Antenna advice- Simi Valley, Ca

[JGoodwin]

Here is my Signal Analysis

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dd243ffb9e0244e

What antenna and tuner if needed would I need to receive all the channels to the East of this report.

Before I found this website I bought a Lava 2805 and was able to pick up about 7 channels. I plan on returning the antenna and going with what you guys recommend. Two TV's total.

Antenna will be 15' off the ground. Which is the top of my single story ranch style house. I have one large tree across the street that is in my line of sight to the East. I prefer not to have a 10' antenna on my roof, if possible.

Thanks for your help.

[timgr]

I would get the biggest VHF-UHF combination antenna I could, mount it as high as possible, and point it right at Mt. Wilson. 15' is not very high - there's only 1 LOS station on your report.

Pointing through a tree is a problem. Look here at the section "Trees and UHF." http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html

If you don't want an antenna on your roof, how about a tower in your yard?

What is your budget like?

[JGoodwin]

Let's do $300.

The tree is big but not bushy and I might be able to install the antenna on the other side of the house where there may not be a tree obstruction.

[ADTech]

Simi Valley is a black hole for reception. Usually, you NEED a 10-14' antenna (or equivalent individual antennas) plus a pre-amp. Any thing less is usually disappointing.

Do what you can to get out from behind that tree or it will probably make your life miserable.

[JGoodwin]

What would be equivalent to 10'-14' antenna?

Is there a four bay bow tie antenna that will work?

I'll find a way around the tree. I just a recommendation for an antenna and pre-amp if needed.

[ADTech]

I'd go with an 8-bay for UHF plus a separate high-VHF antenna for 7-13. The 4-bay would be UHF-only and you really need the greater gain and directivity of the 8-bay for UHF.

There are a number of suitable pre-amps that should work.

[timgr]

My current setup is very similar to what ADTech recommends. I'm using a Antennas Direct DB8e and a Antennacraft Y10713 on the same mast, with an Antennacraft 10G221 preamplifier to mix the signal from the two antennas. I have both strong local and distant stations, so you could likely use the 10G222 which has higher gain than the 10G221. The RCA TVPRAMPR1 is also recommended frequently, inexpensive and high quality. Read about the gotchas with this amp though - goofy switch positions from the factory and breakable plastic case. Antennas Direct is also coming out with a preamp soon, so I hear - you might keep track of that.

Use your compass and point directly at Mt. Wilson, 81 degrees magnetic. If you can move the antenna around before you pick a permanent site, that could be helpful.

[JGoodwin]

I'm good with using the Antennas Direct DB8e. Is there any antenna that is smaller or a different design that can replace the Antenna-craft Y10713 size and still do the job?

[timgr]

You are somewhat limited with the VHF band. The long wavelength of the VHF signal implies that you need an antenna with a similar length. You could maybe use the Antennas Direct ClearStream 5, which has a different form factor from the long Y10713. It trades off large in a planar sense for the length of the Y10713. https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/C5-Clearstream-5-vhf-uhf-long-range-outdoor-DTV-antenna.html It is also considerably more expensive, and its stated gain is lower.

[JGoodwin]

The Antennas Direct ClearStream 5 states it's also a UHF. Is it just a poor antenna to do both UHF and VHF. Sorry for the questions I only want to do this once.

[ADTech]

The Antennas Direct ClearStream 5 states it's also a UHF. Is it just a poor antenna to do both UHF and VHF. Sorry for the questions I only want to do this once.

The C5 was designed to be a high VHF antenna (channels 7-13) and just happens to be useful for short-to-medium range UHF. It would not be considered appropriate for UHF duties in your situation which does call for a UHF antenna that is far more directional and with higher gain.

For high VHF, it's intended to compete head to head with the high-VHF antennas that are about half the length of the AC Y10713. It compensates for some of that by being ultra efficient and using a high-efficiency balun. It would likely do as well as could be expected for your area for your VHF requirements.

[JGoodwin]

Do you think I can put the Antennacraft Y10713 in the attic and the Antenna direct DB8e on the roof or will the attic block to much signal?

