In the Sticks

[BigBean]

Howdy!

I've been a-lurkin' but came out of the sticks to see what you all would think.

Here's my report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dd2433647b6be11

The Terrain: Between two wooded ridges; within 40 miles of most transmitters.

The Setup: Outdoors mast, 20 - 30', within 10' of a chimney and FM antenna,
imperfect but would reduce cable length to TV; New England winters, so we burn.


Several questions:

Should I spring for an MXU59, an RCA ANT751, a 91XG, a Winegard of some stripe?

Preamp, Amp?

According to the report, we should be able to get The Big Three, Fox and at least one
PBS station.

I know the RCA gets rave reviews, but I think we're too far from NYC to get one station,
getTV aka WFUT, but I learned its transmitter is atop The Vampire State Building. Bummer.

Finally, The Rotator. I've read alot of quality issues in regards to the modern models
and don't want to spring for an antique or go nutz building my own. Frankly, making
a hand-operated one would be fine too. Any suggestions on GOOD electric ones or
plans for a manual one?


Thanks for a Great Forum,

BigBean

[BigBean]

Ooops ... forget to mention there's an outside chance we will split the signal
for an upstairs TV ... not set in stone and really just hope we get a signal for
the main TV.

[StephanieS]

Greetings BigBean,

Your antennas you mention (Ant751, MXU59, etc), I would use none of them. You'll notice you are in 1 or 2-edge conditions. In these situations it is often advisable to have an antenna with a wider surface (IE, an Antennas Direct DB8e, Channelmaster 4228) that can keep a lock on signal that might shift a bit.

Thus, if I were in your situation, I'd focus on Hartford exclusively. With a two antenna system successful reception of ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX and PBS is within reason.

Antenna 1: Antennas Direct DB8e. Point to magnetic 0 degrees. This antenna will be responsible for CBS, FOX, NBC and PBS.

Antenna 2: Antennacraft Y5710. Point to magnetic 276. This antenna will receive ABC.

Mount the DB8e on the top of your mast. Mount Y5710 about 4' below. Install on mast a RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp. Coax jump34 from DB8e will go to the UHF input, coax from Y5710 will go into VHF input. This will combine both antennas into one coax going into your home. In your home, have a two way signal splitter split the signal (so when the time comes, you can run a feed into the bedroom).

When doing testing though, it is always best to use the single lead coming down off the antenna system into the back of your TV. This sets a baseline for your performance as a system. If your first test is good coming off the antennas, and after you split the signal problems start, that gives you a good starting point to problem test.

The RCA ANT751 is a great little antenna. I own one. It's been in service two years now. For local stuff it does well. However, for your application it is the wrong antenna and would leave you disappointed. The ANT751 doesn't have much gain, nor does it have a large surface area for signal reception. This leaves it in the domain of best with stronger signals. As long as has a healthy signal to access, it'll do fine. Once you start dealing with weaker or terrain obstructed signals, it won't keep up. My general rule with the ANT751 is if you aren't line of sight or working below 20db signal strength signals, don't go for that antenna. I have an exceptional result with my ANT751 in reliably catch a 17db signal that is 55 miles and line of sight. The ANT751 is strictly a local, line of sight antenna.

Cheers.

[BigBean]

Cheers to you, Stephanie, thanks for your opinion!

It's a good thing I ran this setup by you folks first because I would've made a BiG mistake.
I'll snap up the DB8e right now and let you know the result once it's set up.

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!


BigBean

[BigBean]

A coupla more questions:

I can't find the Antennacraft Y5710. Is it the Y5713?

Also, since I'm pointing the 2nd antenna towards Hamden, I'd like to try for WZME Channel 42,
which has its transmitter almost right in line with WTNH though it's farther down in Shelton.
The problem is that WZME is UHF. I just saw this, the Antennacraft HBU33. Do you think this
model will pull both in? Are there any issues with mounting this below the bowtie?

Thanks!

[timgr]

A coupla more questions:

I can't find the Antennacraft Y5710. Is it the Y5713?

Also, since I'm pointing the 2nd antenna towards Hamden, I'd like to try for WZME Channel 42,
which has its transmitter almost right in line with WTNH though it's farther down in Shelton.
The problem is that WZME is UHF. I just saw this, the Antennacraft HBU33. Do you think this
model will pull both in? Are there any issues with mounting this below the bowtie?

Thanks!

I believe she must mean the Y5713. I presume you could use any of the three VHF high antennas from AntennaCraft on that page - the only difference being the dB gain that the larger or smaller antenna provides.

Usually the Y10713 gets recommended here, but I expect because WTNH is only 12 miles away, even though obstructed, the mid-sized model will do.

