Antenna options

[sl1982]

Hello folks.

Just recently I have been trying to cut the cord. The last thing i need to be able to get rid of my satellite is some sort of live football. So one day i came across the idea of getting an antenna and picking up some of the stations out of detroit/toledo. So in my search i came across the mohu sky 60 that should in theory be able to get these stations (approx 55 miles away).

Here is the tvfool report http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3df1f0f041179fff

I figure the best i can do is on the roof mounting. So maybe 25 feet? What would you guys suggest? The db8e also looks promising. Also I am only really concerned with NBC FOX CBS and ABC. Anything else would be a bonus.

Also where would you suggest i mount the antenna? Here are a couple pictures of my house. I have a tree in my backyard and my neighbor does too. The direction i need to point is approximately between the two trees. Also my house has aluminum siding if that makes any difference.


Here are a few pictures.

My roof (https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=48642cc827b8be01!13815&authkey=!AB_xAoetAcmQoEU&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg)

Between the two houses (https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=48642cc827b8be01!13818&authkey=!AMFe6ohnZrX5ZNw&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg)

Render of my house (https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=48642cc827b8be01!13819&authkey=!AARFXeJE7-mDNkk&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg)

Thanks for any help you guys can give me. When coming up with this idea it seemed pretty easy until i started researching. Made me realize i dont know nearly enough and to find the advice of people that do.

[StephanieS]

Greetings,

You are on the "bleeding" edge of Detroit. This means, you may see the signals sometimes, others not in the best of conditions.

If possible, post plots at 30 and 50 feet above ground to see if you gain any additional signal from Detroit.

EDIT: if you those trees are in the path of magnetic 240, they will be a problem.

Cheers.

[sl1982]

30 feet (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3df1f0ef962475ae)

50 feet (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3df1f09315422201)

[StephanieS]

Thanks.

At 50' you improve Detroit signal access enough that stable reception could be achieved. That said, it is imperative that no tree obstructions are in the path of magnetic 240.

You are right that DB8e was a good choice. I would recommend that antenna in this application. I would also add a Antennacraft Y10713 VHF antenna. The VHF antenna would be for Detroit's FOX affiliate on channel 7.

I'd be reluctant to run a preamp with the presence of CIII and it's plentiful signal. Instead I'd opt for an Antennas Direct signal combiner as found here:

https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/UHF-VHF-Antenna-Combiners.html

That product allows separate UHF and VHF antennas to be consolidated into one coaxial lead coming into your home.

For the best chance of success mounting the DB8e and Y10713 50' above ground both orientated to magnetic 240 would give you the best chance at reliable reception.

Rohn makes some quality collapsible masts.
http://www.rohnnet.com/rohn-telescoping-masts

Cheers.
30 feet (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3df1f0ef962475ae)

50 feet (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3df1f09315422201)

[sl1982]

Hmm. I was hoping i could get away without some sort of tower. Im not sure the wife would approve of that. Given that CIII is at a vastly different angle and the db8e is directional is it still going to pick up the signal?

[StephanieS]

Off axis, since CIII has such a good signal, yes it ought to pick it up off axis.

RE: Detroit. You can try lower elevations for antenna mountings. You may get lucky, you may not. At 25' your map is clear though with signal strengths and pathways that Detroit is on the ragged edge of being reliable. Only at 50' do you begun to have a enough signal to move it into "weak but likely reliable.'

Now you are in, 'very weak, intermittent' at 25.'

Cheers.

[sl1982]

Ok thanks for the help. I will try to get some sort of mast mounted to my roof to put the antenna as high as possible. As of right now I am in the purchase planning stage so nothing has been bought. Also you were saying buying another antenna for the vhf? If my reading serves me i should need some sort of fm filter? Here is a readout of the radio stations in my area FMFool (http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29). Also would this be a viable alternative to the antenna you posted as it is more compact and would more likely pass the wife test. C5 Clearstream 5 (https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/C5-Clearstream-5-vhf-uhf-long-range-outdoor-DTV-antenna.html)

[Jake V]

Your TVFool Plots all indicate that they are only resolved to the block level. That means the software could tell exactly where your house is. I recommend re-doing all the plots with the following instructions: http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=14508

Your plots may or may not change, but it is good information to have.

[sl1982]

Okay this is what ive got http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3df1f0465e72a163 At 35 ft

[ADTech]

You're going to need a lot more horsepower on UHF than a C5 can offer. However, you will need it (or something comparable or stronger) for the Fox station out of Detroit. The rest of the Detroit stations are all UHF, so a fringe/deep fringe UHF antenna is needed.

A preamp is needed. Our Juice can handle far stronger signals that CIII will provide. However, since any directional UHF antenna aimed at Detroit will be edge-on to CIII's signal, it will be anywhere from 10 to 30 dB below the forecasted level.

Look carefully for a tree-free path towards Detroit. Your UHF reception, in particular, will depend on that.