[JGoodwin]

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dd243ffb9e0244e


Do you think I can put the Antennacraft Y10713 in the attic and the Antenna direct DB8e on the roof or will the attic block to much signal?

[Tim]

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dd243ffb9e0244e


Do you think I can put the Antennacraft Y10713 in the attic and the Antenna direct DB8e on the roof or will the attic block to much signal?

Looking at your report, it looks like both of them need to be on the roof. You should separate them about 4 feet apart on the mast or more. By the way, the Y10713 is for Hi VHF channels 7-13. If you are looking to pick up channels 2, 3 and 6 you will need an antenna for Lo VHF.

It will help everyone make better suggestions if you will tell us which stations are your "must haves".

[JGoodwin]

Original Post-
Here is my Signal Analysis

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d243ffb9e0244e

What antenna and tuner if needed would I need to receive all the channels to the East of this report.


Antenna will be 15' off the ground. Which is the top of my single story ranch style house. I have one large tree across the street that is in my line of sight to the East. I prefer not to have a 10' antenna on my roof, if possible.

Thanks for your help.


RESPOND BY TIMGR-
My current setup is very similar to what ADTech recommends. I'm using a Antennas Direct DB8e and a Antennacraft Y10713 on the same mast, with an Antennacraft 10G221 preamplifier to mix the signal from the two antennas. I have both strong local and distant stations, so you could likely use the 10G222 which has higher gain than the 10G221. The RCA TVPRAMPR1 is also recommended frequently, inexpensive and high quality. Read about the gotchas with this amp though - goofy switch positions from the factory and breakable plastic case. Antennas Direct is also coming out with a preamp soon, so I hear - you might keep track of that.


I just want to know if I can put the Y10713 in the attic or will it loose too much signal?

Thank you.

[timgr]

Unlikely to work IMO - but the plot is only a simulation and therefor a best guess. Too little signal for an attic install. Tree in the way - which isn't as bad for VHF but still reduces the signal.

Go high, above the tree top or avoid the tree, and outdoors.

[JGoodwin]

The tree is directly across the street and is very tall. I think it's too close and to tall to go over. I think it will be a gamble that I'll just have to take. Thanks Tim.

[JGoodwin]

Has anyone had experience with these antennas- Antennacraft Y10713 vs Clear Stream C5

Any input would be great. I'm trying to determine which on will work better for me.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d2c15ab292fddc0

[timgr]

Did you compare the specs? ADTech here says the CS5 is meant to be comparable to antennas like the Y5713. The Y10713 is more sensitive than the CS5.

I own a Y10713, and it works much better than my report predicts. No complaints.

They are both optimized for real channels 7-13.

[ADTech]

Trying to compare an 8' 4" long, 3' wide Yagi to an antenna that's not much larger than a 1990 25" color TV set isn't a heads up comparison. There are times when you do need the greater gain and directivity of the long-boom Yagi, especially when dealing with the faintest high VHF signals or with multipath. The C5, OTOH, is intended to be a very compact and efficient receiving antenna with a nice, broad ~70° beamwidth.

Different critters for different applications most of the time.

Much of Simi Valley is a dead area for reception of the LA stations. It takes hard work and perseverance to pull something from the other side of the mountains.

[JGoodwin]

Okay, I have the antenna craft Y10713 on a 8' mast on the roof with a DB4e located on the top of the mast. I'm getting every channel the Y10713 is supposed to get and I'm getting 3 channels with the DB4e 38.1, 38.2, and 38.3. What am I doing wrong? The antennas are pointed 80 degrees with a compass.

I removed the Y10713 from the mast, ran the cable straight into the DB4e and I get the same three channels.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d2c15ac32485aba

[Tim]

I'm getting 3 channels with the DB4e 38.1, 38.2, and 38.3. What am I doing wrong? The antennas are pointed 80 degrees with a compass.

I do not see a virtual channel 38 on your report...can you tell us what the real channel number is? Or the call letters of the station?

[JGoodwin]

It's the Spanish channels KMEX.

