Difficult location 15 miles west of Seattle

[kenj66]

I appreciate the resources provided here and the volunteers so willing to help. Retired IT guy here. No stranger to technical issues but I am new to OTA TV.

First question: I am not familiar with Real vs Virtual TV channels. Why can't channel numbers increment sequentially as they did in the analog days? It seems really odd that my old channel 5 is now on UHF 48.

Second question: is there any economical (cheap!) way to measure channel strength in real time? That would solve so many problems right away! Pro gear is out of my price range. (A cheap tuner might work)

Third question: How do you accurately indicate signal problems in a digital system? The signal strength indicators on my two TVs seem rather useless since anything less than 85 percent is simply not watchable. The three channels I do get read a solid 100 percent yet the picture and audio are somewhat impacted by sporadic loss of audio and macro-blocking.

I am located only about 15 miles due east of Seattle but there is a significant ridge in between. The ridge is less than two miles away so I am in rather deep shadow. I am using the Monoprice HDA-5700 amplified antenna which is pointed due east to the Seattle cluster of major network transmitters. It is mounted 23 feet above street level on my roof. I have 50 feet of brand new quad shield RG-6 running to the entry point for the house cabling. The power for the antenna is inserted there before being connected to the two way splitter and the existing ~50 foot built in house cables. I lease the house and I doubt the HOA would allow a full sized array.

I do receive KOMO-TV 38 (4.1) and the position of the antenna with 100 percent signal strength correlates correctly with the coverage map. I do get occasional "stuttering" though, which is disconcerting and not fun to watch.

I am not picking up any other channels out of Seattle except for 33.1 on one TV which is surprising since the signal is coming in from 18 degrees south of where the antenna is pointed and - I really don't care about ION TV.

I suspect the real issue here is channels 13.1 and 20.1 which are 150 degrees off axis from my antenna, are line of sight, but come in 100 percent anyway. Can my amplified antenna be overloaded by those two?

I would like to pick up the NBC, CBS and PBS affiliates but wonder why I do get ABC (KOMO) and not any of them.

The TV Signal Analysis Results are here.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de1c68f62c268ee

Monoprice HDA05700 amplified antenna.
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=109&cp_id=10901&cs_id=1090102&p_id=4730&seq=1&format=2

Photo of my installation:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxYAW8HezI5sRTU3Qmo5U1N6eDQ/edit?usp=sharing

[GroundUrMast]

Real and virtual channels are confusing to a lot of people. One of the reasons that stations changed was that they wanted to continue their analog operations on their established frequency while building and testing the new and completely separate digital transmitter facility. Once built, shifting the new transmitter to the old channel was cost prohibitive in most cases. There is also the value of 'brand'... a broadcaster has a great deal of investment in their name. (The broadcaster wanted to avoid the confusion to their viewers that would occur if they suddenly changed from “KING 5 News” to “KING 48 News”) Another reason for the change is that the UHF frequencies have less problems with interference than the lower frequency VHF channels. Finally, the concept of virtual channels was made necessary by the desire to multiplex several programs on each real channel.

When choosing an antenna, use the real channel number listed in your TV Fool report to guide the decision regarding the type. Antennas have no awareness of virtual channels. Only when the signal arrives at the tuner does the signal get broken down to a point where virtual channels become relevant.

Because you are in a bit of a hole so to speak, you need an antenna that is directional and has a significant amount of passive gain. I'd suggest a full size solution such as the combination of an Antennas Direct 91XG + Antennacraft Y10713 + RCA TVPRAMP1R. For best results, avoid a mounting location that forces you to aim through trees or buildings if possible.

[tomfoolery]

I lease the house and I doubt the HOA would allow a full sized array.

I think the FCC may beg to differ. Except under some narrow circumstances, the HOA has no authority to restrict your installation, including on rental properties.

Telecommunications Act Of 1996 Guide in plain english (http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule)

[kenj66]

Wow! So this is nothing that a ten foot Yagi wouldn't solve. Thanks for the education and antenna suggestions. They seem like fine equipment.

I will re-ask what would make reception on one channel "stutter" (periodic dropouts - I don't know what the appropriate terminology is) even though it has 100 percent signal strength on both TVs? Reason for asking is it seems I could spend hundreds of dollars to get the very best equipment and still have stuttering.

Also, I can see dropping out distinctly poor channels from displaying on the TV but if I have a channel with 25 percent signal strength it ought to show on the TV signal strength meter anyway. A marginal channel indication would help determine if spending the time and money to improve the antenna system worthwhile. That's why I asked if inexpensive signal strength tuners are available.

[ADTech]

what would make reception on one channel "stutter" (periodic dropouts - I don't know what the appropriate terminology is) even though it has 100 percent signal strength on both TVs?

Amplifier overloading or multi-path. Either will cause it.

Your Monoprice antenna contains a built-in amplifier of unknown performance characteristics. You have two full power stations very close by with unimpeded signal paths that have substantial potential to put most amps into intermodulation distortion or compression. You're on the back side of a 20-50 dB attenuator called a "hill" using an antenna with no ability to focus on receiving signals from one direction.

Okay, now you know the complications of your location. You will need a very directional antenna with strong rejection off the back (or expensive suppression filtering for the two strong stations) along with a properly selected pre-amp. The antenna(s) must be mounted to give the clearest possible line of sight back towards downtown and should likely be tiled up and aimed at your visible horizon.

Reliable meters or analyzers aren't cheap unless you get lucky on eBay. A good one will cost several hundred dollars.

[kenj66]

Thank you, ADTech. You have "spelled out" the situation nicely. The truth has finally dawned about the complications of my location.