Regarding WZME, you might be able to pull it in with the HBU33, but that kinda messes up your plan to mix the VHF signal with the UHF signal using the TVPRAMP1R. The preamp expects the two inputs to be on different bandwidths, amplifies both and mixes them. I expect the VHF input for the RCA preamp will filter out any UHF signals, either by intentionally filtering the input signal, or because rf preamps just don't work outside of their design bandwidth. You could pick a different preamp with a broader bandwidth for the HBU33, and try mixing the signals, but the results will be unpredictable.

A similar plan for mixing two UHF antennas was discussed in another recent thread - http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=14812 - the experts here were skeptical, but the OP claims it works. IMO he was lucky to some degree. You could do the two-tuner solution with two separate UHF antennas if you want ... also discussed in that thread.

[StephanieS]

Yes, that was what I meant. Thank you.

Typing at 2:30am leaves some things to be desired!

I believe she must mean the Y5713. I presume you could use any of the three VHF high antennas from AntennaCraft on that page - the only difference being the dB gain that the larger or smaller antenna provides.

[BigBean]

Thanks, Tim! Yeah, you can tell I'm a newb. UHF, VHF ... d'Oh!

Can either of you recommend a preamp for such a mix? I saw a Channel Master that also had an
FM switch I may benefit from because of my FM antenna literally next to the spot I'm putting
these. Or will that screw things up?

Stephanie, OUCH! Don't lose sleep over lil' ol' us!

[timgr]

Thanks, Tim! Yeah, you can tell I'm a newb. UHF, VHF ... d'Oh!

Can either of you recommend a preamp for such a mix? I saw a Channel Master that also had an
FM switch I may benefit from because of my FM antenna literally next to the spot I'm putting
these. Or will that screw things up?

Stephanie, OUCH! Don't lose sleep over lil' ol' us!

Well, I'm not part of the industry, just an amateur that picks up a few pointers here and there, understands a little physics, and has a passing interest in radio. So I'm reluctant to recommend any products.

Plus, I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe you should read what I posted again. I am not recommending that you try and mix the signal from two UHF antennas. Or a VHF-UHF antenna, the HBU33, and a UHF only antenna like the DB8e.

You cannot mix two different UHF signals from different antennae and be certain of what will happen. At least, that is my understanding. Might work ... chances are good that it won't. The two signals may coexist, or they may clobber each other - they may add, or they may cancel, or one may add noise and no signal to the other. It all depends on the reception environment and the placement of the antennae. Hard to predict that.

Wrt the FM filter, I think you miss the point. The FM antenna beng near the TV antenna will only matter if they are so close that the antennae electrically couple. More than a few feet of separation and they will not. If they couple, the sensitivity of both antennae will drop.

Normally these preamps will have an FM filter so that strong local FM radio signals do not overwhelm the preamp simply by their relative amplitude. FM radio covers part of the spectrum between VHF-low TV and VHF-high TV, so the preamp will filter the FM signals out of the signal before the signal is amplified.

[BigBean]

I see what you're saying about the signal mixing ... I wonder if it's worth trying Stephanie's
plan and skewing it slightly west to pick up WZME, but that may screw up Hartford.
Frankly, I care most about PBS, WZME, CBS and everyone else follows, in that order.

Your points are helping ... so there's no real benefit to getting that CM amp then ...
I'm going to assume that individual preamps per setup while applying a coupler after
the power source may work.

[BigBean]

Can I point the DB8e in two directions to get MeTV? Or do you think the power of all panels
is necessary to pull in just Hartford? I just learned the DB8e panels can be pointed in
multiple directions.

[Charles]

The OP also asked for recommendations on rotors, I am also interested in seeing what makes and models should be considered. In a different thread, I was pointed to this one, http://www.nteinc.com/antenna-rotors.php?a=28, are there others?

I am aware of the arguments, both pro and con, concerning rotors and feel that in my situation the pros overshadow the cons.

[timgr]

Can I point the DB8e in two directions to get MeTV? Or do you think the power of all panels
is necessary to pull in just Hartford? I just learned the DB8e panels can be pointed in
multiple directions.

It would be helpful to specify which call sign or real channel you want to add.

That said, all it will cost you to try it is a trip to the roof to change the aim of one of your panels. You could probably do some BOTEC based on the dBm strengths of the subject stations and the change in the sensitivity of the antenna when you reaim the panels... but I expect it's less time and more accurate just to try it.

[BigBean]

Hey Tim!

Yesh, I'm too busy / lazy to look into this more closely which is why I'm leaning on you guys ...
that station is WZME, transmitting from Shelton, CT. But I done well by you folks and I'm
going to finally get this setup and be done with it after yakking about it for two years.
I fully anticipate problems and if it means I gotta roost on our roof several hours to get
it right THE FIRST TIME, so be it.