[Tim]

I am not sure that I follow you. KMEX is on channel 34 with virtual channels 34.1 & 34.2. You said earlier virtual channels 38.1, 38.2 & 38.3. Could it be that you are picking up KPMR on real channel 21? I think you have the back of the antenna pointing pointing at 80 degrees. Turn it around. The little bow tie shaped pieces are the front of the antenna. The wire mesh part is the rear. Does that help?

[JGoodwin]

Tim,
I agree with you but the little bow ties are pointed to the right position. My fault 34.1, 34.2, 34.3 are the current channels I'm getting. Must have been my fat fingers. It wont pick up any other channels.



KMEX-DT 34 (34.1)
Univision (SI)
Max ERP: 500.000 kW
Eff. pwr: 311.690 kW
Dist: 38.8 mi Path: 2Edge
Rx: -95.3 dBm NM: -4.3 dB
Az: 93.0° (true)

[GroundUrMast]

The DB4E is smaller than the antenna(s) suggested in the first five or six reply to your original post. If you are aiming through a tree or other obstruction, even the larger antennas that were suggested are likely to have a great deal of trouble providing reliable reception. Still, if I was in your situation, I'd certainly try a DB8E or 91XG + a Y10713 combination.

Before you drill any holes in your roof, I strongly recommend that you prove reliable reception can occur at a proposed antenna location. If testing fails, you need to try an alternate location and/or height.

If you can't find any location/height that produces acceptable reception, you'll need to review your test results to determine if you have seen enough evidence to suggest that a larger antenna could reasonably hope to produce acceptable results. We'll be glad to help you make that assessment if that proves to be the case.

To answer your question, "...Is the DB4e just not working properly?" No, I don't think the DB4E is at fault... I think it's simply not the best antenna for your specific situation. (Please don't interpret this to be a negative comment re. the DB4E... I own one that I willingly paid full retail price for and have been very satisfied with. But my signal conditions are vastly different than those shown in your TVFR.)

[ADTech]

Where is the preamplifier that was prescribed? Without one, you don't have much of a chance.

I worked your plot backwards and came up with a location in the near vicinity of the intersection of Appleton and Lembert. That location is directly behind the peak of that 1400' hill less than a mile away (that intersection is at 900' ASL). Being 500' below a hill less than a mile away will pretty much remove any chance of predicting reliability of UHF reception, the UHF signals simply won't diffract soon enough to reach your elevation within that short of a distance with enough strength and quality to provide reception. VHF diffracts more readily and that's why you're getting those stations.

There's only so much that one can glean from the TVFool plot in making a reception assessment, sometimes it takes looking at the actual topographic map combined with experience to "read" the terrain from a computer screen and apply ones experience in previous situations to come up with a best estimate of one's chances. If I'd looked at the terrain first, I'd have assigned a near zero chance of reliable UHF reception for your immediate area.

Fellow member Pete Higgins is behind a similar hill down in the San Marino area complicated by transmitters on the hill that he's behind (at least you don't have that concern). I gave him a "near zero" chance of reliable reception, but through extraordinary means, he's managed to pull out a level of reception that keeps him busy. You might want to review his posts from when he was working on his system for insight into what it took.

[JGoodwin]

Yes the DB4e is a smaller antenna that was suggested in this form. The reason being when I called Antennas Direct and they looked at my signal analysis they recommended the DB4e and not the DB8e, because I'm only looking to get the channels in one direction. He also recommended the AM4262C Distribution amplifier which I have not hooked up yet. From my understanding the AM4262C is to carry the signal to another TV over 50' away.

There is a house, a street away that has a 4 bay cat whiskey antenna that is picking up 25+ channels with no amp and I'm higher on a hill than he is.

Sorry for all the questions, I'm new to the OTA community.

[ADTech]

I hate to say this, but you must have gotten one of the new guys when you called in...

Forget the little distribution amp, it's not going to do you any good. You need a mast-mounted preamp and a more directional UHF antenna.