The Monoprice antenna is quite directional as I found when orienting it and without a giant attenuator in the way it looks to be a good performer. The FOX station nearby is 133 degrees from the "beam" heading but puts out a big signal and is only 9 miles away LOS so the suspicions about overloading are likely.

Dang! Removing the stuttering and getting more stations may cost more than it's worth - or at least more than "momma" thinks it's worth.

:cool: Someone needs to design a spectrum analyzer smartphone app that connects via the USB charging cord to a TV tuner dongle. Hook it up at the base of the antenna mast and "dial in" the antenna direction, favoring the preferred channels. Perhaps someone could make a few bucks on this! You're welcome. :)

[ADTech]

Someone needs to design a spectrum analyzer smartphone app that connects via the USB charging cord to a TV tuner dongle.

Well, you can do that in Linux on computer. Skipped my mind earlier. Costs only a few dozen dollars plus time and a computer. It's called an SDR (Software Defined Radio) analyzer. They're not very fast, but they're inexpensive. I don't know off hand if any of the regulars here have talked about it, though.

[kenj66]

Interesting! I did a search and found the idea is not new and solutions are getting cheaper all the time. Try this link: http://www.rtl-sdr.com/about-rtl-sdr/

[ADTech]

Yep, that's the one.

[kenj66]

I just noticed the forum moderator is in Seattle. Hello, from your neighbor Ken!

Looking at the analysis map and the desired stations it looks like I could use just the suggested UHF, Antennas Direct 91XG, and forget the VHF antenna. I plan to replace the fence rail mast with some genuine 18 gauge mast and guy wires - a 93 inch long array will need beefy support. (Why is mast steel so expensive? Does anyone know where to get it local and cheap?)

I plan to try it without a preamp first. I have a PCT MA-B1015-1A-VG pre-amp on hand (long story) and if it appears I need it I will also get a channel 13 inline trap to prevent swamping the TV tuners.

Thanks again for your help. :)

Ken

[GroundUrMast]

Yes, hi neighbor :)

If you omit the VHF antenna, you will very possibly eliminate the need for the CH-13 filter. The built-in balun of the 91XG will pass some VHF, but at lower levels.

I've used chain-link fence 'top rail' from Home Depot. It's 1 3/8" in diameter, and has a swedged end. I believe the price is about $12 / piece.

[kenj66]

(I couldn't get the quote check-mark to work so I did it manually)
If you omit the VHF antenna, you will very possibly eliminate the need for the CH-13 filter. The built-in balun of the 91XG will pass some VHF, but at lower levels.
Thanks! Good to know.

I've used chain-link fence 'top rail' from Home Depot. It's 1 3/8" in diameter, and has a swedged end. I believe the price is about $12 / piece.
The fence rail shown in my photo allows wobbles with a breeze. That doesn't seem good to me. It is 8 feet long and, due to the roof pitch, only about a foot of it is fastened by the mounting clamps. So, the antenna is about 7 feet above the roof. An expensive yagi deserves better so I ordered two 4 1/2 foot masts from Walmart at 8 bucks a piece. I'll get the guy hardware from the local Rad Shack.

[GroundUrMast]

Any time I stack mast, I presume that each section will need to be guyed. Here's a somewhat hard to find piece of hardware that is useful in such situations, http://www.3starinc.com/adjustable_3-way_down_guy_ring_for_1-14_inch_antenna_mast.html

[kenj66]

Thanks for pointing that out. I just looked on the Rad Shack website and noticed they don't carry that item.

I'm using two 4 1/2 foot sections. Seems a little overkill to have two sets of guy wires for that. The mast will be 9 1/2 feet tall. The first foot will be in the eave mount, leaving 8 1/2 feet. I will put that ring 1 foot below the array at about the 7 1/2 foot mark. Seems adequate, no?

[GroundUrMast]

I was thinking of 10' sections in my previous post. I would not expect to guy the lowest section.

[kenj66]

I just got the XG91 put together. It is awesome. But who wrote the instructions? There was a lot of trial and error.

Too late to get on the roof tonight.

[kenj66]

Since I still don't have my new mast I installed the XG91 on the existing fence rail just above the roof. It has been fun dialing in the new stations. Unamplified I now get 5 additional stations including KZJO, KONG and KING (NBC). Thanks for suggesting such a great antenna!

Plugging in the PCT line amp KIRO (CBS) shows up but unreliably. Perhaps an extra 8 feet elevation and tweaking the azimuth slightly will cure that.

The elevation according to my iPhone compass is 9 degrees, pointed just above some distant trees. I wonder if a slightly higher elevation would collect more signal?

[Flint Ridge]

Given the strength of everything else above it, I would work my aim based on the KIRO and yes the elevation may very well help your situation.

Have to say KING KONG - what a marketing plan there.

[GroundUrMast]

As long as you have the PCT amp in hand, experiment with it located close to the antenna. Amplifiers are only able to overcome the effects of loss in cable and splitters that are connected to the output of the amplifier. (No amplifier 'pulls' signal from the antenna or air. An amplifier can only 'push' signal down the line.)

[kenj66]

KING KONG call letters here have always been amusing.
KIRO (39) is THE final prize in this installation.
I suppose the PCT amp could be hung off the antenna tilt bracket since it is designed for outdoor use although it requires another piece of coax for supplying power - 50 feet in this case. I am hoping with the extra elevation I won't need it at all.

The XG91 is supplied with a dandy elevation-tilt clamp. I have it set now at 9 degrees, pointing just above some trees in the distance. I recall studying RF propagation called "scatter" and I think that is exactly what this antenna is trying to collect. Has anyone experimented with varying amounts of tilt? Would pointing it higher in the sky be better?

