Help with reception in Wisconsin

[lets go red]

I need help with choosing a setup for my location in a rural town. We already receive WQOW (ABC and The CW), WEUX (FOX), and WHWC (PBS) with a RCA ant800 mounted about 8 ft high (agl) facing NNE. But it would be really nice to get the other two of the big 4 (NBC and CBS). The location is in a mature mid-century neighborhood with mostly single story homes and does not have a chimney.

Cost is a factor and not drilling any holes in the roof is a must as it was recently replaced.

TV Fool report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dd24343428052a2

Any and all suggestions would be awesome!

[GroundUrMast]

The small ANT-800 is doing remarkably better than one would anticipate. Your report indicates the need for a 'deep-fringe' full size antenna system. The ANT-800 is primarily a UHF only antenna. In stronger signal areas, it may be able to receive VHF signals, but it's no surprise that the weak signal on real CH-11 is not seen. Another significant factor can be seen when you click on the call sign of a given station on your TV Fool report... There appears to be hills near your location that block your line of sight toward the TV transmitters.

Avoiding obstructions such as trees and structures is going to play an important part in obtaining reliable reception. If I were to mount a tripod to my roof, I would prefer that the roof be new. Presuming proper technique and hardware is used, a new roof is far less likely to have problems than an older one due to installation of antenna hardware. New roofing will be pliable and capable of self sealing around fasteners, though the correct sealing materials should be included as a part of the installation. Ground mounted masts and towers along with eave brackets are another option to consider.(Enough of 'my two cents' on this.)

I'd consider a full size system, my 'go to' combination is currently an Antennas Direct DB8E UHF antenna + Antennacraft Y10713 High-VHF antenna + RCA TVPRAMP1R preamplifier.

[teleview]

+=>

Install a Separate antenna with separate amplifier and separate coax and separate splitters and separate etc. , that is not connected to the other antenna system.

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Install a.

http://www.antennacraft.net.

HBU55 antenna aimed at about 299 degree magnetic compass direction.

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Install a.

http://www.antennacraft.net.

10G201 preamplifier.

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For 1 Tv connected use No splitter.

For 2 Tv's connected use a , Holland Electronics , HFS-2D , 2 way splitter.

For 3 Tv's connected use a , Holland Electronics , HFS-3D , 3 way splitter.

Buy the , HFS-2D , HFS-3D , splitters at.

http://www.hollandelectronics.com , or , http://www.amazon.com.

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At each Tv location that the signal of the HBU55 antenna is routed to.

Install a , Tuner/Tuner Recorder. And connect to the Tv.

http://www.epvision.com.

[lets go red]

The small ANT-800 is doing remarkably better than one would anticipate. Your report indicates the need for a 'deep-fringe' full size antenna system. The ANT-800 is primarily a UHF only antenna. In stronger signal areas, it may be able to receive VHF signals, but it's no surprise that the weak signal on real CH-11 is not seen. Another significant factor can be seen when you click on the call sign of a given station on your TV Fool report... There appears to be hills near your location that block your line of sight toward the TV transmitters.
Even more odd is that WQOW came in slightly better on my GE 24734-V2 Millennium (bunny-ear/ loop) Antenna (http://www.target.com/p/ge-millennium-tv-antenna/-/A-12269503) that I tossed out on the patio on a whim.

Avoiding obstructions such as trees and structures is going to play an important part in obtaining reliable reception. If I were to mount a tripod to my roof, I would prefer that the roof be new. Presuming proper technique and hardware is used, a new roof is far less likely to have problems than an older one due to installation of antenna hardware. New roofing will be pliable and capable of self sealing around fasteners, though the correct sealing materials should be included as a part of the installation. Ground mounted masts and towers along with eave brackets are another option to consider.(Enough of 'my two cents' on this.) Never thought of this before. I remember back when I was young, a family friend had to replace his entire roof because of problems stemming from a bad antenna install.

I'd consider a full size system, my 'go to' combination is currently an Antennas Direct DB8E UHF antenna + Antennacraft Y10713 High-VHF antenna + RCA TVPRAMP1R preamplifier. If we did it this way could we use the ANT-800 in place of the DB8e? (save a little bit of $)

[GroundUrMast]

...