I'd also plan on an FM filter on the front end of the preamp. That will keep the amplified FM out of your TV tuners. You have a 50 kW FM station about 3 miles away.

[sl1982]

Thanks ADTech. I was thinking of combining the C5 with the DB8e. I will go take a look at the juice preamp. is this it? https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/UHF_VHF_antenna_pre_amp_kit.html?pconf=49&slot=100

[ADTech]

No that's the PA18 which is not recommended for your location.

https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/antenna_amplifier.html

[sl1982]

OK thanks ADTech. Do you know if the lifetime warranty is still valid if bought off amazon? I have a gift card on there I can use towards the purchase.

Also does anyone know if i can repurpose the roof mount for my satellite dish and put another mast in the top of it? I know i am going to have to add some guy wires to it if i can do this.

[sl1982]

Ok so i have bit the bullet and purchased the db8 with 15 ft of mast that i am going to mount to my roof. I will be purchasing the juice amp in the future. I just couldnt find it on amazon. What would be a safe distance for rg6? I am putting in a hdhomerun network tuner so i could locate it wherever i needed it to be.

[ADTech]

Go to Amazon.com. In the search window, enter "antennas direct juice" (include the quotes). It's that easy to find.

Antenna warranties are valid if the antenna was purchased through an authorized retail partner or distribution channel. Common exceptions are Amazon marketplace vendors or ebay sellers who are re-selling product that was returned to a retailer and we've already credited the retailer who was supposed to destroy the returned product.

Do NOT extend the satellite dish mount unless it also has the support legs. As far as if it will work for your situation, we don't know. You'll have to analyze its location relative to where the antenna NEEDS to be in order for the signal to get to it.

[sl1982]

What support legs are you referring to?

[ADTech]

If originally used on the sat dish.
http://www.thesatelliteshop.net/images/additional/DIRECTV%20Slimline%20AU9%20SWM%203%20LNB%20Ka%20%20Ku%20Slim%20Line%20Dish%20Ant enna.jpg

If you have a 'standard' J-mount that has only the base plate and you choose to extend it without any additional supports, be prepared to accept whatever consequences that occur.

[sl1982]

Does that apply for fascia mounting as well? I work in a fabrication shop so i can whip up some supports if need be.

[sl1982]

First impressions:

TLDR; This antenna is awesome.

I just put together the antenna and threw it in the holder for my patio umbrella as a test. I am picking up 9 stations, some of them out of detroit. 4.1 comes in with a signal strength of 57. Many of the others are not watchable as they come in and out. This is without any sort of signal booster and at a height of 10 feet. Once i get this mounted on the roof i think i will get much better reception. Thanks for all the help guys. If this works out the next step will be getting a c5 for vhf (unless someone can reccomend something better that isnt a massive yagi) and the hdhomerun to send it through the house.

[ADTech]

Was it the DB8 or DB8e that you purchased? Both are very directional when it comes to weak UHF signals. 10-20° off in either direction can easily make or break reception of those weak signals.

At patio umbrella height and if you're in a suburban type environment, I'd assume there is significant surrounding clutter such as trees, other homes, and the like. Work on getting the antenna into a spot where it has the clearest available line of sight back towards Detroit, regardless of whether that is high or low. A clear but low mounting location is usually far better than a higher location that is, for example, behind the crown of a tree.

Do NOT drill any holes in your house until you have satisfactorily demonstrated reception. I can't tell you how many times I've had to tell customers to move their antenna to fix reception issues. The unrealistic expectation is that a convenient mounting location can be made to work satisfactorily by wishful thinking just because it's convenient and doesn't require any extra work.

[sl1982]

I purchased the db8e. It is sitting somewhat underneath my back tree. It doesnt have leaves on it yet so it is not affecting things quite as much as it will. I do have a spot on my roof that seems like it will have a pretty good clear view to detroit. As for the suburban aspect I am right on the south end of my town with not much in the way behind me. No more houses just a few commercial buildings and a refinery a mile or two away.

[sl1982]

Ok so i managed to get this thing up without killing myself. Good news is where i placed it it has a clear view beyond my neighbours tree. Right now it is just the antenna with about 30 feet of rg6-quad hooked up to it.

Pictures

Picture 1 (https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=48642cc827b8be01!13864&authkey=!AP6ZE-jWW_VM7No&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg)

Picture 2 (https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=48642cc827b8be01!13862&authkey=!ABhIkahXMvxVthM&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg)

Channels I get (just showing the main channel):

4.1 - 100%
7.1 - 75%
20.1 - 80%
28.1 - 50%
29.1 - 60%
31.1 - 60%
38.1 - 80%
50.1 - 40%
51.1 - 85%
56.1 - 75%
62.1 - 75%

To be honest I wasnt expecting to get so many of these. According to the tvfool report some of these should be almost impossible. Anyways I had a couple of questions. The antenna bobs around a bit in the wind. Should I be putting guy wires on it? Also can anyone see any issues with my mounting method? And thirdly I am planning on connecting the antenna to the outside rg6 i had run for the satellite. I would estimate the total rg6-quad at about 70 - 100 feet. Is an amplifier needed for this length?