My late-model Vizio TV in the living room displays without stuttering video/audio but my 2007 Emerson (Funai Electric) in the bedroom stutters even with strong signals. That leads me to believe the OTA tuner is poor.

[GroundUrMast]

Generally, you'll find that aiming at the ridge line of the obstructing terrain will be the best tilt setting. If you were after DX signals that were skipping off the upper layers of the atmosphere, a slightly higher tilt angle might be useful. But KIRO is a local signal and very unlikely to bounce a useful signal off the upper layers of atmosphere. The angle would be too steep.

An option for powering the PCT amp remotely with no need for a second coax run: http://www.amazon.com/PCT-Inserter-MPI-1G-Remote-Amplifers/dp/B005Y12UH6/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1404408155&sr=1-1&keywords=pct+power+inserter

http://www.pctstore.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/pct-bema-xx%20and%20pct-ma-b_instruction%20sheet.pdf

Yeah, there can be a wide variation in performance between tuners...

[kenj66]

Thanks for the advice regarding the elevation tilt setting. Sounds right.

Checked my PCT installation guide and, sure enough, option 2 provides for remote power! Thanks for pointing this out. I had forgotten about that.

I used to write technical procedures in my working days. I wonder if there would be interest in my writing an improved assembly and installation for the XG91? Perhaps the occasional amateur builder would find it useful.

[ADTech]

I used to give our new hires a 91XG to assemble using only the instructions that come with it. If they put it together successfully, they were ready to help customers!

It's unlikely that the old instructions will be re-written any time soon, if at all. The 91XG is such a tiny, tiny slice of our gross sales that we still have plenty of inventory from our last production run a while back. I don't know if, when the time comes, we'll have another run of them or if management will do something different.

[kenj66]

Thanks for the reply, ADTech. I was thinking of posting here in the appropriate forum. Some of us are not mechanical geniuses! For example:

Step 1.) When I assembled the boom I noticed the boom wasn't straight. Scratching head, I noticed that I had pushed the boom ends into the matching clamp but the screw head was UNDER the clamp instead of on top. A line ought to be added saying, "Be sure the screw heads appear on top of the clamp instead of underneath." I was simply following the directions! They didn't say to untighten the clamp first so the screw head would be on top. It never occurred to me. Did I mention I was not a mechanical genius?

Step 2.) Place the balun box - which way? In which hole?
I didn't notice the thumb screw in the materials when I did this and instead, undid the screw and wingnut from the end of the boom, discarded the wingnut and attached the balun box with that screw - backwards, as it later turns out.

After stumbling with these instructions, trial and error, it seems to me the assembly steps are out of order. I think the order should be steps 1, 4, 3, 2, 5,6.

It makes more sense to do step 4 after step 1 because the instructions do not tell you exactly where the tilt bracket should be installed. The location of the tilt bracket can only be properly determined after all the directors are installed. And then the orientation of the balun box becomes more obvious, too.

Just got my mast sections. Need to go to Rad Shack for some guy wire hardware.

[Pete Higgins]

kenj66,

I also live in the shadow of a mountain. My mountain is 3.5 miles from my house and is home to 1 full power UHF TV station and several high powered FM stations (plus numerous other communication services). I have to point my antennas right at those stations to get the 1 & 2 Edge LA stations 58 miles away. I have found two amplifiers that don’t show pronounced overload under these conditions. The first type is a PCT MA2-M + 15 dB cable drop amp. which is smaller but similar to what you already have (without the variable gain feature). These are ideal in mixed strong/weak signal environments because they are designed to work with the typically much stronger cable TV signals. I mount mine right at the antenna, and tape the connector's with electrical tape to whether proof the connections. I’ve had one tie wrapped to a pushup mast for 3 years and it’s performed flawlessly.

The other one is the RCA TVPRAMP1R that GroundUrMast recommended. They are cheap (<$25.00), have switchable dual inputs for combination or separate VHF/UHF antennas and also have a switchable FM trap to reduce overloading by FM stations.

Here is a link to my TV Fool report for comparison:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1dda169109ca5c

Since you already have it, I would definitely recommend using the PCT MA-B1015-1A-VG @ your antenna.


When you get your antenna all setup check out this link:

http://www.highdefforum.com/local-hdtv-info-reception/143795-inexpensive-software-defined-radio-spectrum-analyzer-10-00-a.html

I bought one of the RTL2832U + R820T DVB-T Software Defined Radio (SDR) USB Tuner cards (for $8.72 from China) just after the first of the year and had so much fun with it that I bought two more (a pair & a spare?). They tune from ~22 MHz to 1.7 GHz and mine works really well just hooked to my TV antennas through a splitter. I use a free open source wide-band spectrum analyzer software program with it called RTLSDR Scanner. It has proven invaluable comparing different antenna & amplifier configurations. See the attached for a low res version of what it can do.

Even more fun is a program called SDR# (read SDR Sharp). This application also offers a Spectrum Analyzer display but additionally, can produce a Waterfall display or can simultaneously display both. When you see a signal on the FFT you can click on it, automatically tuning to it and opening the audio channel. It also lets you store frequencies (in groups) for later recall. I’ve already created groups for FM Broadcast, Weather Radio, VHF & UHF Air bands (I live 4 miles from March ARB), 10 Meter Ham band and 6 Meter, 2 Meter 220 and 440 MHz Amateur repeaters. This amazing program also demodulates CW, AM (including DSB, LSB & USB) and both Wide (FM broadcast) and Narrow band FM (police, fire & Amateur radio).

