenna as small as possible, ground level would be nice in the event that I need to install a preamp and it fails, he can replace it fairly easily (see 6' ladder), but not a deal killer.His signals are in all 3 TV bands: 6 is VHF-low, 13 is VHF-high, and the rest are UHF, so small and near the ground is not realistic because a high gain antenna for weak 2Edge signals is large. Since 6 is the strongest, maybe you can get away with a VHF-high/UHF combo antenna and a preamp.

If money is no object, a tilt up mast would get the antenna down for repair, but it wouldn't be fun in the winter weather you have had.

If you mount the antenna outside, the coax should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge.

[Jimmcg]

Thanks for getting back so quickly. The plot I posted was done with the antenna at 0 feet AGL (or I guess null if you dont enter a height) This one is set at 16' AGL. Approx height of where the antenna is now. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3df1f0c07554cdfd
I am not sure if a mast is an option. Not my house. Placing an antenna in the window for now works, but like I said, the window cant be closed all the way and in the winter it's not ideal. I think it started at 0 degrees out and warmed up to 7 that day that I did this http://forum.tvfool.com/images/smilies/eek.gif, plus the window is on the opposite side of the house to where the set lives. I ran about 60' of Belden 1855 (with a loss at 1GHz of .4db/100') across the floor and up the stairs to the window. Belden 1694 (RG-6) is a bit better at .24/100 which is what will be the final type of cabling run. I used the 1855 because its easier to deal with and lighter for experimenting. The antenna in the window would still be exposed to the elements so it would need to be an outdoor version (they are pulling the one I left there out of the window when they leave).
I am suppose to go up there this weekend to help him repair his deck so I might grab a CM-3010 that I have. It doesn't have the built-in pre-amp, but I do have a stand alone amp with variable gain that I can piggy back it on the antenna and try that to see what I get. Like we say at work "Science Fair Project". Not looking at this as the "end all" but more of a "Lets see what this does".
He does have an attic so I might try that, but they do have fairly thick walls and I am not sure if the insulation is foil backed. Again, science fair project.
Grounding is a must around his place. As you drive through the area, there are many farms. All the barns have multiple lightning rods on the roof with some of the rods blown to pieces from strikes.
One unknown factor that hasn't reared yet is the foliage. That's going to be the great unknown and could skew everything

[rabbit73]

Thanks for doing another tvfool report at 16 ft. If you don't enter a number, there is a default that is IIRC about 10 ft. Not much difference between the two, but it was worth a try.
Placing an antenna in the window for now works, but like I said, the window cant be closed all the way and in the winter it's not ideal.Understood. What I had in mind was something like an antenna inside a closed window that faces NE in an unused spare bedroom on the 2nd floor that doesn't have low-e glass or a metal screen.

It also might be possible to mount an antenna just outside the closed window and bring the coax in using a long F81 coupler. If you can't find a very long F81 coupler to go through the frame, you could use the standard 1 inch length to go thru a piece of Lexan polycarbonate glazing that replaces the glass in the window.
I ran about 60' of Belden 1855 (with a loss at 1GHz of .4db/100') across the floor and up the stairs to the window. Belden 1694 (RG-6) is a bit better at .24/100 which is what will be the final type of cabling run.Belden 1855 RG59 has a loss of 7.7 dB/100 ft at 540 MHz, which is the middle of the UHF band. Belden 1694 RG6 has a loss of 4.6 dB/100 ft. If you use a preamp just after the antenna before the long coax run, it will make the signals stronger before the coax attenuation; signal loss can't be recovered once gone. The preamp will also improve the total system noise figure (NF) because it is at the beginning of the system and its noise figure will be less than the tuner NF which is usually about 7 dB. This shows how much a preamp can improve a system NF:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota
scroll down to and click on file 10,
COMPARE System Noise Figures
With and Without Preamps

which should take you here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota;jsessionid=3chwuk95i1.goose_s?p=9&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=1&s=0&z=4
I am suppose to go up there this weekend to help him repair his deck so I might grab a CM-3010 that I have. It doesn't have the built-in pre-amp, but I do have a stand alone amp with variable gain that I can piggy back it on the antenna and try that to see what I get. Like we say at work "Science Fair Project". Not looking at this as the "end all" but more of a "Lets see what this does".
He does have an attic so I might try that, but they do have fairly thick walls and I am not sure if the insulation is foil backed. Again, science fair project.Two excellent plans. The 3010 doesn't have much gain, but if you get promising results with a preamp, you will know that an antenna with more gain would do even better. A preamp can't be expected to make up for an antenna that doesn't have much inherent gain, but that seems to be a popular marketing approach to keep the package small.

We used to live in an apartment that had brick veneer walls with aluminum foil backed insulation. I couldn't figure out, at first, why the strong local TV signals couldn't be received with an indoor antenna and why I had to take my cell phone to a window to connect. It was like living in a Faraday Cage.
Grounding is a must around his place. As you drive through the area, there are many farms. All the barns have multiple lightning rods on the roof with some of the rods blown to pieces from strikes.The grounding of the coax and the mast is for electrical safety and to drain any buildup of static charge to discourage a strike, but the system will not survive a direct strike.

To me, grounding the coax shield with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground is of first importance, because it will shunt any equipment leakage current to ground. All AC operated equipment has leakage current, and when operating properly the leakage current will not be felt by most people because it will be below the threshold of perception. I learned about leakage current after I had three close calls from electrical shock; one from my own stupidity, and the other two from other peoples carelessness.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=979&stc=1&d=1429295251

http://www.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Documents/229-2_manual.pdf

http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/safety.htm#saftes

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=1457594&postcount=1022

http://www.go-gddq.com/upload/2011-11/11110816318522.pdf
scroll down to page 8

One unknown factor that hasn't reared yet is the foliage. That's going to be the great unknown and could skew everything.Correct. Take a look at these:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html
scroll down to
Trees and UHF

http://www.wrightsaerials.co.uk/reference/resources/trees-and-uhf-reception.pdf
It's analog and in the UK, but the ideas are still valid.

Thank you for breaking your post into four paragraphs; it's much easier to read than one large paragraph.