Thanks for all the help guys. I really appreciate all the information i have gotten so far.

Oh and does anyone think i can pull in fox if i add a c5?

[sl1982]

Hey guys i am planning on adding a c5 and a juice preamp. Where does the amp for the preamp go? Before the combiner?

Eg.
Antennas
Combiner
Amp
Power inserter
Tv

[Tim]

It depends on whether you want to amplify just the VHF signals from the C5 or both the UHF signals from the DB8e and the VHF signals from the C5.

To amplify both, mount the preamp after the combiner.

To amplify just the VHF, mount the preamp between the C5 and the combiner. In this case you would have to make sure your combiner passes DC voltage on the VHF side so that the DC voltage from the power inserter is able to get to the preamp.

[No static at all]

The antenna bobs around a bit in the wind. Should I be putting guy wires on it? Also can anyone see any issues with my mounting method?I would either lower the antenna or attach guy wires. That is too much height without some kind of support.

[ADTech]

mount the preamp between the C5 and the combiner.

Won't work, the provided combiner doesn't pass power out the VHF port.

Combine, then amplify both.

Here's the basic diagram: https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Using_a_UHF_VHF_Preamp_With_Seperate_Antennas.pdf

[sl1982]

Ok and where would i put an FM Trap? Between the antenna and the the combiner?

[ADTech]

Install the filter between the U/V combiner and the input of the preamp.

[Tim]

Won't work, the provided combiner doesn't pass power out the VHF port.



The Pico Macom and the Blonder-Tonque UVSJ combiners pass DC on the VHF side if that feature should be needed in an installation.

[sl1982]

Hey guys,

Had someone knock over my antenna while it was sitting in my backyard and it did some damage to it.

One of the bowties is broken off entirely and the other one is loose. Here are some pictures.

Broken bowtie (https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=48642cc827b8be01!14105&authkey=!AKQoGvEpreVNcy4&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg)

Loose bowtie (https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=48642cc827b8be01!14106&authkey=!ANoeLKy7bgW3om4&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg)

Is the antenna toast at this point? Or is it repairable? Should I just put it up and see how it performs?

Thanks for the help

[ADTech]

Call in Monday between 9-5 Central and ask for Melissa. She should be able to find you what you need.

We often scrap out antennas that are not resellable but we do keep some of the parts on hand.

[sl1982]

I managed to fix it (i hope). I used a vice to compess the pins holding the loose ones so they were tight and epoxied the boken one back on. Hopefully it works good

[sl1982]

Hi guys.
I just got my c5 and got it installed. I was having issues with picking up fox vhf channel 7). I found a local antenna shop and they suggested getting a preamp. Got it installed and all working. The problem is the signal quality on that channel is only around 50% and it cuts in and out. Any ideas? The preamp has a fm trap built in and it doesnt seem to make any difference having it on or off.

https://rgng7a.by3302.livefilestore.com/y3pzTVs-eoTrMvZOVlggeP0czU2dax-7X0dhFpKX9G3tbtASCFAfFcTW9r2CJcSsvQxVIRbjZvwbxp8QEDo6GvTSJIIFZqId8jLeLLLEJaVPli5 KtJRX-KNiYIGG_TYIXwk4QrmwPT18Lt0COfA6EXMktMJKrjsOkxWmAg7F4PiZHo/Untitled-1.jpg?psid=1

On another note, channel 45 which is in the same area as channel 7 comes in at 98% signal quality.

[rabbit73]

The link to your image doesn't work.

I found a local antenna shop and they suggested getting a preamp.What preamp did you get?

On another note, channel 45 which is in the same area as channel 7 comes in at 98% signal quality.WDIV NBC is on real channel 45 which comes in on the DB8E; WJBK Fox on real channel 7 comes in on the C5.

How is your system hooked up; what is connected to what?

The problem is the signal quality on that channel is only around 50% and it cuts in and out.What are you using to measure signal quality, the HDHR for Signal Quality (SNR) and Symbol Quality (Inverse of Errors)?

[sl1982]

Sorry, here is a link to the picture.

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=48642CC827B8BE01!14704&authkey=!AOcnOLbLGf3fBxc&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg

DB8e + C5 to combiner then to amplifier

I am using the HDHR for signal readings.

edit: The preamp is an antennacraft 10G212

[ADTech]

A 30 dB preamp probably isn't a good idea when you have several FM stations within 10 miles of you, two of which are 50 kW stations. See if you can swap the amp for one of the 15-20 dB models.

[sl1982]

Well it is adjustable from 18 - 30. I could turn it all the way down maybe? The place i bought it from doesnt accept returns unless its broken. Could another fm trap help maybe?