I use it all the time for listening to FM radio on my computer.

[kenj66]

Hi Pete,

I read your thread on High Def Forum. Fascinating stuff. At one time in my life I would have jumped on a project like this. However, you mentioned that the dongle and software were not really suitable for real-time tuning in TV signals. In fact I read where the complete sweep took almost 7 minutes. Unless the sweep could be tuned to one carrier and thereby sped up, I don't see the utility in the SDR dongle. Some of the unique tuner devices available these days seem more promising.

Thank you for sharing your experience with TV preamps. I tried that PCT preamp with my Monoprice HDA-5700 and it made absolutely no difference. I always thought an amplifier was an amplifier - makes any signal bigger. Not so with these beasts.

I just got back from Rad Shack and - guess what? They don't carry much antenna hardware anymore! Who knew? If I had known that I would have ordered what I needed last week. They suggested Lowes Hardware. The associate at Lowes looked at me funny and asked, "Your putting up an antenna?!" I found some over priced hardware but no turnbuckles. I found wire suitable for guying but they wanted 26 cents/foot!! Looks like the antenna raising will have to wait a few more days. BTW, Lowes had a half dozen 4 1/2 foot mast sections, just like the ones I ordered. They were only 76 cents more and I wouldn't have had to pay the outrageous shipping price. The guy helping me hadn't even noticed they were carried!

[Pete Higgins]

kenj66,

7 minutes is to scan from 470 MHz (channel 14) to 700 MHz just 2 MHz above channel 51. Narrower ranges take less time.

Some of the unique tuner devices available these days seem more promising.

I agree. The utility is in being able to capture a snapshot of the entire spectrum and compare it to another snapshot of the same chunk of spectrum. I often do this when I'm comparing two antennas or two different amplifiers.

Try Home Depot & Walmart for local. I’m using Home Depot's turnbuckles and RG-6.

3/8 in. x 10-1/2 in. Zinc-Plated Turnbuckle Hook/Eye
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-3-8-in-x-10-1-2-in-Zinc-Plated-Turnbuckle-Hook-Eye-10086/202183408 (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-3-8-in-x-10-1-2-in-Zinc-Plated-Turnbuckle-Hook-Eye-10086/202183408)

1/8 in. x 50 ft. Galvanized Uncoated Wire Rope
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-8-in-x-50-ft-Galvanized-Uncoated-Wire-Rope-13060/202048206 (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-8-in-x-50-ft-Galvanized-Uncoated-Wire-Rope-13060/202048206)

500 ft. RG6 18 AWG Coaxial Black Cable
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-500-ft-RG6-18-AWG-Coaxial-Black-Cable-56918245/202316478 (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-500-ft-RG6-18-AWG-Coaxial-Black-Cable-56918245/202316478)

RCA Antenna Pre-Amplifier
http://www.walmart.com/ip/RCA-Antenna-Pre-Amplifier/14554631 (http://www.walmart.com/ip/RCA-Antenna-Pre-Amplifier/14554631)


This is a company I can recommend for mail order.
Channel Master CM3084 Wire Guy Galvanized Steel 100 FT
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=CM3084&ss=205721

Best to plan everything you need and order in one shipment or the shipping will kill you. Good luck and let us know how everything works out.

[kenj66]

Very helpful, Pete. I was able to get the remaining hardware from Home Depot and Lowes. I'm hoping to get the XG91 in the air this afternoon.

[kenj66]

Well, I didn't get the XG91 up yesterday. Seems folks wanted to watch fireworks. :)

I have a couple of questions.
The XG91 is supplied with a dandy clamp which allows for a tilt adjustment. The clamp is attached to the tilt bracket. The photos show the mast extending up, past the boom, yet there was no clamp provided to attach the boom to the mast. Should I find a mast clamp for the boom or is this simply not necessary? It seems like it would make the antenna stronger against the elements. On the other hand, attaching the tilt bracket clamp at the top of the boom would give me 5 or six inches more elevation. Here is a photo:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxYAW8HezI5sSWdnSXFFTE9pdzg/edit?usp=sharing

What is this? It was supplied with the antenna kit.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxYAW8HezI5sNVRQMm1QN2JJZE0/edit?usp=sharing

Obviously, it is a weather boot. However, I have never seen one with no opening for the cable!

[ADTech]

One of these days, I'll see if the web guy can Photoshop that mast section out of the photos.

Attach the tilt bracket assembly to the U-support only at or near the center of gravity. Avoid extending the mast through the space occupied by the directors.

[Pete Higgins]

kenj66,

We went to my oldest son’s house yesterday for a BBQ & to watch fireworks. He’s retired also and it’s neat to finally be able to get together without day-off planning.

Should I find a mast clamp for the boom or is this simply not necessary?
My single 91XG stayed mounted to the top of my mast for a couple of years without any problem. I had it tilted up slightly to point at the visual horizon (the top of Box Springs mtn.) When I added my second 91XG below the first, the mast just passed through the single clamp, alongside the boom and extended up to the clamp on the top one. The top 91XG boom sat an inch or two above the mast. So, "simply not necessary".


...attaching the tilt bracket clamp at the top of the boom would give me 5 or six inches more elevation.

Yep, and that’s the way I’d do it, although I doubt the extra inches would make a measurable difference. That method does minimize degrading mast to director element interaction.


I have never seen one with no opening for the cable!

I’ve seen two, and they both came with my 91XG’s. I used an xacto knife to slice the end off so the opening was slightly smaller than my RG-6 to give it a snug fit and then installed the compression connector. If you’re using cable that already has the ends installed, I’d just attach one end to the antenna and wrap the connection with electrical tape to weather proof it. I start from an inch down the coax, overlapping wraps and continue up until I’ve covered the balun molded plastic extrusion. Then I generally pull a tie wrap tight over the electrical tape to keep the top wrap from unwrapping.