If we did it this way could we use the ANT-800 in place of the DB8e? (save a little bit of $)
You could certainly try adding just the Y10713. It would improve your signal strength and quality on real channels 9 & 11. It would also allow you to aim the ANT-800 for best reception of UHF signals with no regard to the VHF signals. If you don't manage to get WCCO to come in reliably with the ANT-800, you can step up to a full size UHF antenna at any time.

There are alternates to the DB8E;

The older Antennas Direct DB8 & 91XG designs
Antennacraft MXU-59 & U8000
Channel Master CM4228
Winegard HD9095
And various others

All but the DB8E are designed to cover up to real CH-69 which is no longer used for TV service. The FCC sold the bandwidth of real channels 52 through 69 to cell phone and other interests. The DB8E is optimized to cover a narrower range of frequencies so it has a slight edge in performance over all the older designs.

If you add only the Y10713 you would also need a preamp such as the RCA TVPRAMP1R. This unit has two inputs, one for UHF and another for VHF. I would set the preamp to use only one input (there are two switches, one to turn on a filter to block FM signals which can cause interference, and the other that selects combined or separate input. when set to 'combined' the input port labeled 'UHF' will accept both UHF and VHF signals.) I would mount the outdoor preamplifier head at the Y10713 location, and the power supply unit in a protected area with access to a power outlet, adjacent to the power outlet that serves the ANT-800 power supply. I would use a passive UHF/VHF combiner to combine the two antenna feeds after they have passed through their power insertion blocks. You can not mix the two power sources on a common down lead.

This install would be more straight forward if you used a passive UHF antenna and a passive H-VHF, because you would only need to power one preamp, the dual input TVPRAMP1R. As a result, only one down lead would be required. In this case the TVPRAMP1R would be set for 'separate' UHF and VHF inputs.

[lets go red]

Thanks for the suggestions GroundUrMast & teleview! I'm surprised at the amount of options that exist for the situation.

On a side note, KMSP is now on UHF (ch. 29, virt 9.1 I believe) as of this past June: http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/25820097/rescan-how-to-get-fox-9-over-the-air-on-uhf

[lets go red]

Just ordered the RCA preamp, I am probably going to pair it with the ANT-800 for the time being. This project, unfortunately, is gonna have to be built bit-by-bit due to finances.

Anyway, my question is when mounting the preamp do you put it before or after the grounding block?

[GroundUrMast]

The preamp is housed in a unit designed for outdoor exposure. It will provide the best results if located near the antenna. Also included with the preamp is a separate power supply, which is intended for mounting in a protected (normally indoors) area with access to an outlet. The power is coupled into the coax to be sent up to the outdoor unit.

As I mentioned earlier, the ANT-800 has a functionally similar arrangement. If you retain the ANT-800 for the time being, you'll not be able to power the ANT-800 and the new preamp via the same coax down lead. The two antennas need separate down-leads and grounding blocks.

Once the signal from each antenna is output from their respective power insertion devises, they can be combined using a UHF/VHF signal joiner. The output of the UVSJ can then be cabled a single coax run to the TV.

Radio Shack #15-2586, http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=uvsj and http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-EU385CF-Combiner-Connection/dp/B008PBTPN4 are examples of passive UHF/VHF combiners.

[lets go red]

Thanks, what if I replace the very tiny and rather weak 12v in-line amp with the new pre-amp system? (Since the ANT-800 is the only antenna in use at the moment.)

[GroundUrMast]

The ANT-800 preamp circuitry is built into the outdoor antenna assembly. The devise that connects power to the coax is not an amplifier, but only power supply/insertion components. If you remove the power supply of the ANT-800, the preamp circuitry inside the antenna will block nearly all signals.

If you try to power both preamps from one power supply, you risk sending the wrong voltage to one amplifier and/or overloading the one power supply that was designed power only one amplifier circuit. Even if both power supplies are of identical voltage and polarity... And have the capacity to drive two amplifiers (an assumption I would not make), you would need to have a UHF/VHF combiner that passes power on both the UHF and VHF ports. I don't believe there are any that are designed to do so.

I'm sorry, but the design of the ANT-800 removes the flexibility we desire/need in this application.