Now, since I can't send beer through the mail, I can offer this in thanks:

GREAT beers to enjoy now:

Ommegang's "Scythe and Sickle"
Allegash's "Tripel Ale"
Victory's "Hop Devil Ale"
Inbev's "Leffe" and "Hoegaarden"
Spaten's "Oktoberfest"

Later,

Victory's "Storm King Stout"
Smuttynose "Porter"
Anchor Steam "Porter"

I also unnerstand Vermont's "Fiddlehead" brewery is particularly awesome,
BUT, you gotta get it there! Ugh.

Cheers!

[BigBean]

Thank you folks! Your recommendations bore tasty fruit:

Posting the DB8 4' high on a temporary post out in the front yard,
pointing it imprecisely, we picked up 31 digital stations and 2 analog!
I'm not sure just yet if we picked up our New Haven ABC affiliate,
a VHF channel ( yeah, I know we shouldn't get it ) but we got all
channels on our wish list plus several that we thought had no chance
of receiving:

GetTV, The Works, and up to three PBS stations.

What's really cool is the possibility of getting GetTV from Manhattan,
well over the antenna's 70 mile specs – and the antenna's not even
mounted on the roof yet! ( I've checked on Get's transmitter, the only
info I have is it's on the Empire State Building. The station is in Smithtown
New York, so I assume the signal may be "goosed" there but I've not seen
anything online indicating such. ) We're also picking up PBS out of Springfield
Mass, a transmitter up in Holyoke. We're very positively impressed with our
results thus far. Even if nothing improves on the roof, it's all good. In fact,
there's a chance some signals may suffer once the reflectors are more in
line with tree leaves ... who knows?

We can't thank you enough in your guidance. Cheers!

[tomfoolery]

What's really cool is the possibility of getting GetTV from Manhattan, well over the antenna's 70 mile specs – and the antenna's not even mounted on the roof yet! ( I've checked on Get's transmitter, the only info I have is it's on the Empire State Building. The station is in Smithtown New York, so I assume the signal may be "goosed" there but I've not seen anything online indicating such. )
Redo the input map with your location but don't create the TVFool report. At the digital station listing at the bottom-right, click on the little button next to WFTY, and you'll see the heat map of relative transmitter power (or NM - don't know which), which is clearly originating in Smithtown, Long Island. They seem to identify themselves as FUT (on rabbitears.info), so it's a safe bet that's where you're getting that signal. Which is good for you, as even with a 200 ft antenna height input, WFUT from the Empire State Building (real 30, virt. 68.1) doesn't show at all on the TVF report.

[KBEX]

nice list bigbean I was up in Ommegang brewery this summer, cool place, awesome beers, grabbed a couple of Games of thrones fire and blood ales as souvenirs.

I agree with tomfoolery,I bet your pulling in GetTV from across the L.I sound as well , which is a subchannel of the spanishstation. Are you getting channel 55/10 WLNY as well? It has an excellent CBS NY news cast at 9 and great sports on the weekends.

[BigBean]

Tom: Thanks for the clarification, if I recall right, I did do a check on that last year
but forgot ... sounds familiar. One can only get that sort of info at sites as this which
is very helpful since everyone else lists WFUT coming from Manhattan.

KBEX: I've seen those and I'll try 'em. Yep, Ommegang is my fave new brewery,
and there's others to seek: Allagash and Fiddleheads, tho the latter is only had in
VT at this time.

Thanks for the head's up on WLNY, I'll try to aim for it.

[BigBean]

The GetTV confusion: WFUT is atop The Vampire State Bldg, WFTY, the Smithtown affiliate
for Get and Telemundo, has its transmitter on the Island. Didn't realize there were two
call signs.

Signed,

Slow Learner

[tomfoolery]

Check out the last two entries on rabbitears.info. http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wfty They both identify themselves at "FUT" in the last column

[johnodon]

I was heistant to buy the ANT751 since I am 30 miles from my towers and every single channel I can receive (except for one) is 2Edge: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dd243a1803bb42a

But I took a chance and mounted an ANT751 in my attic @ about 22 feet. The only stations that give me any kind of grief at all are RCH2 (60%) and RCH6 (86%). Technically, I should really struggle with both of these since they are lo-VHF but that little antenna has done me right! :)

All other channels (all UHF) come in at 95% - 100%.

John

[tomfoolery]

But I took a chance and mounted an ANT751 in my attic @ about 22 feet.
Which begs the obvious suggestion to try it above the roof. Between attenuation and multipath inside the attic, and being so close to reliable even though it's not made for such long wavelengths, outdoors just might nail it down.

[Tower Guy]

I'd try a CS 600 antenna for 2 and 6. Add it to your ANT 751 using a HLSJ or UVSJ. The HLSJ would add only the two and six signals. The UVSJ would use the VHF section of the CS 600 for channels 7-13 instead of the ANT 751.