[kenj66]

Thanks again, ADTech. That tilt bracket mast clamp is a good design. I will move it to the very top of my new mast, gaining a few more inches height.

I knew enough that the array mounting ought to be balanced and I initially tried to mount the U-support so it was evenly placed about the balance point but there isn't enough room for the rear clamp until the space between the 5th and 6th director. However, attaching there causes interference with the forward clamp so the rear clamp must be moved to between the 6th and 7th director. In order to discover this all the directors really need to be mounted to the boom first.

Since the U-support now is not centered for weight distribution the dandy mast clamp must be adjusted further back on the U-support, which can be done simply by holding the completed array upside down by the U-support until the weight balances in your hand. I would point out that the photos in the instructions show the mast clamp attached to the center of the U-support.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxYAW8HezI5sQzNkbm9nb2JBamc/edit?usp=sharing

Also, the photo with the inset saying, "Attach cable here" appears to be incorrect. My balun box has the cable connection facing down and the rubber weather boot, without rear hole, was loose in the bag. So the caption surrounding the photo is rather misleading. The balon box also has clips on the side, which made me wonder if something was missing from my kit of parts.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxYAW8HezI5sUHZ6M19fQWV0V0E/edit?usp=sharing

My new 4 1/2 foot long mast sections are RCA branded and are carried by Lowes and Walmart. I didn't realize when I ordered them they were bright gold! My wife is not greatly impressed by this exotic array on our roof and all the others roofs are "clean" from such eye-catchers since most have cable
TV. But GOLD?! Sigh.

@Pete. More advice, thanks!

A stacked array of XG91s - wow! I'll bet the directivity is superb.

About 10 years ago I self-installed my own Dish Network system. Back in the day, Rad Shack carried all sorts of antennas and accessories, tools and so on. I got from them some tape designed for sealing connectors from the elements. It was rubbery and you would stretch it as you wound it around the connector, making an excellent seal. It worked very well. I must see if I can find a source for it.

EDIT: I found it! Scotch Professional Mastic Electrical Tape. (http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=518224-98-50727-BA-5&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=50014064&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1) This stuff is wonderful for weather securing F-connectors.

BTW, I have been fiddling with the array - not at full height. I raised the mast briefly to full height and noticed that the tilt angle (9 degrees) seemed higher than necessary. I am not a mechanical genius - and not a math wizz either. So, raising my mast 5 feet higher it seems I should reduce the tilt angle, yes? I don't understand why this is so. :confused:
Here is photo of the tilt angle with array just above roof level:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxYAW8HezI5sN2FDOVlncU8wWWc/edit?usp=sharing

[ADTech]

Yeah, the instruction sheet is somewhere between 6 and 9 years old and hasn't been updated in the meantime to reflect the changed balun (or anything else). We just don't sell enough of them to justify investing more time and money at the moment in a legacy product.

For the weather boot, nip the tip, slid it on the bare coax, then install the compression fitting.

[kenj66]

I must say, the 6-9 year old design is impressive. I have never worked with a high-performance, deep-fringe antenna before and I will add my recommendation to those already posted in this forum. I got all but one of the desired network affiliates in Seattle and the in-line amp snapped that right in. Lots of bonus channels, too. :D

[kenj66]

Yikes! :eek: Where do I mount that PCT pre-amp? Hadn't thought about that yet. Before hoisting the antenna I better figure that out. Is there a section in the forum where that has been covered already?

Edit: I think I will put in about 12 feet of coax from the antenna and mount the PCT under the eaves. That will solve the problem and provide much improved weather protection for it. :)

[Pete Higgins]

kenj66,

As GroundUrMast alluded to in post 19, it is better to keep an amplifier as close to the antenna as is practically possible. The reason is that for a given antenna and location the best signal exists at the antenna terminals. Everything beyond that degrades the received signal (connectors ~.05 dB ea., coax (depends on frequency & length), splitters ~3.5 dB for a two way, ~7 dB for a 4-way etc.). Once the signal is lost, nothing can restore it. The idea behind using an amplifier is to take the cleanest signal possible and amplify it up before it is degraded by traveling through your distribution system. The amplifier compensates (or more than compensates) for the distribution losses. So as not to sound too negative, however, no matter where you put the amplifier, it will accept whatever quality signal exists at that point and alleviate loss beyond that point in your distribution system.

As I already mentioned, cable loss in coaxial cable increases with both frequency and run length. Channel 14 starts @ 470 MHz and the high frequency edge of channel 51 is at 698 MHz. To give you a feel for the difference in performance I compared the losses between mounting the amp very near the antenna using a 3’ section and further down using a 12’ length. I also thru in a 38’ length of coax with 3 dB loss @ 698 MHz because most people are familiar with 3 dB doubling the signal and -3 dB halving the signal.

Cable loss in typical RG-6 with connectors:
3’ @ 470 MHz (Ch. 14) = .2 dB ~= 5% or you retain 95 % of your antenna terminal signal
3’ @ 698 MHz (Ch. 51) = .3dB~= 7% or you retain 93 % of your antenna terminal signal

12’ @ 470 MHz (Ch. 14) = .8 dB~= 17% or you retain 83 % of your antenna terminal signal
12’ @ 698 MHz (Ch. 51) = 1.0 dB~= 21% or you retain 79 % of your antenna terminal signal

38’ @ 470 MHz (Ch. 14) = 2.4 dB~= 42% or you retain 58 % of your antenna terminal signal
38’ @ 698 MHz (Ch. 51) = 3.0 dB~= 50% or you retain 50 % of your antenna terminal signal

If your signals are strong enough, the extra .6-.7 dB loss won’t make any difference. If you’re near the “digital cliff” on some channels it may make all the difference in the world.