[lets go red]

After some thought, the HBU-55 or HD7697P is most likely what I'm going to purchase (with KMSP now on UHF, getting a separate antenna solely for one channel doesn't seem financially prudent). We are planing on keeping the ANT-800 in its current location and will use an A-B splitter when viewing on that system.

What are some good, cost effective mounting methods that can clear the 30-35'ish foot neighborhood tree line (the roof is not a possibility)?

[ADTech]

cost effective

Make firewood out of the tree. Anything else is going to cost more.

;)

[lets go red]

Ok, what are some mounting options that won't make basic cable seem inexpensive?

I'm sort of tossing around the idea of mounting it in the backyard by bracing a thicker gauge pole to a solid wood clothesline post and going from there.

Also, should I even try aiming at WKBT Ch. 8 as the south is mostly clear of trees and the hills are a about two+ miles off in the distance?

Updated radar plot: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dd24300c33e7023

[lets go red]

Ok, what are some mounting options that won't make basic cable seem inexpensive?

Also, should I even try aiming at WKBT Ch. 8 as the south is mostly clear of trees and the hills are a about two+ miles off in the distance?

Updated radar plot: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dd24300c33e7023 Any suggestions?

[ADTech]

The odds of picking up that channel 8 are somewhere between minimal and nil.

[timgr]

Ok, what are some mounting options that won't make basic cable seem inexpensive?

I'm sort of tossing around the idea of mounting it in the backyard by bracing a thicker gauge pole to a solid wood clothesline post and going from there.

Also, should I even try aiming at WKBT Ch. 8 as the south is mostly clear of trees and the hills are a about two+ miles off in the distance?

Updated radar plot: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dd24300c33e7023

I kinda doubt you can get to 35' using the clothesline post.

The clear alternative is to buy an extendable mast, mount it in an open area on your property, and then use guy wires to keep it up. 35' is certainly achievable this way.

How high is your highest gable peak?

You could also use gable end peak to secure a mast that extends to the ground on a pad, and then extend the mast unsupported up beyond the roof peak. This would not penetrate your roof surface. But the height you can extend up unsupported is not more than about 10' I would presume. You could go higher if you could figure a way to add some guy wires without putting holes in your roof. It just depends on what you have to work with.

http://www.rohnnet.com/files/telescoping_mast.jpg

http://www.rohnnet.com/rohn-telescoping-masts

[Stereocraig]

There should plenty of people, that would be willing to GIVE you their old unused tower, in exchange for your dismantling labor.

I have two and all they cost, were the 60# bags of ready mix, the rotors and the antennas.

[lets go red]

Thanks for suggestions everyone, many mounting options to consider!

The HBU-55 is temporarily on a piece of metal conduit about 15 ft up next to the wooden post and it is picking up WEAU (real 38) more clear & stable then KARE (real 11). This is surprising because TVFool, RabbitEars, and the FCC tool show ch 38 as not receivable.

No dice, so far, on a CBS whatsoever (WCCO and WKBT), however.

[lets go red]

UPDATE: KMSP is still using VHF at the moment, on virtual 9.9 . So both VHF stations out of The Cities come in, but none of the UHF. I'm guessing the neighborhood tree line is negatively affecting the signal(s). WEAU is still coming in strong.

[lets go red]

UPDATE II: Still no luck with a CBS.

The antenna is currently catching WHWC (real 27) stably, no matter the direction the it is facing. (I presume this is somewhat neat considering the transmitter is 30 mi away with an edge signal.)

WQOW and WEUX are receivable off the back end of the aerial but they cut in and out occasionally.

Also, I need to say DigitalStream converter boxes are quite good at channel finding, much better then the Vizio and Samsung tv(s) in the house.

[lets go red]

Complete newbie question: Are there any special winterizing steps that have to be done with an antenna system?

Any tips for receiving a CBS or is it a lost cause until the leaves completely fall?

Also, what could explain why WEAU comes in stable even in a driving rain when the report said it was all but catchable?

[Stereocraig]

Just make sure that your connections are moisture tight.

If any tubes, or pipes collect water, make sure they have a way to drain, as to avoid freezing and splitting.

[lets go red]

Thanks for tips! Will definitely be electric taping the heck out out of every connection, especially after last winter's weather.

Any tips for receiving a CBS or is it a lost cause until the leaves completely fall?