[rabbit73]

If you click on the pending button in your report you will see that you have not 2 but 3 local strong channels; CHCH on real channel 29 from London has been added.

ADTech suggested that you order the Juice preamp because he thought it would tolerate your strong local signals while providing amplification for the much weaker Detroit signals if you amplified UHF and VHF signals. As you found out the Juice is backordered because of a manufacturing parts shortage.

If you want to amplify just the C5 VHF signals and let the DB8E provide the extra gain for the UHF signals, you would need to use a UHF/VHF combiner AKA UVSJ, that would pass power to the VHF only amp. The AD combiner can't do that, but there are UVSJs that will as pointed out by Tim in post #29.

There is a test that you can do now to see if your preamp can receive Fox on real channel 7 if it is protected from the strong local UHF signals from Oil Springs and London.

I suggest you try just the C5 connected to the VHF input of the combiner with the DB8E not connected to the combiner.

C5 > combiner > preamp > coax > power inserter > tuner

You can also add an FM filter between the combiner and the input of the preamp if you think the FM filter in the preamp isn't enough to attenuate your strong local FM signals. See attachment for an FM report based on my estimate of your location. You can do your own report using your exact address to see how close I came (southern edge of Sherwood Village):
http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

How does the DB8E do on the Detroit signals (Not including Fox) without the amp? Are you satisfied with the results?

[sl1982]

Ok i will test that out. London is on the back side of the antenna and I dont even pick it up. The one from Oil springs i do pick up but not with 100% signal quality as it is pretty off axis from where I have the antennas pointed. I would prefer to keep the db8e amplified as it does help a few problematic channels come in reliably. If i remember correctly i did have only the c5 hooked up at one points just to the amp but not though the combiner. Does that make a difference?

[rabbit73]

Does that make a difference? Yes it does because the combiner protects the preamp from the strong UHF signals in the test that I suggested. The VHF input passes VHF signals but rejects UHF signals. The UHF input passes UHF signals and rejects VHF signals. Look at the UVSJ specs here:
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/Filters-Diplexers.pdf

I would prefer to keep the db8e amplified as it does help a few problematic channels come in reliably.That would be a balancing act to provide a little more gain for UHF without overloading the preamp which would harm the reception of your weak signals. It has to do with the Dynamic Range which is the difference between your strongest signals and your weakest desired signals. When the preamp is overloaded by strong signals it produces spurious signals from IMD (Intermodulation Distortion) within the preamp that wipe out your weakest desired signals.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1496&d=1441051859

There is a limit to the Dynamic Range that your system can handle. When the Dynamic Range is too great you must resort to exotic (expensive) measures like custom filters and separate antennas for problem channels.

There is a technique that I use when without a preamp doesn't give enough gain and with a preamp gives too much gain. It is to insert an attenuator between the antenna and the input of the preamp to find the happy medium.

[sl1982]

That makes sense. Almost like audio amplifiers producing harmonics when clipped. Thanks for all the help guys. This is very interesting stuff but not for the faint of heart.

[rabbit73]

ADTech did some interesting tests that show how weak signals are damaged when a preamp is overloaded by strong signals:

Just the antenna, no preamp:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1497&d=1441052886

This is what the same signals look like when the preamp is moderately overloaded. Notice that the weakest signals are damaged first. The noise floor rises from the spurious signals created by the IMD. This reduces the SNR of the weak signals to less than the required 15 dB minimum:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1500&d=1441054170

This is what the same signals look like with a badly overloaded preamp:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1498&d=1441052947

This is what the same signals look like with a high quality preamp that isn't easily overloaded:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1499&d=1441053000

[rabbit73]

Almost like audio amplifiers producing harmonics when clipped.Yes, exactly. Clipping produces harmonic distortion products. Intermodulation distortion produces spurious signal products.

This is very interesting stuff but not for the faint of heart.I think you are ready for it because of your desire to improve your reception.

[sl1982]

Ok, removing the db8e from the equation gives me identical results. Any other ideas? Too much FM?

edit: ok it seems to be worse. Signal quality is around 45 now

[sl1982]

Just ran a test by hooking up the antenna output to my stereo. I am still able to bring in local fm channels crystal clear even with the fm trap on in the preamp. Could this be causing the problem?

edit: also interestingly enough while trying to tune in to a detroit fm station I am getting spillover from one of the locals even though they are about 5 MHz apart (turning the trap back on stops this)

[sl1982]

Sorry to keep adding stuff on here but I am unsure if this is pertinent information or not. It seems as the temperature outside gets warmer throughout the day the signal gets worse.