[BigBean]

Update:

Turns out I had to sacrifice WFTY, GetTV, in order to pull in WTNH
and WZME. Again, WTNH is VHF, so it's nice to get an old CT mainstay.
Still have artifacts on MeTV but I'll have to live with that for now. Went
on the roof AGAIN yesterday to fix but I screwed up my Hartford reception,
as WFSB now suffers occasional artifacts that didn't happen before.

Once I stopped pointing the second array less south I killed GetTV and Escape.
The GOOD thing is those stupid shopping channels are gone.

Kinda wondering if pointing the arrays higher than the horizon line will improve
reception? See, there's that annoying hill to the west ...

Thanks again!

[KBEX]

It's amazing what a couple of degrees can do,strange things occur with the antennas one night bout a month ago, I was tinkering around in the attic still trying to pull in channel 3 wfsb, during the rescan I managed to grab 55 channels and I ended up getting channel 2 cbs out of NYC which is 83 miles away as oppose to WFSB which is only 36 miles away. I had spanish channels, asian channels, gov /edu channels, multiple, pbs, this and get tvs,stations. I have no idea how I was able to grab all those, it was around 7 at night, leaves still on the trees only 25 feet up or so inside the attic.

I had to kinda postpone my project a bit and wait til the spring to mount the antenna, couple of things came up. So for now I have it just up in the attic and still have cable.

You using a preamp, if so what model? I had a titan 2 high gain from amazon and did not notice any difference in the signal meter when it was attached and when it wasnt attached, so I sent it back.

[Canadianeh]

I ended up getting channel 2 cbs out of NYC which is 83 miles away as oppose to WFSB which is only 36 miles away. I had spanish channels, asian channels, gov /edu channels, multiple, pbs, this and get tvs,stations. I have no idea how I was able to grab all those, it was around 7 at night, leaves still on the trees only 25 feet up or so inside the attic..

I think this may have been atmospheric / tropo last night due to the wind storm (assuming you had the same?). I live in north-central Vermont and was able to almost get a lock on a couple of Montreal stations (75 miles away) with a cheezy indoor Zenith ZHDTV1 UHF antenna last evening around 7-8pm. I'd be curious to know if you're still able to pick up those NYC stations today, and if so, which ones - I'd like to see the TVFool report to compare to my future reality for when I move further north this weekend :)

[BigBean]

KBEX: An RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp. I followed Stephanie's post to the letter.

Where are you? I think Canadianeh has a point, an odd situation similar to the days
when Connecticut AM stations could pick up Ohio or further west during storms.

Now, we've had this setup for three months and it's been pretty good. I like to let
things sit and see how they work before tinkering. Now I'm considering an amp to
improve signal pull as some of our stations are still weak: WZME has been tried in
different positions and as the pros here have argued, TV signals like to move around
a bit. So some nights are good and some nights not so much. Last night, Svengoolie
came in at 30% strength and less. Again, our problem is that we're in a fringe
location situation exacerbated by being between two ridges with lots of trees. WFSB
and two others come in at 80 - 85%, so I need to tweak the signals of the weaker
stations without overpowering the stronger.

What to do? Thanks!

[GroundUrMast]

Consider that an increase in signal strength does not automatically translate into an increase in signal quality. Most TV tuners that provide a 'signal strength' indicator are actually reporting some expression of the digital error rate which can be made worse if distortion and noise from an amplifier is added.

Amplifiers depend on a relatively clean signal from the antenna... The amplifiers job is to 'push' a stronger copy of that signal through the losses in cable and splitters down stream. Amplifiers can not/do not 'pull' signal from the antenna or air.

[BigBean]

G: Thanks, makes good sense. Any ideas?

[GroundUrMast]

My standard fall back position is that reliable reception starts with the antenna, it location and aim.

The active electronic parts of a good quality tuner should generate relatively little noise... Which means that a consumer grade preamplifier is not likely to improve the overall noise margin of the complete system if 50' or less cable is used to connect the antenna to one TV. So, the following test is useful when trying to decide if an amplifier can improve reception at the TV or not. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=13646

But, if the antenna, test coax and tuner can not produce reliable reception during the test just mentioned, one needs to be open to the possibility that the antenna may not have the needed gain or directivity, and/or, the location or aim needs to be changed. It's also possible that some source of interference is present... In some cases filters such as FM traps or equivalent devices tuned to other frequency ranges may help... But if the interference is from another station operating on the same frequency, no filter will help because it would also block the desired station's signal.

Once you have proven that you have a reliable signal at the antenna terminals it's time to turn your attention toward getting that signal to the TVs... That task may or may not require the aid of amplification.

[BigBean]

G: Thanks for that. Methinks that while good TV reception is a sub-noble pursuit,
I treasure my neck more. I'll put up with the scratches and dings for awhile before
I attempt to replace it. It's great just to have "60 Minutes" and "Frontline" again!