Here is an example of how I mounted my smaller PCT MA2-M’s to my 91XG's:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4AMQ-XFdvLXUFQ5TVhfNEd3V2s/edit?usp=docslist_api

[kenj66]

Hey, Pete. Clever mount, using a male to male barrel connector. However, I would be concerned how to keep the balun box from breaking under stress. Side winds would be a consideration. Some interference with the director, reflector efficiency also seems involved.

I had considered drilling a couple of holes in the U-support and mounting there but weighing the tradeoffs I like getting the preamp out of the weather. I got all desired channels and then some without using the preamp and CBS on channel 39 comes in with it. So, I like that option best. Thanks for calculating the various losses!

Now I'm waiting for the PCT remote power inserter to come.
BTW, setting up the guy wires is a pain. In hind sight this array works so darn well I wish I had settled for just one 4 1/2 mast section which would not have required the guys.

BTW, I was wondering why everyone here but me refers to the Antennas Direct model as 91XG. The AD website refers to it as such. However, the instruction sheet I got says, in more than one place, XG91. I guess nomenclature has changed in 6-9 years.

[Pete Higgins]

kenj66,

We get wind gusts in the 60-70 mph range all the time and in the two years I had the 91XG up with the amp attached that way it was rock solid. As far as interfering, -logic would dictate it did but I couldn’t see any difference in performance between it mounted that way or tie wrapped to the lower support bracket. I did it more for convenience than anything else.

At one time, I actually ran 4 of those little amps., one on my high VHF antenna, one each on my two 91XG’s and a fourth on my Winegard HD6065 10 Element FM Antenna. I just ran a separate power coax & built a mast mounted 15 V power distribution box to power all of them. I couldn’t find a UVSJ to supply power and combine all three in a single coax. The FM antenna had a separate RF run but since I already had power on the mast I powered its amp. the same way.

Why don’t you try mounting the antenna on one mast section without guys? You can always add the second one later if you determine you need it. I’ve had two brand new 4½‘ sections for probably the last 30 years that I thought I might need at some point and have never used. By-the-way, they are gold!

No idea why or when the nomenclature changed. I only got back in to OTA TV in 2010, more as a hobby after I retired than to save on the cable bill. By then they were advertised and talked about as 91XG’s. I did see some posts for XG91’s but thought they were due to dyslexic typing.

Hope you had a great 4th. I know I sure did.

[ADTech]

Our model is the "91XG", the SKU is "UE-MX91" which is the manufacturing facility's designation. The Internet Wayback machine shows that in Dec of '03, it was called the 91XG on our website. https://web.archive.org/web/20031220183806/http://www.antennasdirect.com/LongRangeAntennas.htm

Confused yet? Like I said, the instructions have never been updated since the antenna was added to our line several years before I started here.

[kenj66]

Well, this has been fun. I found a wonderful antenna and it's actually a 91XG. I imagined that once everything was in place I could point it north and see what I could pick up from Vancouver, BC, and point it south and see what I could pick up from Portland. A little DX-ing as we called it in my Ham Radio days. Let's see....... that was perhaps 50 years ago!

I have decided to "cool my jets" as we also used to say, and forgo the more elaborate setup. I have neuropathy in my feet and my wife is quite apprehensive about my climbing around on the roof. So, I have decided to move my eave mount to the back of the house, use a single 4 1/2 foot mast thereby requiring no guy wires. Happily, I get all the stations I wanted using the preamp. The preamp will be mounted under the lower eaves where I can get to it with a modest ladder. I'll use a 25 foot piece of RG-6 quad shield to the amp, 50 feet to the splitter and the entrance to the house. The tradeoffs in this configuration will be just fine.

And, I have met (virtually) some great people! This is very good forum and appreciate the resource. :)

[kenj66]

Alright, my system is mostly done. I'm still waiting for the PCT power inserter so am using a long extension cord and 10 feet of coax to feed power to the PCT preamp.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxYAW8HezI5sUkd3WFZ4SjFtZ0k/edit?usp=sharing

I mounted the preamp under the eaves where I can get at it with a stepladder. Perhaps you will notice the Scotch 2228 moisture sealing electrical tape.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxYAW8HezI5sTXMtTF9nU2U1THc/edit?usp=sharing

I was getting only FOX and ABC but now in addition get NBC, CBS and several "bonus" channels. Momma and me are quite satisfied! Thanks everyone. :D

[Pete Higgins]

Nice job. Glad you’re happy with the outcome. Thanks for reporting back on your success –encouragement for the rest of us.

[kenj66]

Several days ago I received a Mediasonic HomeWorX HW180STB (http://www.amazon.com/Mediasonic-HW180STB-HomeWorx-Converter-Function/dp/B00G5RXM16/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1405802208&sr=1-1&keywords=hw180stb) tuner box from Amazon. The primary use for this box was to replace the poor built-in tuner in my older HDTV. Happily, the HW180STB is not plagued by the signal "stuttering" of the HDTV tuner but has the disadvantage of being somewhat less sensitive to the available channels, rendering the desired CBS affiliate unwatchable. The surprise secondary use for this box is it provides a continuous display of the selected channel signal strength - just what I needed!