[rabbit73]

I just got my c5 and got it installed. I was having issues with picking up fox vhf channel 7). I found a local antenna shop and they suggested getting a preamp. Got it installed and all working. The problem is the signal quality on that channel is only around 50% and it cuts in and out. Any ideas? The preamp has a fm trap built in and it doesnt seem to make any difference having it on or off.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1509&d=1441155005

Well, at least your getting Fox even if it's not a high quality signal.
Ok, removing the db8e from the equation gives me identical results.That eliminates the strong UHF signals coming in from the DB8E. The C5 is still picking up UHF signals, but they will be attenuated by the low pass filter in the combiner by 25 to 40 dB before reaching the preamp.
Just ran a test by hooking up the antenna output to my stereo. I am still able to bring in local fm channels crystal clear even with the fm trap on in the preamp. Could this be causing the problem?That test is inconclusive. You are probably getting some attenuation from the FM filter in the preamp, but it's not going to completely eliminate FM signals. A good FM tuner doesn't need much signal to function.
edit: also interestingly enough while trying to tune in to a detroit fm station I am getting spillover from one of the locals even though they are about 5 MHz apart (turning the trap back on stops this)That proves the filter is doing some attenuation. Your strongest FM signal is 65 dB stronger than Fox. I suspect that the preamp doesn't like that, and it is creating distortion products that reduce the SNR of Fox which gives you a low Signal Quality reading. You would need test equipment to see exactly what the numbers are, but you can still try a preamp that is more resistant to overload and some different filters.

All FM filters aren't alike; they have different attenuation curves and a HLSJ can also be used as an FM filter. It attenuates all signals below CH7, including the FM band. See attachments 2-4.

I'm wondering if you could go back to your original setup where you were using the preamp for both antennas but insert several filters before the preamp input. That might also be inconclusive if the strong signals were getting into the plastic case of the preamp which would bypass the filters.

Then you could try a preamp with a metal case that is resistant to overload in place of the preamp with the plastic case. You missed the boat on the Juice, but another one might do.

You could also try a preamp in a metal case that is resistant to overload with an FM filter in front of it to amplify just VHF, but you would need a UVSJ that passes DC to the preamp.

Is your coax grounded with a grounding block? That reduces interference and makes filters much more effective.

edit: ok it seems to be worse. Signal quality is around 45 now........It seems as the temperature outside gets warmer throughout the day the signal gets worse.OTA signals constantly vary in strength, especially non-LOS signals, and are affected by temperature inversions.
Sorry to keep adding stuff on here but I am unsure if this is pertinent information or not.Keep the ideas coming, one of them might click. It's too soon to give up.

Was this TL;DR?:)

[sl1982]

Not TL;DR at all. I will order up some fm traps and see if that helps. Buying another amp right now is out of the question as i am running out of money lol. Are the Antennas Direct FM traps good for the job? Oh and i have a coax grounding block with a wire that runs to my plumbing, is that good?

[rabbit73]

Are the Antennas Direct FM traps good for the job?They are good, but you have to look at the strongest FM signals to pick the best filter. The AD filter does a good job at the 88 MHz end of the FM band, but is a little lacking at the 108 MHz end. The Radio Shack filter does a good job at the 108 MHz end but doesn't attenuate well at the 88 MHz end to allow reception of TV channel 6. The MCM filter does well at both ends.
CJFIFM 99.9 MHz -14.4 dBm
CHKS-FM 106.3 MHz -22.1 dBm
CBEGFM 90.3 MHz -27.2 dBm
WSAQ 107.1 MHz -29.2 dBm

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/DISTRIBUTED-BY-MCM-FM-88-/33-341?utm_expid=8634549-27.0czCl7fSQamjILoiAH9mgA.0&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3D%26esrc% 3Ds%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26cad%3Drja%26uact%3D8%26ved%3D0CB4QFjAAahUKEwid043d pdjHAhWLsIAKHc0QA-o%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.mcmelectronics.com%252Fproduct%252FDISTRIBUTED-BY-MCM-FM-88-%252F33-341%26usg%3DAFQjCNG115FGt0Lrb4pIuIUuEhNWxEkdYw%26bvm%3Dbv.101800829%2Cd.eXY

[sl1982]

Alright, I ordered 4 of the MCM ones. I guess i may as well work on some of the other stuff while i wait. Mainly grounding since I already have the guy wires installed.

Right now the wires come in the front of my house and are grounded to the water pipe there. Looking at the ground in my electrical panel it seems to hook up to my water line there ( I am sure this is not to code anymore but it may have been when the house was built)

Another option is i could run my coax to the back of the house and ground at the same spot the panel is. I have bought one of these: http://www.amazon.com/TII-Broadband-Cable-Lightning-Protector/dp/B0016AIYU6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441204981&sr=8-1&keywords=coax+lightning+arrestor

Also for mast grounding can I run a wire to the same spot?

[rabbit73]

You have done the most important thing when you grounded the coax with a grounding block, to protect yourself from leakage current shock if any of the AC equipment that is connected to the coax becomes defective. The code also requires that the mast is grounded by a separate 10 gauge wire connected to the house electrical system ground.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1513&d=1441206024

Right now the wires come in the front of my house and are grounded to the water pipe there. Looking at the ground in my electrical panel it seems to hook up to my water line there ( I am sure this is not to code anymore but it may have been when the house was built)Probably OK

[sl1982]

Right. But since my house ground system is connected to my water pipes I should theoretically be able to ground to any one of them? Or should it be close to my panel?