I do not have your precise location, I'm basing my assessment on a deconstruction of your posted plot so there is certainly margin for error. If you can send me the exact GPS coordinates for your rooftop by PM, I'll look closer at it. You can get those by using the interactive maps feature. Relocate the balloon in the satellite view as needed, your coordinates will be below the lower left of the map or aerial view.

[JGoodwin]

I have no problem exchanging the DB4e for the DB8e and getting an amp if that's what is needed.

Before I make any changes I'll wait to hear back from ADTech.

[ADTech]

Okay, got your coordinates and your location. My estimate of your location was fairly good, eh?

My suggestion for the moment is as follows:

Run down to Woodland Hills to Frys (call first and verify stock) and see if you can pick up an RCA preamp. It's the best you're going to do in any retail store and the Frys website indicates they have that SKU in their system. I don't know of any other retail chains in the SoCal area that might carry it. You can always order it from Amazon or Walmart.com or wherever if time isn't important.

Mount the DB4e on the northern gable of your roof. From what I can see in the available aerial photos, that spot appears to put that tree across the street just out of your line of sight towards Mt Wilson. Aim antenna just to the left side of that tree as you're looking at it.

Pop the plugs out of the RCA's case and make sure that the SEPARATE/COMBINED switch is in the "SEPARATE" position and that the FM Trap is IN or ON.

Install the preamp as close as possible to the DB4e using the shortest possible cable and connect the DB4e to the UHF input of the amp.

Connect the VHF antenna to the VHF input of the amp or you can leave it out of the initial testing and ignore VHF for the moment, your choice, whichever is easier.

Run a temporary coax from the output of the amp indoors to a location near your test TV set. Connect the power inserter between the coax and the TV set following the directions included with the RCA. Plug it in and turn it on.

On your TV set, re-run your channel scan with the mode set to ANTENNA.

Let's see what you get from that experiment before doing anything else. If you get no UHF at all from Mt Wilson, there's probably none to be had at your location due to terrain shadowing, upgrading to a slightly stronger antenna won't make any significant difference.

Let us know how it goes.

Best of luck!

[JGoodwin]

ADTech- Before I got your response I called antennas direct and spoke to the tech department. I thought it would be easier to talk to you directly not knowing there are multiply people in the tech department.

They also looked at me signal analysis and they came up with: taking down the DB4e and putting up a 91XG Uni-Directional Ultra Long Range.

Which antenna should work better? The 91XG has more gain than the DB4e.

Any suggestion on preamp antenna combos out of those two?

In the mean time I also ordered a RCA preamp and will move the antenna to the North gable of the roof.

[JGoodwin]

Okay, got your coordinates and your location. My estimate of your location was fairly good, eh?

My suggestion for the moment is as follows:

Run down to Woodland Hills to Frys (call first and verify stock) and see if you can pick up an RCA preamp. It's the best you're going to do in any retail store and the Frys website indicates they have that SKU in their system. I don't know of any other retail chains in the SoCal area that might carry it. You can always order it from Amazon or Walmart.com or wherever if time isn't important.

Mount the DB4e on the northern gable of your roof. From what I can see in the available aerial photos, that spot appears to put that tree across the street just out of your line of sight towards Mt Wilson. Aim antenna just to the left side of that tree as you're looking at it.

Pop the plugs out of the RCA's case and make sure that the SEPARATE/COMBINED switch is in the "SEPARATE" position and that the FM Trap is IN or ON.

Install the preamp as close as possible to the DB4e using the shortest possible cable and connect the DB4e to the UHF input of the amp.

Connect the VHF antenna to the VHF input of the amp or you can leave it out of the initial testing and ignore VHF for the moment, your choice, whichever is easier.

Run a temporary coax from the output of the amp indoors to a location near your test TV set. Connect the power inserter between the coax and the TV set following the directions included with the RCA. Plug it in and turn it on.

On your TV set, re-run your channel scan with the mode set to ANTENNA.

Let's see what you get from that experiment before doing anything else. If you get no UHF at all from Mt Wilson, there's probably none to be had at your location due to terrain shadowing, upgrading to a slightly stronger antenna won't make any significant difference.

Let us know how it goes.

Best of luck!