In order to fine tune the azimuth of my new antenna I used an old 13 inch analog TV I have been keeping around for editing SDTV video tapes and connected the analog input from that to the tuner box analog output. The built-in digital to analog conversion of the HW180STB displayed HDTV images perfectly on the SDTV! After sunset one evening I set the old set, face up, on my back deck just below the antenna. I was able to fine tune the antenna azimuth to get the very best signal from the CBS station. It was worth 35 bucks just for that. Just press the "Info" button twice to get the signal strength display. BTW, I found that the tilt-elevation of the antenna was very imprecise. Just set set it a couple degrees above any obstructions in the distance and call it good.

The HW180STB has a surprisingly good program guide function. It will pull an entire evening's programming from many of the stations. This is one function I have NEVER seen from a built-in TV tuner.

Honestly, I didn't anticipate a great deal of functionality from such an inexpensive device. The companion model HW150STB has a PVR function which can use your USB storage devices for saving programs. I am sufficiently happy with this device to say that I should have spent just a few dollars more to get that model.

[kenj66]

I am still having problems with my desired and most difficult station, KIRO 7.1 UHF 39. It has the most "bounce" or variation of any of the stations in my area. Sometimes it is stable enough to watch a program with only minor dropouts but at other times it drops out completely for several seconds at a time - and then comes back with perfect reception for a while. This condition is tolerable until we find something more important to watch such as the recent Seattle Seafair hydroplane races with appearances of the Navy Blue Angels jets performing. The stuttering signals were most annoying!

I moved my PCT preamp and attached it directly to the AD 91XG balun box just like Pete Higgins showed me to do. This put the preamp 25 feet closer to the antenna. Unfortunately, this did not show any better performance. My preamp is the PCT-MA-B1015-1A and it is bigger than Pete's so it didn't quite fit squarely with the antenna's boom.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxYAW8HezI5sRERpUHA2Y2NCc0k/edit?usp=sharing

As a solution I am wondering if the Winguard 7777 or the RCA unit suggested here on the forum would work better since the gain looks to be 8 to 10 db better than the PCT? Could I just put a 75 ohm termination on the VHF input and have it do the job?

[GroundUrMast]

I would expect the CM-7777 would be overloaded due to the powerful signals from Gold Mt. (KCPQ, KTBW & various FM stations). The TVPRAMP1R may have slightly better noise performance, but not enough to make me believe that you would see a noticeable improvement in signal quality as compared to the PCT amp.

I believe that your problem is not primarily one of raw signal strength... But rather an issue of quality. Just as a water pump can not make dirty water clean when it increases the pressure, an amplifier amplifies both the signal and any interference received by the antenna.

I believe you'll have better success experimenting with antenna location and/or elevation.

[kenj66]

OK neighbor, thanks for the advice. Since Seafair Sunday the signal has settled down with just a few pixel breakups from time to time. Perhaps the airplane and helicopter traffic covering the races contributed to the mess that day.

I seem to be right under the flyway for SeaTac jetliners headed to Hawaii and I am pleasantly surprised I don't notice more fluttering signals from those.

[teleview]

+=>

Wikipedia is showing that one of the Repeater/translator stations of KIRO is K26IC-D , Real current UHF channel 26.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIRO-TV

The transmitter is in the opposite direction at about 275 degree magnetic compass direction.

To Test for reception.

Aim the XG91 antenna at about 275 degree magnetic compass direction.

-------------------------------------------

Here is how to aim antennas.

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

Use a Real and Actual magnetic compass to aim antenna , do not trust a , cell phone , tablet and etc. compass.

------------------------------------------

Rescan for channels.

Also , Digital Tuners can develop - Digital Glitches - that are not cleared out with simple channel scans.

To clear tuner do Double Rescan.

http://www.wchstv.comDoubleReScanAlert.pdf.

-----------------------

If reception of K26IC-D is received OK.

Then leave the XG91 aimed at K26IC-D.

The reception of K26IC-D Will Be a Separate Antenna System known as antenna system #2.

-----------------------

Antenna system #2 and antenna system #1 , are No Connected Together.

-----------------------

Antenna system #1.

Install a.

http://www.channelmasterstore.com.

CM4228HD antenna aimed at about 75 degree magnetic compass direction.

Connect a , CM7778 preamplifier.

----------------------

Here are some Tuner/Tuner Recorders that connect to the antenna system and Tv.

http://www.epvision.com.

----------------------

As always , trees and tree leaves , plants and plant leaves , have a Negative Effect on Broadcast Tv Reception and so do buildings and other obstructions including your own , attic , roof , building , in the directions of reception , East North East , South , South West , West.

Some and not all Negative Effects are.

Absorbing Blocking Reception.

Multi-Path Reflecting Tv Signals Bouncing All Around.

The Best Practice for Reliable Reception is to install antennas at a location that has the least amount to no amount of obstructions of any type or kind in the directions of reception including your own , attic , roof , building.

----------------------

As a Test to prove reception of antenna system #2 and antenna system#1 , connect a New continues length coax and run the coax through a open door or window direct to Tv.

Remember antenna systems #2 and #1 are not connected together.

----------------------

Here are some antenna mounts that will get the antenna/s up higher.

http://www.ronard.com/909911.html. Install the , ronard(911) , 5 foot tripod antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/712.html. Install the , ronard(712-50-10) , 10 foot tripod antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html. Measure around the chimney and use a , ronard(2212) , ronard(2218) , ronard(2224).

http://www.ronard.com.

-----

http://www.palcoelectronics.com/pe300.aspx.

Light weight aluminum , Free standing , No guy wire , Lay over towers.