[rabbit73]

I'm not an electrician and I can't see your setup. The local electrical inspector has the final say, but you might not want to get him involved; some are more friendly than others. A local electrician could advise you. Todd Humphrey doesn't speak for the NFPA that publishes the NEC code, but he has some ideas that are helpful.
Satellite System Grounding
Part 2 - NEC Overview
Presented by Todd Humphrey
http://www.dbsinstall.com/diy/Grounding-2.asp

I have bought one of these: http://www.amazon.com/TII-Broadband-Cable-Lightning-Protector/dp/B0016AIYU6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441204981&sr=8-1&keywords=coax+lightning+arrestor
That device will ground a spike from the center conductor of the coax to ground. It is not required by the code but some people feel better when they have one. There is a similar device built-in some surge suppressor power strips that ground the coax. It has been known to degrade OTA signals and pick up electrical interference from the AC line in the same housing.

For the price of that device you could have bought an RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp. The RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp does have a history of quality control problems, but you can buy three of them for the price of one Channel Master 7778. One of the problems is with the separate/combined switch. If you have the switch in the separate position to use two antennas, one for VHF and one for UHF as in your case, sometimes the switch doesn't make good contact with the VHF antenna. The workaround is to use a UVSJ to combine the two antennas and connect the UVSJ to the combined input of the preamp.

Buying another amp right now is out of the question as i am running out of money lol.I'll think about a way for you to use what you have now.

[sl1982]

Haha yeah i know. Trust me you do not want to know what I paid for the amp i bought. Sometimes it sucks when you want to get things done right away.

edit: Would this work for all my connections to keep them weatherproof? http://www.homedepot.ca/product/liquid-electrical-tape-waterproof-seal-all-indoor-outdoor-uses-includes-bru/411161

[rabbit73]

you do not want to know what I paid for the amp i bought. Sometimes it sucks when you want to get things done right away.
Been there; done that.

edit: Would this work for all my connections to keep them weatherproof?
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/liquid-electrical-tape-waterproof-seal-all-indoor-outdoor-uses-includes-bru/411161It looks like it would work, but I don't have any experience with it.

http://static.dxengineering.com/pdf/WeatherProofingCoax-TechTip.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eHgyxo3e9A

http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/con_seal.html

http://forums.radioreference.com/amateur-radio-antennas/239363-sealing-coax-connections-against-weather.html

[rabbit73]

Try this with your preamp if you want to amplify VHF and UHF, using the combiner that came with the C5:

DB8E >
\
combiner > FM trap > preamp > coax > power inserter > tuner
/
C5 >

If the preamp is still overloading even with the FM trap, insert an attenuator between the FM trap and the input of the preamp:

DB8E >
\
combiner > FM trap > attenuator > preamp > coax > power inserter > tuner
/
C5 >

The idea is to find the value of attenuation that will provide enough gain for the weak signals without overloading the preamp with the strong signals. For this test the control on the inside power unit should be set for max gain, because you want the attenuation to be before the preamp.

You can use a combination of an adjustable attenuator and fixed attenuators for the test, then replace with a fixed attenuator/attenuators.

variable attenuator:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/Variable-Attenuator.html

fixed attenuators:
http://www.3starinc.com/drop_in-line_attenuator.html
http://home-automation.smarthome.com/search?p=Q&asug=&w=attenuator
http://mjsales.net/collections/attenuators/products/fam-attenuator?variant=1083705673
Attenuation values 1, 3, 6, 8, 10, 12, 16, 20dB (FAM)
click on 1 dB for other values; the up and down arrows are faint

[sl1982]

Alright thanks. I will let you know how it goes when i get the FM traps. I got a few just in case one wouldnt cut it.

[sl1982]

So right after a thunderstorm i get 85% quality. Wtf

[rabbit73]

So right after a thunderstorm i get 85% quality. WtfOn WJBK? That's a clue for power line noise, which is common on VHF.
For instance, WJRT-12 averages only 18-19db, which isn't much above the minimum.

The other day (Friday 8/7) was pretty bad, but then the rain started later in the evening, and the problem settled down and got better as the night went along and the signal level came up 5-8 points.

I thought about some sort of electrical issue, but if it's that, I don't know what could be doing it, and why it would be intermittent.

I answered:
My guess is electrical interference from power line noise, which is worse on VHF than UHF.

Powerline interference is usually worst during dry weather (low humidity) from my experience. As humidity rises the interference tends to lessen, especially when raining.
It was power line noise.