Okay- I put the DB4e on the Northern gable of the roof, on the very top of a 10' mast with the RCA preamp. Pointed it towards MT Wilson and received channels KWHY 22.1, 22.2, 22.3, 22.4, 22.5, 22.6, 22.7, 22.8, 22.9, 22.10, KMEX (yes) channels 38.1, Univisi 38.2, units 38.32, KDOC 56.1, KBEH 63.1, KAZA 54.1, KILM 64.1 and KRCA 62.1

Not bad the only problem is 99% of those are in Spanish and that doesn't help me.

I than spun the DB4e around to 273 degrees and I can pick up channels KEYT-HD 3.1, KEYT-SD 3.2, KVMD-DT 31.1, UDG 31.2, FILAM 31.3, GDTV 31.4, Creatio 31.5, CRTV 31.6, TBWTV 31.7, WCETV 31.8, CCTV 31.9, TSTV 31.10, KSSE-FM (radio) 31.107, Univisi 38.1, Unimas 38.2, and LATV 38.3

5 of those channels are English. I should be able to pick up more English channels.

Any feed back would help out.

I didn't hook up the VHF antenna because on my VHF test I received all channels I need.


Any feed back would help out.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d2c154a453a29fe

[ADTech]

The 91XG should be there soon. Boresite it on the visual horizon in the signal path. Experiment with its height in 1' increments and see if you can find a spot where it works best.

Good luck!

[JGoodwin]

What would make the 91XG pick up different channels than the DB4e? Is it a gain issue or is it because the antenna is 8' long?

[BigDaveyL]

What would make the 91XG pick up different channels than the DB4e? Is it a gain issue or is it because the antenna is 8' long?

From my limited understanding, the 91XG is one of the highest gain antenna's one can currently buy (without buying something secondhand, importing one, etc.). It is also very directional so it can deal with multipath interference better.

See here for some technical specs:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Technical%20Data%20PDF%27s/DB4E-TDS.pdf
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Technical%20Data%20PDF%27s/DB8E-TDS.pdf
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/91XG-TDS.pdf

[Pete Higgins]

Hello Pete, My name is XXXX. I started the thread Antenna advise- Simi Valley. I was told by ADtech to follow some of your forms because my reception situation is similar to yours other than the transponders on the hillside you have to deal with.

What is your antenna setup for VHF and UHF and how many channels are you getting?
I live in Moreno Valley, just east of Riverside & north of March ARB. Currently I am running a Y10 7-13 (@ ~43’) for high VHF & two Solid Signal HDB8-X’s (~8” below it) for UHF. Like you, all my signals are 1 & 2-edge but my house is ~3.5 miles from Box Springs Mtn. so I’m not in nearly as deep of a shadow as you are. For UHF I have tried a single & dual 91XG’s, and a single & dual HDB8-X’s. At my location, the 91XG yagi (single or dual) does a better job of receiving channel 43 (CBS 2.1) than channel 36 (NBC 4.1). On the other hand, the 8-Bay’s do a better job with channel 36 @ the expense of channel 43.
See this thread, post 85
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=13236

I have a y10713 with a DB4e. The DB4e is only pulling none English channels (about 20) and 5 English channels.
For a long time I thought the translator transistors must be bad in all these antennas because I have the same problem.:confused:

I than received a 91XG this week and will be installing it tomorrow. I also have an RCA preamp hooked up to UHF.
I have tried several different amplifier brands & multiple models of those brands and the RCA’s work best for me. They are also the cheapest! I currently have 4 in use.

I receive most channels 7-13 from Mt. Wilson with the Y10713.
I get channel 7 (always), 9 (usually), 11.1 (sometimes), 11.2 (usually –it’s broadcast on channel 13) and channel 13 (usually). I also get channel 8 & 10 (sometimes) from San Diego when I point my antenna 180 deg. (TRUE).

The thread Antenna advise- Simi Valley has more information about my situation.
I read the thread –start to post # 36.