Also, what could explain why WEAU comes in stable even in a driving rain when the report said it was all but catchable? Any help?

[ADTech]

Also, what could explain why WEAU comes in stable even in a driving rain when the report said it was all but catchable?

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth when the horse is doing what it is supposed to.

There are substantial limits to the accuracy of the software simulation. The final determinant is to see what works when you actually get metal up in the air and test for a long duration, perhaps a full year so that you get a full cycle of atmospheric conditions over the seasons.

Rainfall itself has very little effect on UHF signal propagation. That doesn't become relevant until you get up into the microwave or satellite frequencies due to the size differential between the signal wavelength and water droplet size.

[GroundUrMast]

Thanks for tips! Will definitely be electric taping the heck out out of every connection, especially after last winter's weather.

...

Vinyl electrical tape will not keep moisture out of a connection. You will have better results using a mastic type tape such as Coax-Seal or Scotch 2228. I only use vinyl tape as a top coat to protect the soft tacky mastic tape from dirt and UV.

[lets go red]

Does anyone know how to manually enter ATSC channels on a VIZIO E422AR? My Google-fu is failing me.

[lets go red]

What I receive now that winter is here...

By Nielson DMA, in no particular order (not including diginets):

Eau Claire- La Crosse (Technically my "home" market area.):

WHWC- PBS (rf 27): Stable no matter what, not weather affected. (I frequently use this channel to make sure everything is hooked up right and working.)

WQOW- ABC & The CW (rf 15): Stable when aimed at and can be caught off the backside when temp is above 50°F.

WEUX- FOX (rf 49): Stable when aimed at, however seems to be subject to multi-path. (WEUX had ghosting issues back in the analog era.) Can be caught off the backside (not stably) when it is above 25-30°F.
(The station is very clear on the ANT-800 though.)

WEAU- NBC (rf 38): Stable when aimed in the general direction of the tower, not weather affected.

WKBT- CBS (rf 8): Normally stable during the overnight- morning period(s). It can sometimes be caught during the mid-day and evening, as well.


Minneapolis- Saint Paul (The more stations from this market, the better. IMHO):

KARE- NBC (rf 11): Mostly stable but it is very directional, can be affected by wind.

KMSP- FOX (rf 9): Stable when aimed in the general direction of the tower, not usually weather affected.

WCCO- CBS (rf 32): Can be stable below 30°F, subject to random, complete drop outs (w/ little or no pixelation). Also tends be receivable whenever there is a weather front coming out of W to NW.

KSTP- ABC (rf 35): Can be stable below 40°F, subject to random, complete drop outs (w/ some pixelation). Also tends be receivable whenever there is a weather front coming out of W to NW. PSIP info is usually picked up whenever its below 50°F, but no A/V.

KSTC- Ind. (rf 45): Usually a pixelated mess when received, always below 40°F. Also tends be receivable whenever there is a weather front coming out of W to NW.

KTCA- PBS (rf 34): Hardest to receive station out the Twin Cities. Comes in only when it wants too.

KTCI- tpt (rf 23): Second hardest station to receive. Comes in only when it wants too.

WFTC- MyTV (& FOX 9 simul.) (rf 29): Usually a pixelated mess when received, always below 40°F. Also tends be receivable whenever there is a weather front coming out of W to NW.

WUCW- The CW (rf 22): Can be stable below 35-40°F, subject to random, complete drop outs (w/ some pixelation). Also tends be receivable whenever there is a weather front coming out of W to NW. PSIP info is usually picked up whenever its below 55-60°F, but no A/V.

________________________________________________________________________________ _______________

That about sums it up at this point and it took a while to complete this exhaustive list.

What do you all out there think? Any tips that can be gleamed from this list?

[Tim]

Vinyl electrical tape will not keep moisture out of a connection. You will have better results using a mastic type tape such as Coax-Seal or Scotch 2228. I only use vinyl tape as a top coat to protect the soft tacky mastic tape from dirt and UV.

I highly recommend silicone fusing tape for sealing antenna connectors. I use it outdoors on ham radio antenna connectors and it provides a perfect seal without being sticky or tacky. After about 24 hours it fuses to itself and becomes one solid piece. You can easily slit it to remove it and it leaves behind no sticky mess. http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-010683 It is also available at Home Depot, on eBay and Amazon.