[sl1982]

Well it hasnt been very dry here lately. Over 90% humidity every day. If anything the humidity has dropped since it rained. If that is the culprit how would I go about fixing it?

edit: something like this perhaps? http://www.amazon.ca/CyberPower-CP850PFCLCD-Sinewave-Compatible-Mini-Tower/dp/B00429N18S

[rabbit73]

By finding the source like MikeBear did. Rather than repeating everything, please read his thread.
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=15701

It might be your problem, or not. Make some tests with AM receivers for the broadcast band and for VHF if you have a receiver that covers the aircraft band.

[sl1982]

The best I have is a clock radio. Does it matter what frequency its set to in the AM band?

[rabbit73]

I use a battery operated portable radio that covers the broadcast band, 540 to 1610 kHz. Tune to the low end of the band where there are no stations, then try the high end. The ferrite stick antenna in the portable radio has a directional effect.

I have a VHF-Hi channel that is marginal. I can receive it sometimes when the SNR is 15-16 dB. When the noise level is higher, I can't receive it because the SNR is less than 15 dB. I am able to measure the signal and the noise in an adjacent unused channel, and my Sony TV gives me the SNR in the Diagnostics Screen. My old SLM (signal level meter) has an AM detector for the audio so I can hear the signal and the noise. It's the meter on the left; the newer meter on the right can also measure noise and signal.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1412&stc=1&d=1439220373

A car radio also covers the broadcast band. When I drive around town with the radio tuned to a frequency where there are no stations, I can hear the noise get louder when I get near power lines, especially the big high tension lines. This test doesn't work with the FM band on the radio, because FM is designed to reject noise.

The broadcast band is much lower in frequency than the VHF aircraft band (118-137 MHz) or the VHF TV band but often if you hear the noise on the broadcast band it is also on VHF TV frequencies. It is worse on VHF-Low than VHF-High.

http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/HANDSON.pdf

[sl1982]

Ok so interestingly enough it is my pc causing emi. shut it off and the signal goes from 50-50 to 65-70. Only problem is i am not sure what component it would be.

[rabbit73]

Thanks for the report. I think you have found the source, but there could be other sources. The component that usually causes the interference is the power supply. The power supplies now being used are called switch mode power supplies (SMPS), or "switchers" for short. They are more efficient than the older linear power supplies but have a tendency to produce a lot of EMI unless they have the proper filters installed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply

If your PC is a desktop, the power supply is inside. If you have a laptop, the AC adapter is the usual source and it is sometimes possible to buy an adapter that is less noisy like MikeBear did.

Some people modify the power supply in their computer and install extra filters, but that is beyond the ability of most users.

http://ka7oei.blogspot.com/2012/12/reducing-switching-supply-racket-rf.html
http://ka7oei.blogspot.com/2014/08/completely-containing-switching-power.html

I don't know of a source of low noise power supplies for a desktop, but this one claims "Premium EMI/RFI power filtration provides low noise and ripple for stable power delivery."
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817707081&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Power+Supplies-_-N82E16817707081&gclid=CLvKi5-G5scCFY9ufgodPbAGQw&gclsrc=aw.ds

EMI can be radiated through the air to your antenna or conducted through the power line, or both.

If the interference is radiated through the air the cure is to increase the distance between the source and the antenna.

If the noise is conducted through the power line, sometimes using a different circuit helps. An AC line filter can be installed near the source, and one can be installed near AC operated equipment that is being affected.

http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_CompRFI.html
from the ham radio viewpoint

[sl1982]

Thank you for the info. I built the computer so i am familiar with the power supply (desktop). Its was not a cheap one so i am suprised that it would be causing so much emi. As for other sources of interference in the house i can pretty much rule thise out as i shut off every other breaker except the one the amplifier and hdhomerun are on. The computer and the amplifier are on seperate circuits already and the computer is about as far away from the antenna as i can make it. Short of putting it in the basement.

Edit: putting the side of the computer case on did seem to improve things a bit. So it is probably radiated through the air. Can the amplifier itself pick this up? They are in adjacent rooms.

[rabbit73]

what amplifier?

[sl1982]

The antenna amplifier. Preamp i suppose its called.

[rabbit73]

Ah, yes the Antennacraft 10G212. That has a plastic case doesn't it?

[sl1982]

Yes it does

[rabbit73]

Preamps with a plastic case don't reject EMI as well as preamps with a metal case according to ADTech, and yours has two plastic case units. It does help that your coax is grounded.

Did you try the FM filter yet? We are now on page four and I'm having a hard time keeping track.

[sl1982]

Not yet. I am still waiting for the shipment. I do have some metal foil tape i could put on the case of the unit, if that would help.

[rabbit73]

That might be an interesting experiment with aluminum foil, but don't leave it on too long because of heat buildup.

It could be getting into your HDHR. Can you try a test with antenna into a TV tuner, eliminating the HDHR?

[sl1982]

I did that into my panasonic tv. Pretty much the same

[rabbit73]

Was the computer off or on then during the antenna directly to Panasonic without HDHR test?

You need your computer when you use the HDHR don't you?

[sl1982]

Well this is a different computer. So it isnt needed for the HDHR. And the computer was on when i tried the tv directly.