Are there a lot of English channels broadcasted from Mt. Wilson?
Yes, major networks channel 43 = CBS, 36 = NBC, 7 = ABC, 9 KCAL, 11 = FOX, 13 KCOP = My, 38 = ION, several PBS channels and some of the sub-channels on the foreign language stations offer English programming.

Any advise will be greatly appreciated.

[JGoodwin]

Thanks for all your help.

The conclusion is- North side of house, Eve mount, mast at 10' with 91XG at the top 3' lower is a Y10713. Both are attached to a RCA PREAMP.

I scanned 55 channels in rainy weather over the weekend and Monday when everything was clear I scanned 96 channels.

My only issue is Channel 9. I don't get it and that is one channel I'd like to have. What can I do to receive that channel?

If it helps these are the channels I get-
2.1 KCBS
2.2
4.1 NBC
4.2 COZY
5.1 KTLA
5.2
5.3
7.1 RF7
11.1 KTTV
11.2 FOX
13.1 KCOP
13.2 BOUNCE
13.3 MOVIES
18.1 (BLUE SCREEN)- 18.9 (BLUE SCREEN)
22.1 TVMF
22.2 SUPER
22.3 KAYDAY
22.4 IGLJES
22.5 MAJEST
22.6 JUVENT
22.7 KWHY (BLUE SCREEN)
22.8 (BLUE SCREEN)
30.1 ION
30.2 QUBO
30.3 IONLIFE
30.4 SHOP
30.6 QVC
30.6 HSN
34.1 KMEX
34.2 UNIMAS
38.1 KMEX
38.2 UNIMAS
38.3 LATV
44.1 KXLA
44.2 H&S
44.3 SKYLINK
44.4 SKY
44.5 ARRANG
44.6 IAVC
44.7 NTPTV
44.8 ICN
44.9 GETV
44.10 AMGA
44.11 AOTV
44.12 CTRV
46.1 UNIMAS
46.2 GETTV (BLUE SCREEN)
46.3 ESCAPE (BLUE SCREE)
46.4 GRITTV (BLUE SCREEN)
50.1 PBS
50.2 PBS PLUS
50.3 DAYSTAR
50.4 PBS WORLD
54.1 KAZA
54.2 PRAISE
54.3 VIETTV
54.4 S-CHNL
56.1 KDOC
56.2 ESNE
56.3 ME-TV
56.4 WORKS
56.5 KVLA
57.1 KJLA
57.2 UFACE
57.3 UNA
57.4 SET
57.5 STV
57.6 VBS
57.7 LSTV
57.8 IBC
57.9 ZWTV
57.10 ENT
57.11 VICTSON
57.12 VGMT
62.1 KRCA
62.2 HTTV
62.3 3
62.4 IMRGRAN
62.6 STVUSA
63.1 KBEH
63.2- 63.8

[Tim]

I scanned 55 channels in rainy weather over the weekend and Monday when everything was clear I scanned 96 channels.

I can't say about your channel 9 issue, but if you are getting fewer UHF stations with your 91XG when it rains, you might want to check this thread: http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=15162

[JGoodwin]

Thanks Tim, I'll keep that in mind. Next time I'm on the roof I'll look for the weep holes.

[ADTech]

Most likely, the difference in the wet vs dry reception was due to the soupy atmosphere and the wet terrain peaks out in front of you. The wet air will attenuated signals and reduce your fade margin and the wet terrain will slightly change how the signals diffract. Since your reception is barely holding onto the edge of the digital cliff by a few fingernails, it doesn't take very much change in propagation conditions to drop you off the edge.

Your channel 9 issue is with the other antenna. Either you'll have to search for and find a bit better spot for it or you're getting some kind of localized electrical/electronic interference that's masking its signal. A spectrum analyzer is the only effective tool for investigating that possibility.

[JGoodwin]

It looks like channels 9 will be a hit or miss channel.

With the strong winds coming up I added two 7' long pieces of electrical conduit, flattened both ends and bolted it to the roof to the mast. Since it's an eve mount they go from the middle of the mast to the roof on each side of the peak.

After I installed them my channel scan went from 93 to 54. I lost half the channels. Is there any stiff material that I can use for supports that won't interfere with my signal?