[kenj66]

After three months living with this antenna system I find myself dissatisfied/disappointed and I am reconsidering the advice from 'teleview.' Channel 7 (39) is seldom watchable since it breaks up all the time. In addition all the other channels experience momentary signal breakup which I have suspected all along as being from signal overload coming from channel 13 which is only five miles away.

Although the summer weather has long departed I will swing my 91 XG around toward the Silverdale channel 7 (26) repeater and see how it goes for a few days. That repeater looks to be only 3 miles away so a deep fringe antenna seems like a waste but - since I have it........ :o

@teleview you recommended a 8 bay bow tie antenna, the CM4228HD, and I am wondering why. I like the Wineguard HD7698P since it seems like a more aggressive design for deep fringe and it would have the advantage of greater directivity, which would discriminate against my channel 13 interference. I do recall reading an experienced poster recently who claimed that these deep fringe antennas need more surface area to overcome signal dropout problems. If that is true perhaps I would consider the change to bow tie since the Wineguard is more expensive and the boom is 14 feet long! :eek:

Ken

Edit: Well, it only took a couple of hours. I removed the PCT line amplifier, swung the beam around and locked on channel 7 transmitting on real channel 26 in Silverdale, Washington - 100 percent. A 91XG three miles away ought to lock in solid! So, I now can acquire a new high-vhf/uhf main antenna. Is it bow tie or yagii :confused:

[kenj66]

(I will describe all channels as real)

1. Dissatisfied with channel 39 CBS reception out of Seattle and
2. Being told my PCT amplifier was not a true TV preamp

I purchase a second antenna, a 42XG, which I pointed toward the CBS repeater on channel 26 in Silverdale, WA, about three miles away. I also purchased a combiner/preamp, an RCA TVPRAMP1R, from Walmart for 22 dollars.

This combination runs circles around the previous setup! The TVPRAMP1R works so much better that, including sub-channels, I now get 12 more channels! Except for occasional 1Edge and 2Edge dropouts almost all stations are 100 percent. Now I am much happier.

Ken :D

[GroundUrMast]

Thanks for the update.

So do you still have the 91XG aimed at Seattle?

[kenj66]

Thanks for the update.

So do you still have the 91XG aimed at Seattle?Hi neighbor!
Yes, the 91XG is still pointed toward Queen Anne Hill. My little four and a half foot mast looks like I have a communications center!

Ken :)

[kenj66]

1. I used Scotch sealer tape to waterproof my RG-6 connectors. In the repeated process of tweaking the antennas I had to cut off the sealer tape with a razor knife and reapply when done. Apparently, while adding and removing the tape I managed to break something inside the balun box for the 91XG. After testing to make sure this was the ailment I contacted Antennas Direct on their website. The AD rep sent a new balun/director assembly gratis! Great business and people! :) The great reception of the awesome 91XG antenna has been restored!
-----> I DECIDED NOT TO SEAL MY CONNECTORS NOW.
-----> Antenna Direct is a great outfit to do business with!

2. I had previously complained that KIRO channel 7(39) Seattle was prone to weak signal breakup. While troubleshooting my antenna problems I decided to replace the RCA preamp with a Channel Master 7777. It is three times the cost of an RCA but but KIRO comes in 100 percent now in this 2edge reception area. The local channel interference from FOX 13 I was warned about has not been a problem.
-----> CHANNEL MASTER 7777 PREAMP HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.
(It looks like this is the only high gain preamp being sold now).

Ken :)

[Tim]

-----> I DECIDED NOT TO SEAL MY CONNECTORS NOW.


Even with compression connectors I recommend that any connectors outdoors be sealed against moisture intrusion. A gradual ingress of water into the connector will seep into the coaxial shield and be wicked up the cable and will eventually cause signal degradation which can be difficult to diagnose. I use self fusing silicone tape available at your local big box home improvement store to seal my outdoor antenna connections.

[rickbb]

Even with compression connectors I recommend that any connectors outdoors be sealed against moisture intrusion. A gradual ingress of water into the connector will seep into the coaxial shield and be wicked up the cable and will eventually cause signal degradation which can be difficult to diagnose. I use self fusing silicone tape available at your local big box home improvement store to seal my outdoor antenna connections.

I use a spray can of white lithium grease and put a light coating on the connectors. Seems to work well to keep water out and the connectors can be undone easily. WD 40 and the like will dry out quickly, you need a thick grease that will hang around under the sun, wind and rain.

[kenj66]

Thanks for the warning and recommendations, guys.

Tim, perhaps there is a better sealing tape to use. I used the Scotch one inch wide Professional Grade #2228 Moisture Sealing Electrical Tape. It definitely is up to the job! Trouble is I have to razor knife the tape and reef on it hard to get the stuff to come off.

rickbb, I have used dark lithium grease for trailer hitches which works very well but it is a substance you don't want to get on your clothes! I have never heard of white lithium grease, especially in a spray form. What happens if you need to service or just tweak the antennas? You said the connectors can be undone easily - but are they really re-usable?

Ken :)

[Tim]

Tim, perhaps there is a better sealing tape to use. I used the Scotch one inch wide Professional Grade #2228 Moisture Sealing Electrical Tape. It definitely is up to the job! Trouble is I have to razor knife the tape and reef on it hard to get the stuff to come off.



The silicone fusing tape I recommended is easy to remove as it has no adhesive. You apply it like tape and it sticks to itself. Over a couple of days time it fuses into one solid coating of silicone rubber. You can slit it lightly with a razor and it peels off easily.

My neighbor (an auto mechanic) had good success waterproofing his antenna connections with Permatex Dielectric Tune-Up Grease that is available at many auto parts stores.

[kenj66]

Thanks for the tips Tim. I'm going to check them out.

Ken :)