[rabbit73]

If that computer is in use while someone is watching TV, then you will need to find a way to reduce the EMI that it is creating. Maybe one of these ways:

1. AC line filter for computer
2. Power supply with better filtering for low EMI
3. Better shielding for computer case
4. Is the monitor creating EMI?

Does the computer have a 3-wire power cord that has the grounding pin connected to a properly wired 3-wire AC receptacle?

[sl1982]

So i got my FM traps and they did not help the situation out at all. I even put three of them inline with no appreciable change. It looks like we have narrowed this down to the emi interference. I am going to have to do a few more tests. I am going to put foil on the window of my case and see if that improves it. I will also see if it is the monitor. Failing all that i will have to spend some money on line conditioners. If that doesnt work i guess i will have to shut down the computer while i am watching fox.

[rabbit73]

I'm wondering if a low EMI power supply for the computer, or an AC RFI line filter for the computer would help.

How about a Faraday Cage for the computer?

Just kidding, that would be an extreme solution.

[sl1982]

I will build a faraday cage if need be.... assuming my wife lets me. I was looking into emi/rf interference mitigations and i came across this
Cleansweep 10A (http://www.onfilter.com/data_sheets/10A_CleanSweep.pdf)

While i think something like this may work i cannot find any prices on them. Another option could be one of these:
ISOBAR6 Ultra (http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Isobar-Protector-ISOBAR6ULTRA/dp/B0000513US)

[rabbit73]

i came across this
Cleansweep 10A

While i think something like this may work i cannot find any prices on them.Why don't you call them and ask what model might help you:
http://www.onfilter.com/

I mentioned this earlier. What did you think of it?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817707081&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Power+Supplies-_-N82E16817707081&gclid=CLvKi5-G5scCFY9ufgodPbAGQw&gclsrc=aw.ds

The ISOBAR has a filter and a good reputation. The only problem I had with mine was that I had to make sure I turned the switch on and off quickly otherwise it would arc and damage the switch contacts. The PC SMPS power supply draws a lot of current at turn-on. My fix was to solder the internal switch on and insert a heavy duty motor starting switch in the cord.

Nicholas Goss had a difficult EMI problem:
Signal interference from air conditioner help please
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/1943289-signal-interference-air-conditioner-help-please.html

[sl1982]

That power supply isnt high enough wattage to run my computer. I put foil tape over the window in my pc to see if it would stop some of the interference. Didnt work. So I am left thinking it is running over my power lines. I am thinking I need to filter it.

edit: i also checked the monitor and its not the problem either

[sl1982]

Ok i am at a loss I bought a couple surge protectors that have 43db of emi/rf noise filtering. I put one on the computer, one on the preamplifier. The computer is still causing the drop in signal quality.

[rabbit73]

Curing EMI can be difficult, because it can be conducted or radiated or both. Nicholas Goss linked in post #81 certainly had a hard time.

Do you have a link for the surge protectors?

Is the tuner on the same surge protector as the preamp?

[sl1982]

I bought these. Yes they are cheap but i didnt have to get them shipped here. surge protector (http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/rocketfish-rocketfish-2-outlet-surge-protector-rf-hts100-rf-hts100/10169879.aspx?lang=en-CA&pcname=&sku=10169879&path=144166620731220ade83ba194a803bd5en02)

The computer preamp and tuner are all on seperate circuits in my house. The tuner is not on one of these surge protectors at all.

[rabbit73]

Rocketfish 2-Outlet Surge Protector (RF-HTS100)
searched for the fine print:
"EMI/RFI noise filtering: Up to 43 dB"

I don't see how it can possibly be as good as one of these
http://www.onfilter.com/

in such a small device that costs so much less.

[sl1982]

I am sure they arent better. But the ones i bought i walked into a store and got them off a shelf. The fact that two of them didnt seem to be doing anything makes me suspicios that the interference is going through the power line. I would have expected at least a marginal increase.

[rabbit73]

I understand your point, but when making a diagnosis you must be careful not to make any conclusions about what it couldn't or could be without further confirmation from additional tests.

Sherlock Holmes quote

"You will not apply my precept," he said, shaking his head. "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth? We know that he did not come through the door, the window, or the chimney. We also know that he could not have been concealed in the room, as there is no concealment possible. When, then, did he come?"
The Sign of the Four, ch. 6 (1890)
Sherlock Holmes in The Sign of the Four (Doubleday p. 111)

"EMI/RFI noise filtering: Up to 43 dB"
To me, Up to means as much as, but at what frequencies? Is it effective at the frequencies you need? I don't see them providing a chart that shows attenuation vs frequency. It might very well be effective at the frequencies you need, but the EMI could be coming in another way.

[sl1982]

Well rabbit i think we may have figured it out. I plugged the preamp and the hdhomerun into the surge protector and my signal shot up to 67%. I guess the hdhomerun was picking up the emi

edit: it dropped back down to 45. bah